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Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread

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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1761 » by DuckIII » Thu Apr 8, 2021 1:56 am

PaKii, here is where I split from Lauri’s more dedicated supporters. We see the same basic things, but you see Lauri’s passiveness as a product of circumstances beyond his control. Not entirely, in your case, because you made it clear you out at least some of it on Lauri.

But I view them as completely his own issues. In my view, up until the Vuc trade, the Bulls gave Lauri every opportunity to make his own destiny. And he hasn’t made it happen.

I see the same thing with Patrick Lee Williams (though athletically he’s a superior prospect to Lauri). It’s all on him.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1762 » by Leslie Forman » Thu Apr 8, 2021 2:05 am

DuckIII wrote:
Wingy wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:Lauri played well last night. Hopefully that kick isn’t something that will set him back again.


Shots went in, so that's of course great, but I thought his activity was excellent vs. other recent games. Cutting, and moving w/o the ball, energized. If we had that guy consistently, he's probably already resigned.


Spot on. The version of Lauri that played last night? We’ve seen him before. Off and on for years. That’s what makes him so damn frustrating. Because that version is clearly a plus value player. It’s hard to understand why he so rarely comes out that way. I don’t get it.

It's pretty simple with all these players who people always think just need "more plays" and always refer back to some little hot streak as if that's who they really are.

They are straight line thinkers reliant on everyone else to do the dirty work. They are able to take advantage of clear paths to a bucket, but they are not guys who can go and create something out of nothing. There's no go-to move, no high level ballhandling to rely on, no defense/intangibles game to fall back on when the shot isn't going in. They aren't guys who ever impose their will in a game with their activity. In a heavilly planned and scouted playoff series, these guys are the ones that always let you down.

They aren't completely untalented, which is why they might just randomly fart out a few good games some time against opponents that just didn't care at all about gameplanning against them, or maybe they were just feeling it, or maybe the other team was just missing its dudes and playing on a back-to-back, who knows.

After seven seasons, this is still basically the Andrew Wiggins experience. It was not that long ago that Warrior fans were talking like he was some changed man who suddenly "got it." No, he's just the same low IQ, low motor, hot and (mostly) cold player he always has been.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1763 » by DuckIII » Thu Apr 8, 2021 2:13 am

Leslie Forman wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
Wingy wrote:
Shots went in, so that's of course great, but I thought his activity was excellent vs. other recent games. Cutting, and moving w/o the ball, energized. If we had that guy consistently, he's probably already resigned.


Spot on. The version of Lauri that played last night? We’ve seen him before. Off and on for years. That’s what makes him so damn frustrating. Because that version is clearly a plus value player. It’s hard to understand why he so rarely comes out that way. I don’t get it.

It's pretty simple with all these players who people always think just need "more plays" and always refer back to some little hot streak as if that's who they really are.

They are straight line thinkers reliant on everyone else to do the dirty work. They are able to take advantage of clear paths to a bucket, but they are not guys who can go and create something out of nothing. There's no go-to move, no high level ballhandling to rely on, no defense/intangibles game to fall back on when the shot isn't going in. They aren't guys who ever impose their will in a game with their activity. In a heavilly planned and scouted playoff series, these guys are the ones that always let you down.

They aren't completely untalented, which is why they might just randomly fart out a few good games some time against opponents that just didn't care at all about gameplanning against them, or maybe they were just feeling it, or maybe the other team was just missing its dudes and playing on a back-to-back, who knows.

After seven seasons, this is still basically the Andrew Wiggins experience. It was not that long ago that Warrior fans were talking like he was some changed man who suddenly "got it." No, he's just the same low IQ, low motor, hot and (mostly) cold player he always has been.


I don’t think it’s as simple as just being fortunate in some games when the Red Sea parts. I do think it’s more about a mindset. I’m not even talking about Lauri being effective. I’m talking about how he sometimes plays physical with aggression and the rest of the time he’s a fly on the wall.

He can be much better than he is, even with his physical/skill limitations. He just doesn’t do it. Ultimately the reason why it’s that way doesn’t even matter I guess.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1764 » by League Circles » Thu Apr 8, 2021 2:19 am

I always assumed at some point Lauri would be super aggressive and effective at shooting all sorts of jumpers in guys faces right over them, but it's never materialized. He's decent when he gets aggressive to drive and in open catch and shoot situations. Not much more. Might have to keep him anyway sadly, I doubt we can get a better player in FA though I'm ignorant of the salary cap details right now.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1765 » by DuckIII » Thu Apr 8, 2021 2:25 am

League Circles wrote:I always assumed at some point Lauri would be super aggressive and effective at shooting all sorts of jumpers in guys faces right over them, but it's never materialized. He's decent when he gets aggressive to drive and in open catch and shoot situations. Not much more. Might have to keep him anyway sadly, I doubt we can get a better player in FA though I'm ignorant of the salary cap details right now.


There’s a good discussion here on our cap situation and free agency:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2067522
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1766 » by Leslie Forman » Thu Apr 8, 2021 2:35 am

DuckIII wrote:I don’t think it’s as simple as just being fortunate in some games when the Red Sea parts. I do think it’s more about a mindset. I’m not even talking about Lauri being effective. I’m talking about how he sometimes plays physical with aggression and the rest of the time he’s a fly on the wall.

He can be much better than he is, even with his physical/skill limitations. He just doesn’t do it. Ultimately the reason why it’s that way doesn’t even matter I guess.

It's not about having the seas part in front of you, it's about having simple situations that are easier to process in front of you. Lauri shines when it's very clear situations like "oh hey a 6'3" guy is guarding you, you know what to do." Just throw him the ball in isolation against someone who can actually defend him? That's asking for a lot for a guy who's only real strengths are shooting 3s and straight line driving to the rim with a long runway.

When a team is actually preventing those mismatches, clogging the lane, switching effectively, this confuses Markkanen and makes him the "passive" player everyone complains about. He just doesn't know how to process ways to create or have the skills to overcome tough situations (little of both, chicken and egg, doesn't really matter).

It's no different from when you play a pickup game and the guys you're up against aren't necessarily any more talented than most other teams you've played against, but they just know how to play together better. They are able to frustrate you and get you to be more passive just through better defensive schemes, better off-ball activity, better recovery.

Anyone who's played someone better than them knows the feeling. You didn't suddenly become worse in a day. You just went up against a team that makes fewer mistakes and leaves fewer opportunities for you to process at your usual processing speed. And you don't have the skillset to suddenly change the way you play.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1767 » by WindyCityBorn » Thu Apr 8, 2021 2:47 am

Leslie Forman wrote:
DuckIII wrote:I don’t think it’s as simple as just being fortunate in some games when the Red Sea parts. I do think it’s more about a mindset. I’m not even talking about Lauri being effective. I’m talking about how he sometimes plays physical with aggression and the rest of the time he’s a fly on the wall.

He can be much better than he is, even with his physical/skill limitations. He just doesn’t do it. Ultimately the reason why it’s that way doesn’t even matter I guess.

It's not about having the seas part in front of you, it's about having simple situations that are easier to process in front of you. Lauri shines when it's very clear situations like "oh hey a 6'3" guy is guarding you, you know what to do." Just throw him the ball in isolation against someone who can actually defend him? That's asking for a lot for a guy who's only real strengths are shooting 3s and straight line driving to the rim with a long runway.

When a team is actually preventing those mismatches, clogging the lane, switching effectively, this confuses Markkanen and makes him the "passive" player everyone complains about. He just doesn't know how to process ways to create or have the skills to overcome tough situations (little of both, chicken and egg, doesn't really matter).

It's no different from when you play a pickup game and the guys you're up against aren't necessarily any more talented than most other teams you've played against, but they just know how to play together better. They are able to frustrate you and get you to be more passive just through better defensive schemes, better off-ball activity, better recovery.

Anyone who's played someone better than them knows the feeling. You didn't suddenly become worse in a day. You just went up against a team that makes fewer mistakes and leaves fewer opportunities for you to process at your usual processing speed. And you don't have the skillset to suddenly change the way you play.


The question is why is his skill set exactly the same as it was when he entered the league?
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1768 » by Leslie Forman » Thu Apr 8, 2021 6:03 am

WindyCityBorn wrote:The question is why is his skill set exactly the same as it was when he entered the league?

:dontknow:

Lack of natural ability, work ethic, basketball IQ, who knows. It's not like he's anything unique. Most players that come into this league don't actually change much from what they are their first few years.

Jimmy Butlers are incredibly rare. Lauri Markkanens, Ben Gordons, Luol Dengs, Eddy Currys, Kirk Hinrichs, Tony Snells, Doug McDermotts, etc. etc. are way more common. That's the majority of the league.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1769 » by sco » Thu Apr 8, 2021 1:25 pm

PaKii94 wrote:I do like the lauri at SF look. I've always advocated for that over lauri at C. It looks less viable now that Lauri's added some lbs and become more ground bound but I still think that could be a matchup problem.

The key thing is again finding the mismatch and forcing the issue. Lauri does try to call for the ball but half the time his teammates look him off and he's content with retreating to the corner. This doesn't do him or the team any good because it makes life easier for the opposing team to guard him with a small (kyrie a few games ago).

Instead they should be reposting and forcing the issue continually until the opposing team adjusts. This is something I think lauri can learn from Vuc. Vuc excels in that regard

Yes on the SF thing. He is much more effective facing the basket...most of his issues come when he tried to post up.

Thinking more about where we are now, Sato is about as good as we're likely to get at PG (unless we get Ball, which, IMO, is looking less likely given our limitations on cap space). Thad's strong play and relationship with Zach probably has him stick around. If we are keeping those 2 guys, then our FA $ dry up to the point where we're only talking about MLE guys. At that point, I (and I generally think this is a bad strategy), but resigning Lauri for <$20M (which now seems possible - although just having him take the QO would be a win) and hoping for improvement or hoping he has future trade value may be our best move.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1770 » by Chi town » Thu Apr 8, 2021 3:26 pm

No way Lauri is back.

I think we get a TPE and a 2nd rounder.

We will resign Theis.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1771 » by sco » Thu Apr 8, 2021 5:06 pm

Chi town wrote:No way Lauri is back.

I think we get a TPE and a 2nd rounder.

We will resign Theis.

Sign me up for that.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1772 » by sami71 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 10:09 pm

WindyCityBorn wrote:The question is why is his skill set exactly the same as it was when he entered the league?


In short - lack of willingness to do what it would have taken. NBA players sacrifice things in their lives to be the best athletes that the planet has ever seen. Some more than others obviously, and some stop sacrificing at some point. But Lauri would have needed to sacrifice much more than many because of the glaring flaws in his basic skills that needed work too. He decided to sacrifice very little instead. Perhaps the bad advice he received contributed to him not acknowledging the flaws. Maybe he was too proud to work on things that should have been worked on in high school. Furthermore he split his focus attention and energy, and as a practical hopefully non flammatory example he spent Summers in Finland instead of training with experts in the US and the Bulls. I always get flamed when I go to further details so there won't be any. Maybe Lauri mistook NBA for NHL and maybe he thought he could afford to do all these things. If so, he was wrong. Maybe he was just really happy to be a starter in NBA, and maybe he thought he had made it.

I am not saying he would have been a star for certain even if he had fully committed to his career, either. But now he will never know because as you said there really has been no notable progress with him. Even the Finnish journalists have stopped making excuses for him.

This is all very harsh. But I happen to think that based on all I know, he is a great guy with a genuinely good personality and a warm heart. All these decisions are his and his wife's to make. It is his life.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1773 » by WindyCityBorn » Fri Apr 9, 2021 12:00 am

sami71 wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:The question is why is his skill set exactly the same as it was when he entered the league?


In short - lack of willingness to do what it would have taken. NBA players sacrifice things in their lives to be the best athletes that the planet has ever seen. Some more than others obviously, and some stop sacrificing at some point. But Lauri would have needed to sacrifice much more than many because of the glaring flaws in his basic skills that needed work too. He decided to sacrifice very little instead. Perhaps the bad advice he received contributed to him not acknowledging the flaws. Maybe he was too proud to work on things that should have been worked on in high school. Furthermore he split his focus attention and energy, and as a practical hopefully non flammatory example he spent Summers in Finland instead of training with experts in the US and the Bulls. I always get flamed when I go to further details so there won't be any. Maybe Lauri mistook NBA for NHL and maybe he thought he could afford to do all these things. If so, he was wrong. Maybe he was just really happy to be a starter in NBA, and maybe he thought he had made it.

I am not saying he would have been a star for certain even if he had fully committed to his career, either. But now he will never know because as you said there really has been no notable progress with him. Even the Finnish journalists have stopped making excuses for him.

This is all very harsh. But I happen to think that based on all I know, he is a great guy with a genuinely good personality and a warm heart. All these decisions are his and his wife's to make. It is his life.


Someone said getting married and having akid would make him soft change priorities . They were right.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1774 » by GrowingHorns » Fri Apr 9, 2021 2:16 am

I hear/read some weird voices... That I disregard

BECAUSE LAURI IS BACK! (u can @ me but I will not respond to anyone, this above is non-debatable FACT)

Whoooooooooo!!!
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1775 » by ZOMG » Fri Apr 9, 2021 7:00 am

Read on Twitter


IMO Donovan and/or AK are making another mistake setting Lauri's bench role in stone like this. Markkanen may well play fantastic basketball the rest of the way - to the point where it will make a lot of sense for the Bulls to retain him - but if he has no hope for a starting spot in the future, he definitely won't sign for any long term deal, never mind a team-friendly one.

I just can't understand why you'd narrow down your options like this if you're AK. Why not just let things play out and solve the bench/starter dilemma in offseason negotiations if it comes to that?
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1776 » by erlim » Fri Apr 9, 2021 8:37 am

WindyCityBorn wrote:
sami71 wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:The question is why is his skill set exactly the same as it was when he entered the league?


In short - lack of willingness to do what it would have taken. NBA players sacrifice things in their lives to be the best athletes that the planet has ever seen. Some more than others obviously, and some stop sacrificing at some point. But Lauri would have needed to sacrifice much more than many because of the glaring flaws in his basic skills that needed work too. He decided to sacrifice very little instead. Perhaps the bad advice he received contributed to him not acknowledging the flaws. Maybe he was too proud to work on things that should have been worked on in high school. Furthermore he split his focus attention and energy, and as a practical hopefully non flammatory example he spent Summers in Finland instead of training with experts in the US and the Bulls. I always get flamed when I go to further details so there won't be any. Maybe Lauri mistook NBA for NHL and maybe he thought he could afford to do all these things. If so, he was wrong. Maybe he was just really happy to be a starter in NBA, and maybe he thought he had made it.

I am not saying he would have been a star for certain even if he had fully committed to his career, either. But now he will never know because as you said there really has been no notable progress with him. Even the Finnish journalists have stopped making excuses for him.

This is all very harsh. But I happen to think that based on all I know, he is a great guy with a genuinely good personality and a warm heart. All these decisions are his and his wife's to make. It is his life.


Someone said getting married and having akid would make him soft change priorities . They were right.


I remember happening to Nocioni too.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1777 » by DuckIII » Fri Apr 9, 2021 11:17 am

ZOMG wrote:
Read on Twitter


IMO Donovan and/or AK are making another mistake setting Lauri's bench role in stone like this. Markkanen may well play fantastic basketball the rest of the way - to the point where it will make a lot of sense for the Bulls to retain him - but if he has no hope for a starting spot in the future, he definitely won't sign for any long term deal, never mind a team-friendly one.

I just can't understand why you'd narrow down your options like this if you're AK. Why not just let things play out and solve the bench/starter dilemma in offseason negotiations if it comes to that?


The Bulls are thinking primarily in the short term right now. And rightly or wrongly they believe Thad starting helps win more games right now. Plus Theis is eating into Lauri’s minutes as well.

If they placed a higher value on Lauri as a critical piece going forward they may balance future more with the present (see Patrick Lee Williams). But apparently they don’t. And it may burn them. But that is what is happening.

I’m not trying to convince you to agree with that strategy. I’m just answering your question about the logic behind it.

Plus, it may not be completely locked it. Denzel went from playing quite a bit recently to a DNP. With the way Lauri played the last few games (physical/aggressive) I would not put it past BD to make a change at some point. He’s a tinkerer.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1778 » by DunkenDunk » Fri Apr 9, 2021 11:32 am

Lauri, Coby and Wendell Carter junior has all been in that way a mentally bad situation that after draft each of them acquired the spot on starting lineup perhaps little too easily. Compared to previous years Lauri has clearly got better in getting contact and still getting the ball in paint. In previous year it was more like a "lets hope the best" shoot but now he actually is controlling the ball and putting it it many ways down under the basket. (earlier the only tools were drunk or dragn lay up)

During Boylen time the team profile was not optimal. Team had too manny wanna be MJ's and even fans seemed to wait Lavine to be that kind of guy who will solve all the problems alone. Most obvious missing peaces were the lack of skilled center and playmaker, while there were 4-5 shooting guards and same amount of power forwards. Clearly only guys able to pass the ball for all 5 players like all winning theams are doing nowadaus seemed to be Thadius Young and Arci.

Therefore the problem with WCJ and Lauri (Both thinked to be power forwards) was solved by expecting both of them to handle also the center role. WCJ did not want to be a Center (and did not have size and skills for that role) but was forced to it while was protesting agains it and that clearly got his numbers down and made him want to leave Bulls. Lauri on the other hand was too skinny for Center role and while gaining more muscles to hands to handle that position his free throw and 3 point shooting numbers seemed to go down, while also getting injured.

Now when Theis and Vucevic are in place the center role has been solved and Theis is also bringing some credibility to defence. But Vucivic and Theis are also 6 year older than Lauri, Coby and WCJ which has still quite many years time to get better. And both seems to do that.

Will same fight against low tide happen next year to PW who is now seen as a exciting first year draft just like WCJ, Coby and Lauri little earlier?
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1779 » by coldfish » Fri Apr 9, 2021 11:38 am

It’s funny but the primary thing Lauri is providing are those quick post ups. Something that your average NBA player isn’t big enough to do. Off ball shooting when you are wide open isn’t a rare trait. There are a legion of players that could shoot a very high percentage from 3 given the looks Lauri is getting. Lauri supporters have always said that others need to create for him and they are right now. Of course, those others could create the same for some journeymen 3/4 just the same.

Lauri still isn’t rebounding, defending or passing much.

Playing like this, he is probably worth a little more than the mle. That said, some team is going to offer more and Lauri will want out due to not starting. Games like yesterday make him leaving for a trade exception more, not less, likely.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread 

Post#1780 » by Hugi Mancura » Fri Apr 9, 2021 11:58 am

Only reason Bulls should keep Lauri is to ruin his career and only reason for Lauri to stay is to ruin his career, so really there no good reasons for either of them to sign for next year. Only way I see Lauri continuing in Bulls is that Bulls matches the offer sheet and Bulls probably would do that. You get more values from him if you match and trade than just let him walk without compensation. So s&t would be best solution for both.

There are teams who find better use for Lauri's skill set and who will give more freedom for him. Hopefully he finds that team.

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