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OT: Knicks to pursue Thibs as HC

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Re: OT: Knicks to pursue Thibs as HC 

Post#61 » by bullsnewdynasty » Sun May 31, 2020 8:31 pm

P.C. wrote:This is silly. Thins is singlehandedly responsible for ending Derrick Roses career before it really began. He felt compelled to play Rose hurt for a half against a NO bottom rung team, which created the mess leading up to the first ACL. I can’t believe we’re still arguing this with the way Noah, Deng, Heinrich and Roses careers imploded. You can say Thibs was just behind the times by a little but what does that matter? He was behind the times in a way that destroyed careers prematurely. Plus he’s defensive schemes blow ass in the new NBA. I wouldn’t let him within ten miles of my roster.

Oh and Noah is another NY castoff.


Thibs did not end anybody's career. That is a tired trope. Blame the medical staff if anything for screwing up injury management, not the head coach.
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Re: OT: Knicks to pursue Thibs as HC 

Post#62 » by P.C. » Sun May 31, 2020 9:15 pm

bullsnewdynasty wrote:
P.C. wrote:This is silly. Thins is singlehandedly responsible for ending Derrick Roses career before it really began. He felt compelled to play Rose hurt for a half against a NO bottom rung team, which created the mess leading up to the first ACL. I can’t believe we’re still arguing this with the way Noah, Deng, Heinrich and Roses careers imploded. You can say Thibs was just behind the times by a little but what does that matter? He was behind the times in a way that destroyed careers prematurely. Plus he’s defensive schemes blow ass in the new NBA. I wouldn’t let him within ten miles of my roster.

Oh and Noah is another NY castoff.


Thibs did not end anybody's career. That is a tired trope. Blame the medical staff if anything for screwing up injury management, not the head coach.


I can blame them both -- there's enough to go around. Thib's whole thing about how if a player is cleared he should be able to play them unlimited minutes was just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. James Dolan is interested? Sounds about right.
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Re: OT: Knicks to pursue Thibs as HC 

Post#63 » by GusFring » Sun May 31, 2020 9:20 pm

I predict a firing after 1.5 seasons
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Re: OT: Knicks to pursue Thibs as HC 

Post#64 » by bullsnewdynasty » Sun May 31, 2020 9:57 pm

P.C. wrote:
bullsnewdynasty wrote:
P.C. wrote:This is silly. Thins is singlehandedly responsible for ending Derrick Roses career before it really began. He felt compelled to play Rose hurt for a half against a NO bottom rung team, which created the mess leading up to the first ACL. I can’t believe we’re still arguing this with the way Noah, Deng, Heinrich and Roses careers imploded. You can say Thibs was just behind the times by a little but what does that matter? He was behind the times in a way that destroyed careers prematurely. Plus he’s defensive schemes blow ass in the new NBA. I wouldn’t let him within ten miles of my roster.

Oh and Noah is another NY castoff.


Thibs did not end anybody's career. That is a tired trope. Blame the medical staff if anything for screwing up injury management, not the head coach.


I can blame them both -- there's enough to go around. Thib's whole thing about how if a player is cleared he should be able to play them unlimited minutes was just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. James Dolan is interested? Sounds about right.


Bulls fans are in no position to say anything about the Knicks. The Bulls are just as garbage as the Knicks over the past 3 years and we just got reminded that Reinsdorf ended a dynasty. The only success this franchise has had in the last 20 years was with Thibs.
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Re: OT: Knicks to pursue Thibs as HC 

Post#65 » by Jimako10 » Sun May 31, 2020 10:57 pm

P.C. wrote:
bullsnewdynasty wrote:
P.C. wrote:This is silly. Thins is singlehandedly responsible for ending Derrick Roses career before it really began. He felt compelled to play Rose hurt for a half against a NO bottom rung team, which created the mess leading up to the first ACL. I can’t believe we’re still arguing this with the way Noah, Deng, Heinrich and Roses careers imploded. You can say Thibs was just behind the times by a little but what does that matter? He was behind the times in a way that destroyed careers prematurely. Plus he’s defensive schemes blow ass in the new NBA. I wouldn’t let him within ten miles of my roster.

Oh and Noah is another NY castoff.


Thibs did not end anybody's career. That is a tired trope. Blame the medical staff if anything for screwing up injury management, not the head coach.


I can blame them both -- there's enough to go around. Thib's whole thing about how if a player is cleared he should be able to play them unlimited minutes was just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. James Dolan is interested? Sounds about right.



And then the injuries stopped happening after Thibs left, oh wait.....
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Re: OT: Knicks to pursue Thibs as HC 

Post#66 » by dice » Sun May 31, 2020 11:19 pm

Grodoboldo wrote:Thibs was such a good coach that the modern offensive schemes have part of their origins in trying to counter his elite defensive style...but to label him as an afterthought (sometimes by people who think Mark Jackson is a good coach) is just plain wrong.

is it not possible that the modern offensive schemes made thibs obsolete?
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Re: OT: Knicks to pursue Thibs as HC 

Post#67 » by Grodoboldo » Mon Jun 1, 2020 12:58 am

dice wrote:
Grodoboldo wrote:Thibs was such a good coach that the modern offensive schemes have part of their origins in trying to counter his elite defensive style...but to label him as an afterthought (sometimes by people who think Mark Jackson is a good coach) is just plain wrong.

is it not possible that the modern offensive schemes made thibs obsolete?


If he indeed studied and evolved during his off time, then he won't be obsolete. If not, then sure.
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Re: OT: Knicks to pursue Thibs as HC 

Post#68 » by jnrjr79 » Mon Jun 1, 2020 1:35 am

bullsnewdynasty wrote:
P.C. wrote:This is silly. Thins is singlehandedly responsible for ending Derrick Roses career before it really began. He felt compelled to play Rose hurt for a half against a NO bottom rung team, which created the mess leading up to the first ACL. I can’t believe we’re still arguing this with the way Noah, Deng, Heinrich and Roses careers imploded. You can say Thibs was just behind the times by a little but what does that matter? He was behind the times in a way that destroyed careers prematurely. Plus he’s defensive schemes blow ass in the new NBA. I wouldn’t let him within ten miles of my roster.

Oh and Noah is another NY castoff.


Thibs did not end anybody's career. That is a tired trope. Blame the medical staff if anything for screwing up injury management, not the head coach.


I don't get this. I get the argument that it isn't Thibs's fault (or anyone's), but what's the argument that the Bulls medical staff mishandled Rose's recovery/rehab? He kept himself off the court after medically cleared to return. So, he wasn't following the Bulls' plan - he was following his own.
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Re: OT: Knicks to pursue Thibs as HC 

Post#69 » by bullsnewdynasty » Mon Jun 1, 2020 2:12 am

jnrjr79 wrote:
bullsnewdynasty wrote:
P.C. wrote:This is silly. Thins is singlehandedly responsible for ending Derrick Roses career before it really began. He felt compelled to play Rose hurt for a half against a NO bottom rung team, which created the mess leading up to the first ACL. I can’t believe we’re still arguing this with the way Noah, Deng, Heinrich and Roses careers imploded. You can say Thibs was just behind the times by a little but what does that matter? He was behind the times in a way that destroyed careers prematurely. Plus he’s defensive schemes blow ass in the new NBA. I wouldn’t let him within ten miles of my roster.

Oh and Noah is another NY castoff.


Thibs did not end anybody's career. That is a tired trope. Blame the medical staff if anything for screwing up injury management, not the head coach.


I don't get this. I get the argument that it isn't Thibs's fault (or anyone's), but what's the argument that the Bulls medical staff mishandled Rose's recovery/rehab? He kept himself off the court after medically cleared to return. So, he wasn't following the Bulls' plan - he was following his own.


The other poster blamed Thibs for playing Rose in the New Orleans game he's talking about, like that was the root cause of Rose having continuous knee problems over multiple seasons, despite the fact the medical staff cleared him to play.

Only recently has it become common for young, star players to play less than 37-40 minutes per game or have load management. You can go back to the Wilt/Russell era to see that players were always playing 40+ minutes a game, while guys like Bird and Jordan played 40 minutes a game during their prime in the regular season. And if you look at the playoffs, stars played even more than that.

That is all despite modern sports training and conditioning. The idea that players today are playing more minutes and trying to find some kind of correlation with more injuries is just total nonsense that can be easily debunked.

There's a far greater correlation with explosive athletes at their position like Rose, Westbrook, Wall, Griffin, Amare having their bodies break down at a faster rate without regard for how many minutes they played.
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Re: OT: Knicks to pursue Thibs as HC 

Post#70 » by PrimzyBulls81 » Mon Jun 1, 2020 4:46 am

Blaming coach for ACL injuries is plain stupid.
I was maybe in best shape in my life and I tore my ACL, it just happens.. Wrong position, corner, landing combined with speed, force and paaap, it goes.
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Re: OT: Knicks to pursue Thibs as HC 

Post#71 » by dice » Mon Jun 1, 2020 5:26 am

PrimzyBulls81 wrote:Blaming coach for ACL injuries is plain stupid.
I was maybe in best shape in my life and I tore my ACL, it just happens.. Wrong position, corner, landing combined with speed, force and paaap, it goes.

when derrick tore his, it was on a simple jump stop. i don't know if these things have a cumulative component or are just random incidents, but either way, it's hard to blame thibs. he probably shouldn't have been in at the end of a decided game, though

overplaying noah while hobbled? yeah, i'll put some of that on thibs
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Re: OT: Knicks to pursue Thibs as HC 

Post#72 » by TheAlanParsons » Mon Jun 1, 2020 3:49 pm

Thibs is a coaching dinosaur at this point. This won't end well for the Knicks.
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Re: OT: Knicks to pursue Thibs as HC 

Post#73 » by dougthonus » Mon Jun 1, 2020 4:55 pm

TheAlanParsons wrote:Thibs is a coaching dinosaur at this point. This won't end well for the Knicks.


Maybe that's true, but I think he did a good job with the Wolves as well. I don't believe coaches make that big a difference unless they're completely incompetent or lose the team. Thibs isn't completely incompetent and won't lose the team before he even gets there. It's more likely than not he will do well for the Knicks initially.

Whether it ends well? Only a couple teams will ever have things end well with their coach. Typically this only happens when you can win a championship, and the Knicks aren't championship worthy so it probably won't end well. It probably wouldn't end well with any coach in the world if they hired him for the next season though. Bring in Pop, Kerr, whomever you might want to name, it likely wouldn't end well based on the roster.
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Re: OT: Knicks to pursue Thibs as HC 

Post#74 » by dice » Tue Jun 2, 2020 2:03 am

dougthonus wrote:
TheAlanParsons wrote:Thibs is a coaching dinosaur at this point. This won't end well for the Knicks.


Maybe that's true, but I think he did a good job with the Wolves as well. I don't believe coaches make that big a difference unless they're completely incompetent or lose the team. Thibs isn't completely incompetent and won't lose the team before he even gets there. It's more likely than not he will do well for the Knicks initially.

Whether it ends well? Only a couple teams will ever have things end well with their coach. Typically this only happens when you can win a championship, and the Knicks aren't championship worthy so it probably won't end well. It probably wouldn't end well with any coach in the world if they hired him for the next season though. Bring in Pop, Kerr, whomever you might want to name, it likely wouldn't end well based on the roster.

thibs is the kind of coach that, if successful, creates an immediate positive culture change and defensive improvement. it happened in chicago. it didn't in minnesota. was it a personnel issue or had the league caught up to him? not sure the knicks will answer that question for us
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Re: OT: Knicks to pursue Thibs as HC 

Post#75 » by dougthonus » Tue Jun 2, 2020 11:02 am

dice wrote:thibs is the kind of coach that, if successful, creates an immediate positive culture change and defensive improvement. it happened in chicago. it didn't in minnesota. was it a personnel issue or had the league caught up to him? not sure the knicks will answer that question for us


Wolves had a slight improvement (2 games) in his first year.
They won 47 games his second year (after the Butler trade though) and made the playoffs for the first time in 15 seasons.
In his 3rd year they were 19-21 when they fired him and went 17-25 after they fired him.
This year, without him, they were 19-45.

Would seem like Thibodeau generally made the Wolves a decent amount better to me.
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Re: OT: Knicks to pursue Thibs as HC 

Post#76 » by Poohdini1 » Tue Jun 2, 2020 1:39 pm

Thibs is a good coach, but not the kind who can mesh with any roster. If the players they have can handle being coached hard, he'll be fine in NY.
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Re: OT: Knicks to pursue Thibs as HC 

Post#77 » by TheAlanParsons » Tue Jun 2, 2020 9:36 pm

Poohdini1 wrote:Thibs is a good coach, but not the kind who can mesh with any roster. If the players they have can handle being coached hard, he'll be fine in NY.

His coaching philosophy is completely outdated. It's designed to stop penetration (fine), but offers up 3s like at a damn buffet. Modern offenses WANT 3s. It's a total disaster.

*I should clarify that his ICE defense gives up 3s to bigs. But modern bigs can shoot at distance, and he gives them wide open shots. Like I said, a disaster.
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Re: OT: Knicks to pursue Thibs as HC 

Post#78 » by _txchilibowl_ » Tue Jun 2, 2020 10:07 pm

TheAlanParsons wrote:
Poohdini1 wrote:Thibs is a good coach, but not the kind who can mesh with any roster. If the players they have can handle being coached hard, he'll be fine in NY.

His coaching philosophy is completely outdated. It's designed to stop penetration (fine), but offers up 3s like at a damn buffet. Modern offenses WANT 3s. It's a total disaster.

*I should clarify that his ICE defense gives up 3s to bigs. But modern bigs can shoot at distance, and he gives them wide open shots. Like I said, a disaster.



And like others have said, if he hasn't adjusted to the modern NBA then you would be correct. I just find that to be very, very unlikely.

What's probably happened is Thibs has been pouring over game tape like a maniac until 3 am every night...just for fun. If current offenses have a weakness to exploit he would be the guy to find it....
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Re: OT: Knicks to pursue Thibs as HC 

Post#79 » by PaKii94 » Tue Jun 2, 2020 11:31 pm

TheAlanParsons wrote:
Poohdini1 wrote:Thibs is a good coach, but not the kind who can mesh with any roster. If the players they have can handle being coached hard, he'll be fine in NY.

His coaching philosophy is completely outdated. It's designed to stop penetration (fine), but offers up 3s like at a damn buffet. Modern offenses WANT 3s. It's a total disaster.

*I should clarify that his ICE defense gives up 3s to bigs. But modern bigs can shoot at distance, and he gives them wide open shots. Like I said, a disaster.


That's the type of defense the bucks are doing. Teams need to shoot to beat them

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/few-teams-have-ever-defended-like-these-milwaukee-bucks/

Even more surprising: Milwaukee has managed to lock down opposing offenses despite surrendering one of the largest shares of 3-point tries of any club, something once thought to be a no-no from an analytics standpoint.

Yet there’s a bit of nuance involved in how the Bucks go about defending. Yes, they give up more threes than any other team. But much like the San Antonio Spurs did years ago, Milwaukee can be quite selective about which opposing players — often poor-shooting ones — get those looks.

The Bucks’ decision to play so far off the 3-point line — normally done by keeping center Brook Lopez firmly in the paint, even in pick-and-pop scenarios — is rooted in the makeup of their roster: long-limbed players and great rim protectors
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Re: OT: Knicks to pursue Thibs as HC 

Post#80 » by dice » Wed Jun 3, 2020 12:41 am

dougthonus wrote:
dice wrote:thibs is the kind of coach that, if successful, creates an immediate positive culture change and defensive improvement. it happened in chicago. it didn't in minnesota. was it a personnel issue or had the league caught up to him? not sure the knicks will answer that question for us


Wolves had a slight improvement (2 games) in his first year.

regression to the mean is expected, though. and probably more than 2 games given how bad that team was and how young they were. and taking over for a coach who is not particularly highly regarded

They won 47 games his second year (after the Butler trade though) and made the playoffs for the first time in 15 seasons.

yeah, hard to judge that season

In his 3rd year they were 19-21 when they fired him and went 17-25 after they fired him.

fair point

This year, without him, they were 19-45.[/quote]
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