Image ImageImage Image

OT- The Last Dance documentary

Moderators: HomoSapien, dougthonus, kulaz3000, fleet, RedBulls23, Ice Man, Tommy Udo 6 , AshyLarrysDiaper, GimmeDat, DASMACKDOWN, Payt10

dice
RealGM
Posts: 36,430
And1: 9,700
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1441 » by dice » Tue May 26, 2020 12:01 am

GetBuLLish wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:But I’ll double back that this documentary was supposed to make Jordan “look bad.” Quite frankly, it made him look absolutely better than ever. :lol: My younger sister who barely remembered the last championship beyond Rodman’s fun hair colors and the Utah fireworks came away with the conclusion that Pippen was very selfish, and MJ is the most inspirational athlete of all-time.

So what exactly made MJ look bad? Nothing really. Him yelling at guys, calling Burrell a hoe or crying about his intensity? I appreciate the dude, he’s the GOAT and I admire that work ethic. The documentary was awesome and entertaining. But there was absolutely nothing that made him look bad. Which brings back Ken Burns’ point...


I've heard this complaint multiple times as well, but I haven't seen anyone plausibly explain what negative aspects of MJ's life/career that the documentary left out.

The documentary delved into criticisms about Jordan's gambling. I personally thought they spent too much time on this since I don't think it's a big deal at all that he liked to gamble outside of the game. Who cares if he threw thousands of dollars on golf games? Well enough people did care that apparently this was a significant controversy during his career, and the doc covered it.

The documentary delved deep into criticisms about how Jordan treated teammates (and Krause). It showed teammates calling him an a-hole, showed him yelling and chastising teammates, showed him talking crap about some teammates, and discussed the "revelations" from "Jordan Rules" that hit on these issues. In the end, though, most people generally set aside this critique of Jordan since the end result of Jordan's actions was excellence and championships.

And finally, the documentary discussed criticisms of Jordan not being politically active for liberal causes. In my opinion, this is such a ridiculous criticism that it shouldn't have taken up more than 5 minutes of the whole documentary, if that. Who the hell are people to demand that someone else (and for the most part someone they don't know) outspokenly advocate for the same causes they believe in? That's incredibly pretentious and narcissistic, IMO. But nevertheless, the doc covered this subject in depth; heck, it even included the friggin' former president of the U.S. chastising MJ for not being politically active.

So what else should the doc have covered? You can't just complain about how it did "absolutely nothing that made him look bad" without identifying the omissions. But the truth is that MJ's career is so damn pristine--relatively speaking in comparison to damn near every athlete ever--that you really have to nitpick (see above) to critique the guy.

agree with this except for the political part. nobody demanded that jordan "outspokenly advocate for the same causes they believe in." and obama did not "chastise MJ for not being politically active." those are distortions. what WAS criticized is that he seemed to avoid addressing any and all social topics because it would hurt his earning power. speaking out against a blatantly racist senator from his home state seems like a pretty minimal sacrifice to business. who would hold it against a black man that he do that? the racists that probably weren't buying his shoes to begin with? good riddance to their business
"all those muscles ain't gonna help you tonight. i'm gonna bust you up" - larry bird to rookie anthony mason before going for 29/18/11
User avatar
firstDance
Ballboy
Posts: 12
And1: 19
Joined: Apr 29, 2020
 

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1442 » by firstDance » Tue May 26, 2020 2:40 am

MrSparkle wrote:
GetBuLLish wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:But I’ll double back that this documentary was supposed to make Jordan “look bad.” Quite frankly, it made him look absolutely better than ever. :lol: My younger sister who barely remembered the last championship beyond Rodman’s fun hair colors and the Utah fireworks came away with the conclusion that Pippen was very selfish, and MJ is the most inspirational athlete of all-time.

So what exactly made MJ look bad? Nothing really. Him yelling at guys, calling Burrell a hoe or crying about his intensity? I appreciate the dude, he’s the GOAT and I admire that work ethic. The documentary was awesome and entertaining. But there was absolutely nothing that made him look bad. Which brings back Ken Burns’ point...


I've heard this complaint multiple times as well, but I haven't seen anyone plausibly explain what negative aspects of MJ's life/career that the documentary left out.

The documentary delved into criticisms about Jordan's gambling. I personally thought they spent too much time on this since I don't think it's a big deal at all that he liked to gamble outside of the game. Who cares if he threw thousands of dollars on golf games? Well enough people did care that apparently this was a significant controversy during his career, and the doc covered it.

The documentary delved deep into criticisms about how Jordan treated teammates (and Krause). It showed teammates calling him an a-hole, showed him yelling and chastising teammates, showed him talking crap about some teammates, and discussed the "revelations" from "Jordan Rules" that hit on these issues. In the end, though, most people generally set aside this critique of Jordan since the end result of Jordan's actions was excellence and championships.

And finally, the documentary discussed criticisms of Jordan not being politically active for liberal causes. In my opinion, this is such a ridiculous criticism that it shouldn't have taken up more than 5 minutes of the whole documentary, if that. Who the hell are people to demand that someone else (and for the most part someone they don't know) outspokenly advocate for the same causes they believe in? That's incredibly pretentious and narcissistic, IMO. But nevertheless, the doc covered this subject in depth; heck, it even included the friggin' former president of the U.S. chastising MJ for not being politically active.

So what else should the doc have covered? You can't just complain about how it did "absolutely nothing that made him look bad" without identifying the omissions. But the truth is that MJ's career is so damn pristine--relatively speaking in comparison to damn near every athlete ever--that you really have to nitpick (see above) to critique the guy.


It's not about what was or wasn't covered. It's the fact that MJ got to respond and emotionally defend each of those things, whereas Pippen didn't.

The documentary was told through Jordan's post-processing filter, not Pippen's or any of the other guys. Not sure what's so hard to understand.

The director behind a documentary has a lot of power behind the delivery of the content, and he simply delivered Pippen less favorably than MJ and Phil. You know what would've been fair? If Pippen got an iPad of MJ calling him selfish for doing the surgery, and the director aired Pippen's reaction to that. MJ got to do look at Reinsdorf's and Payton's recent interviews, along Isiah and a few others.

But MJ was the one getting the iPad reaction with the "final word." LOL - look I love MJ, but if you're gonna do that, then it's not an unbiased documentary about MJ. Everybody else has to do their retorts on webcam/Youtube interviews without post-editing.

Pippen looks bad because his responses lacked reflection. He acted as if he were surprised by the topics. Buddy you had 20 years of hindsight to reach this point. What is your thought process. Even Rodman shared insight on specific plays. Pippen just came off shallow depth IMO
User avatar
dumbell78
General Manager
Posts: 8,635
And1: 4,992
Joined: Apr 03, 2012
Location: Sydney, Aus. by way of Muddy Water land (Chicago)
       

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1443 » by dumbell78 » Tue May 26, 2020 5:06 am

MrSparkle wrote:
dice wrote:


Good watch.

Craig and Bill were older than MJ. Their relationship was totally different than all the younger guys. You can tell they get a kick out of the "larger than life" Jordan image. Horace is super salty. Right in the young cocky MJ fire, one of the younger guys on that team. I get it.

96-98 MJ was a different guy; more method to his madness. Ron's experience seemed vastly different. I will say, people in general are generally more likable as they get older. Become a hair more reasonable and mature.

But man .. the 91-93 crew. Hard love right there. :lol: Went pretty hard at MJ. I do wish Harper wasn't calling in from his tree house, his connection was horrible.


Just watched it, good watch. I get the sense that Craig and Horace were super salty, Bill was trying to keep it positive like he said. Ron is very laid back and just talking giving his honest opinions.

Horace came off almost phony at times. Think the beers must have been kicking in there. Saying he would have ended MJ's career and what not, please man that wasn't happening and he knew it. It was some salty banter and all but Horace is taking things out of context and wanting to be angry at MJ, I get it. For example MJ didn't say Scottie was selfish in general, he said not getting that ankle surgery in the summer so he could chill and enjoy the break was selfish. MJ was right and everybody knows it. Simple things like that annoy me, Horace knows better.

Also as a whole I didn't get the view that Scottie was a negative coming out of the doc. I thought episode #2 was one of my favs in the series, loved the Scottie background and detail. Gave insight to what his mind frame was and why he was so worried about his $$. Overall it was sympathetic to him IMO. The migraine, ankle surgery/contract, 1.8 seconds, etc. That is all factual and important to note when talking about Scottie as a Bull. It speaks for itself and he looked stupid doubling down after all these years on the 1.8 seconds. That's on Scottie, why are you blaming MJ for that?

Certain guys have an axe to grind and are happy to get some shine after this doc to do just that. I get they didn't get any shine playing with MJ but man you certainly weren't going to be getting shine with this doc. Overall I couldn't take much from the guys, just enjoyed it for what it is. They (less Bill and Ron) fed into Kaplan egging them on too, which was so predictable.
KC: Do you still think you're a championship-caliber team?
Gar: I never said that and correct me if I'm wrong.
KC: You were asked that question at the news conference announcing Thibodeau's dismissal and you answered yes
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 46,615
And1: 6,819
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1444 » by dougthonus » Tue May 26, 2020 10:48 am

firstDance wrote:Pippen looks bad because his responses lacked reflection. He acted as if he were surprised by the topics. Buddy you had 20 years of hindsight to reach this point. What is your thought process. Even Rodman shared insight on specific plays. Pippen just came off shallow depth IMO


I hear you, but if you had a professional team with Pippen and his ipad post editing, reflecting on his quotes, and giving him as many takes as he wants for it to play out perfectly then I think he'd probably do better. Same with everyone else.

Take Horace's reaction about Jordan taking his food. It was actually totally reasonable, but it came off as really petty. A professional team working with Horace and doing post editing would have made him come off as funny rather than petty and got the same story out.

With professional advise, these guys probably would have been coached not to go down the "it was team effort and Jordan wasn't so great" route. It's just a story that was ever going to play out well publicly.

I don't really feel worse about any of these guys, I know that their feathers were ruffled and justifiably so throughout this.
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 46,615
And1: 6,819
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1445 » by dougthonus » Tue May 26, 2020 10:51 am

GetBuLLish wrote:So what else should the doc have covered? You can't just complain about how it did "absolutely nothing that made him look bad" without identifying the omissions. But the truth is that MJ's career is so damn pristine--relatively speaking in comparison to damn near every athlete ever--that you really have to nitpick (see above) to critique the guy.


If you want to nit pick, you could note that they have MJ mocking the drug/womanizing side of the NBA, when he ended up in the same boat in his career. Maybe he didn't join in the Bulls traveling cocaine circus, but he led his own circus as time went on and acted like he was above all of that.
troza
Sophomore
Posts: 211
And1: 49
Joined: Aug 19, 2011
   

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1446 » by troza » Tue May 26, 2020 11:20 am

dougthonus wrote:
GetBuLLish wrote:So what else should the doc have covered? You can't just complain about how it did "absolutely nothing that made him look bad" without identifying the omissions. But the truth is that MJ's career is so damn pristine--relatively speaking in comparison to damn near every athlete ever--that you really have to nitpick (see above) to critique the guy.


If you want to nit pick, you could note that they have MJ mocking the drug/womanizing side of the NBA, when he ended up in the same boat in his career. Maybe he didn't join in the Bulls traveling cocaine circus, but he led his own circus as time went on and acted like he was above all of that.


Although that could be done, I will have one question:

- Do we want the dirt on Jordan? Or did we want a documentary on the last dance of the Chicago Bulls?

I still haven't seen it but from what I read I would expect more from the last season. The players reaction of things going wrong at the start of the season, on the reaction of the return of Pippen (we only got Rodman asking for holidays), images of the locker room and reactions to the playoffs wins and losses (or even at the halftime or before the games). Also more information on the breakup (I don't know if the cameras were still around for that), including the point of view of other players like Kukoc, Longley and everyone else. That would have been amazing.

So... more things about Jordan and the things he didn't do well or more about the Bulls? Decide! I wanted the second. I'm a fan of their basketball, not of their lifes.

Also from what I've read (I can be very wrong), people keep using the Scottie Pippen selfish quote wrongly. The clip I saw somewhere here was Jordan saying that he understood why he did it but he made a selfish decision or something like that. We all agree that Pippen, no matter if we think he was right or wrong about his contract, he made a selfish decision. And if someone can say that is Jordan that went through a similar situation with his contract (although he retired in the middle and kept getting paid). And I don't see why there is a big noise about this as we all know how everyone feels/felt when Shaq did it a few years latter.

(And Pippen shouldn't have said that he would do everything again...).

As bonus episodes I would love to see at least one part about the follow up of that break up. That could tell us how special that run was for all the players, as some of them actually were successfull after that (Phil Jackson is the obvious name, but Kerr and Harper were champions for other clubs, Pippen had a good run with the Blazers and returned to Chicago, Longley still had 2 kind of good years in Phoenix, Kukoc struggled a bit after leaving Chicago... Even Jordan that came back...) as well as the way Reinsendorf (and Krause, if there is any footage) and other guys that were on the Bulls (Cartwright) lived the after-dynasty years.
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 46,615
And1: 6,819
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1447 » by dougthonus » Tue May 26, 2020 1:52 pm

troza wrote:Although that could be done, I will have one question:

- Do we want the dirt on Jordan? Or did we want a documentary on the last dance of the Chicago Bulls?


I don't want dirt on Jordan, and it was not my point to say this should be included. It was an example of the bias of the doc. You have Jordan ripping on this team for drugs/women when he was also all about that life shortly afterwards if not then. I didn't need the doc to go into that, but I can roll my eyes about Jordan acting like he's this super squeaky clean guy in the doc.

There are other examples of this too. The doc was put out to put Jordan in the best possible light and not to be an unbiased view.

Has there been a Bull that watched the doc and thought they were well represented? It seems like more or less everyone in the dynasty is pissed about this, but none of them have a relationship with Jordan anymore anyway (which is its own interesting thing that Jordan won 6 titles and no one from those teams is in his friend circle).
MrSparkle
RealGM
Posts: 15,519
And1: 5,163
Joined: Jul 31, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1448 » by MrSparkle » Tue May 26, 2020 2:40 pm

dougthonus wrote:
troza wrote:Although that could be done, I will have one question:

- Do we want the dirt on Jordan? Or did we want a documentary on the last dance of the Chicago Bulls?


I don't want dirt on Jordan, and it was not my point to say this should be included. It was an example of the bias of the doc. You have Jordan ripping on this team for drugs/women when he was also all about that life shortly afterwards if not then. I didn't need the doc to go into that, but I can roll my eyes about Jordan acting like he's this super squeaky clean guy in the doc.

There are other examples of this too. The doc was put out to put Jordan in the best possible light and not to be an unbiased view.

Has there been a Bull that watched the doc and thought they were well represented? It seems like more or less everyone in the dynasty is pissed about this, but none of them have a relationship with Jordan anymore anyway (which is its own interesting thing that Jordan won 6 titles and no one from those teams is in his friend circle).


Well said.

And it didn’t bother me while watching it, because it was a very fun series, but in the aftermath, I did want more 1998 behind-the-scenes clips (aren’t there “500 hours previously unreleased footage” of the entire team?), and a little more about Ron, Toni, and Luc.

Kerr got more screen-time and backstory than those three. I know he’s the most relevant today, and he hit a big shot in 97 (mind you, not during the “last dance”), but he was a spot-up shooter off the bench - 7th man, and certainly had less voice on that team that atleast 6 players and the coaching staff.

In hindsight, Jordan was the producer. I’m left wanting more, but unfortunately it seems like MJ will control what comes out from that vault of video reel.

We heard about the intensity of the practices, but we really didn’t get a lot of it. I wanted to see atleast 10 full minutes of scrimmages and in-practice competition throughout the 10 hours. We basically got 20-30 second cuts of them sprinting or huddling.

Oh well. Again - I enjoyed it. Director did a good job making a Jordan Last Dance film that appeases mostly everybody (hardcore Bulls fans, new fans, casuals). But from a documentary/journalistic POV, it’s flawed.
GetBuLLish
General Manager
Posts: 8,698
And1: 2,291
Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1449 » by GetBuLLish » Tue May 26, 2020 3:16 pm

dougthonus wrote:
GetBuLLish wrote:So what else should the doc have covered? You can't just complain about how it did "absolutely nothing that made him look bad" without identifying the omissions. But the truth is that MJ's career is so damn pristine--relatively speaking in comparison to damn near every athlete ever--that you really have to nitpick (see above) to critique the guy.


If you want to nit pick, you could note that they have MJ mocking the drug/womanizing side of the NBA, when he ended up in the same boat in his career. Maybe he didn't join in the Bulls traveling cocaine circus, but he led his own circus as time went on and acted like he was above all of that.


I don't know what you're actually referring to. Was MJ doing drugs during the season? That would be news to me.
The Bulls have one the three worst owners and one of the five worst front offices in the league. So strap on your seat belts because this "rebuild" is going to be one very long ride.
GetBuLLish
General Manager
Posts: 8,698
And1: 2,291
Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1450 » by GetBuLLish » Tue May 26, 2020 3:35 pm

MrSparkle wrote:It's not about what was or wasn't covered. It's the fact that MJ got to respond and emotionally defend each of those things, whereas Pippen didn't.

The documentary was told through Jordan's post-processing filter, not Pippen's or any of the other guys. Not sure what's so hard to understand.

The director behind a documentary has a lot of power behind the delivery of the content, and he simply delivered Pippen less favorably than MJ and Phil. You know what would've been fair? If Pippen got an iPad of MJ calling him selfish for doing the surgery, and the director aired Pippen's reaction to that. MJ got to do look at Reinsdorf's and Payton's recent interviews, along Isiah and a few others.

But MJ was the one getting the iPad reaction with the "final word." LOL - look I love MJ, but if you're gonna do that, then it's not an unbiased documentary about MJ. Everybody else has to do their retorts on webcam/Youtube interviews without post-editing.


So your biggest qualm is that Pippen didn't get to do the iPad reactions...I hope you understand how incredibly petty that is.

Keep in mind that the documentary wasn't created to satisfy McSparkle. It was created to satisfy the general audience. And the vast, vast, vast majority of the general audience was massively more interested in what MJ had to say than any other member of the Bulls organization. So it shouldn't be a shock or a disappointment that MJ got more air time and more opportunity to address certain subjects. The director had only so much time to navigate a broad array of storylines and events. And he did a great at that, capturing the backgrounds of Pippen, Rodman, Phil, Steve Kerr, etc. But the main attraction was MJ and the director would have been foolish to think otherwise. Again, that is considering that his aim was to entertain a vast audience, and not just an audience of one.

Pippen got an opportunity to address his criticisms. Frankly, he didn't do a good job because (a) he's just not a good communicator; and (b) he really had little to work with. How much better would he have been able to justify his refusal not to go into the game if he had an iPad to react to or a team of "professionals" guiding him (as Doug alluded to)? I think not much better. And, anyway, if it's that important to him, he's free to explain himself on the infinite media platforms that exist these days. He's had time to review everything and hire whatever public relations people he wants.
The Bulls have one the three worst owners and one of the five worst front offices in the league. So strap on your seat belts because this "rebuild" is going to be one very long ride.
troza
Sophomore
Posts: 211
And1: 49
Joined: Aug 19, 2011
   

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1451 » by troza » Tue May 26, 2020 3:45 pm

MrSparkle wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
troza wrote:Although that could be done, I will have one question:

- Do we want the dirt on Jordan? Or did we want a documentary on the last dance of the Chicago Bulls?


I don't want dirt on Jordan, and it was not my point to say this should be included. It was an example of the bias of the doc. You have Jordan ripping on this team for drugs/women when he was also all about that life shortly afterwards if not then. I didn't need the doc to go into that, but I can roll my eyes about Jordan acting like he's this super squeaky clean guy in the doc.

There are other examples of this too. The doc was put out to put Jordan in the best possible light and not to be an unbiased view.

Has there been a Bull that watched the doc and thought they were well represented? It seems like more or less everyone in the dynasty is pissed about this, but none of them have a relationship with Jordan anymore anyway (which is its own interesting thing that Jordan won 6 titles and no one from those teams is in his friend circle).


Well said.

And it didn’t bother me while watching it, because it was a very fun series, but in the aftermath, I did want more 1998 behind-the-scenes clips (aren’t there “500 hours previously unreleased footage” of the entire team?), and a little more about Ron, Toni, and Luc.

Kerr got more screen-time and backstory than those three. I know he’s the most relevant today, and he hit a big shot in 97 (mind you, not during the “last dance”), but he was a spot-up shooter off the bench - 7th man, and certainly had less voice on that team that atleast 6 players and the coaching staff.

In hindsight, Jordan was the producer. I’m left wanting more, but unfortunately it seems like MJ will control what comes out from that vault of video reel.

We heard about the intensity of the practices, but we really didn’t get a lot of it. I wanted to see atleast 10 full minutes of scrimmages and in-practice competition throughout the 10 hours. We basically got 20-30 second cuts of them sprinting or huddling.

Oh well. Again - I enjoyed it. Director did a good job making a Jordan Last Dance film that appeases mostly everybody (hardcore Bulls fans, new fans, casuals). But from a documentary/journalistic POV, it’s flawed.


Agreed.

I would love to see full training games to see the spectacular things that happened there. I think that's missing.

And from what I read, it doesn't show how that season went to be last and how did the players dealed with that all year (and after). That would be the two things I wanted to see more.

Ok, we wanted to know exactly what happened for the team to break up (if there is anything we still don't know) but I guess that's after the cameras were there. But there could have been lots of interesting things to see in the celebrations, on the aftermath of defeats (mainly game 5 of the finals) or before the matches. I wanted to see them in the locker room and to find what made that season special. We got non of that... :/
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 46,615
And1: 6,819
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1452 » by dougthonus » Tue May 26, 2020 6:38 pm

GetBuLLish wrote:I don't know what you're actually referring to. Was MJ doing drugs during the season? That would be news to me.


It is only heresay, and I don't expect you to change or share any opinions on the topic based on my statement, but it is my belief that Jordan was pretty heavily into parties, women, prostitutes, and drugs (pot was mentioned not cocaine). My belief is based on stories I have heard from people with second hand experience though, so I've heard it 3rd hand, and you're hearing it 4th hand.

Certainly being a serial cheater on his wife has been widely known in the past and isn't news.
Big Pippen
Sophomore
Posts: 178
And1: 110
Joined: May 11, 2016
 

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1453 » by Big Pippen » Wed May 27, 2020 1:35 am

dougthonus wrote:
GetBuLLish wrote:I don't know what you're actually referring to. Was MJ doing drugs during the season? That would be news to me.


It is only heresay, and I don't expect you to change or share any opinions on the topic based on my statement, but it is my belief that Jordan was pretty heavily into parties, women, prostitutes, and drugs (pot was mentioned not cocaine). My belief is based on stories I have heard from people with second hand experience though, so I've heard it 3rd hand, and you're hearing it 4th hand.

Certainly being a serial cheater on his wife has been widely known in the past and isn't news.


This is a trap.. when a poster eludes to verifiable dirt that has come out about MJ over the years, they get blasted for gossip, TMZ crap, dirt throwing, etc. But when they are not specific, like Doug, people claim they are making stuff up.

MJ was no saint, MJ’s wife got a record setting divorce settlement for a reason, I don’t really care about any of that stuff. Im here for the basketball chatter. But Doug’s point is rock solid... MJ presented himself as a “basketball only” guy in this doc and its not historically true.
GetBuLLish
General Manager
Posts: 8,698
And1: 2,291
Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1454 » by GetBuLLish » Wed May 27, 2020 1:50 am

dougthonus wrote:
GetBuLLish wrote:I don't know what you're actually referring to. Was MJ doing drugs during the season? That would be news to me.


It is only heresay, and I don't expect you to change or share any opinions on the topic based on my statement, but it is my belief that Jordan was pretty heavily into parties, women, prostitutes, and drugs (pot was mentioned not cocaine). My belief is based on stories I have heard from people with second hand experience though, so I've heard it 3rd hand, and you're hearing it 4th hand.

Certainly being a serial cheater on his wife has been widely known in the past and isn't news.


I've heard of the cheating, which is widely known (and wouldn't have been relevant to the doc). I never heard about the drugs and prostitutes though. I have a hard team believing it was anything close to what the partying like was in the 80s.

You never know though.
The Bulls have one the three worst owners and one of the five worst front offices in the league. So strap on your seat belts because this "rebuild" is going to be one very long ride.
League Circles
RealGM
Posts: 30,528
And1: 7,791
Joined: Dec 04, 2001
       

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1455 » by League Circles » Wed May 27, 2020 3:06 am

I haven't watched a minute of this. Short term it's cause I'm not subscribing to a service that shows it at the moment, but long term, I'm afraid it will taint my memories of the glory days. Might it?
https://august-shop.com/ streetwear & sneakers
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 46,615
And1: 6,819
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1456 » by dougthonus » Wed May 27, 2020 11:31 am

GetBuLLish wrote:I've heard of the cheating, which is widely known (and wouldn't have been relevant to the doc). I never heard about the drugs and prostitutes though. I have a hard team believing it was anything close to what the partying like was in the 80s.

You never know though.


Not having specifics of either situation, I have no idea, and I wouldn't hazard a guess one way or another, nor do I really care one way or another. I have no moral qualms about MJ living his life. Even the hypocrisy of him bashing the previous players for doing things he does isn't so annoying to me, because I think we're all guilty of that at times.

I only point it out because it's the perfect example of how this is a propaganda piece too. There was no reason to include any discussion of that at all except to go out of the way to try to white wash his image. I think it's also why Grant went off about MJ talking about it, because he knew what BS it was.
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 46,615
And1: 6,819
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1457 » by dougthonus » Wed May 27, 2020 11:33 am

League Circles wrote:I haven't watched a minute of this. Short term it's cause I'm not subscribing to a service that shows it at the moment, but long term, I'm afraid it will taint my memories of the glory days. Might it?


I don't think it would taint anything. There isn't much negative in this really. It's mostly a 10 hour long piece celebrating the team. They obviously discuss things falling apart, but you're way more likely to have great nostalgia than tainted memories.

The only thing I would say is that it does bring up how totally insane the situation was. Like you would literally never do that in todays NBA, but it also makes more sense back then because times and capabilities were different. There was a period where golfs in management ability could lead to massive differences in performance, and I think that's much less true today. For many reasons, management's ability to affect change has drastically lowered over the last 30 years.
GetBuLLish
General Manager
Posts: 8,698
And1: 2,291
Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1458 » by GetBuLLish » Thu May 28, 2020 1:12 am

For what it's worth, here's the director on Jordan's influence on the documentary. According to him, MJ's influence was not significant.

The Bulls have one the three worst owners and one of the five worst front offices in the league. So strap on your seat belts because this "rebuild" is going to be one very long ride.
User avatar
Michael Jackson
RealGM
Posts: 15,002
And1: 1,752
Joined: Jun 15, 2001

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1459 » by Michael Jackson » Fri May 29, 2020 4:44 am

GetBuLLish wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
GetBuLLish wrote:I don't know what you're actually referring to. Was MJ doing drugs during the season? That would be news to me.


It is only heresay, and I don't expect you to change or share any opinions on the topic based on my statement, but it is my belief that Jordan was pretty heavily into parties, women, prostitutes, and drugs (pot was mentioned not cocaine). My belief is based on stories I have heard from people with second hand experience though, so I've heard it 3rd hand, and you're hearing it 4th hand.

Certainly being a serial cheater on his wife has been widely known in the past and isn't news.


I've heard of the cheating, which is widely known (and wouldn't have been relevant to the doc). I never heard about the drugs and prostitutes though. I have a hard team believing it was anything close to what the partying like was in the 80s.

You never know though.



I don’t think Jordan was adverse to drugs but I surely don’t think he was a heavy drug user worth mentioning either. I mean if Jordan took a bump at a party it is nothing like what was going on with the NBA when he came in. My “adopted” father worked security for him and being good at his job as he was he would never share details but you could get pretty broad painted pictures from him. One thing he swore for sure was Jordan’s father case was absolutely not gambling related, and he had good intel on that, being a high profile agent prior to his employment in private security. Now the cigar cutter... well. We all know Jordan is no saint. Clearly he wasn’t but he had a public image to keep up. I can give you some real life examples though of him being a genuinely nice man to people I know too. Did he drink? Yes, Gamble? Yes. Infidelity? Yes. We know all this though. I mean it is also kinda unimportant though because we care about his godlike qualities in the court, not his human attributes off the court.
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 46,615
And1: 6,819
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:

Re: OT- The Last Dance documentary 

Post#1460 » by dougthonus » Fri May 29, 2020 11:42 am

Michael Jackson wrote:I don’t think Jordan was adverse to drugs but I surely don’t think he was a heavy drug user worth mentioning either. I mean if Jordan took a bump at a party it is nothing like what was going on with the NBA when he came in. My “adopted” father worked security for him and being good at his job as he was he would never share details but you could get pretty broad painted pictures from him. One thing he swore for sure was Jordan’s father case was absolutely not gambling related, and he had good intel on that, being a high profile agent prior to his employment in private security. Now the cigar cutter... well. We all know Jordan is no saint. Clearly he wasn’t but he had a public image to keep up. I can give you some real life examples though of him being a genuinely nice man to people I know too. Did he drink? Yes, Gamble? Yes. Infidelity? Yes. We know all this though. I mean it is also kinda unimportant though because we care about his godlike qualities in the court, not his human attributes off the court.


As I noted, I don't judge Jordan (or any of these guys) for the women/drugs/partying/whatever.

If I were young, good looking, famous, had virtually unlimited money and tons of free time, then I have no idea what I'd do to try and have a good time, but I expect that any of us would constantly be chasing bigger and bigger highs because the bar of 'average' is just so high up there already.

Return to Chicago Bulls