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OT- The Last Dance documentary

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Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1421 » by MrSparkle » Sun May 24, 2020 12:21 am

erlim wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:
troza wrote:
I don't know if they would be shaped. Maybe they couldn't hang with Michael or so. But Rodman... I think that we would always need him. A guy that could defend and rebound like that while being a good guy for the triangle? The thing is that it would be not worth the risk like it was at that time.

Mainly when that team would be weaker defensively that we were. In offense I can see Jordan/Rose/Kukoc being able to organize the triangle (and having Jordan there made sense with Kemp working on the post more while with our team you would want Jordan on the post more than anyone else) but on defense... we would loose too much. Pippen and Rodman out... oh my.

And the original poster told the main thing we must think about: would Jordan return without Pippen here? Probably but even so...




With Kemp's skill set I think MJ would have been perfect to whip into shape, who knows he might have been broken and devolved into an alcoholic sooner... MJ to me definitely would have made Jalen better, but young Jalen and older Jalen was pretty cocky, still it is Jordan and he did command respect. The Defense would have suffered for sure, but it can be argued that Jalen on offense would have been a better point forward than Pippen. You would have to assume that Jalen would have been forced into being a better defensive player too. Maybe they find a way to get Jayson Williams still to which was always a thing. I do see a longer run with that team where it is easier to move the pieces, but not ever as dominate.


We got a real close look at Jalen Rose for years and it was so awful.


Yeah. Honestly I think MJ would've shredded him into pieces, it wouldn't have worked out. Jalen's career playoff numbers were big drops from his regular season digits. He was just a very soft player. Fit Indiana well. Filling Scottie's shoes? No way...
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Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1422 » by MrSparkle » Sun May 24, 2020 12:41 am

dice wrote:


Good watch.

Craig and Bill were older than MJ. Their relationship was totally different than all the younger guys. You can tell they get a kick out of the "larger than life" Jordan image. Horace is super salty. Right in the young cocky MJ fire, one of the younger guys on that team. I get it.

96-98 MJ was a different guy; more method to his madness. Ron's experience seemed vastly different. I will say, people in general are generally more likable as they get older. Become a hair more reasonable and mature.

But man .. the 91-93 crew. Hard love right there. :lol: Went pretty hard at MJ. I do wish Harper wasn't calling in from his tree house, his connection was horrible.
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Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1423 » by Dan Z » Sun May 24, 2020 2:16 am

MAQ wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
dice wrote:


It's funny that they keep saying that MJ called Pippen selfish (Horace says it a few times). Did they not watch the documentary? MJ called Pippen selfish because he elected not to have surgery in the offseason (instead he had surgery during the season and did so because he was upset about his contract). Jordan never calls him selfish during the Utah game when Pippen had a back injury. Doesn't he even praise him for going out there and playing?

The fact that people are implying Pippen wasnt selfish for his decision to delay surgery is mind boggling. Look at the reason he provided. He wasnt going to **** up his summer. What exactly would he have to say to get these folks to agree that it was a selfish decision?


The funny thing is that it gets twisted into saying that Pippen wasn't shown in a good light (in the series) or that Jordan didn't give him credit.
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Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1424 » by Dan Z » Sun May 24, 2020 2:19 am

MrSparkle wrote:
dice wrote:


Good watch.

Craig and Bill were older than MJ. Their relationship was totally different than all the younger guys. You can tell they get a kick out of the "larger than life" Jordan image. Horace is super salty. Right in the young cocky MJ fire, one of the younger guys on that team. I get it.

96-98 MJ was a different guy; more method to his madness. Ron's experience seemed vastly different. I will say, people in general are generally more likable as they get older. Become a hair more reasonable and mature.

But man .. the 91-93 crew. Hard love right there. :lol: Went pretty hard at MJ. I do wish Harper wasn't calling in from his tree house, his connection was horrible.


Tree house. haha.

Yeah I agree. I wanted to hear more from him. I got the feeling that when he came to the Bulls Jordan didn't bother him much and he just did his role (and perhaps got along with MJ?).
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Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1425 » by dice » Sun May 24, 2020 5:51 am

something i heard mentioned about "the flu game" that made sense to me was that it could very well have been altitude sickness. the team stayed in park city, which is at 7000 ft altitude as opposed to salt lake city's 4200. i once spent a day at 11000 altitude and was fine until i had spaghetti for dinner. a few bites in i knew i was in trouble. worst night of my life. the spaghetti wasn't the problem

then again, the "flu game" was game 5, which was their 3rd consecutive game in utah. i assume they stayed in park city that entire week. symptoms should have shown up shortly after arrival

either way, it seems very unlikely that the pizza was intentionally poisoned. i would think that would risk killing someone. and obviously it wasn't known who would be eating it
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Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1426 » by TeamMan » Sun May 24, 2020 8:21 am

dice wrote:something i heard mentioned about "the flu game" that made sense to me was that it could very well have been altitude sickness. the team stayed in park city, which is at 7000 ft altitude as opposed to salt lake city's 4200. i once spent a day at 11000 altitude and was fine until i had spaghetti for dinner. a few bites in i knew i was in trouble. worst night of my life. the spaghetti wasn't the problem

then again, the "flu game" was game 5, which was their 3rd consecutive game in utah. i assume they stayed in park city that entire week. symptoms should have shown up shortly after arrival

either way, it seems very unlikely that the pizza was intentionally poisoned. i would think that would risk killing someone. and obviously it wasn't known who would be eating it

I've read some pretty detailed descriptions about what happened with "the" pizza.

And what I recall is that after it was delivered, everyone else refused to eat any of it, MJ was the only one that went ahead and ate it. The reason was because there were 2 or 3 guys that delivered it, and they looked suspicious from their behavior. And, of course, MJ was the only one that got sick.

As far as poison is concerned, there are things that can make you really sick without killing you.

The amazing thing is that, he was able to even stand up without puking out his guts. His stomach must have been completely empty and they were feeding him liquids that went straight into his blood stream.
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Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1427 » by Dan Z » Mon May 25, 2020 2:40 am

I found this interview with Horace Grant on youtube. It says it was posted in 2015, but I'm not sure if that's the year it was filmed.

It's interesting to hear him talk in light of the things he's now saying after "The Last Dance".

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Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1428 » by rtblues » Mon May 25, 2020 7:52 am

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Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1429 » by MrSparkle » Mon May 25, 2020 12:21 pm

Dan Z wrote:I found this interview with Horace Grant on youtube. It says it was posted in 2015, but I'm not sure if that's the year it was filmed.

It's interesting to hear him talk in light of the things he's now saying after "The Last Dance".



I remember watching this one. Entirely in MJ’s favor.

I think the Sam Smith snitch accusation and Pippen’s negative portrayal are what set Horace off (and probably Pippen, who hasn’t gone public yet).
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Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1430 » by GetBuLLish » Mon May 25, 2020 1:35 pm

MrSparkle wrote:I remember watching this one. Entirely in MJ’s favor.

I think the Sam Smith snitch accusation and Pippen’s negative portrayal are what set Horace off (and probably Pippen, who hasn’t gone public yet).


I keep hearing about how negatively Pippen was portrayed, and I don't get it. The documentary showed him being a beast in college (one of the coolest parts of the doc, IMO, since i had never seen that footage), showed him improving significantly over the years and becoming one of the best players ever, showed him being laughably underpaid (making him more sympathetic), showed him playing at an MVP level the year after Jordan retired, showed him being universally lauded as a great teammate by numerous members of the team, and showed him toughing out Game 6 of the Finals with that back injury (I never realized how hampered he was).

Yes, the doc did also show some of the lowlights of his career (refusing to go in after the timeout, the migraine game, and purposely delaying surgery and missing months of the regular season), but did people want the filmmaker to ignore those storylines? They were significant moments from the dynasty.

I thought the documentary was very fair to Pippen. And at least for me, my appreciation for him grew after watching it.
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Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1431 » by DuckIII » Mon May 25, 2020 2:26 pm

Pippen is my favorite basketball player ever. By miles. And I agree that the documentary was very fair to him.

It seems like unfair is being defined as “didn’t ignore the negative.” And that’s not what unfairness means.
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Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1432 » by chitowndish » Mon May 25, 2020 2:47 pm

Pip did it to himself with his quote and I think Grant is ticked off that the story about MJ telling the stewardess to not serve Grant dinner because he had a crappy game. I don't think either has anything to do with the documentary. The Sam Smith thing, Grant is just showing that he can't stand Jordan with how he's lashing out which makes me think he is the leak even more, then the stuff about how great friends Grant is with Smith. Why? That whole thing just seemed really strange and just a strange pair to randomly hit it off and be great friends but have nothing to do with that.

When BJ said it was probably 2 people and one in the FO I pretty much immediately figured it was Grant and Krause and I think that's probably the reason MJ had such a strong distain for Krause. I can't think of any reason for it and that's about the time it started. They said the broken foot and tanking were why MJ was so ticked at Krause but I don't really buy that would cause that strong of a reaction (MJ wasn't ticked at Reinsdorf who was suggesting the same thing) but leaking stuff to Sam Smith I think would set MJ off.
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Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1433 » by MrSparkle » Mon May 25, 2020 2:54 pm

Yeah I don’t disagree. Pippen’s story was what it was; there were no surprises or revelations. It was ‘fair.’ I thought one thing that looked bad was the edit of his current interview, where he said “I’d do it again” (Kukoc shot, walk out). Pippen hasn’t been careful with his words in the past, and the director jumped on that opportunity IMO.

But I’ll double back that this documentary was supposed to make Jordan “look bad.” Quite frankly, it made him look absolutely better than ever. :lol: My younger sister who barely remembered the last championship beyond Rodman’s fun hair colors and the Utah fireworks came away with the conclusion that Pippen was very selfish, and MJ is the most inspirational athlete of all-time.

So what exactly made MJ look bad? Nothing really. Him yelling at guys, calling Burrell a hoe or crying about his intensity? I appreciate the dude, he’s the GOAT and I admire that work ethic. The documentary was awesome and entertaining. But there was absolutely nothing that made him look bad. Which brings back Ken Burns’ point...

Pippen on the other hand? The director majorly highlighted the 94 Kukoc debacle, of which Jordan wasn’t even on the team or involved in. They talked about the migraine and back games without getting Pippen’s modern interview on it. So while MJ was able to carefully interview, retort and edit every modern commentary about his blemishes, and get the “Last Word”, you can tell Pippen was interviewed a little more deer-in-headlights and the director grabbed snippets that hardly helped make him look any better (again, that comment “I would do it again” just seemed a little out of context - I don’t think Pippen would’ve approved it if he saw the final edit, because he basically says he’d quit on the team all over again cause he was right to follow his emotions).

Just saying - Rodman, MJ, Phil and Kerr looked great in the doc despite their “blemishes.” Pippen didn’t get the “spin” - he got the “fair” deal. Pretty much the only guy in the doc. Honestly, I think Isiah came off looking better than Pippen.
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Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1434 » by Dan Z » Mon May 25, 2020 6:52 pm

MrSparkle wrote:Yeah I don’t disagree. Pippen’s story was what it was; there were no surprises or revelations. It was ‘fair.’ I thought one thing that looked bad was the edit of his current interview, where he said “I’d do it again” (Kukoc shot, walk out). Pippen hasn’t been careful with his words in the past, and the director jumped on that opportunity IMO.

But I’ll double back that this documentary was supposed to make Jordan “look bad.” Quite frankly, it made him look absolutely better than ever. :lol: My younger sister who barely remembered the last championship beyond Rodman’s fun hair colors and the Utah fireworks came away with the conclusion that Pippen was very selfish, and MJ is the most inspirational athlete of all-time.

So what exactly made MJ look bad? Nothing really. Him yelling at guys, calling Burrell a hoe or crying about his intensity? I appreciate the dude, he’s the GOAT and I admire that work ethic. The documentary was awesome and entertaining. But there was absolutely nothing that made him look bad. Which brings back Ken Burns’ point...

Pippen on the other hand? The director majorly highlighted the 94 Kukoc debacle, of which Jordan wasn’t even on the team or involved in. They talked about the migraine and back games without getting Pippen’s modern interview on it. So while MJ was able to carefully interview, retort and edit every modern commentary about his blemishes, and get the “Last Word”, you can tell Pippen was interviewed a little more deer-in-headlights and the director grabbed snippets that hardly helped make him look any better (again, that comment “I would do it again” just seemed a little out of context - I don’t think Pippen would’ve approved it if he saw the final edit, because he basically says he’d quit on the team all over again cause he was right to follow his emotions).

Just saying - Rodman, MJ, Phil and Kerr looked great in the doc despite their “blemishes.” Pippen didn’t get the “spin” - he got the “fair” deal. Pretty much the only guy in the doc. Honestly, I think Isiah came off looking better than Pippen.


Who said that Jordan looked bad in the series? Or expected that? Most people I know have said it's Jordan propaganda. To a degree it is, but I think people overstate that.

I also think overall Pippen was shown in a fair light. Did you see all the talk on the General Board about him during the early episodes? Many people on RealGm talked about how Pippen was underrated and that Jordan's teammates were better than people give them credit for. Those conversations came about because of how well Pippen was shown in the series (early on).

Has anyone found a direct quote or video where Pippen talks about "The Last Dance"? I'm skeptical that he was actually upset about it.
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Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1435 » by dougthonus » Mon May 25, 2020 7:32 pm

DuckIII wrote:Pippen is my favorite basketball player ever. By miles. And I agree that the documentary was very fair to him.

It seems like unfair is being defined as “didn’t ignore the negative.” And that’s not what unfairness means.


I think what some might view as unfair is that the documentary was generally ignoring any negative around Jordan and not around other guys. That said, I don't think it was particularly unfair either.

I think they could have been a lot harder on Pippen and still been within the bands of fair.
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Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1436 » by GetBuLLish » Mon May 25, 2020 7:45 pm

MrSparkle wrote:But I’ll double back that this documentary was supposed to make Jordan “look bad.” Quite frankly, it made him look absolutely better than ever. :lol: My younger sister who barely remembered the last championship beyond Rodman’s fun hair colors and the Utah fireworks came away with the conclusion that Pippen was very selfish, and MJ is the most inspirational athlete of all-time.

So what exactly made MJ look bad? Nothing really. Him yelling at guys, calling Burrell a hoe or crying about his intensity? I appreciate the dude, he’s the GOAT and I admire that work ethic. The documentary was awesome and entertaining. But there was absolutely nothing that made him look bad. Which brings back Ken Burns’ point...


I've heard this complaint multiple times as well, but I haven't seen anyone plausibly explain what negative aspects of MJ's life/career that the documentary left out.

The documentary delved into criticisms about Jordan's gambling. I personally thought they spent too much time on this since I don't think it's a big deal at all that he liked to gamble outside of the game. Who cares if he threw thousands of dollars on golf games? Well enough people did care that apparently this was a significant controversy during his career, and the doc covered it.

The documentary delved deep into criticisms about how Jordan treated teammates (and Krause). It showed teammates calling him an a-hole, showed him yelling and chastising teammates, showed him talking crap about some teammates, and discussed the "revelations" from "Jordan Rules" that hit on these issues. In the end, though, most people generally set aside this critique of Jordan since the end result of Jordan's actions was excellence and championships.

And finally, the documentary discussed criticisms of Jordan not being politically active for liberal causes. In my opinion, this is such a ridiculous criticism that it shouldn't have taken up more than 5 minutes of the whole documentary, if that. Who the hell are people to demand that someone else (and for the most part someone they don't know) outspokenly advocate for the same causes they believe in? That's incredibly pretentious and narcissistic, IMO. But nevertheless, the doc covered this subject in depth; heck, it even included the friggin' former president of the U.S. chastising MJ for not being politically active.

So what else should the doc have covered? You can't just complain about how it did "absolutely nothing that made him look bad" without identifying the omissions. But the truth is that MJ's career is so damn pristine--relatively speaking in comparison to damn near every athlete ever--that you really have to nitpick (see above) to critique the guy.
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Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1437 » by dougthonus » Mon May 25, 2020 8:11 pm

dice wrote:


Can't say this group comes off real well in this interview outside of Bill Cartright.
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Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1438 » by MrSparkle » Mon May 25, 2020 8:42 pm

Dan Z wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:Yeah I don’t disagree. Pippen’s story was what it was; there were no surprises or revelations. It was ‘fair.’ I thought one thing that looked bad was the edit of his current interview, where he said “I’d do it again” (Kukoc shot, walk out). Pippen hasn’t been careful with his words in the past, and the director jumped on that opportunity IMO.

But I’ll double back that this documentary was supposed to make Jordan “look bad.” Quite frankly, it made him look absolutely better than ever. :lol: My younger sister who barely remembered the last championship beyond Rodman’s fun hair colors and the Utah fireworks came away with the conclusion that Pippen was very selfish, and MJ is the most inspirational athlete of all-time.

So what exactly made MJ look bad? Nothing really. Him yelling at guys, calling Burrell a hoe or crying about his intensity? I appreciate the dude, he’s the GOAT and I admire that work ethic. The documentary was awesome and entertaining. But there was absolutely nothing that made him look bad. Which brings back Ken Burns’ point...

Pippen on the other hand? The director majorly highlighted the 94 Kukoc debacle, of which Jordan wasn’t even on the team or involved in. They talked about the migraine and back games without getting Pippen’s modern interview on it. So while MJ was able to carefully interview, retort and edit every modern commentary about his blemishes, and get the “Last Word”, you can tell Pippen was interviewed a little more deer-in-headlights and the director grabbed snippets that hardly helped make him look any better (again, that comment “I would do it again” just seemed a little out of context - I don’t think Pippen would’ve approved it if he saw the final edit, because he basically says he’d quit on the team all over again cause he was right to follow his emotions).

Just saying - Rodman, MJ, Phil and Kerr looked great in the doc despite their “blemishes.” Pippen didn’t get the “spin” - he got the “fair” deal. Pretty much the only guy in the doc. Honestly, I think Isiah came off looking better than Pippen.


Who said that Jordan looked bad in the series? Or expected that? Most people I know have said it's Jordan propaganda. To a degree it is, but I think people overstate that.

I also think overall Pippen was shown in a fair light. Did you see all the talk on the General Board about him during the early episodes? Many people on RealGm talked about how Pippen was underrated and that Jordan's teammates were better than people give them credit for. Those conversations came about because of how well Pippen was shown in the series (early on).

Has anyone found a direct quote or video where Pippen talks about "The Last Dance"? I'm skeptical that he was actually upset about it.


I meant that before it was released, it was billed as a documentary that was gonna make MJ look bad.

https://sircharlesincharge.com/2020/04/16/michael-jordan-will-seem-like-horrible-guy-last-dance-documentary/
https://theathletic.com/1741609/

All we know right know is via Kaplan that Pippen is pissed. https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/scottie-pippen-beyond-livid-at-michael-jordan-for-portrayal-in-the-last-dance-report-says/ I guess we'll see his reaction later, but I highly doubt Pippen would be silent if he loved the documentary. He'd be getting interviewed like every other side character in the series (Kerr, Rodman, Isiah, Barkley, etc.).
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Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1439 » by MrSparkle » Mon May 25, 2020 8:49 pm

GetBuLLish wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:But I’ll double back that this documentary was supposed to make Jordan “look bad.” Quite frankly, it made him look absolutely better than ever. :lol: My younger sister who barely remembered the last championship beyond Rodman’s fun hair colors and the Utah fireworks came away with the conclusion that Pippen was very selfish, and MJ is the most inspirational athlete of all-time.

So what exactly made MJ look bad? Nothing really. Him yelling at guys, calling Burrell a hoe or crying about his intensity? I appreciate the dude, he’s the GOAT and I admire that work ethic. The documentary was awesome and entertaining. But there was absolutely nothing that made him look bad. Which brings back Ken Burns’ point...


I've heard this complaint multiple times as well, but I haven't seen anyone plausibly explain what negative aspects of MJ's life/career that the documentary left out.

The documentary delved into criticisms about Jordan's gambling. I personally thought they spent too much time on this since I don't think it's a big deal at all that he liked to gamble outside of the game. Who cares if he threw thousands of dollars on golf games? Well enough people did care that apparently this was a significant controversy during his career, and the doc covered it.

The documentary delved deep into criticisms about how Jordan treated teammates (and Krause). It showed teammates calling him an a-hole, showed him yelling and chastising teammates, showed him talking crap about some teammates, and discussed the "revelations" from "Jordan Rules" that hit on these issues. In the end, though, most people generally set aside this critique of Jordan since the end result of Jordan's actions was excellence and championships.

And finally, the documentary discussed criticisms of Jordan not being politically active for liberal causes. In my opinion, this is such a ridiculous criticism that it shouldn't have taken up more than 5 minutes of the whole documentary, if that. Who the hell are people to demand that someone else (and for the most part someone they don't know) outspokenly advocate for the same causes they believe in? That's incredibly pretentious and narcissistic, IMO. But nevertheless, the doc covered this subject in depth; heck, it even included the friggin' former president of the U.S. chastising MJ for not being politically active.

So what else should the doc have covered? You can't just complain about how it did "absolutely nothing that made him look bad" without identifying the omissions. But the truth is that MJ's career is so damn pristine--relatively speaking in comparison to damn near every athlete ever--that you really have to nitpick (see above) to critique the guy.


It's not about what was or wasn't covered. It's the fact that MJ got to respond and emotionally defend each of those things, whereas Pippen didn't.

The documentary was told through Jordan's post-processing filter, not Pippen's or any of the other guys. Not sure what's so hard to understand.

The director behind a documentary has a lot of power behind the delivery of the content, and he simply delivered Pippen less favorably than MJ and Phil. You know what would've been fair? If Pippen got an iPad of MJ calling him selfish for doing the surgery, and the director aired Pippen's reaction to that. MJ got to do look at Reinsdorf's and Payton's recent interviews, along Isiah and a few others.

But MJ was the one getting the iPad reaction with the "final word." LOL - look I love MJ, but if you're gonna do that, then it's not an unbiased documentary about MJ. Everybody else has to do their retorts on webcam/Youtube interviews without post-editing.
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Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1440 » by MrSparkle » Mon May 25, 2020 9:04 pm

dougthonus wrote:
dice wrote:


Can't say this group comes off real well in this interview outside of Bill Cartright.


I agree. Well Ron seemed the only reasonable guy on his assessment of Jordan, but then he seemed buzzed and had a horrible connection. But I can't believe these guys snickered and didn't even consider MJ for GOAT. Could've been a bit more respectful. I mean... Cartwright wins ZERO chips without MJ. He talk about almost winning 1 while he played baseball, but he didn't. With him, he won 6. So I wouldn't even say Cartwright came off looking well.

Horace especially - I'm gonna go off a limb and say he's gonna regret his tough man campaign. Fair to be upset about a few things and point them out, but straight out go to war like teenagers with MJ? Bad idea. I get the vibe he enjoyed getting some media spotlight again and wants to milk it for all its worth, re-live 1995 or something.

The one thing I'll say; I get the sense that Cartwright and Hodges were/are family men, not about the drink/party life-style. Perhaps they never wanted any part of "that" Mike.

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