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What no one ever coherently explained to me about Lavine

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Re: What no one ever coherently explained to me about Lavine 

Post#101 » by dice » Sat May 9, 2020 1:34 am

drosestruts wrote:I don't think the Bulls have a Zach LaVine problem.

Honest question - who's the best player Zach has every played with? If you can keep it to the season he played with that player, so think of it as if it's in a vacuum (aka don't answer Kevin Garnett, KG wasn't KG when he played with Zach). Like really look at the top 5 players he's played with, that will answer your question on why Zach hasn't been on a winning team or been in the playoffs.

2016 Ricky Rubio
2016 Karl Anthony Towns
2018 Otto Porter Jr for 15 games
2014 Kevin Martin

If you look at his best teammates by win share it's:

2016-17 KAT
2015-16 KAT
2016-17 Ricky Rubio
2016-17 Gorgui Dieng
2015-16 Gorgui Dieng
2015-16 Ricky Rubio

His highest rated Bulls teammate by win share is Ryan Arcidiancano. That's your problem.

another problem is that arci had more win shares than lavine
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Re: What no one ever coherently explained to me about Lavine 

Post#102 » by PaKii94 » Sat May 9, 2020 1:53 am

dice wrote:
drosestruts wrote:I don't think the Bulls have a Zach LaVine problem.

Honest question - who's the best player Zach has every played with? If you can keep it to the season he played with that player, so think of it as if it's in a vacuum (aka don't answer Kevin Garnett, KG wasn't KG when he played with Zach). Like really look at the top 5 players he's played with, that will answer your question on why Zach hasn't been on a winning team or been in the playoffs.

2016 Ricky Rubio
2016 Karl Anthony Towns
2018 Otto Porter Jr for 15 games
2014 Kevin Martin

If you look at his best teammates by win share it's:

2016-17 KAT
2015-16 KAT
2016-17 Ricky Rubio
2016-17 Gorgui Dieng
2015-16 Gorgui Dieng
2015-16 Ricky Rubio

His highest rated Bulls teammate by win share is Ryan Arcidiancano. That's your problem.

another problem is that arci had more win shares than lavine


:lol: :lol:

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Re: What no one ever coherently explained to me about Lavine 

Post#103 » by GusFring » Sun May 31, 2020 8:58 pm

Bulls basketball feels like 10 years ago minimal but if Lavine was a 6th man spark plug or a 3rd option on a team like the warriors back in 2015 the guy would be beloved as talented starters would minimize his net negative defense. I'm softer on him than I used to be, he tries really hard and he's a freak athlete and didn't let the ACL diminish him at all mentally/physically. He can't teach himself how to have better IQ and instincts, at least not easily at his age. He's not a franchise talent but we knew he wouldn't be
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I now thing that the Bulls scouting department doesn't have access to electricity or any devices that actually use it.
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Re: What no one ever coherently explained to me about Lavine 

Post#104 » by bullsnewdynasty » Sun May 31, 2020 10:31 pm

Rose was always a net negative defensively yet people never fixated on it the same way they do for LaVine. I don't know if that was because Rose was a homegrown talent or not but I never heard anybody say Rose should've been a 6th man. Maybe because Rose had a great coach and defensive team around him?
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Re: What no one ever coherently explained to me about Lavine 

Post#105 » by dice » Sun May 31, 2020 11:13 pm

bullsnewdynasty wrote:Rose was always a net negative defensively yet people never fixated on it the same way they do for LaVine. I don't know if that was because Rose was a homegrown talent or not but I never heard anybody say Rose should've been a 6th man. Maybe because Rose had a great coach and defensive team around him?

i can't find pure RAPM stats, but here are the DBPM stats for the two players (0 being league average and somewhat above average for a guard)"

derrick

2009 (1.5)
2010 (0.9)
2011 0.5
2012 0.3
major injury plunges all stats until offensive resurgence in 2019 at age 30

zach

2015 (2.5)
2016 (1.6)
2017 (1.4)
2019 (1.6)
2020 (0.8)

significant advantage derrick

for comparison's sake, here is hinrich's first run in chicago:

2004 (0.4)
2005 1.6
2006 0.6
2007 1.1
2008 0.2
2009 0.9
2010 1.0

and MJ prior to first retirement:

1985 1.5
1987 2.4
1988 4.2 (led league, DPOY)
1989 3.4 (led league, 5th in DPOY voting behind eaton 3.1, olajuwon 2.9 rodman 1.1 manute 3.2)
1990 2.1
1991 3.2
1992 2.5
1993 2.6
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Re: What no one ever coherently explained to me about Lavine 

Post#106 » by GusFring » Mon Jun 1, 2020 12:19 am

bullsnewdynasty wrote:Rose was always a net negative defensively yet people never fixated on it the same way they do for LaVine. I don't know if that was because Rose was a homegrown talent or not but I never heard anybody say Rose should've been a 6th man. Maybe because Rose had a great coach and defensive team around him?


Well derick won a lot with the bulls as the best player, that helps.
coldfish wrote:I used to think that the Bulls scouting department didn't have access to advanced stats.

I now thing that the Bulls scouting department doesn't have access to electricity or any devices that actually use it.
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Re: What no one ever coherently explained to me about Lavine 

Post#107 » by Dominater » Mon Jun 1, 2020 1:13 am

Wrote this earlier but dropped it in the wrong thread. My mistake.


Interesting bump mate! Nice to have a few things to talk about to today that isn't riots or Covid related.

I'm definitely in the pro-Zach camp. He's far from perfect, but he's a good player on a fairly team friendly contract (guys like Wiggins and Jamal Murray are getting like 50% more a year than Zach is) and through the season, he has been the one and only reason to watch any Bulls basketball. Without him this may have been the most boring season in bulls history. Coby turned out to be fun too, but that wasn't until after the ASB.
Didn't like the Coby White pick. Preferred Rui. Now go out and make me look stupid Coby!
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Re: What no one ever coherently explained to me about Lavine 

Post#108 » by bullsnewdynasty » Mon Jun 1, 2020 2:34 am

dice wrote:
bullsnewdynasty wrote:Rose was always a net negative defensively yet people never fixated on it the same way they do for LaVine. I don't know if that was because Rose was a homegrown talent or not but I never heard anybody say Rose should've been a 6th man. Maybe because Rose had a great coach and defensive team around him?

i can't find pure RAPM stats, but here are the DBPM stats for the two players (0 being league average and somewhat above average for a guard)"

derrick

2009 (1.5)
2010 (0.9)
2011 0.5
2012 0.3
major injury plunges all stats until offensive resurgence in 2019 at age 30

zach

2015 (2.5)
2016 (1.6)
2017 (1.4)
2019 (1.6)
2020 (0.8)

significant advantage derrick

for comparison's sake, here is hinrich's first run in chicago:

2004 (0.4)
2005 1.6
2006 0.6
2007 1.1
2008 0.2
2009 0.9
2010 1.0

and MJ prior to first retirement:

1985 1.5
1987 2.4
1988 4.2 (led league, DPOY)
1989 3.4 (led league, 5th in DPOY voting behind eaton 3.1, olajuwon 2.9 rodman 1.1 manute 3.2)
1990 2.1
1991 3.2
1992 2.5
1993 2.6


Maybe I'm mistaken but I've always understood DBPM to be a pretty useless stat.
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Re: What no one ever coherently explained to me about Lavine 

Post#109 » by Showtime23 » Mon Jun 1, 2020 3:00 am

GusFring wrote:Bulls basketball feels like 10 years ago minimal but if Lavine was a 6th man spark plug or a 3rd option on a team like the warriors back in 2015 the guy would be beloved as talented starters would minimize his net negative defense. I'm softer on him than I used to be, he tries really hard and he's a freak athlete and didn't let the ACL diminish him at all mentally/physically. He can't teach himself how to have better IQ and instincts, at least not easily at his age. He's not a franchise talent but we knew he wouldn't be


He is one one major injury from post ACL rose who was once brink of retirement. Right now, I dont see any skills he really developed that doesnt rely on athleticism. Guess he can chuck 20 3s if you call that skill. But hey thats 18 pts if you hit 6.
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Re: What no one ever coherently explained to me about Lavine 

Post#110 » by Showtime23 » Mon Jun 1, 2020 3:02 am

dice wrote:
bullsnewdynasty wrote:Rose was always a net negative defensively yet people never fixated on it the same way they do for LaVine. I don't know if that was because Rose was a homegrown talent or not but I never heard anybody say Rose should've been a 6th man. Maybe because Rose had a great coach and defensive team around him?

i can't find pure RAPM stats, but here are the DBPM stats for the two players (0 being league average and somewhat above average for a guard)"

derrick

2009 (1.5)
2010 (0.9)
2011 0.5
2012 0.3
major injury plunges all stats until offensive resurgence in 2019 at age 30

zach

2015 (2.5)
2016 (1.6)
2017 (1.4)
2019 (1.6)
2020 (0.8)

significant advantage derrick

for comparison's sake, here is hinrich's first run in chicago:

2004 (0.4)
2005 1.6
2006 0.6
2007 1.1
2008 0.2
2009 0.9
2010 1.0

and MJ prior to first retirement:

1985 1.5
1987 2.4
1988 4.2 (led league, DPOY)
1989 3.4 (led league, 5th in DPOY voting behind eaton 3.1, olajuwon 2.9 rodman 1.1 manute 3.2)
1990 2.1
1991 3.2
1992 2.5
1993 2.6


Umm. Rose was called mini Lebron. Care to check his defensive win shares back in MVP?
Defense was why he got MVP.
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Re: What no one ever coherently explained to me about Lavine 

Post#111 » by dice » Mon Jun 1, 2020 3:24 am

bullsnewdynasty wrote:
dice wrote:
bullsnewdynasty wrote:Rose was always a net negative defensively yet people never fixated on it the same way they do for LaVine. I don't know if that was because Rose was a homegrown talent or not but I never heard anybody say Rose should've been a 6th man. Maybe because Rose had a great coach and defensive team around him?

i can't find pure RAPM stats, but here are the DBPM stats for the two players (0 being league average and somewhat above average for a guard)"

derrick

2009 (1.5)
2010 (0.9)
2011 0.5
2012 0.3
major injury plunges all stats until offensive resurgence in 2019 at age 30

zach

2015 (2.5)
2016 (1.6)
2017 (1.4)
2019 (1.6)
2020 (0.8)

significant advantage derrick

for comparison's sake, here is hinrich's first run in chicago:

2004 (0.4)
2005 1.6
2006 0.6
2007 1.1
2008 0.2
2009 0.9
2010 1.0

and MJ prior to first retirement:

1985 1.5
1987 2.4
1988 4.2 (led league, DPOY)
1989 3.4 (led league, 5th in DPOY voting behind eaton 3.1, olajuwon 2.9 rodman 1.1 manute 3.2)
1990 2.1
1991 3.2
1992 2.5
1993 2.6


Maybe I'm mistaken but I've always understood DBPM to be a pretty useless stat.

it's a bad one, but it's better than nothing and the best readily available one to compare across eras, certainly. i know there's pure RAPM data from '97 on somewhere, but i couldn't find it
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Re: What no one ever coherently explained to me about Lavine 

Post#112 » by dice » Mon Jun 1, 2020 3:26 am

Showtime23 wrote:
dice wrote:
bullsnewdynasty wrote:Rose was always a net negative defensively yet people never fixated on it the same way they do for LaVine. I don't know if that was because Rose was a homegrown talent or not but I never heard anybody say Rose should've been a 6th man. Maybe because Rose had a great coach and defensive team around him?

i can't find pure RAPM stats, but here are the DBPM stats for the two players (0 being league average and somewhat above average for a guard)"

derrick

2009 (1.5)
2010 (0.9)
2011 0.5
2012 0.3
major injury plunges all stats until offensive resurgence in 2019 at age 30

zach

2015 (2.5)
2016 (1.6)
2017 (1.4)
2019 (1.6)
2020 (0.8)

significant advantage derrick

for comparison's sake, here is hinrich's first run in chicago:

2004 (0.4)
2005 1.6
2006 0.6
2007 1.1
2008 0.2
2009 0.9
2010 1.0

and MJ prior to first retirement:

1985 1.5
1987 2.4
1988 4.2 (led league, DPOY)
1989 3.4 (led league, 5th in DPOY voting behind eaton 3.1, olajuwon 2.9 rodman 1.1 manute 3.2)
1990 2.1
1991 3.2
1992 2.5
1993 2.6


Umm. Rose was called mini Lebron. Care to check his defensive win shares back in MVP?
Defense was why he got MVP.

it absolutely was not. derrick was at no point considered a particularly good defender

derrick got MVP for the same reason most players do: he was clearly the best player on the best regular season team
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Re: What no one ever coherently explained to me about Lavine 

Post#113 » by johnnyvann840 » Tue Jun 9, 2020 4:08 pm

bullsnewdynasty wrote:Rose was always a net negative defensively yet people never fixated on it the same way they do for LaVine. I don't know if that was because Rose was a homegrown talent or not but I never heard anybody say Rose should've been a 6th man. Maybe because Rose had a great coach and defensive team around him?


What are you talking about? Derrick was not "always a net negative defensively". He was actually an above average PG in the league defensively in his prime. Whereas, Zach is not only one of the worst defensive guards in the league but one of the worst defensive players overall in the league. Also, we are talking about a league MVP who was an overall net positive player who played on a team with very little offensive talent around him. The fact is that the Bulls were always better when Derrick was on the floor. Lavine for his entire career has been an overall net negative player. Even on one of the worst teams in the NBA he still couldn't stay in net positive territory except for about a half a season when his replacement players were G league level talent or guys who shouldn't even be in the NBA.
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Re: What no one ever coherently explained to me about Lavine 

Post#114 » by MrFortune3 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:40 am

bullsnewdynasty wrote:Rose was always a net negative defensively yet people never fixated on it the same way they do for LaVine. I don't know if that was because Rose was a homegrown talent or not but I never heard anybody say Rose should've been a 6th man. Maybe because Rose had a great coach and defensive team around him?


Rose was a catalyst for a championship contending team and won league MVP. That's a major reason why.
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Re: What no one ever coherently explained to me about Lavine 

Post#115 » by MrSparkle » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:01 am

Thing with Zach is he’s not a even a true double-team threat (like Rose). He just shot such a high volume and teams knew he had the green flag, and they also knew he couldn’t make a pretty assist to save his life, so they started doubling him.

Rose was a guaranteed 2pts on any individual cover unless you put a huge athletic freak like Lebron on him. And even then, the real down-fall of that series wasn’t Rose getting shut down by Lebron as much as nobody else being able to provide any relief or spacing for Rose. Boozer, Deng and Korver got shut down and badly outplayed by their match-ups.

So the comparison is ludicrous. Zach’s offense is not in the same stratosphere.

I still see him more in the Will Barton, JR Smith and Jamal Crawford realm. He basically has more athleticism, a better attitude and a greener light to handle the ball (even though it generated one of the worst offenses in the league).

For a team with as many “shooters” as the Bulls have had the last 2 years, I don’t understand how it’s possible to be ranked 28th in offense if you have a legitimate all-star. Any all-star I could think of, even Iverson or Marbury, they knew how to create a simple play for others. Guys like Jamal, Lou and JR could not, so they often played 6th man or “out-of-offense” microwave roles.

Zach is not a playmaker, period. He’s not efficient either. So giving him 30%+ usage is absurd and a recipe for lottery records he’s amassed the last few years. He’s an athletic chucker. I do think part of the plan will be to trade him for a better core player, strategically sell him high.

I will say, he gets to the line a lot, and he is capable of making incredible shots and 3Ps.

So ideally, if you can't trade him for a better core player, than the goal should be to resign him below max and continue improving his ability to play off-the-ball, while building a better 3-man core to lead the way. Sounds hard to do , because it is. Zach is definitely the buy-low, chip addition type of player. Dirk Mavs were the type of culture that benefitted from acquiring the Stackhouses and Terrys. They had a top-down structure with a clear #1 option who embraced any talent. Tough seeing Zach as a veteran leader of a winning team.
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Re: What no one ever coherently explained to me about Lavine 

Post#116 » by Showtime23 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:22 am

MrSparkle wrote:Thing with Zach is he’s not a even a true double-team threat (like Rose). He just shot such a high volume and teams knew he had the green flag, and they also knew he couldn’t make a pretty assist to save his life, so they started doubling him.

Rose was a guaranteed 2pts on any individual cover unless you put a huge athletic freak like Lebron on him. And even then, the real down-fall of that series wasn’t Rose getting shut down by Lebron as much as nobody else being able to provide any relief or spacing for Rose. Boozer, Deng and Korver got shut down and badly outplayed by their match-ups.

So the comparison is ludicrous. Zach’s offense is not in the same stratosphere.

I still see him more in the Will Barton, JR Smith and Jamal Crawford realm. He basically has more athleticism, a better attitude and a greener light to handle the ball (even though it generated one of the worst offenses in the league).

For a team with as many “shooters” as the Bulls have had the last 2 years, I don’t understand how it’s possible to be ranked 28th in offense if you have a legitimate all-star. Any all-star I could think of, even Iverson or Marbury, they knew how to create a simple play for others. Guys like Jamal, Lou and JR could not, so they often played 6th man or “out-of-offense” microwave roles.

Zach is not a playmaker, period. He’s not efficient either. So giving him 30%+ usage is absurd and a recipe for lottery records he’s amassed the last few years. He’s an athletic chucker. I do think part of the plan will be to trade him for a better core player, strategically sell him high.

I will say, he gets to the line a lot, and he is capable of making incredible shots and 3Ps.

So ideally, if you can't trade him for a better core player, than the goal should be to resign him below max and continue improving his ability to play off-the-ball, while building a better 3-man core to lead the way. Sounds hard to do , because it is. Zach is definitely the buy-low, chip addition type of player. Dirk Mavs were the type of culture that benefitted from acquiring the Stackhouses and Terrys. They had a top-down structure with a clear #1 option who embraced any talent. Tough seeing Zach as a veteran leader of a winning team.


Not only he doesnt draw double teams, he doesnt play fast nor motion offense which is what AK is all about.
If Lavine truly wants to be alpha dominant as the fanboys want, theres only 1 answer and become James Harden but we all know his brain cant handle it. Should have been seeing going to the line at least 10 times when hes several times more athletic.
The only characterstic he fits is shooting but thats only if he is willing to play the Klay Thompson off the ball below 30 usg rate.
AK already figured out Lavine is not a piece you build around. He is just figuring out how to sell him at the highest price to replace him with a low usage two way player.
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Re: What no one ever coherently explained to me about Lavine 

Post#117 » by JimmyJammer » Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:01 pm

Showtime23 wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:Thing with Zach is he’s not a even a true double-team threat (like Rose). He just shot such a high volume and teams knew he had the green flag, and they also knew he couldn’t make a pretty assist to save his life, so they started doubling him.

Rose was a guaranteed 2pts on any individual cover unless you put a huge athletic freak like Lebron on him. And even then, the real down-fall of that series wasn’t Rose getting shut down by Lebron as much as nobody else being able to provide any relief or spacing for Rose. Boozer, Deng and Korver got shut down and badly outplayed by their match-ups.

So the comparison is ludicrous. Zach’s offense is not in the same stratosphere.

I still see him more in the Will Barton, JR Smith and Jamal Crawford realm. He basically has more athleticism, a better attitude and a greener light to handle the ball (even though it generated one of the worst offenses in the league).

For a team with as many “shooters” as the Bulls have had the last 2 years, I don’t understand how it’s possible to be ranked 28th in offense if you have a legitimate all-star. Any all-star I could think of, even Iverson or Marbury, they knew how to create a simple play for others. Guys like Jamal, Lou and JR could not, so they often played 6th man or “out-of-offense” microwave roles.

Zach is not a playmaker, period. He’s not efficient either. So giving him 30%+ usage is absurd and a recipe for lottery records he’s amassed the last few years. He’s an athletic chucker. I do think part of the plan will be to trade him for a better core player, strategically sell him high.

I will say, he gets to the line a lot, and he is capable of making incredible shots and 3Ps.

So ideally, if you can't trade him for a better core player, than the goal should be to resign him below max and continue improving his ability to play off-the-ball, while building a better 3-man core to lead the way. Sounds hard to do , because it is. Zach is definitely the buy-low, chip addition type of player. Dirk Mavs were the type of culture that benefitted from acquiring the Stackhouses and Terrys. They had a top-down structure with a clear #1 option who embraced any talent. Tough seeing Zach as a veteran leader of a winning team.


Not only he doesnt draw double teams, he doesnt play fast nor motion offense which is what AK is all about.
If Lavine truly wants to be alpha dominant as the fanboys want, theres only 1 answer and become James Harden but we all know his brain cant handle it. Should have been seeing going to the line at least 10 times when hes several times more athletic.
The only characterstic he fits is shooting but thats only if he is willing to play the Klay Thompson off the ball below 30 usg rate.
AK already figured out Lavine is not a piece you build around. He is just figuring out how to sell him at the highest price to replace him with a low usage two way player.


Am I missing something here? Did AK say something about Lavine that I should know about?
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Re: What no one ever coherently explained to me about Lavine 

Post#118 » by MrSparkle » Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:28 pm

JimmyJammer wrote:
Showtime23 wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:Thing with Zach is he’s not a even a true double-team threat (like Rose). He just shot such a high volume and teams knew he had the green flag, and they also knew he couldn’t make a pretty assist to save his life, so they started doubling him.

Rose was a guaranteed 2pts on any individual cover unless you put a huge athletic freak like Lebron on him. And even then, the real down-fall of that series wasn’t Rose getting shut down by Lebron as much as nobody else being able to provide any relief or spacing for Rose. Boozer, Deng and Korver got shut down and badly outplayed by their match-ups.

So the comparison is ludicrous. Zach’s offense is not in the same stratosphere.

I still see him more in the Will Barton, JR Smith and Jamal Crawford realm. He basically has more athleticism, a better attitude and a greener light to handle the ball (even though it generated one of the worst offenses in the league).

For a team with as many “shooters” as the Bulls have had the last 2 years, I don’t understand how it’s possible to be ranked 28th in offense if you have a legitimate all-star. Any all-star I could think of, even Iverson or Marbury, they knew how to create a simple play for others. Guys like Jamal, Lou and JR could not, so they often played 6th man or “out-of-offense” microwave roles.

Zach is not a playmaker, period. He’s not efficient either. So giving him 30%+ usage is absurd and a recipe for lottery records he’s amassed the last few years. He’s an athletic chucker. I do think part of the plan will be to trade him for a better core player, strategically sell him high.

I will say, he gets to the line a lot, and he is capable of making incredible shots and 3Ps.

So ideally, if you can't trade him for a better core player, than the goal should be to resign him below max and continue improving his ability to play off-the-ball, while building a better 3-man core to lead the way. Sounds hard to do , because it is. Zach is definitely the buy-low, chip addition type of player. Dirk Mavs were the type of culture that benefitted from acquiring the Stackhouses and Terrys. They had a top-down structure with a clear #1 option who embraced any talent. Tough seeing Zach as a veteran leader of a winning team.


Not only he doesnt draw double teams, he doesnt play fast nor motion offense which is what AK is all about.
If Lavine truly wants to be alpha dominant as the fanboys want, theres only 1 answer and become James Harden but we all know his brain cant handle it. Should have been seeing going to the line at least 10 times when hes several times more athletic.
The only characterstic he fits is shooting but thats only if he is willing to play the Klay Thompson off the ball below 30 usg rate.
AK already figured out Lavine is not a piece you build around. He is just figuring out how to sell him at the highest price to replace him with a low usage two way player.


Am I missing something here? Did AK say something about Lavine that I should know about?


Ha I don't think AK said anything about any individual players yet, besides for expecting a better year out of Lauri.

I think Showtime takes the Zach criticisms to the next level... :lol: I would certainly give him a new coach with a new coach and a new system. I don't see why Zach couldn't play "fast" - he's one of the most athletic players and dunkers in the league. Only thing I second is that his usage rate must come down below 30%. Klay would be a wonderful player to emulate, but I just don't see that working out for Zach. Lunar opposite instincts and mentalities. My philosophy is feed into a player's strengths, and simply maneuver them into a position where they'll be pros and not cons.

IMO the key is forming a ball-handling system around 2 players not named Zach. I do think Coby and Otto are basically a working tandem.

I know he sets an impossible standard, but MJ played such a beautiful game on-and-off the ball within the triangle offense. There's so much to learn just by watching the guy. He routinely gave the ball up to Pippen. Zach should watch a compilation of MJ footage that highlights everything he did without scoring. I do think it's worth a shot, getting Zach to build toward that type of game. It's not easy to re-invent your game in the NBA, but it is very possible for a 25 year old to mature as an individual, put the brakes on trying to wow the world with circus shots, dunks and pumping stats. If a coach believed in Zach's potential and they formed a symbiotic relationship, Zach DOES have a potential to unlock. It's not Klay. It's more along the lines of MJ (not the caliber of player, but the style of player). An athletic scorer. But he has a lot of things to work on (foot-work, off-the-ball/working with screens, assists, rebounding, general awareness). These are fundamentals that can be improved with teaching.

IMO Jim was a bad type of coach because he wanted to take all these soft offensive scorers and turn them into blitz defenders. Made them focus on nothing but defense, yet their offensive games all took a dump. I think they needed a more balanced approach. Actually a more structured offense, more rebounding, and less 3P/on-ball defensive pressure.

I'm definitely not on-board with "dumping" Zach. I'm into the idea of trading him if he can net a star return like Simmons, but I realize that's a long-shot hypothetical. The decision of resigning him to a bigger contract is difficult and should be considered. But what you do have is a high-ceiling problem with problems mainly regarding fundamentals.

We know the league is different. It's not like the 80s and early 90s where guys left college with most fundamentals in-grained. Zach literally without structure. I think a few more years with Thibs and no ACL tear would've had him on the right track. I would definitely not write off a 25 year old player who averaged almost 30 ppg.

I dunno, maybe a less similar (style) but parallel player comparison would be Jerry Stackhouse.
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Re: What no one ever coherently explained to me about Lavine 

Post#119 » by sco » Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:42 pm

I feel like folks commenting on what they saw from Zach last season is like commenting on the lack of food court items during the pandemic. Is he MVP Rose, no, Is he Jordan, no. Is he a #1 option, no. That all said, he's a starting-caliber SG who was forced into the role of #1 option, playing alongside mainly g-league talent for most of the season - getting schemed for because nobody else wanted to shoot most of the season. I also saw a guy who improved his shot selection and defense last season. Oh, and, he's being paid like a 3rd option starter.

Would I trade him for a legit #1 option, sure, but there's no reality there. I still want to see what he and Lauri can do alongside a full-complement of healthy players and a better coach before I start doing fire sales.
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Re: What no one ever coherently explained to me about Lavine 

Post#120 » by Showtime23 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:51 pm

MrSparkle wrote:
I'm definitely not on-board with "dumping" Zach. I'm into the idea of trading him if he can net a star return like Simmons, but I realize that's a long-shot hypothetical. The decision of resigning him to a bigger contract is difficult and should be considered. But what you do have is a high-ceiling problem with problems mainly regarding fundamentals.

We know the league is different. It's not like the 80s and early 90s where guys left college with most fundamentals in-grained. Zach literally without structure. I think a few more years with Thibs and no ACL tear would've had him on the right track. I would definitely not write off a 25 year old player who averaged almost 30 ppg.

I dunno, maybe a less similar (style) but parallel player comparison would be Jerry Stackhouse.


ppg doesnt mean jack when guys like Shai (type of two way player, less usg im talking abt) already eclipsed him and this is a guy that was not a great prospect. Meaning he had a way better understanding of the game from yr 1 and already figured everything out by yr 2 to become the next perennial allstar.

How do you know whether to dump a player or not? Simply, if your committing more resources than the output he is producing, you dump him. Hence why Rose was dumped, and Noah so on. Dunno why so many are caught in fantasy land. No one is going to trade away a star for our trash and an all time talent like Simmons will never play for Chicago. Just look at his jacked muscle. Looks like the next Lebron incoming. Expecting a player that has no fundamentals whatsoever to become the next MJ is just a pipedream and hating on Lavine. I have following this guy from UCLA and wanted him drafted in the first place but def not for this 30 usg cringe.
To a lesser degree, even White has some of those concerns it really worries me literally every Chicago prospects has some serious defect.

The only counter argument for this is he is a late bloomer and literally only ws, vorp support this. The eye test, defense, rest of everything suggests he is the same player as from last yr and didnt improve one bit. Keeping him means literally your handing the entire franchise, max money to him and he better be Buckets level by that time. I dont think GMs will take that bet when at gunpoint because there is no middleground for him at this point in his career. This guy is avging so many points will come back to haunt him.

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