Image ImageImage Image

OT: COVID-19 thread #2

Moderators: HomoSapien, dougthonus, kulaz3000, fleet, RedBulls23, Ice Man, Tommy Udo 6 , AshyLarrysDiaper, GimmeDat, DASMACKDOWN, Payt10

musiqsoulchild
RealGM
Posts: 29,237
And1: 6,166
Joined: Nov 28, 2005
Location: Chicago

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#1961 » by musiqsoulchild » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:55 pm

PlayerUp wrote:
dice wrote:ouch:

Image


Brazil and India are not on these charts.

You can't feel pity for alot of these people being infected. If you're wearing a proper mask and taking all the necessary precautions, you shouldn't have much to be concerned about.


The pity I feel for such people stems from the fact that they were mislead by Trump. And by some faith leaders.

This is not OK.

Trump has not once put on a cloth covering. Along with the added benefit of not having to see his full face, it would have sent a signal to his followers that thos is what we need to do.

Remember what Christie did when the next big one hit after Hurricane Sandy? He got on TV, Radio..and scolded everyone and told them "You will die. Evacuate".

Leadership has been not only lacking in pur country for Covid and for race relations. It has in fact played the role of Chief Antagonist.

That's criminally shocking.
User avatar
coldfish
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 49,600
And1: 18,987
Joined: Jun 11, 2004
Location: Right in the middle
 

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#1962 » by coldfish » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:10 pm

dice wrote:
coldfish wrote:
dice wrote:

the fatality rate would be even lower if we had been testing to the degree that we should


In the terms that I meant it, fatality rate = fatalities / true infections. For the number of infections they have dealt with, our medical system has performed admirably.

The fatality count would have been much lower had we handled this better from a strategic perspective.

what constitutes a "true infection"?


Interpreted the biological way, that's a tough question that is way over my head. Medical professionals argue over the requisite viral load to determine what line defines an infection.

What I meant was not "cases" or instances where someone new tested positive for the virus. True infections = number of people who have actually been infected regardless of getting a test or not including asymptomatics.

There have been 2.6m cases in the US. Estimates vary wildly but there have been between 15m and 70m true infections in the US to date, depending on how its analyzed. The US medical system is doing a fantastic job minimizing the number of infections that turn into fatalities.

The infection fatality rate in the US is estimated at 0.25% by the CDC but that number is rapidly trending down.
Dresden
Head Coach
Posts: 6,625
And1: 3,444
Joined: Nov 02, 2017
       

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#1963 » by Dresden » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:57 pm

musiqsoulchild wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
dice wrote:ouch:

Image


Brazil and India are not on these charts.

You can't feel pity for alot of these people being infected. If you're wearing a proper mask and taking all the necessary precautions, you shouldn't have much to be concerned about.


The pity I feel for such people stems from the fact that they were mislead by Trump. And by some faith leaders.

This is not OK.

Trump has not once put on a cloth covering. Along with the added benefit of not having to see his full face, it would have sent a signal to his followers that thos is what we need to do.

Remember what Christie did when the next big one hit after Hurricane Sandy? He got on TV, Radio..and scolded everyone and told them "You will die. Evacuate".

Leadership has been not only lacking in pur country for Covid and for race relations. It has in fact played the role of Chief Antagonist.

That's criminally shocking.


I feel like both things are true- it is peoples' responsibility at this point to listen to the science and health officials, and wear the damn masks, and social distance. You hear about a lot of people who say things like "I just didn't think it was real, until I got infected, now I know". But it's also true that Trump, Pence and that whole lot have mislead a lot of people into thinking it was over when it wasn't. They are, I believe, going to be personally responsible for thousands of new deaths from this thing before it's all over, just due to the fact that they refused to endorse the idea of wearing masks, despite their own health officials pleading with people to do so. To me, that's a more impeachable offense than the Ukraine thing or the Mueller report. There is not one good reason for Trump doing this, other than he's a stubborn, petulant adolescent who refuses to admit he's wrong about anything.
Dresden
Head Coach
Posts: 6,625
And1: 3,444
Joined: Nov 02, 2017
       

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#1964 » by Dresden » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:37 pm

As for the CDC losing the trust of the public due to their flip flop on mask wearing, NYT article today shows that that is just not true:

"The poll shows that large majorities across the partisan divide trust medical scientists and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, though Democrats are more trusting than Republicans over all. The levels are similar to those found in public opinion surveys earlier in the pandemic, and in the years before it, suggesting that the politicization of the coronavirus response has not demolished the credibility of science.

In the Times survey, 84 percent of voters said they trusted medical scientists to provide reliable information about the virus, with 90 percent of Democrats and 75 percent of Republicans trusting the experts. Overall trust in the C.D.C. was 77 percent — 71 percent among Republicans and 83 percent among Democrats."

It does mention that some people have lost faith in the CDC due to their mixed messages, but overall, support still remains very high:

"In the face of those headwinds, the high levels of trust in scientists are remarkable. “I haven’t seen much evidence that trust in scientists or trust in the scientific community has eroded,” said Matt Motta, an assistant professor of political science at Oklahoma State University, who studies the intersection of politics and science."

One of the real problems is that people don't trust the new media:

"And, consistent with other surveys, trust in the news media is low, especially among Republicans. Only 7 percent of Republicans say they trust the national news media to provide accurate information about the virus. That could be a problem, since far more Americans are learning about the pandemic from news reports than from their personal doctor or the C.D.C. website."

On the other hand, "Pew research has shown that people who rely on the White House for information on the virus tend to think the disease and pandemic are less dangerous than people who get their news from the national or local news media."
User avatar
PlayerUp
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,535
And1: 621
Joined: Feb 21, 2014
Contact:

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#1965 » by PlayerUp » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:44 pm

PlayerUp wrote:2020 is arguably the worst year in our lifetime

- Fires in Australia
- Volcano where I'm at
- Kobe
- Impeachment/Drama in DC
- COVID-19
- George Floyd
- Riots and Looters
- Last of Us 2

We don't deserve this.


- Add Dr Disrespect Getting Banned on Twitch

2020 sucks.
User avatar
PlayerUp
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,535
And1: 621
Joined: Feb 21, 2014
Contact:

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#1966 » by PlayerUp » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:51 pm

Dresden wrote:
musiqsoulchild wrote:To me, that's a more impeachable offense than the Ukraine thing or the Mueller report. There is not one good reason for Trump doing this, other than he's a stubborn, petulant adolescent who refuses to admit he's wrong about anything.


Impeachment is such a waste of time. We're wasting tax dollars and time on this. It only pisses people off in the end. Same thing with Clinton. Just let the voters decide. You have to get 2/3 votes in the Senate and that will never happen with any president in our lifetime now or in the future.
User avatar
PlayerUp
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,535
And1: 621
Joined: Feb 21, 2014
Contact:

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#1967 » by PlayerUp » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:05 pm

Dresden wrote:I feel like both things are true- it is peoples' responsibility at this point to listen to the science and health officials, and wear the damn masks, and social distance. You hear about a lot of people who say things like "I just didn't think it was real, until I got infected, now I know". But it's also true that Trump, Pence and that whole lot have mislead a lot of people into thinking it was over when it wasn't. They are, I believe, going to be personally responsible for thousands of new deaths from this thing before it's all over, just due to the fact that they refused to endorse the idea of wearing masks, despite their own health officials pleading with people to do so. To me, that's a more impeachable offense than the Ukraine thing or the Mueller report. There is not one good reason for Trump doing this, other than he's a stubborn, petulant adolescent who refuses to admit he's wrong about anything.


We can point fingers all day but people should now be educated on what to do and what not to do. Already enough media coverage on this, health experts, videos, and officials reporting on this matter. If my 5 year old daughter knows how to protect against COVID-19, certainly most of the nation should know by now. We have done alot to try to combat this issue more so than most countries.

The #1 issue is people being stubborn here with wearing masks and minimizing risks.
Dresden
Head Coach
Posts: 6,625
And1: 3,444
Joined: Nov 02, 2017
       

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#1968 » by Dresden » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:12 pm

PlayerUp wrote:
Dresden wrote:I feel like both things are true- it is peoples' responsibility at this point to listen to the science and health officials, and wear the damn masks, and social distance. You hear about a lot of people who say things like "I just didn't think it was real, until I got infected, now I know". But it's also true that Trump, Pence and that whole lot have mislead a lot of people into thinking it was over when it wasn't. They are, I believe, going to be personally responsible for thousands of new deaths from this thing before it's all over, just due to the fact that they refused to endorse the idea of wearing masks, despite their own health officials pleading with people to do so. To me, that's a more impeachable offense than the Ukraine thing or the Mueller report. There is not one good reason for Trump doing this, other than he's a stubborn, petulant adolescent who refuses to admit he's wrong about anything.


We can point fingers all day but people should now be educated on what to do and what not to do. Already enough media coverage on this, health experts, videos, and officials reporting on this matter. If my 5 year old daughter knows how to protect against COVID-19, certainly most of the nation should know by now. We have done alot to try to combat this issue more so than most countries.

The #1 issue is people being stubborn here with wearing masks and minimizing risks.


One other factor in new infections (and previous ones as well), is that some people never were able to shelter in place, and work in situations where they are at high risk. Many of these are people in the service industry, in ag, in places like meat packing plants, essential workers of all kinds, etc. When infections in a community go up, they often wind up being infected because of their exposure, safety precautions or not. And many of these folks are minorities- Latino's have a much higher rate of infection per capita, for instance, and that's because of their position in the workplace, among other factors (living in more densely populated areas, and having more people per household).
Dresden
Head Coach
Posts: 6,625
And1: 3,444
Joined: Nov 02, 2017
       

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#1969 » by Dresden » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:15 pm

PlayerUp wrote:
Dresden wrote:
musiqsoulchild wrote:To me, that's a more impeachable offense than the Ukraine thing or the Mueller report. There is not one good reason for Trump doing this, other than he's a stubborn, petulant adolescent who refuses to admit he's wrong about anything.


Impeachment is such a waste of time. We're wasting tax dollars and time on this. It only pisses people off in the end. Same thing with Clinton. Just let the voters decide. You have to get 2/3 votes in the Senate and that will never happen with any president in our lifetime now or in the future.


I disagree. I think it's a constitutional duty to impeach the president, when it is warranted. Not to do so, when he/she has clearly committed an impeachable offense, is like saying "we won't arrest that guy, even though he broke the law, because we know it's just a waste of money and time". You have to draw the line somewhere, and when it's crossed, you have to act. That's what the system of checks and balances is built on.
User avatar
PlayerUp
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,535
And1: 621
Joined: Feb 21, 2014
Contact:

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#1970 » by PlayerUp » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:24 pm

Dresden wrote:I disagree. I think it's a constitutional duty to impeach the president, when it is warranted. Not to do so, when he/she has clearly committed an impeachable offense, is like saying "we won't arrest that guy, even though he broke the law, because we know it's just a waste of money and time". You have to draw the line somewhere, and when it's crossed, you have to act. That's what the system of checks and balances is built on.


Well we're all entitled to our own opinions. Nobody is wrong.
Dresden
Head Coach
Posts: 6,625
And1: 3,444
Joined: Nov 02, 2017
       

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#1971 » by Dresden » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:54 pm

PlayerUp wrote:
Dresden wrote:I disagree. I think it's a constitutional duty to impeach the president, when it is warranted. Not to do so, when he/she has clearly committed an impeachable offense, is like saying "we won't arrest that guy, even though he broke the law, because we know it's just a waste of money and time". You have to draw the line somewhere, and when it's crossed, you have to act. That's what the system of checks and balances is built on.


Well we're all entitled to our own opinions. Nobody is wrong.


Sure.
User avatar
DuckIII
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 62,014
And1: 24,254
Joined: Nov 25, 2003
Location: On my high horse.
     

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#1972 » by DuckIII » Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:54 pm

PlayerUp wrote:
Dresden wrote:I disagree. I think it's a constitutional duty to impeach the president, when it is warranted. Not to do so, when he/she has clearly committed an impeachable offense, is like saying "we won't arrest that guy, even though he broke the law, because we know it's just a waste of money and time". You have to draw the line somewhere, and when it's crossed, you have to act. That's what the system of checks and balances is built on.


Well we're all entitled to our own opinions. Nobody is wrong.


Except for you. The reason we have impeachment is because some things are so severe we can’t wait a couple more years for voters to decide and not having a method for the removal of a sitting President begs for a coup. It’s an extremely important element of the Constitutional balance of power and helps ensure that American leadership remains civil rather than military.

That said, this particular impeachment proceeding was an ill advised political farce from the very beginning, and I’m a Democrat.
Once a pickle, never a cucumber again.
Dresden
Head Coach
Posts: 6,625
And1: 3,444
Joined: Nov 02, 2017
       

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#1973 » by Dresden » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:24 pm

DuckIII wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
Dresden wrote:I disagree. I think it's a constitutional duty to impeach the president, when it is warranted. Not to do so, when he/she has clearly committed an impeachable offense, is like saying "we won't arrest that guy, even though he broke the law, because we know it's just a waste of money and time". You have to draw the line somewhere, and when it's crossed, you have to act. That's what the system of checks and balances is built on.


Well we're all entitled to our own opinions. Nobody is wrong.


Except for you. The reason we have impeachment is because some things are so severe we can’t wait a couple more years for voters to decide and not having a method for the removal of a sitting President begs for a coup. It’s an extremely important element of the Constitutional balance of power and helps ensure that American leadership remains civil rather than military.

That said, this particular impeachment proceeding was an ill advised political farce from the very beginning, and I’m a Democrat.


Why do you think it was ill-advised/
transplant
RealGM
Posts: 11,413
And1: 3,028
Joined: Aug 16, 2001
Location: state of perpetual confusion
       

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#1974 » by transplant » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:09 pm

DuckIII wrote:
transplant wrote:I blame the current administration for the woefully slow start our country had in response to the Covid-19 pandemic. I don't blame them so much for the Covid situation we face right now. They haven't helped and they haven't provided a good outward example, but advice on the right behaviors is readily available and at some point, we have to expect that individuals will do what's right. I blame each person who willfully ignores the best medical advice for whatever stupid reason they may have to do so.


Sorry, Transplant, but no. The White House and conservative Governors all around America have been aggressively and actively undermining the medical and scientific community, applauding and encouraging “civil disobedience” and decrying governors taking a more conservative science based approach as anti-American and weak.

Given my line of work, I’ve been following the lawsuit side of this, and disgracefully Trump’s DOJ has been backing litigation seeking to overturn stay at home orders and slower reopening models in numerous states. Including Illinois (check out the history of Darren Bailey’s lawsuit against Pritzker, in which the DOJ intervened as soon as the AG removed to federal court to get away from the moronic Judge in Clay County who used the lawsuit as a campaign platform).

Yes, personal responsibility is where the buck stops. But GOP leadership has been grotesquely active in destroying the health of Americans for political gain. There is blood all over their hands. They don’t get a pass just because people are technically capable of ignoring them.

I hear ya, and if you want to declare Trump a menace, I've been saying the same for 3+ years. I have never considered him as my leader. He is unquestionably an impediment to right thinking, but we can't let the dangerous idiocy of the current administration absolve us of our individual responsibility for the common good. I don't give a flying **** what our President says or does. We have no national leadership other than the science. The information is there for us. We are individually responsible for the solution. I don't want anyone to think it's OK to pass the blame.
Until the actual truth is more important to you than what you believe, you will never recognize the truth.

- Blatantly stolen from truebluefan
User avatar
molepharmer
Head Coach
Posts: 6,019
And1: 802
Joined: Feb 27, 2002

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#1975 » by molepharmer » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:21 pm

Dresden wrote:...One of the real problems is that people don't trust the new media:

"And, consistent with other surveys, trust in the news media is low, especially among Republicans. Only 7 percent of Republicans say they trust the national news media to provide accurate information about the virus. That could be a problem, since far more Americans are learning about the pandemic from news reports than from their personal doctor or the C.D.C. website."....

The science has been excellent. The problem has been the media taking tidbits from pre-print and non-peer reviewed articles and running with it; adding their own little slant, blowing stuff way out of proportion. The results and conclusions from these studies come from a defined set of conditions, which the media almost completely ignores.

Some of the pre-print science is very good and eventually does make it through the review process. But you need a good scientific background to know what is bad science and what is good science. Most of the media, unfortunately, does not have that expertise. Granted, with the Covid-19 pandemic and the overwhelming amount of studies being conducted, the peer review process has suffered somewhat. So a few more research papers do get into science journals that perhaps shouldn't have and subsequently have been retracted.
TGibson (1/28/17); "..."a 4 or 5 on a scale of 1 to 10 for drama"...What's the worst? "...yelling matches with Thibs, everybody is just going crazy and I'm just sitting there...like, 'Don't call my name please..."
Dresden
Head Coach
Posts: 6,625
And1: 3,444
Joined: Nov 02, 2017
       

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#1976 » by Dresden » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:05 pm

molepharmer wrote:
Dresden wrote:...One of the real problems is that people don't trust the new media:

"And, consistent with other surveys, trust in the news media is low, especially among Republicans. Only 7 percent of Republicans say they trust the national news media to provide accurate information about the virus. That could be a problem, since far more Americans are learning about the pandemic from news reports than from their personal doctor or the C.D.C. website."....

The science has been excellent. The problem has been the media taking tidbits from pre-print and non-peer reviewed articles and running with it; adding their own little slant, blowing stuff way out of proportion. The results and conclusions from these studies come from a defined set of conditions, which the media almost completely ignores.

Some of the pre-print science is very good and eventually does make it through the review process. But you need a good scientific background to know what is bad science and what is good science. Most of the media, unfortunately, does not have that expertise. Granted, with the Covid-19 pandemic and the overwhelming amount of studies being conducted, the peer review process has suffered somewhat. So a few more research papers do get into science journals that perhaps shouldn't have and subsequently have been retracted.


Could you give an example of this. I'm just a layperson, but most of the reports I've read of scientific studies in mainstream media have been pretty careful about qualifying when those results have been peer reviewed, and when they haven't, or have been careful to say the results are preliminary. For instance, the reports on the efficacy of chloroquine were pretty clearly couched in terms of "studies have shown conflicting results", etc.
User avatar
DuckIII
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 62,014
And1: 24,254
Joined: Nov 25, 2003
Location: On my high horse.
     

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#1977 » by DuckIII » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:45 pm

Dresden wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
Well we're all entitled to our own opinions. Nobody is wrong.


Except for you. The reason we have impeachment is because some things are so severe we can’t wait a couple more years for voters to decide and not having a method for the removal of a sitting President begs for a coup. It’s an extremely important element of the Constitutional balance of power and helps ensure that American leadership remains civil rather than military.

That said, this particular impeachment proceeding was an ill advised political farce from the very beginning, and I’m a Democrat.


Why do you think it was ill-advised/


Because it was never going to result in a conviction and just played into the already existing narrative about the left. It was time and resource wasteful and politically disadvantageous.
Once a pickle, never a cucumber again.
dice
RealGM
Posts: 36,429
And1: 9,699
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#1978 » by dice » Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:11 am

DuckIII wrote:
Dresden wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
Except for you. The reason we have impeachment is because some things are so severe we can’t wait a couple more years for voters to decide and not having a method for the removal of a sitting President begs for a coup. It’s an extremely important element of the Constitutional balance of power and helps ensure that American leadership remains civil rather than military.

That said, this particular impeachment proceeding was an ill advised political farce from the very beginning, and I’m a Democrat.


Why do you think it was ill-advised/


Because it was never going to result in a conviction and just played into the already existing narrative about the left. It was time and resource wasteful and politically disadvantageous.

to be fair, playerup said that the reason not to do it was that it wasn't going to result in a conviction

i shudder to think what trump would have to do to actually get removed from office via impeachment
"all those muscles ain't gonna help you tonight. i'm gonna bust you up" - larry bird to rookie anthony mason before going for 29/18/11
dice
RealGM
Posts: 36,429
And1: 9,699
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#1979 » by dice » Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:22 am

transplant wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
transplant wrote:I blame the current administration for the woefully slow start our country had in response to the Covid-19 pandemic. I don't blame them so much for the Covid situation we face right now. They haven't helped and they haven't provided a good outward example, but advice on the right behaviors is readily available and at some point, we have to expect that individuals will do what's right. I blame each person who willfully ignores the best medical advice for whatever stupid reason they may have to do so.


Sorry, Transplant, but no. The White House and conservative Governors all around America have been aggressively and actively undermining the medical and scientific community, applauding and encouraging “civil disobedience” and decrying governors taking a more conservative science based approach as anti-American and weak.

Given my line of work, I’ve been following the lawsuit side of this, and disgracefully Trump’s DOJ has been backing litigation seeking to overturn stay at home orders and slower reopening models in numerous states. Including Illinois (check out the history of Darren Bailey’s lawsuit against Pritzker, in which the DOJ intervened as soon as the AG removed to federal court to get away from the moronic Judge in Clay County who used the lawsuit as a campaign platform).

Yes, personal responsibility is where the buck stops. But GOP leadership has been grotesquely active in destroying the health of Americans for political gain. There is blood all over their hands. They don’t get a pass just because people are technically capable of ignoring them.

I hear ya, and if you want to declare Trump a menace, I've been saying the same for 3+ years. I have never considered him as my leader. He is unquestionably an impediment to right thinking, but we can't let the dangerous idiocy of the current administration absolve us of our individual responsibility for the common good. I don't give a flying **** what our President says or does. We have no national leadership other than the science. The information is there for us. We are individually responsible for the solution. I don't want anyone to think it's OK to pass the blame.

it comes down to why americans are particularly disinclined to be socially responsible. and i think there are at least three reasons:

#1 with a bullet: politicians and right wing media fostering a distrust of science for political gain/profit
#2: entitlement/arrogance (thinking that we are an exception to the rule)
#3: sub-par primary and secondary education

widespread individual actions are a function of broader cultural issues
"all those muscles ain't gonna help you tonight. i'm gonna bust you up" - larry bird to rookie anthony mason before going for 29/18/11
dice
RealGM
Posts: 36,429
And1: 9,699
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#1980 » by dice » Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:35 am

58% of duval county voters oppose RNC holding nomination convention in jacksonville. trump won the county narrowly in 2016
"all those muscles ain't gonna help you tonight. i'm gonna bust you up" - larry bird to rookie anthony mason before going for 29/18/11

Return to Chicago Bulls