Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread

[PaKii94]

...but he did last year. Also, I think he will be an elite 3 point shooter. He almost already is.

I don't know how he's almost already an elite 3 point shooter. He's 35.6% from his career and has not improved (ever so slightly worse each year in the league. Beyond that he doesn't take a lot of high difficulty threes that would lower his percentages.

I guess I should have put in the qualifier as "elite shooter for a big man" but he's on his way to becoming an elite shooter in general. Ability should be assessed outside of injury play. First year Lauri was very much a streaky shooter but when he was on fire, he was on fire. Last year, coming back from a serious injury to his SHOOTING elbow, he was around 38% until the fatigue stuff happened.

This year it was whatever his problem was earlier (I do think it was some sort of injury) he was bad for 20 games. But he was at 38% for the last 26, 41% until he sprained his ankle.

We really haven't had a full season of assessing Lauri. I am also getting tired about making excuses about injury but it is what it is. Hovering around 38% on high volume is a high level shooter and I expect him to be at that and probably get better with more NBA years.

[MrSparkle]

It looks like the leaks from Lauri's circle are starting to come more often and more directly.

People seem to forget he is a pretty young guy and probably very impressionable... at least for a while. If Mottola and the guys he trusts tell him the Bulls coaches and FO are a bunch of idiots who are wasting his talent--> and all available evidence (the losing, his usage, the schemes) points to that--> yeah, things are only about to get worse, if nothing changes.

Lauri, as soft spoken and self-deprecating as he is, has said two or three times this year, that he has been told to go sit in the corner for most of the game. As soon as they got him moving in one of the last games before he got hurt he said something to the effect of how much he enjoyed getting to move around and NOT just sit in the corner waiting for a kick-out. He had a pretty good game too.

Not to repeat myself, but the O, as designed, was put together for 4 smalls/wings and a pick-setter. Euro offense or whatever you want to call it. As simple as simple gets. That's it. On O it didn't make one of lick of difference schematically if it was Lauri in the corner/elbow 3 or Archi/Val/Sato/Thad/Scrub. In that system, you either handle the ball (which he doesn't any longer), you set the pick (which the Bulls don't do with him because WCJ's guy cheats as is, and would cheat even more if WCJ was to space), or you space and wait for a kick-out where you either pull the trigger immediately for a semi-contested 3 (which Lauri started doing a lot because he can shoot on top of pretty much anybody) or drive (which he has sucked at because he's freakin' 7 feet tall and outside of Giannis, I can't remember any other player that size that has made a living off of driving from 3 with consistency).

There is no place in that offense for him where he can get in rhythm with ANY consistency because as we all know, there are times where he doesn't touch the ball in a place to do something with it apart from handing it off to a guard for an entire quarter. You can see it from low orbit that this O was not designed with him in mind one bit, because an O that relies on your 20/10 7 footer to either quick-trigger it from 3 or go ISO from the 3 point line as his only viable options is idiotic beyond reason. Or how about Jimbo taking him out at the 6 minute mark every game, regardless if he has it going or not and keeping him glued to the bench for 15-20 minutes of time, until the middle of the 2nd quarter. Way to ice a 'shooter', coach!

That system is most definitely not the same as last year, and furthermore, the 3s and layups only rule was just the cherry on the stupid cake because it could only work until an assistant on ANY opposing team points it out and then EVERYBODY with a bit of discipline would play you for that tendency... which is EXACTLY what happened and the Bulls coaches, took 40 games to react to that, ever so slightly.

So yeah, if I were him, I'd also be 'Get your cow manure together, or I'm out'.

This here is the most accurate take imo.

And again, i don’t think Lauri is some all-star being held back. He’s a good player being misused - certainly not a scrub. And struggling really badly - he should be making those open shots, he has the ability to. But 75/5? No way that happens. He’ll get a 20m offer. Might only be 1-2 years guaranteed if he bets on himself.

Redick got 25m/1y. Teams will pay big for a shooter even if it’s a 1y rental. Bulls aren’t gonna get a discount.

He’s been much more consistent and higher-floor than Niko, Doug and Portis. Bobby just got paid 31m/2y. No way Lauri gets less annual salary.

[Tetlak]

The feeling is mutual. I want him out too.

We will most definitely overpay the hell out of that man, because we have a horrible front office.

[Peelboy]

I don't know how anyone can watch the Bulls and say Boylen is doing anything to even give Lauri a chance to develop. And that's the #1 job of a coach in this situation. Yes, it is also true that Lauri could handle it better, that some players can overcome that kind of thing, etc. But more often than not, if you're a young player and your coach doesn't even seem remotely interested in doing what you do well and what maximizes your performance, you're going to struggle - unless maybe you're a Lebron, Zion, etc.

[Jvaughn]

LOL Boylen can gtfo and Paxson can be on the same express bus for supporting this clown.

As a hard critic of Lauri, I feel bad for him now especially putting up 30+ pts and 15+ boards in the season opener.

That is effed up beyond belief. He plays like a superstar that 1st game, and Boylen reprimands him? I would've demanded a trade on the spot.

Yep this is the correct reason and is the only logical explanation why Lauri played like ass after his 1st game.
No player plays this bad after putting 35,17 game and I dont buy fatigue since the season has just begun.
Boylen's entire scheme is built on Lavine which is why if he is having a good game, Lauri is bound to fail.
When the entire team wants you to fail and potentially force you out of the league, MJ crap doesnt matter anymore.

So your assertion is that Lauri is really as good as his first game showed, but that because his feelings were hurt or he's throwing a temper tantrum because he's mad at Boylen that he took the next 45 games to purposely play like pure trash? If he's that mentally soft, the NBA isn't for him.

Also don't buy "the entire team wants him to fail." There's no reason for that. Coaching and management are tied to his success since so much of the team success and the dream they've sold us is tied to Lauri succeeding. The players on the team also aren't going to sabotage him to sacrifice wins. That doesn't gel either.That negatively affects their futures. After the Niko/Bobby feud, players tool Bobby's side and still didn't ice out Niko. He had some of his best playing days after the fight.

I feel like people are searching way too hard to find excuses for Lauri, when the easiest answer is usually the correct one. Lauri didn't play well this year and that can be attributed to lack of effort or trying to play through injury. Either way, if he plays at least solid this year, the Bulls are in the playoff picture. As terrible as we've been already, we're still only a few games out of the 8th seed. He's got to take some accountability. Players played well on this team under Vinny Del Negro. Coaching is important, but a players individual success can't all be blamed on the coach.

[DorO]

The feeling is mutual. I want him out too.

We will most definitely overpay the hell out of that man, because we have a horrible front office.

This.
I want him out and avoid overpaying him. Only 35% from 3 is just not nearly good enough and lol him being elite from 3.

[Lunartic]

First and foremost, we all know the Bulls headcoach is bad, so he should be fired promptly. The players do not like him and his schemes are poor. He has not made a single player pay better or more efficiently. I'm not sure what "value" he brings other than the occasional cringe-worthy post-game presser where he says idiotic platitudes over and over.

Lauri is more important to the Bulls future than the coach. So the coach should go.

Players will always be more important than coaching staff unless you have a top-tier coach and a bottom tier player. Lauri is still young and has shown great offensive promise and solid rebounding. One year of Boylen and suddenly every one of his stats is down. He's scoring less than his rookie year, shooting worse than his two previous years, rebounding fell off a cliff, he's driving the ball way less from previous seasons, it goes on and on.

Unless we are to assume Lauri suddenly became a bad player despite being healthy and young, we need to look at the offensive and defensive schemes of the team.

I implore everyone take a look at his previous two season stats and look at this year's. Somehow Fred Hoiberg was able to get more out a rookie Lauri than Boylen from a 3 year Lauri? Makes zero sense and the blame is squarely at Boylen's feet.

Zach's improvement is despite Boylen and a credit to his own hardwork.

[MikeDC]

An important issue that's not being discussed is WHY Lauri wants out? Is it because of Boylen? Is he tired of losing? Hates the city of Chicago?

First of all, he (still) likes the city of Chicago. Weather is like back home, he and his family has a nice home, the people are nice to him and his family.

What he doesn't like is that Bulls want to make him a meaty center who on offense stands in a corner shooting threes, and on defense runs blitzes on the perimeter. Last summer he spent time with coach Boylen, and he got a different impression of what his role would be.

He doesn't like he was reprimanded in front of the team after the season opener for not sticking to the team plan, taking shots that were agreed to be "forbidden", told that he was glory-hunting instead of playing for the team.

He feels uncomfortable with a couple of his team-mates who seems to dislike him. Apparently being european, not drinking alcohol and not spending time with hookers is bad in their opinion, and Lauri fits all of that. Apologies have been presented and accepted, but it doesn't take away the uncomfortable feeling.

Most importantly, he is extremely disappointed at himself that during his time with the Bulls he has not been able to fulfill the expectations of himself, the coach and management, and the fans. He feels he needs a fresh start.

whoa.

[BloodyQ]

I mean, okay. He’s played like ass all season. If you play like crap, and then want out because you aren’t getting the shots you haven’t earned anyway, so long.

Problem I have is that his trade value is likely crap.

I don’t think it is. I feel like the rest of the league thinks he’s a legit player.

Remember listening to NBA Radio and Eddie Johnson was going off on how we were destroying Markannen and how he believes he’s such a good player. I think he might have the second highest trade value on this team. Wendell is always hurt and haven’t even shown enough yet to warrant anything decent at this point

The Bulls system gives him a whole bunch of open looks and he misses 80% of them. What other NBA star would miss that many?

[dougthonus]

I guess I should have put in the qualifier as "elite shooter for a big man" but he's on his way to becoming an elite shooter in general. Ability should be assessed outside of injury play. First year Lauri was very much a streaky shooter but when he was on fire, he was on fire. Last year, coming back from a serious injury to his SHOOTING elbow, he was around 38% until the fatigue stuff happened.

I don't think he's really elite for a big man either, given that he is mostly taking assisted open threes. There is no point in arguing that when he shoots well he shoots well. His overall efficiency and shot difficulty is what you look at and balance. His overall difficulty isn't especially high and his efficiency isn't especially good.

His type of shooting will probably be the norm for most big men in the league over the next few years and not something that is elite or even notably above average.

This year it was whatever his problem was earlier (I do think it was some sort of injury) he was bad for 20 games. But he was at 38% for the last 26, 41% until he sprained his ankle.

Looking at good periods statistically and then ignoring bad periods and creating a reason like "I think he was really dealing with an unreported injury" feels like a really inaccurate way to come up with an assessment.

We really haven't had a full season of assessing Lauri. I am also getting tired about making excuses about injury but it is what it is. Hovering around 38% on high volume is a high level shooter and I expect him to be at that and probably get better with more NBA years.

He's not hovering around 38% though. He's hovering around 35%. You can't arbitrarily just get rid of all the bad data because it doesn't fit your desired outcome. You could probably come up with similar stories for all kinds of guys who shoot 35%.

His injury history is concerning but not terrifying. He doesn't have the type of injuries, generally, that make you feel like he could never stay healthy, but there's certainly a question about whether his body can hold up as we haven't seen it yet.

[coldfish]

There is obviously something up with Lauri. The Finnish mafia reports that after game 1 (where he played great) Boylen jumped on him about taking bad shots.

I'm not that high on Lauri and I'm not nearly as negative about Boylen as others but Boylen is emminently replaceable. No way would I trade Lauri now with his value in the toilet. The Bulls should get a new coach now that Hoiberg's deal is up and see how Lauri does then.

. . . . and man does Paxson ever need to be fired. He has completely butchered this rebuild.

[Fl_Flash]

I somehow think the truth is somewhere in the middle here. Pretty sure Lauri may have broken the offense that first game and had a great game. Pretty sure that Boylen let him know how he didn't like him breaking the offense and going solo. To what extent is in question, but I'm sure there was some discussion.

Now, after that, did Lauri pout and take the instructions from the coach to an extreme and just sit in a corner or is he just doing what his coach is asking of him and the results aren't great. Two different interpretations - two different mindsets

As a coach, if I see a guy going off for 35 and 12, I'm going to examine what he was doing and get him to replicate that as much as possible. I'm not going to pigeonhole him into a narrow role. Also, as a coach I'm graded on results and if my offense is not working or limiting a guy to that extent, I'm going to re-examine what I'm doing so that I can get more out of my guy (Lauri) and also the team as a whole.

I tend to think the issue is more on the Boylen side than Lauri, but both of them have a horse in this dysfunctional race.

If I'm Lauri, I'm breaking the offense every chance I get to show what I can do and how bad the offense is because I want to win. That may not be the actual Lauri's mindset. Maybe he's just a good kid who is doing what he's been told to do.

[MeloRoseNoah]

I don’t care much about Lauri opinion but he needs to develop his offense into an elite level status. He has failed to do here after 3 seasons in the NBA. It’s on him.

However, Boylen is the most incompetent coach that I have ever seen after Boylen Sr during the Skiles era. Coby White after half a season in the NBA is worse than college Coby. That is crazy.

For this reason, Gar Foreman for garbage drafts in recent years and John Paxson for garbage personnel hirings need to gtfo.

[MrSparkle]

There is obviously something up with Lauri. The Finnish mafia reports that after game 1 (where he played great) Boylen jumped on him about taking bad shots.

I'm not that high on Lauri and I'm not nearly as negative about Boylen as others but Boylen is emminently replaceable. No way would I trade Lauri now with his value in the toilet. The Bulls should get a new coach now that Hoiberg's deal is up and see how Lauri does then.

. . . . and man does Paxson ever need to be fired. He has completely butchered this rebuild.

I'm pretty hyper critical and careful with getting too excited over rookies, but everything Lauri demonstrated in his FIBA summer and first few months of Bulls basketball as a rookie was: "poise", consistency, knew where to be on the floor. I don't think he proved he was our next Rose/Butler (not that Butler did until 3 years later, anyway), but he did make Bill Simmons choke on his words, and he got props from Lebron.

He seemed like a really settled and high IQ player compared to Niko's really erratic play, which seemed largely based on emotions (and he apparently felt bad most the time)... and Bobby's super low IQ, always in the wrong place at the wrong time, just gonna take shots when I have the ball approach.

So I agree - I would MUCH RATHER see Boylen fired and some roster changes, and see what Lauri does in a new situation, as opposed to seeing Lauri dumped and Boylen continue hacking his way through NBA prospects.

Furthermore, I was 1000% adamant that Fred Hoiberg should be fired before Jimmy Butler should be traded. I was also 1000% adamant that Thibs' get a bigger roster rehaul in summer 2015 before getting fired.

I'm just getting sick of the "wrong guys" surviving Reinsdorf's HR decisions. At least he should've let Thibs or Jimmy actually fall flat on their face. Losing to the contender Lebron Cavs in 6 with an injured Pau and pretty dramatic Rose quick-surgery-recovery was incentive to fire him?

This has been Pax's style. Every time he makes a move, it's like the last guy(s) IMO who should been traded/fired. I don't know if I'm living in alternate reality, but what made Paxson think that keeping Hinrich was more valuable than Gordon? What made him think that Wallace/PJ were upgrades to Chandler? What made him think that Ron Adams should get the axe?

Or even the minute moves, like dumping Korver instead of just using a 1st like Tony Snell to dump Rip Hamilton's contract. Or deciding to let DJ and Nate walk after good campaigns. We really could've used DJ as Rose's backup in the 2014-16 seasons. Instead he over-valued the PF/C positions, with a whopping 5-man depth (all guys wanting minutes, not career backups like Plumlee or Baynes).

And I realize some of them didn't work out: Gordon's Pistons contract, Nate tore his ACL, DJ ended up being mediocre. Kind of. At the same time, these guys FIT the Bulls really well. The 08 Celtics series was an epic display, and yes, Rose had his coming out party, but Gordon was also bombing 3Ps like a maniac, and frankly, who knows if he gets all depressed and deflated as a long-time Bull, playing with a really good contender.

I just feel like Paxson has consistently dumped "good players" in lieu of the big risk of getting younger, thinking he's got someone even better coming up.

[PrimzyBulls81]

Awful Coach, bad offensive system, bad mis-usage of Lauri, thats it! He didnt just became that bad.. Boylen and Bulls are just awful atm for Lauri and his developement.

[chefo]

If chiding your big who just went for an efficient 35 & 17 in front of the team is what Boylen refers to as ‘teaching moments’, this idiot and anybody from the staff and FO who didn’t tell him to shut up should be sent On one-way tickets to Siberia for basketball related reasons...

I’m curious if Lauri being told to chill in the corner was part of teaching him a lesson, or just pure incompetence. If what’s being reported in the Finnish media is true, I just don’t know what to say. I’m effin’ speechless. This is like an Space Jam where the aliens stole the coaches’ brains instead.

Or what was that from dumb and dumber: just when I thought you couldn’t get any dumber, you do something like that and totally redeem yourself!

[Red8911]

I don't know how anyone can watch the Bulls and say Boylen is doing anything to even give Lauri a chance to develop. And that's the #1 job of a coach in this situation. Yes, it is also true that Lauri could handle it better, that some players can overcome that kind of thing, etc. But more often than not, if you're a young player and your coach doesn't even seem remotely interested in doing what you do well and what maximizes your performance, you're going to struggle - unless maybe you're a Lebron, Zion, etc.

My problem with Lauri is his softness. For a 7 footer he has to be tougher than that and the way he’s playing it’s not going to cut it. He’s just too calm and too nice. Can Boylen or any coach fix that? Who knows.

Another problem he has is his basketball IQ. He has incredible talent but he needs to play smarter and score easy points. Coaching can definitely help him here a bit but it’s also on him to learn the game better. He doesn’t even know how to use his size the right way.

Overall I don’t blame Boylen over Lauri. There were a bunch of games where Lavine, Sato, and his other teammates were looking to pass to him only to get him going and he still struggled. I guess they should try another coach so we can see if he can help him but I’m not convinced that coaching is Lauris problem. He has to take it upon himself and work on his game.

This summer he needs to work his ass off in a basketball court and that doesn’t mean just lifting weights. Maybe get Pippen or someone else like that to push him to his limits. Last summer it seems like he didn’t do anything since he didn’t improve at all. Maybe it was that issue he had with the fatigue at the end of last season and that affected him but whatever the case is he needs to turn things around and it’s all on him not Boylen or any coach.

[HomoSapien]

An important issue that's not being discussed is WHY Lauri wants out? Is it because of Boylen? Is he tired of losing? Hates the city of Chicago?

First of all, he (still) likes the city of Chicago. Weather is like back home, he and his family has a nice home, the people are nice to him and his family.

What he doesn't like is that Bulls want to make him a meaty center who on offense stands in a corner shooting threes, and on defense runs blitzes on the perimeter. Last summer he spent time with coach Boylen, and he got a different impression of what his role would be.

He doesn't like he was reprimanded in front of the team after the season opener for not sticking to the team plan, taking shots that were agreed to be "forbidden", told that he was glory-hunting instead of playing for the team.

He feels uncomfortable with a couple of his team-mates who seems to dislike him. Apparently being european, not drinking alcohol and not spending time with hookers is bad in their opinion, and Lauri fits all of that. Apologies have been presented and accepted, but it doesn't take away the uncomfortable feeling.

Most importantly, he is extremely disappointed at himself that during his time with the Bulls he has not been able to fulfill the expectations of himself, the coach and management, and the fans. He feels he needs a fresh start.

Can I ask where this information is coming from?

[MrSparkle]

I don't know how anyone can watch the Bulls and say Boylen is doing anything to even give Lauri a chance to develop. And that's the #1 job of a coach in this situation. Yes, it is also true that Lauri could handle it better, that some players can overcome that kind of thing, etc. But more often than not, if you're a young player and your coach doesn't even seem remotely interested in doing what you do well and what maximizes your performance, you're going to struggle - unless maybe you're a Lebron, Zion, etc.

My problem with Lauri is his softness. For a 7 footer he has to be tougher than that and the way he’s playing it’s not going to cut it. He’s just too calm and too nice. Can Boylen or any coach fix that? Who knows.

Another problem he has is his basketball IQ. He has incredible talent but he needs to play smarter and score easy points. Coaching can definitely help him here a bit but it’s also on him to learn the game better. He doesn’t even know how to use his size the right way.

Overall I don’t blame Boylen over Lauri. There were a bunch of games where Lavine, Sato, and his other teammates were looking to pass to him only to get him going and he still struggled. I guess they should try another coach so we can see if he can help him but I’m not convinced that coaching is Lauris problem. He has to take it upon himself and work on his game.

This summer he needs to work his ass off in a basketball court and that doesn’t mean just lifting weights. Maybe get Pippen or someone else like that to push him to his limits. Last summer it seems like he didn’t do anything since he didn’t improve at all. Maybe it was that issue he had with the fatigue at the end of last season and that affected him but whatever the case is he needs to turn things around and it’s all on him not Boylen or any coach.

Yeah.... maybe Lauri is soft compared to the aggressive bigs of the NBA.

But like I've said, a good coach hides a player's weaknesses. I'm sure if Carlisle had Dirk banging at C in his youth (or I guess Nelson back when he coached), Dirk would probably end up with a busted hip and shot knees by the time he was 25. What did they have? They had a soft defense and an ultra offense. I think by the time Dirk turned 32, I personally felt like he hit a peak as a "big man." He rebounded and finished with contact, with authority. And he had a 7'3 pogo stick named Tyson Chandler, in his prime, grabbing rebounds.

Same with Chris Bosh. Called Princess Bosh up to about to that same point, especially when Boozer schooled him in regular season. Then he turned 27, hit the weights, and could actually rebound the ball at center with authority, and he figured out his role as the 3rd banana. It took a pretty stacked and epic Spurs team to beat them. He also routinely schooled Boozer. Also, the whole time, Riley made sure to have insurance at C (Joel Anthony, Birdman), regardless of what scrubs they were; they were big bodies who played 15-20 mpg.

Playing Lauri with an undersized, average athlete in Carter, and a young project to be frank, in a 1-4 type of offense Boylen's got... coupled with blitz defense, it's just all kinds of stupid. I don't think this is a matter of proving that Lauri can be a great legend in the history of the NBA, but holy cow are you challenging the kid to do absolutely nothing he's capable of doing comfortably other than taking contested 3P spot-up shots from the weak side. And the thing is, any team with a scouting report, their guys aren't really letting him take uncontested 3Ps, so he's still shooting them with a hand or rushing defender in his face. Not like Carter, Sato and Dunn were creating space.

And I agree that a big weakness for Lauri is that he can't rebound strong and block shots. It's a problem for him. But I wouldn't feed into that and highlight it. He's 21. He might figure that out at 25 or 26. In the meantime, if you need to get him a Tyson Chandler type of C, or I guess RoLo (whose impact I underestimated), then you do it.

[AKfanatic]

An important issue that's not being discussed is WHY Lauri wants out? Is it because of Boylen? Is he tired of losing? Hates the city of Chicago?

First of all, he (still) likes the city of Chicago. Weather is like back home, he and his family has a nice home, the people are nice to him and his family.

What he doesn't like is that Bulls want to make him a meaty center who on offense stands in a corner shooting threes, and on defense runs blitzes on the perimeter. Last summer he spent time with coach Boylen, and he got a different impression of what his role would be.

He doesn't like he was reprimanded in front of the team after the season opener for not sticking to the team plan, taking shots that were agreed to be "forbidden", told that he was glory-hunting instead of playing for the team.

He feels uncomfortable with a couple of his team-mates who seems to dislike him. Apparently being european, not drinking alcohol and not spending time with hookers is bad in their opinion, and Lauri fits all of that. Apologies have been presented and accepted, but it doesn't take away the uncomfortable feeling.

Most importantly, he is extremely disappointed at himself that during his time with the Bulls he has not been able to fulfill the expectations of himself, the coach and management, and the fans. He feels he needs a fresh start.

Can I ask where this information is coming from?

Much of that has a air of truth to it, the Bulls have seemingly wanted Lauri beefed up, which hurts his natural game. The coaching has obviously told Lauri to stop taking midrange shots, have all but abandoned the styles that typically allowed Lauri to find a shot. Lauri has seemingly liked Chicago.

But.... teammates not liking Lauri because he’s “European” and “not drinking alcohol and not spending time with hookers”.

Sounds like a someone is attempting to paint Lauri’s teammates as some sort of racist while using racist tropes ....