Boylen worried he's a goner, wants to meet w/Karnisovas

[dougthonus]

Boylen hasn't been a silent coach. He has been vocal to the media and has also been abrasive with the players.

I cannot see the advantage of keeping him outweighing the advantages of firing him and dialing in the season for a high pick.

There's a pretty good chance the Bulls won't play another game this year anyway. If so, they will probably play no more than 5-6 games (the only reason we're not jumping straight to playoffs is to hit TV games played milestones). I don't think these negatives are that meaningful.

I'm not saying we should keep him for the end of the season, I'm just saying if ownership said "we're not hiring a new coach for 5 games and we don't want to bother making Chris Flemming interim for 5 games" then that's also reasonable and doesn't say anything about AK or the power structure.

[League Circles]

If Arturas is not allowed to fire this guy before next season, then either:

a) He has an awful judgment and will be no good, so I will not want him running the Bulls
b) All the change is just a PR stunt and he does not have any real responsibility. He should resign in this case to protect his image.

Come on.

If he has to wait until after the season to fire Boylen it doesn't mean anything. That's a totally reasonable thing for ownership to say to him.

Just one point to note Doug:

Boylen hasn't been a silent coach. He has been vocal to the media and has also been abrasive with the players.

I cannot see the advantage of keeping him outweighing the advantages of firing him and dialing in the season for a high pick.

The advantage to keeping him the rest of the season is marginal, but obvious. The last thing you want is an interim coach somehow gets these guys to appear to play well for 10 games or whatever and then you have misplaced public sentiment to keep that person.

I also don't understand the concept that firing him now helps our draft pick if you also think he sucks and should be fired.

I'm wondering who the "heavy hitters" are in his corner. My guess is multiple players. Not sure who though. It would be disengenuous reporting to call Pax or Collins "heavy hitters" at this point.

Who would possibly be the players that support Boylen? Honest question. Zach? Otto? Coby?

[IamSam]

Boylen hasn't been a silent coach. He has been vocal to the media and has also been abrasive with the players.

I cannot see the advantage of keeping him outweighing the advantages of firing him and dialing in the season for a high pick.

There's a pretty good chance the Bulls won't play another game this year anyway. If so, they will probably play no more than 5-6 games (the only reason we're not jumping straight to playoffs is to hit TV games played milestones). I don't think these negatives are that meaningful.

I'm not saying we should keep him for the end of the season, I'm just saying if ownership said "we're not hiring a new coach for 5 games and we don't want to bother making Chris Flemming interim for 5 games" then that's also reasonable and doesn't say anything about AK or the power structure.

Also, when you consider that he has made it pretty clear that his first priority is to hire his GM, it also makes sense that replacing the HC would come after that step. This is also his opportunity to establish organizational processes to hire/develop the off-court exec team, so it makes a lot of sense that he would first hire his GM and assistant GM's so that this group can identify an organizational plan to match his strategy (whatever that might be).

[League Circles]

I heavily doubt Boylen will be back next year, but IF he is, it may simply be a case of AK thinking, you know what, this guy isn't actually bad, and I don't like the actual available candidates out there enough more than him to justify firing him, hiring them and then probably firing them in one year.

I like Boylen but since I basically didn't watch games this year I can't pretend to have much of a serious opinion on his coaching. But sometimes it makes sense to make do with what you have until you can find the right upgrade instead of making what you might see as a relatively small upgrade.

[greenl]

I understand AK has to be polite. I understand he is not going to speak ill of his coach at this time, and during the current cicumstances, I understand that he is not going to be making a decision on Boylen just yet.

But maaaaaan...

I am super uneasy about this. If Arturas can't figure out this this guy needs to be launched then I already have concerns about his judgement. I'm sure Jim is a nice guy. I will lose my mind if he gets to continue to coach this team.

I'm sure the glowing press AK is receiving is a lot of hype. Still, if he's as smart and meticulous as many are saying- he's already decided that Boylen is a buffoon who needs to go. I don't believe there is any chance Boylen is not fired inside the next 10 days.

[Sakkreth]

I understand AK has to be polite. I understand he is not going to speak ill of his coach at this time, and during the current cicumstances, I understand that he is not going to be making a decision on Boylen just yet.

But maaaaaan...

I am super uneasy about this. If Arturas can't figure out this this guy needs to be launched then I already have concerns about his judgement. I'm sure Jim is a nice guy. I will lose my mind if he gets to continue to coach this team.

I'm sure the glowing press AK is receiving is a lot of hype. Still, if he's as smart and meticulous as many are saying- he's already decided that Boylen is a buffoon who needs to go. I don't believe there is any chance Boylen is not fired inside the next 10 days.

10 days? Nah. Not that it couldn't happen, but AK's focus is elsewhere now. If you said next season, then yeah.
AK probably thinks that it will require to change the coach, but he's occupied with finding new GM and when time comes he will give a proper evaluation of the coaching staff and fire him 99.9%.

[dougthonus]

I'm wondering who the "heavy hitters" are in his corner. My guess is multiple players. Not sure who though. It would be disengenuous reporting to call Pax or Collins "heavy hitters" at this point.

I would imagine it's Paxson and possibly Michael Reinsdorf.

[dougthonus]

I don't believe there is any chance Boylen is not fired inside the next 10 days.

I'd be mildly surprised if he was fired in the next 10 days. None of the media that has come out would indicate that this will happen. He's talked at length about evaluating coaching later on down the road, and I don't see there being a need for urgency here.

[dougthonus]

One thing I think is that Bulls fans are simply impatient about firing Boylen.

It reminds me of all the news that broke months ago about the Bulls redoing the front office. Everything said the new guy will have full control and most reactions seemed to be "this will never happen" or "Paxson will still really be in charge". No one seemed content to wait and see what happens, but everyone jumped on the "This is bs" train right away.

Well as we see now, it wasn't BS. It worked out exactly how it said it would with someone new from the outside redoing the entire front office and Paxson involved but not in the power structure and willing to step aside.

Now with coaching, many people also seem super anxious to see this change happen immediately. There's no urgency around the timing now. Nothing is going to happen if they fire Boylen tomorrow vs in a month vs when the season ends. I'd be pretty surprised if Boylen were coaching the 20/21 Bulls but also pretty surprised if any decision is made about him until the NBA decides what its doing for this season.

[meekrab]

He gone like handshakes.

[siriusjames]

If Arturas is not allowed to fire this guy before next season, then either:

a) He has an awful judgment and will be no good, so I will not want him running the Bulls
b) All the change is just a PR stunt and he does not have any real responsibility. He should resign in this case to protect his image.

Come on.

If he has to wait until after the season to fire Boylen it doesn't mean anything. That's a totally reasonable thing for ownership to say to him.

I think you misunderstood me, or I should have worded it better. I meant "if he is not allowed to fire this guy and Boylen is still the HC come next season, Game 1", then either...

[Axolotl]

Before the training camp starts, there will be a new head coach, I don't have an ounce of doubt about that.

Kar and his crew will decide on the head coach when it fits them, and they are not going to choose to go forward with the worst head coach in living memory.

[Macallan]

Firing Boylen right now is all about optics for me. I don't believe he will be retained, but I also have zero faith in ownership not to do something completely asinine. I can't celebrate the GarPax exit nor put any faith in the new regime until Boylen is gone. I want that certainty.

[Michael Jackson]

Firing Boylen right now is all about optics for me. I don't believe he will be retained, but I also have zero faith in ownership not to do something completely asinine. I can't celebrate the GarPax exit nor put any faith in the new regime until Boylen is gone. I want that certainty.

I assume you didn't hear Michael Reinsdorfs interview this morning on the Score (which helped me hate him less) There is no chance based on that interview and the actual actions that have already happened that Boylen is retained. He laid out NO restrictions for AK when he took the job. NONE said his conversation was short that he told him to assemble his guys. If Boylen stayed it would only be because AK wanted him here and there is no reason to believe that he would. AK has a plan and targets, he has done a lot in a short period of time. He knows lots of people in the league and is going to make the right decisions. MR opened the purse strings to revamp and hire extra staff, silly to think they would spend a ton on the front office and not eat Boylen's 1.5 million bottom dollar salary.

[MrFortune3]

One thing I think is that Bulls fans are simply impatient about firing Boylen.

It reminds me of all the news that broke months ago about the Bulls redoing the front office. Everything said the new guy will have full control and most reactions seemed to be "this will never happen" or "Paxson will still really be in charge". No one seemed content to wait and see what happens, but everyone jumped on the "This is bs" train right away.

Well as we see now, it wasn't BS. It worked out exactly how it said it would with someone new from the outside redoing the entire front office and Paxson involved but not in the power structure and willing to step aside.

Now with coaching, many people also seem super anxious to see this change happen immediately. There's no urgency around the timing now. Nothing is going to happen if they fire Boylen tomorrow vs in a month vs when the season ends. I'd be pretty surprised if Boylen were coaching the 20/21 Bulls but also pretty surprised if any decision is made about him until the NBA decides what its doing for this season.

That's not even possible. He has stunk up the joint during his tenure, players have stunted or regressed under him and they hate him.

[League Circles]

One thing I think is that Bulls fans are simply impatient about firing Boylen.

It reminds me of all the news that broke months ago about the Bulls redoing the front office. Everything said the new guy will have full control and most reactions seemed to be "this will never happen" or "Paxson will still really be in charge". No one seemed content to wait and see what happens, but everyone jumped on the "This is bs" train right away.

Well as we see now, it wasn't BS. It worked out exactly how it said it would with someone new from the outside redoing the entire front office and Paxson involved but not in the power structure and willing to step aside.

Now with coaching, many people also seem super anxious to see this change happen immediately. There's no urgency around the timing now. Nothing is going to happen if they fire Boylen tomorrow vs in a month vs when the season ends. I'd be pretty surprised if Boylen were coaching the 20/21 Bulls but also pretty surprised if any decision is made about him until the NBA decides what its doing for this season.

That's not even possible. He has stunk up the joint during his tenure, players have stunted or regressed under him and they hate him.

A number of players have improved under him, such as Zach, Kris, and Coby.

[musiqsoulchild]

Come on.

If he has to wait until after the season to fire Boylen it doesn't mean anything. That's a totally reasonable thing for ownership to say to him.

Just one point to note Doug:

Boylen hasn't been a silent coach. He has been vocal to the media and has also been abrasive with the players.

I cannot see the advantage of keeping him outweighing the advantages of firing him and dialing in the season for a high pick.

The advantage to keeping him the rest of the season is marginal, but obvious. The last thing you want is an interim coach somehow gets these guys to appear to play well for 10 games or whatever and then you have misplaced public sentiment to keep that person.

I also don't understand the concept that firing him now helps our draft pick if you also think he sucks and should be fired.

I'm wondering who the "heavy hitters" are in his corner. My guess is multiple players. Not sure who though. It would be disengenuous reporting to call Pax or Collins "heavy hitters" at this point.

Who would possibly be the players that support Boylen? Honest question. Zach? Otto? Coby?

You pretty much articulated my thoughts and fears.

Why should we care what Zach, Coby or Otto think? I have a feeling everyone is up for a trade if the proposal is right.

The point I am trying to make is that people in general are motivated by self-preservation. If Boylen is nervous about his job, then you can bet your last cent that he will do everything in his power to self-preserve.

Wether that is through legitimate or under-handed means.

The risk assessment from my side is that a meaningless coach on a meaningless roster for a meaningless season shouldnt be worth the risk of potential sabotage and underhanded dealings by said coach/players in an attempt to self-preserve.

[dougthonus]

I think you misunderstood me, or I should have worded it better. I meant "if he is not allowed to fire this guy and Boylen is still the HC come next season, Game 1", then either...

You are right, my bad.

[musiqsoulchild]

Boylen hasn't been a silent coach. He has been vocal to the media and has also been abrasive with the players.

I cannot see the advantage of keeping him outweighing the advantages of firing him and dialing in the season for a high pick.

There's a pretty good chance the Bulls won't play another game this year anyway. If so, they will probably play no more than 5-6 games (the only reason we're not jumping straight to playoffs is to hit TV games played milestones). I don't think these negatives are that meaningful.

I'm not saying we should keep him for the end of the season, I'm just saying if ownership said "we're not hiring a new coach for 5 games and we don't want to bother making Chris Flemming interim for 5 games" then that's also reasonable and doesn't say anything about AK or the power structure.

Also, when you consider that he has made it pretty clear that his first priority is to hire his GM, it also makes sense that replacing the HC would come after that step. This is also his opportunity to establish organizational processes to hire/develop the off-court exec team, so it makes a lot of sense that he would first hire his GM and assistant GM's so that this group can identify an organizational plan to match his strategy (whatever that might be).

People have phones and they talk to each other. Guys like Travelle Gaines carry an outsized proportion of media perception of FO effectiveness versus the actual weight they carry.

I do not want anyone on the roster or the coaching staff that is not in AK's long term plans to be given any leeway to run a silent rebellion.

AK has ultimate power, but he doesnt need headaches and media questions about "Boylen said this..." Paxson said that" etc etc.

Kind of like how Trump was asking why Obama didnt endorse Biden. And Obama seeing that as a distraction, immediately came out and endorsed him. Ditto with Bernie and Warren.

The parallel being - you have to let the top dog focus on the big bone and not on mush.

[chicago paxsons]

One thing I think is that Bulls fans are simply impatient about firing Boylen.

It reminds me of all the news that broke months ago about the Bulls redoing the front office. Everything said the new guy will have full control and most reactions seemed to be "this will never happen" or "Paxson will still really be in charge". No one seemed content to wait and see what happens, but everyone jumped on the "This is bs" train right away.

Well as we see now, it wasn't BS. It worked out exactly how it said it would with someone new from the outside redoing the entire front office and Paxson involved but not in the power structure and willing to step aside.

Now with coaching, many people also seem super anxious to see this change happen immediately. There's no urgency around the timing now. Nothing is going to happen if they fire Boylen tomorrow vs in a month vs when the season ends. I'd be pretty surprised if Boylen were coaching the 20/21 Bulls but also pretty surprised if any decision is made about him until the NBA decides what its doing for this season.

That's not even possible. He has stunk up the joint during his tenure, players have stunted or regressed under him and they hate him.

A number of players have improved under him, such as Zach, Kris, and Coby.

A number of players, wendell, lauri, and thaddeus have regressed under him too. From what it looks like to me, he helps improve guards, but is cancer for big men. I understand each coach has their specialties, they may be better at improving some types of players as compared to others, but then if he was aware of his weakness then he should have hire an assistant coach who could properly develop big men.

I know he hired roy rogers, who was supposed to be good with big men, but i’ve seen no indication of any development from wendell or lauri when they actually played. Their skillsets seemed to shrink.