OT- The Last Dance documentary

[JohnnyKILLroy]

Same, following his career from start to finish would've been special. I wonder if we'll ever see a great player's career playout on only one team like that, with all the player movement happening these days. D. Rose was gonna be that dude for us but injuries ruined it.

Well he played on two teams. Since Jordan, you've seen Kobe, Dirk, and Duncan actually only play on one team. It does seem less and less likely that you'll see more one team guys, it's somewhat of a shock that the three I mentioned managed it. Right now, of star players, probably the GS guys are the ones with the best chance of that happening.

Haslem the Great.

[dice]

Same, following his career from start to finish would've been special. I wonder if we'll ever see a great player's career playout on only one team like that, with all the player movement happening these days. D. Rose was gonna be that dude for us but injuries ruined it.

Well he played on two teams. Since Jordan, you've seen Kobe, Dirk, and Duncan actually only play on one team. It does seem less and less likely that you'll see more one team guys, it's somewhat of a shock that the three I mentioned managed it. Right now, of star players, probably the GS guys are the ones with the best chance of that happening.

Haslem the Great.

up until 2005 (reggie miller) about one guy a year would retire after having spent his entire career (10+ years) w/ one team...then it didn't happen again until 2012, when it happened with another pacer (jeff foster)...then it didn't happen for four more years...

2016 duncan/kobe
2018 ginobili/collison
2019 dirk
2020 haslem (?)

[JohnnyKILLroy]

Well he played on two teams. Since Jordan, you've seen Kobe, Dirk, and Duncan actually only play on one team. It does seem less and less likely that you'll see more one team guys, it's somewhat of a shock that the three I mentioned managed it. Right now, of star players, probably the GS guys are the ones with the best chance of that happening.

Haslem the Great.

up until 2005 (reggie miller) about one guy a year would retire after having spent his entire career (10+ years) w/ one team...then it didn't happen again until 2012, when it happened with another pacer (jeff foster)...then it didn't happen for four more years...

2016 duncan/kobe
2018 ginobili/collison
2019 dirk
2020 haslem (?)

Curry is next in line if he stays in GS.

[Southpaw]

Just 2 more weeks hell yeah!

[dougthonus]

So when is this going to hit Netflix? Any confirmed date?

April 19, it's in the thread title

I heard some regions will get it via Netflix first i.e. the UK.

My bad, i didn't read netflix in the post and mocked you for not reading. I feel deep shame.

[robert76]

April 19, it's in the thread title

I heard some regions will get it via Netflix first i.e. the UK.

My bad, i didn't read netflix in the post and mocked you for not reading. I feel deep shame.

I don't know in other regions, but here (Romania) the first episode will be on Netflix on April 20.

[SfBull]

I heard some regions will get it via Netflix first i.e. the UK.

My bad, i didn't read netflix in the post and mocked you for not reading. I feel deep shame.

I don't know in other regions, but here (Romania) the first episode will be on Netflix on April 20.

April 20 outside United States.

[dumbell78]

April 19, it's in the thread title

I heard some regions will get it via Netflix first i.e. the UK.

My bad, i didn't read netflix in the post and mocked you for not reading. I feel deep shame.

Nah all good, don't even worry about it

[wickywack]

May not have complete control, but he clearly has a lot of input. I doubt anything highly critical of Jordan makes this documentary or that it is an unbiased view.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/media/2020/03/31/michael-jordan-documentary-the-last-dance-espn-air-april-19/5093149002/

Krause is dead and surely will be the main villian. It won't be hard to find "others" to heap blame on so I'm not sure how critical this would have been on MJ even if he didn't have a say in the production. My guess is MJ will allow some criticism that shows him being firm in following his beliefs or that shows him to be a ruthless competitor but nothing that shows him to be petty or overly selfish. That would be keeping him in character. But anything really bad on MJ will get whitewashed.

i wonder whether the product would have ended up being superior WITHOUT jordan's participation

but really, what kind of dirt could they have dug up? that he was a serial cheater on his wife or something? that's not interesting. that he gambled a lot? we already knew that (though the stories would have been entertaining). maybe we would have gotten more interesting stuff on how he dealt with people. but even then we already have a pretty good idea based on what teammates have said, for example

There have been plenty of other (shorter) retrospectives on the 90s Bulls without Jordan's involvement. Pretty much all of them cast him as the hero. And, to the extent they talk about the demise of team, Krause is nearly always the main villain.

I doubt Jordan's participation fundamentally changes anything on those points.

[dougthonus]

There have been plenty of other (shorter) retrospectives on the 90s Bulls without Jordan's involvement. Pretty much all of them cast him as the hero. And, to the extent they talk about the demise of team, Krause is nearly always the main villain.

I doubt Jordan's participation fundamentally changes anything on those points.

There are two really important reasons why:

1: Jordan is the hero. He was the reason the Bulls won 6 titles.

2: Krause is the villain. His fundamental job is to keep talent together, and he fundamentally failed at his job in 1998 when he wanted to force the break up of this team and was unable to build up anything meaningful before being forced out.

Granted, you could argue they wouldn't have won in 99 anyway, but then again, we got nothing out of not trying for an additional year because the team never made any use of the assets it acquired for breaking up the team.

[2018C3]

I'm looking forward to this. Growing up and living through the Bulls championship era, I think there is a perspective lost today on just how great MJ really was. His competiveness is unequalled to this day.

I never saw another athlete have a greater global inpact on society. At the time you could travel the world, and when meeting new people once they found out you were from the Chicago area, the first thing they would say back is, "Michael Jordan", and just nod there head.

[Dan Z]

I wasn't sure where to share this, but look at Scottie's defense. He's all over the court!

[youtube]

Read on Twitter

[/youtube]

[wickywack]

There have been plenty of other (shorter) retrospectives on the 90s Bulls without Jordan's involvement. Pretty much all of them cast him as the hero. And, to the extent they talk about the demise of team, Krause is nearly always the main villain.

I doubt Jordan's participation fundamentally changes anything on those points.

There are two really important reasons why:

1: Jordan is the hero. He was the reason the Bulls won 6 titles.

2: Krause is the villain. His fundamental job is to keep talent together, and he fundamentally failed at his job in 1998 when he wanted to force the break up of this team and was unable to build up anything meaningful before being forced out.

Granted, you could argue they wouldn't have won in 99 anyway, but then again, we got nothing out of not trying for an additional year because the team never made any use of the assets it acquired for breaking up the team.

It's hard to argue with that. If Krause had his way, he would have disbanded the team in 97, and we'd be debating whether they could have won it in 98 too. While 99 wasn't a given, it would have been the best shot this franchise ever had at a 7th championship.

[TheGOATRises007]

Wasn't the problem in 99 that MJ cut his finger really badly?

And thus his return would have been really late into the season.

[dougthonus]

Wasn't the problem in 99 that MJ cut his finger really badly?

And thus his return would have been really late into the season.

It's really hard to find details about the cut finger that are accurate. There was a story appearing on Jan 15th discussing the cut finger requiring surgery. There was a story I found after the surgery saying it was successful and that there would be a 6 week recovery.

If both those things were accurate, and the injury happened sometime prior to Jan 15, then you know he would have been fine to be there for most of the season and playoffs. That said, information is sketchy of course, and you don't know how he would have recovered from it.

[troza]

There have been plenty of other (shorter) retrospectives on the 90s Bulls without Jordan's involvement. Pretty much all of them cast him as the hero. And, to the extent they talk about the demise of team, Krause is nearly always the main villain.

I doubt Jordan's participation fundamentally changes anything on those points.

There are two really important reasons why:

1: Jordan is the hero. He was the reason the Bulls won 6 titles.

2: Krause is the villain. His fundamental job is to keep talent together, and he fundamentally failed at his job in 1998 when he wanted to force the break up of this team and was unable to build up anything meaningful before being forced out.

Granted, you could argue they wouldn't have won in 99 anyway, but then again, we got nothing out of not trying for an additional year because the team never made any use of the assets it acquired for breaking up the team.

It's hard to argue with that. If Krause had his way, he would have disbanded the team in 97, and we'd be debating whether they could have won it in 98 too. While 99 wasn't a given, it would have been the best shot this franchise ever had at a 7th championship.

Let's not forget what he did in the wizards before his big injury... even after missing some of the pre-season with broken ribs 3 years later... And the fact that the Lakers wouldn't have Ron Harper and Phil Jackson.


About Krause... Breaking the team at 98 (too soon in my opinion as the Bulls should have had MJ until he retired, although I think that the last shot of MJ is the perfect retiring moment) was bad, mainly when the plan in 97 was to get younger and still compete (and he was right about McGrady), I think the worst is that we had some young players but they were all bad. Still, it would have been fun seeing MJ, Pippen, Kukoc, Rodman (would he be able to play 2 more seasons?) going all out until 2003.

[wickywack]

Let's not forget what he did in the wizards before his big injury... even after missing some of the pre-season with broken ribs 3 years later... And the fact that the Lakers wouldn't have Ron Harper and Phil Jackson.


About Krause... Breaking the team at 98 (too soon in my opinion as the Bulls should have had MJ until he retired, although I think that the last shot of MJ is the perfect retiring moment) was bad, mainly when the plan in 97 was to get younger and still compete (and he was right about McGrady), I think the worst is that we had some young players but they were all bad. Still, it would have been fun seeing MJ, Pippen, Kukoc, Rodman (would he be able to play 2 more seasons?) going all out until 2003.

I't's not clear Krause would have gotten McGrady anyway. TMac was (AFAIK) just one of the players on Krause's radar. The rumors at the time had him also interested in Keith Van Horn and Ron Mercer:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1997-06-24-9706240005-story.html

Pippen for Van Horn and Mercer would have been pretty sad.

Besides, TMac didn't really blow up until his second contract - one Krause had the opportunity to sign him to and failed. Trading for a rookie TMac only to have him walk in 2000 would have also been pretty sad.

Of course, Krause did get ... Ron Mercer.

[troza]

Let's not forget what he did in the wizards before his big injury... even after missing some of the pre-season with broken ribs 3 years later... And the fact that the Lakers wouldn't have Ron Harper and Phil Jackson.


About Krause... Breaking the team at 98 (too soon in my opinion as the Bulls should have had MJ until he retired, although I think that the last shot of MJ is the perfect retiring moment) was bad, mainly when the plan in 97 was to get younger and still compete (and he was right about McGrady), I think the worst is that we had some young players but they were all bad. Still, it would have been fun seeing MJ, Pippen, Kukoc, Rodman (would he be able to play 2 more seasons?) going all out until 2003.

I't's not clear Krause would have gotten McGrady anyway. TMac was (AFAIK) just one of the players on Krause's radar. The rumors at the time had him also interested in Keith Van Horn and Ron Mercer:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1997-06-24-9706240005-story.html

Pippen for Van Horn and Mercer would have been pretty sad.

Besides, TMac didn't really blow up until his second contract - one Krause had the opportunity to sign him to and failed. Trading for a rookie TMac only to have him walk in 2000 would have also been pretty sad.

Of course, Krause did get ... Ron Mercer.

Thanks. I didn't know all those details.

Indeed, the only thing that would make some sense was Pippen for McGrady but, as you said, it would take a while... and he had to survive Jordan on practice... and Jordan would have to accept being a tutor for the young guys again (if there is a flaw to point to Jordan, might be this one... I don't belive he would accept to be a second star for McGrady even in 2002-2003 if he came to the Bulls and developed the way he did.

Still... what I meant was the following: what was done in 98 made less sense than that crazy plan in 97. Still... the roster was too old to keep up so we never know. I still think that the smart decision would be to keep them but we lacked good young players. I think that the biggest mistake was there... we had an amazing team but we never got anyone young good enough to add to that squad. We all know that Jordan, Pippen, Kukoc, Kerr, Harper and Phil still did good things after that.

But Rodman, Longley, Randy Brown, Simpkins, Wennington, Buchler and others... I don't remember them doing anything more after that season.

(What if the team was kept intact and somehow there was a chance to get Penny Hardway to replace Ron Harper?... The what ifs that appear when the core of the team is kept the same... - there was never the evidence for this, just imaging things)

[Dieselbound&Down]

It is interesting to think about how McGrady's career would have gone if he started out in Chicago. He had mental issues (depression) trying to adjust to being on his own in the NBA his first couple of years I believe. On the Bulls, he may have been allowed less pressure to find himself and he would have been walking into a veteran team that was comfortable with each other. Guys like Harper and Steve Kerr could have helped him out a great deal. Alternatively, the team was expected to win and he would have been put through the wringer by Jordan each day in practice, especially if MJ knew McGrady was struggling he would have pushed him to the limit.

All speculation and what ifs but, without actual games, I guess that is all we have?

[kyrv]

Young MJ has a LOT of charisma. I kinda wish I was alive when he was coming up in the league. Would've been a treat to watch.

Not to be too overly dramatic in retrospect, but it was a magical time. People learning the NBA/Bulls with MJ probably got an unrealistic set of expectations, for others like me you just knew it was freaking special. Amazing time, Bears were also awesome during much of that time. Incredible time to be a Bulls/Bears fan.

Sports radio was fairly new then, but get this, some of the idiot hosts would complain that the MJ Bulls were 'boring'. I always thought, well stick around, when he leaves you will get some non-boring crappy basketball.

This doc I think covers the last title team, they were very good but a little bit running on fumes compared to the past. Even if MJ and Phil had not retired, they were pert near at the end of the run.

And, just for me, I felt strongly during the entire run, I knew it would end, I just really didn't want it to end in someone else toppling them, but rather (as did happen), someone else winning because MJ left.

Actually very odd to see middle aged slightly pot bellied MJ. MJ and Scottie, so great, so much fun.


tldr; Don't know if this is any good, but it was a magical time and I'll be checking it out. A treat indeed, as you so aptly worded it!