Image ImageImage Image

OT- The Last Dance documentary

Moderators: HomoSapien, dougthonus, kulaz3000, fleet, RedBulls23, Ice Man, Tommy Udo 6 , AshyLarrysDiaper, GimmeDat, DASMACKDOWN, Payt10

User avatar
Jo Jo English
RealGM
Posts: 15,252
And1: 3,186
Joined: Mar 29, 2007
Location: Vacation
     

Re: Game Six: The Movie - 8PM Central Time ESPN 

Post#1381 » by Jo Jo English » Thu May 21, 2020 3:00 am

HomoSapien wrote:BTW, I totally don't remember the Jazz having a trade for Rony Seikaly nixed that season. Seikaly always gave the Bulls issues and would have been huge for them if he were healthy.


Yeah, you and me both. That would have added a new wrinkle to this series that I am happy never came to fruition.
User avatar
HomoSapien
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 27,905
And1: 16,209
Joined: Aug 17, 2009
 

Re: Game Six: The Movie - 8PM Central Time ESPN 

Post#1382 » by HomoSapien » Thu May 21, 2020 3:17 am

Jo Jo English wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:BTW, I totally don't remember the Jazz having a trade for Rony Seikaly nixed that season. Seikaly always gave the Bulls issues and would have been huge for them if he were healthy.


Yeah, you and me both. That would have added a new wrinkle to this series that I am happy never came to fruition.


Apparently it was for Foster, Morris, and a 1st. He easily could have been the difference.
ThreeYearPlan wrote:Bulls fans defend HomoSapien more than Rose.
User avatar
Jo Jo English
RealGM
Posts: 15,252
And1: 3,186
Joined: Mar 29, 2007
Location: Vacation
     

Re: Game Six: The Movie - 8PM Central Time ESPN 

Post#1383 » by Jo Jo English » Thu May 21, 2020 3:24 am

I remember going out and smoking really cheap cigars with my older brother when they won that night.
User avatar
Repeat 3-peat
RealGM
Posts: 10,016
And1: 9,453
Joined: Nov 02, 2013
 

Re: Game Six: The Movie - 8PM Central Time ESPN 

Post#1384 » by Repeat 3-peat » Thu May 21, 2020 3:24 am

Read on Twitter


Still incredible to watch.
MrSparkle
RealGM
Posts: 15,519
And1: 5,163
Joined: Jul 31, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: Game Six: The Movie - 8PM Central Time ESPN 

Post#1385 » by MrSparkle » Thu May 21, 2020 3:39 am

Jo Jo English wrote:Looking at Jordan's career as a whole, it is crazy to think that outside of his own legendary performance in his last game with the team he mostly had to rely on contributions from the "poor man's Jordan" who was on that Cavs team that was on the receiving end of "The Shot", that dirty SOB from the Bad Boys who everyone in Chicago hated 8 years before, and Jerry Krause's European hand-picked post-MJ "future of the Bulls" who was despised by MJ/Pip for years (before they actually met him).


Ha, I have been thinking about each faced his wrath years prior.

Interestingly though MJ beat them all. He also took Byron Russell on his Wizards team in 02.
User avatar
HomoSapien
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 27,905
And1: 16,209
Joined: Aug 17, 2009
 

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1386 » by HomoSapien » Thu May 21, 2020 4:06 am

Dan Z wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:
Dan Z wrote:Does anyone remember when Horace Grant left the Bulls? I was a kid, but remember being disappointed that he left. I knew the Bulls would miss his rebounding and defense.

At that point I wrote him off because he left a great situation. However looking back I completely understand why he did it (it that was a big contract for that time).



He left a great situation but honestly went to a better one. Penny and Shaq was better than a Jordanless Bulls team. He did what FA’s do today but it wasn’t as common back then so it felt insulting.


I agree, but I was bummed that he left. I thought that in 1994 they overachieved, but were close and I was curious to see what they could do in 95.

Horace also gloated about his playoff victory in 95, so it made me like him less (although I don't blame him for it...most players would do the same).


If Shaq hadn't left Orlando, that move still may have paid off for Grant after 95. Orlando really felt like the next dynasty, and to this day, might be the most talented non-super-team team never to win.
ThreeYearPlan wrote:Bulls fans defend HomoSapien more than Rose.
dice
RealGM
Posts: 36,430
And1: 9,700
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: Game Six: The Movie - 8PM Central Time ESPN 

Post#1387 » by dice » Thu May 21, 2020 5:05 am

dougthonus wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:I sort of forgot how good Malone really was. I think he’s become pretty underrated historically.

Each possession feels like it’s a move in a chess match. Everything is more methodical.


Yeah, I think you could make a case that Malone is the best PF of all time, but you never hear about him.

i hear/see him mentioned as one of the GOAT PFs a fair amount. but part of the reason he's not in the GOAT conversation is that both he and stockton are amongst the worst decliners in league history when it comes to playoff performance vs regular season. per 36:

24/10, 58%ts malone reg
22/9 53%ts malone playoffs

15/12 61%ts stockton reg
14/10 57%ts stockton playoffs

also the jazz had 3 WCF losses prior to '97. they also were upset 3 times in the first round...

-SWEPT a 2 seed by run-TMC in the first round of the '89 playoffs after taking the eventual champion lakers to 7 the prior season

-in deciding game the following year they were taken out in the first round by the suns. at home. skip to 1:42:26 for final 2 minutes (jazz up 4 w/ ball):



-same result in '95 against defending champ rockets, blowing a 7 point lead midway through 4th. skip to 7:15 for rockets up 1 w/ 2 min remaining:



and, of course, their eventual breakthrough was terrible timing. the rockets averaged 49 wins from '89-'98. the jazz averaged 56. how do the legacies of malone and olajuwon differ if it is the jazz that happen to make the finals in '94 and '95 and the rockets in '97 and '98?
"all those muscles ain't gonna help you tonight. i'm gonna bust you up" - larry bird to rookie anthony mason before going for 29/18/11
User avatar
prolific passer
Junior
Posts: 475
And1: 132
Joined: Mar 11, 2009

Re: Game Six: The Movie - 8PM Central Time ESPN 

Post#1388 » by prolific passer » Thu May 21, 2020 5:10 am

Karl Malone just turned into a jump shooter for most of the playoffs but when he was attacking Bulls really had no answer for him. He just didn't do it enough.
RSP83
Analyst
Posts: 3,291
And1: 1,543
Joined: Sep 14, 2010
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
       

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1389 » by RSP83 » Thu May 21, 2020 6:21 am

HomoSapien wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:

He left a great situation but honestly went to a better one. Penny and Shaq was better than a Jordanless Bulls team. He did what FA’s do today but it wasn’t as common back then so it felt insulting.


I agree, but I was bummed that he left. I thought that in 1994 they overachieved, but were close and I was curious to see what they could do in 95.

Horace also gloated about his playoff victory in 95, so it made me like him less (although I don't blame him for it...most players would do the same).


If Shaq hadn't left Orlando, that move still may have paid off for Grant after 95. Orlando really felt like the next dynasty, and to this day, might be the most talented non-super-team team never to win.


Agree. That was a really good team in the making. Switch Brian Hill with Phil Jackson, the future would've been different for that team. But Penny had to stay healthy as well. Shaq and Penny was special, honestly I think had both get to see their peak together, it could've been more successful than Shaq and Kobe. Not saying Kobe is lesser than Penny, Kobe is clearly better player than Penny. But Penny was really good too, and I think he wouldn't mind taking a backseat to Shaq (Penny clarified this in his documentary).
Dan Z
General Manager
Posts: 8,246
And1: 3,051
Joined: Feb 19, 2002
Location: Chicago
 

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1390 » by Dan Z » Thu May 21, 2020 6:27 am

HomoSapien wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:

He left a great situation but honestly went to a better one. Penny and Shaq was better than a Jordanless Bulls team. He did what FA’s do today but it wasn’t as common back then so it felt insulting.


I agree, but I was bummed that he left. I thought that in 1994 they overachieved, but were close and I was curious to see what they could do in 95.

Horace also gloated about his playoff victory in 95, so it made me like him less (although I don't blame him for it...most players would do the same).


If Shaq hadn't left Orlando, that move still may have paid off for Grant after 95. Orlando really felt like the next dynasty, and to this day, might be the most talented non-super-team team never to win.


If Shaq stayed in Orlando they'd still need Penny to stay healthy. Otherwise I don't think they'd win a championship.
troza
Sophomore
Posts: 211
And1: 49
Joined: Aug 19, 2011
   

Re: Game Six: The Movie - 8PM Central Time ESPN 

Post#1391 » by troza » Thu May 21, 2020 7:18 am

Repeat 3-peat wrote:
Read on Twitter


That is just ridiculous.

But sound just right having watched the whole playoffs. 4th quarter was Jordan time for good or bad and that team was heavily dependent on his play.
troza
Sophomore
Posts: 211
And1: 49
Joined: Aug 19, 2011
   

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1392 » by troza » Thu May 21, 2020 7:57 am

Dan Z wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
I agree, but I was bummed that he left. I thought that in 1994 they overachieved, but were close and I was curious to see what they could do in 95.

Horace also gloated about his playoff victory in 95, so it made me like him less (although I don't blame him for it...most players would do the same).


If Shaq hadn't left Orlando, that move still may have paid off for Grant after 95. Orlando really felt like the next dynasty, and to this day, might be the most talented non-super-team team never to win.


If Shaq stayed in Orlando they'd still need Penny to stay healthy. Otherwise I don't think they'd win a championship.


Penny was injured and came back to early and got another if I'm not mistaken.

If we look with today's glasses, if Shaq was there maybe he wouldn't come back too soon as it didn't make sense... but... if we look with the 90s glasses... I do believe that he would try to come back as soon as he did... because the decision making was a bit different. More about the right here and right now than looking at the bigger picture.
Jeffster81
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,802
And1: 942
Joined: May 24, 2007
Location: Bazinga
       

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1393 » by Jeffster81 » Thu May 21, 2020 10:19 am

The best move/non-move Krause made during that run was the non-trading of Scottie Pippen. I've seen multiple proposals.

Pippen for Kemp and Rick Pierce.
Pippen for McGrady
Pippen/Longley for 3/6 from Boston or #3 and Walker (smh at 3 and walker)
Pippen for Thunder Dan, Wesley Person and Two first.

Supposedly Clippers had the makings of a deal that including two firsts but nothing else has been concrete on that offer.

Favorite Idea. Mine is Pippen for McGrady.
Least Favorite: PHX Suns idea. That deal hinge on those two firsts and with Barkley/Pippen/Johnson/young Finley, those first would be late in the first rd.

How gung-ho were the Spurs on taking Duncan? Could the Bulls gotten the pick for a deal built around Pippen?
Goodbye....Someday.
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 46,615
And1: 6,819
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:

Re: Game Six: The Movie - 8PM Central Time ESPN 

Post#1394 » by dougthonus » Thu May 21, 2020 10:26 am

I'm 5 minutes into this and it's borderline unwatchable because you can tell they cropped a 4:3 image to make it 16:9 and didn't have a 16:9 recording.
troza
Sophomore
Posts: 211
And1: 49
Joined: Aug 19, 2011
   

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1395 » by troza » Thu May 21, 2020 10:59 am

Jeffster81 wrote:The best move/non-move Krause made during that run was the non-trading of Scottie Pippen. I've seen multiple proposals.

Pippen for Kemp and Rick Pierce.
Pippen for McGrady
Pippen/Longley for 3/6 from Boston or #3 and Walker (smh at 3 and walker)
Pippen for Thunder Dan, Wesley Person and Two first.

Supposedly Clippers had the makings of a deal that including two firsts but nothing else has been concrete on that offer.

Favorite Idea. Mine is Pippen for McGrady.
Least Favorite: PHX Suns idea. That deal hinge on those two firsts and with Barkley/Pippen/Johnson/young Finley, those first would be late in the first rd.

How gung-ho were the Spurs on taking Duncan? Could the Bulls gotten the pick for a deal built around Pippen?


In what year was that Boston trade?

And Pippen for McGrady with nothing more in there? Seems strange but now that we know what happened that is the most interesting one so far.

The thing with the Spurs is a big what if but I don't know if there ever was a small chance of them accepting trading an injured Pippen for Duncan for a win-now strategy to go with David Robinson and Pippen, mainly when one all time great center is great... but two is amazing! And from what I remember, once they met Duncan they wanted him on the team.


In the end, I agree that the non-trading of Pippen was one of the defining things that happened for us. Not only in going for more years but also was a set back in our rebuilding process later. Still... number 6 beats anything that wasn't winning at least number 6... at it was unlikely for that to happen in any scenario.
troza
Sophomore
Posts: 211
And1: 49
Joined: Aug 19, 2011
   

Re: Game Six: The Movie - 8PM Central Time ESPN 

Post#1396 » by troza » Thu May 21, 2020 11:08 am

dice wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:I sort of forgot how good Malone really was. I think he’s become pretty underrated historically.

Each possession feels like it’s a move in a chess match. Everything is more methodical.


Yeah, I think you could make a case that Malone is the best PF of all time, but you never hear about him.

i hear/see him mentioned as one of the GOAT PFs a fair amount. but part of the reason he's not in the GOAT conversation is that both he and stockton are amongst the worst decliners in league history when it comes to playoff performance vs regular season. per 36:

24/10, 58%ts malone reg
22/9 53%ts malone playoffs

15/12 61%ts stockton reg
14/10 57%ts stockton playoffs

also the jazz had 3 WCF losses prior to '97. they also were upset 3 times in the first round...

-SWEPT a 2 seed by run-TMC in the first round of the '89 playoffs after taking the eventual champion lakers to 7 the prior season

-in deciding game the following year they were taken out in the first round by the suns. at home. skip to 1:42:26 for final 2 minutes (jazz up 4 w/ ball):



-same result in '95 against defending champ rockets, blowing a 7 point lead midway through 4th. skip to 7:15 for rockets up 1 w/ 2 min remaining:



and, of course, their eventual breakthrough was terrible timing. the rockets averaged 49 wins from '89-'98. the jazz averaged 56. how do the legacies of malone and olajuwon differ if it is the jazz that happen to make the finals in '94 and '95 and the rockets in '97 and '98?


Malone entered the 98 finals with nice numbers but he only played well in games 3, 5 and 6... and even in game 6 he had 20 points at halftime (if I'm not mistaken) and then... puff... only jumpshots when he made a fantastic first half.


dumbell78 wrote:That Dick Bavetta call waving off the 3 would be huge in this game.


That wasn't the only bad call:
- Ron Harper buried a 2 pointer later that could have been a shot clock violation
- Rodman catching a ball and not being able to get position (offensive foul wrongly called against the Bulls)
- The wrestling sequence between Rodman and Malone is something that still bothers me today on how it was a Rodman foul only... at least a doube foul. But when they called the foul, Rodman was on the floor. It should have been a double technical or a double foul but not a foul on Rodman when Malone wasn't inocent in that.

Then there are other things that I still have some doubts (lack of quality of my video or knowledge):
- Stocktons final 3... It seems that his foot is slightly on the line
- Kerr offensive foul where he has the ball and actually being used as a screen (the portuguese commentator didn't agree with the call... but Doug Collins agreed)

And let's not forget of all people saying that Jordan pushed Russel.
weneeda2guard
Head Coach
Posts: 6,977
And1: 2,751
Joined: Feb 07, 2011

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1397 » by weneeda2guard » Thu May 21, 2020 11:47 am

Jeffster81 wrote:The best move/non-move Krause made during that run was the non-trading of Scottie Pippen. I've seen multiple proposals.

Pippen for Kemp and Rick Pierce.
Pippen for McGrady
Pippen/Longley for 3/6 from Boston or #3 and Walker (smh at 3 and walker)
Pippen for Thunder Dan, Wesley Person and Two first.

Supposedly Clippers had the makings of a deal that including two firsts but nothing else has been concrete on that offer.

Favorite Idea. Mine is Pippen for McGrady.
Least Favorite: PHX Suns idea. That deal hinge on those two firsts and with Barkley/Pippen/Johnson/young Finley, those first would be late in the first rd.

How gung-ho were the Spurs on taking Duncan? Could the Bulls gotten the pick for a deal built around Pippen?

The deal i did like for pippen

The Seattle deal for Kemp and pierce. But it was another piece to that deal. The bulls were going to get the right to swap picks with Seattle. The bulls had the 21st pick and Seattle had 11th. Krause was going to take jalen rose with the pick. So it was basically Kemp pierce and rose. Pierce was a former NBA 6th man of the year with the bucks and all star with the sonics in 91 , kemp we end up seeing in the finals a couple years later and rose we know had a really great career. Imagine Jordan coming back to that squad in 95 Jordan rose pierce kemp longley kukoc kerr and let's say krause still does that rodman deal and Ron harper.

Not only do I think that team wins the next 4 rings with jordan but they would have still had pieces in place once jordan decides to retire.
"they taking rose kindness for a weakness"
troza
Sophomore
Posts: 211
And1: 49
Joined: Aug 19, 2011
   

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1398 » by troza » Thu May 21, 2020 11:55 am

weneeda2guard wrote:
Jeffster81 wrote:The best move/non-move Krause made during that run was the non-trading of Scottie Pippen. I've seen multiple proposals.

Pippen for Kemp and Rick Pierce.
Pippen for McGrady
Pippen/Longley for 3/6 from Boston or #3 and Walker (smh at 3 and walker)
Pippen for Thunder Dan, Wesley Person and Two first.

Supposedly Clippers had the makings of a deal that including two firsts but nothing else has been concrete on that offer.

Favorite Idea. Mine is Pippen for McGrady.
Least Favorite: PHX Suns idea. That deal hinge on those two firsts and with Barkley/Pippen/Johnson/young Finley, those first would be late in the first rd.

How gung-ho were the Spurs on taking Duncan? Could the Bulls gotten the pick for a deal built around Pippen?

The deal i did like for pippen

The Seattle deal for Kemp and pierce. But it was another piece to that deal. The bulls were going to get the right to swap picks with Seattle. The bulls had the 21st pick and Seattle had 11th. Krause was going to take jalen rose with the pick. So it was basically Kemp pierce and rose. Pierce was a former NBA 6th man of the year with the bucks and all star with the sonics in 91 , kemp we end up seeing in the finals a couple years later and rose we know had a really great career. Imagine Jordan coming back to that squad in 95 Jordan rose pierce kemp longley kukoc kerr and let's say krause still does that rodman deal and Ron harper.

Not only do I think that team wins the next 4 rings with jordan but they would have still had pieces in place once jordan decides to retire.


There is no way we would get Rodman if we had a starting PF that played like Kemp (if he played at the same level he did for Seatle in 95 and 96).
User avatar
Michael Jackson
RealGM
Posts: 15,002
And1: 1,752
Joined: Jun 15, 2001

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1399 » by Michael Jackson » Thu May 21, 2020 12:59 pm

troza wrote:
weneeda2guard wrote:
Jeffster81 wrote:The best move/non-move Krause made during that run was the non-trading of Scottie Pippen. I've seen multiple proposals.

Pippen for Kemp and Rick Pierce.
Pippen for McGrady
Pippen/Longley for 3/6 from Boston or #3 and Walker (smh at 3 and walker)
Pippen for Thunder Dan, Wesley Person and Two first.

Supposedly Clippers had the makings of a deal that including two firsts but nothing else has been concrete on that offer.

Favorite Idea. Mine is Pippen for McGrady.
Least Favorite: PHX Suns idea. That deal hinge on those two firsts and with Barkley/Pippen/Johnson/young Finley, those first would be late in the first rd.

How gung-ho were the Spurs on taking Duncan? Could the Bulls gotten the pick for a deal built around Pippen?

The deal i did like for pippen

The Seattle deal for Kemp and pierce. But it was another piece to that deal. The bulls were going to get the right to swap picks with Seattle. The bulls had the 21st pick and Seattle had 11th. Krause was going to take jalen rose with the pick. So it was basically Kemp pierce and rose. Pierce was a former NBA 6th man of the year with the bucks and all star with the sonics in 91 , kemp we end up seeing in the finals a couple years later and rose we know had a really great career. Imagine Jordan coming back to that squad in 95 Jordan rose pierce kemp longley kukoc kerr and let's say krause still does that rodman deal and Ron harper.

Not only do I think that team wins the next 4 rings with jordan but they would have still had pieces in place once jordan decides to retire.


There is no way we would get Rodman if we had a starting PF that played like Kemp (if he played at the same level he did for Seatle in 95 and 96).



That is true but if you have prime Kemp and Jalen whom are both whipped into shape by MJ do you need Rodman?
troza
Sophomore
Posts: 211
And1: 49
Joined: Aug 19, 2011
   

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1400 » by troza » Thu May 21, 2020 1:21 pm

Michael Jackson wrote:
troza wrote:
weneeda2guard wrote:The deal i did like for pippen

The Seattle deal for Kemp and pierce. But it was another piece to that deal. The bulls were going to get the right to swap picks with Seattle. The bulls had the 21st pick and Seattle had 11th. Krause was going to take jalen rose with the pick. So it was basically Kemp pierce and rose. Pierce was a former NBA 6th man of the year with the bucks and all star with the sonics in 91 , kemp we end up seeing in the finals a couple years later and rose we know had a really great career. Imagine Jordan coming back to that squad in 95 Jordan rose pierce kemp longley kukoc kerr and let's say krause still does that rodman deal and Ron harper.

Not only do I think that team wins the next 4 rings with jordan but they would have still had pieces in place once jordan decides to retire.


There is no way we would get Rodman if we had a starting PF that played like Kemp (if he played at the same level he did for Seatle in 95 and 96).



That is true but if you have prime Kemp and Jalen whom are both whipped into shape by MJ do you need Rodman?


I don't know if they would be shaped. Maybe they couldn't hang with Michael or so. But Rodman... I think that we would always need him. A guy that could defend and rebound like that while being a good guy for the triangle? The thing is that it would be not worth the risk like it was at that time.

Mainly when that team would be weaker defensively that we were. In offense I can see Jordan/Rose/Kukoc being able to organize the triangle (and having Jordan there made sense with Kemp working on the post more while with our team you would want Jordan on the post more than anyone else) but on defense... we would loose too much. Pippen and Rodman out... oh my.

And the original poster told the main thing we must think about: would Jordan return without Pippen here? Probably but even so...

Return to Chicago Bulls