Image ImageImage Image

Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls

Moderators: HomoSapien, dougthonus, kulaz3000, fleet, RedBulls23, Ice Man, Tommy Udo 6 , AshyLarrysDiaper, GimmeDat, DASMACKDOWN, Payt10

PrimzyBulls81
Veteran
Posts: 2,937
And1: 735
Joined: Feb 09, 2013
       

Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#81 » by PrimzyBulls81 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:32 am

Red8911 wrote:
PrimzyBulls81 wrote:
Red8911 wrote:What’s going on with the bulls is Udoka or Griffin the best coaches they can bring in to build this team back to the playoffs? I would be very disappointed with them if it’s true.

They have two available coaches in Atkinson and Joerger who have actual head coaching experience and have proved themselves yet we haven’t even heard their names come up. Again I hope this isn’t true and when Boylen does get fired I really hope they at least try to get those two. I’m sorry but Udoka and Griffin can’t be the first options, bulls need real change not another puppet coach.


Are you kidding me? Come on, man.. We should be really happy with either one of those two young upcoming guys.
You can be happy if they get one of them. I won’t, I think it’s a perfect opportunity to hire an experienced head coach for once. I’m sick of the bulls taking chances like they did with Hoiberg and Boylen. I want to see them make the playoffs!

Do you even know anything about Udoka to say you want him other than he’s an assistant coach and is black? I bet 90% here didn’t even know Udoka existed a month ago. Same with AK, everyone is so excited but don’t even know who the hell he is lol.


Well thats on you then, I knew who they were very well lol! We need a developement coach for this young team, we dont need a veteran head coach at all. Young upcoming coach that can grew together with the team and Im pretty sure that guys will be much better than Fred or Jimbo.
Ralphb07
RealGM
Posts: 27,023
And1: 5,928
Joined: Jul 04, 2004
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#82 » by Ralphb07 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:15 am

Red8911 wrote:What’s going on with the bulls is Udoka or Griffin the best coaches they can bring in to build this team back to the playoffs? I would be very disappointed with them if it’s true.

They have two available coaches in Atkinson and Joerger who have actual head coaching experience and have proved themselves yet we haven’t even heard their names come up. Again I hope this isn’t true and when Boylen does get fired I really hope they at least try to get those two. I’m sorry but Udoka and Griffin can’t be the first options, bulls need real change not another puppet coach.


Ime nor Griffin will be puppet coaches. Both guys are known for being very good in the development department. Both are tough minded guys who players just love as they know how to communicate with them. They are both top assistants in the league and more than ready to move over to the HC seat. I would be upset with Atkinson as he only had one good season and couldn’t get along with the stars.

Joerger I’d be okay with but he is still behind Ime and Griffin for me. Ime and Griffin are homerun choices in my book.
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 46,612
And1: 6,818
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:

Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#83 » by dougthonus » Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:07 am

coldfish wrote:
TheFinishSniper wrote:
Chi town wrote:
Yep.

Pax's fetish when he started GM career. Too bad ceiling of those teams and prospects is at best 2nd round exit. I really hope AK can distinguish those kind of prospects and talent of those teams with finding rare gems between them.


Pax always liked specialists. Ben Gordon scores, Ben Wallace / Chandler plays defense, Korver shoots, Duhon brings the ball up, Boozer posts, etc. It was one of the biggest failings of his tenure, IMHO. Luol Deng and Butler might have been the only two way players that he had.

Toronto is an example of a team that likes two way players and they have done fine with it. You still need a star level player or two to be truly competitive regardless but having two way players is a good thing.

Pretty much everyone currently on the roster is in trouble by this criteria. All of them have significant concerns on one side of the court (Wendell - offense, Lauri - defense, Coby - defense, Lavine - defense). Its actually a pretty good example of how building a team of non-two way players frequently fails. There are too many holes to fill.


:dontknow:

Carter projected as a 2 way player, White projected as a two way player, Dunn projected as a two way player (just one that isn't a good shooter), Hutchison they definitely hoped would be a two way player. Of the guys on this team that are one way players when acquired, it's maybe Lauri and LaVine.

I think their players just haven't been as good as hoped for, and they haven't developed on both sides of the ball rather than they sought out to get one way talent. Really most players in the league have at least one pretty big weakness.
User avatar
coldfish
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 49,594
And1: 18,965
Joined: Jun 11, 2004
Location: Right in the middle
 

Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#84 » by coldfish » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:36 pm

dougthonus wrote:
coldfish wrote:
TheFinishSniper wrote:Pax's fetish when he started GM career. Too bad ceiling of those teams and prospects is at best 2nd round exit. I really hope AK can distinguish those kind of prospects and talent of those teams with finding rare gems between them.


Pax always liked specialists. Ben Gordon scores, Ben Wallace / Chandler plays defense, Korver shoots, Duhon brings the ball up, Boozer posts, etc. It was one of the biggest failings of his tenure, IMHO. Luol Deng and Butler might have been the only two way players that he had.

Toronto is an example of a team that likes two way players and they have done fine with it. You still need a star level player or two to be truly competitive regardless but having two way players is a good thing.

Pretty much everyone currently on the roster is in trouble by this criteria. All of them have significant concerns on one side of the court (Wendell - offense, Lauri - defense, Coby - defense, Lavine - defense). Its actually a pretty good example of how building a team of non-two way players frequently fails. There are too many holes to fill.


:dontknow:

Carter projected as a 2 way player, White projected as a two way player, Dunn projected as a two way player (just one that isn't a good shooter), Hutchison they definitely hoped would be a two way player. Of the guys on this team that are one way players when acquired, it's maybe Lauri and LaVine.

I think their players just haven't been as good as hoped for, and they haven't developed on both sides of the ball rather than they sought out to get one way talent. Really most players in the league have at least one pretty big weakness.


So . . . you think Paxson liked two way players but just really sucked at identifying them?
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 46,612
And1: 6,818
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:

Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#85 » by dougthonus » Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:10 pm

coldfish wrote:So . . . you think Paxson liked two way players but just really sucked at identifying them?


No, I think that probably no more than 5-10% of the league qualifies as 2 way players and that it simply isn't typically a choice to get one.

It's like saying I want star players. Yeah, sure, no duh. So does everyone else.
imagge
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,260
And1: 304
Joined: Feb 13, 2009

Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#86 » by imagge » Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:16 pm

Real 2 way players have a name....they are call ed superstars. Everyone else fills a role...Please name me a role player who is a 2 way player...Deng was not a 2 way player, he was a very good role player, he too was limited on the offensive end. 2 way players are good defenders as well as versatile offensive players
User avatar
coldfish
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 49,594
And1: 18,965
Joined: Jun 11, 2004
Location: Right in the middle
 

Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#87 » by coldfish » Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:36 pm

dougthonus wrote:
coldfish wrote:So . . . you think Paxson liked two way players but just really sucked at identifying them?


No, I think that probably no more than 5-10% of the league qualifies as 2 way players and that it simply isn't typically a choice to get one.

It's like saying I want star players. Yeah, sure, no duh. So does everyone else.


Do you think Norman Powell is a star? Fred VanVleet?

I think we are talking about different things. Paxson had a tendency to accumulate players who were complete liabilities on one side of the court. Noah, Wallace, Gordon, Korver, McDermott, Bogans, Boozer, etc. I think that most players are unbalanced in that they are best at one aspect of the game but I don't think its fair to compare them to the Boozer like defense or Wallace like offense that Paxson frequently put on the court.

A good chunk of the NBA is passably competent on both sides of the court. That's what some of us mean by "two way player".
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 46,612
And1: 6,818
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:

Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#88 » by dougthonus » Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:53 pm

coldfish wrote:
Do you think Norman Powell is a star? Fred VanVleet?

I think we are talking about different things. Paxson had a tendency to accumulate players who were complete liabilities on one side of the court. Noah, Wallace, Gordon, Korver, McDermott, Bogans, Boozer, etc. I think that most players are unbalanced in that they are best at one aspect of the game but I don't think its fair to compare them to the Boozer like defense or Wallace like offense that Paxson frequently put on the court.

A good chunk of the NBA is passably competent on both sides of the court. That's what some of us mean by "two way player".


Through them into a few buckets.

Noah had plenty of offensive skills and is a two way player by that definition. Bogans was making the BAE and was just a scrub and isn't even worth mentioning in the list.

Bulls chased three different two way players ahead of Boozer, but didn't get them. It wasn't a matter of thinking "wow, Boozer is our #1 target", there weren't viable alternatives to Wallace except saving the money that would have disappeared the next year. Korver/McDermott were specialists, but most teams have a shooting specialists, and the Bulls definitely needed one.

:dontknow:

Lots of other guys on the team whom were in the rotation weren't specialists (Hinrich, Nocioni, Tyrus, Salmons, Miller).
User avatar
TheSuzerain
RealGM
Posts: 12,882
And1: 8,062
Joined: Mar 29, 2012

Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#89 » by TheSuzerain » Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:57 pm

dougthonus wrote:
coldfish wrote:
TheFinishSniper wrote:Pax's fetish when he started GM career. Too bad ceiling of those teams and prospects is at best 2nd round exit. I really hope AK can distinguish those kind of prospects and talent of those teams with finding rare gems between them.


Pax always liked specialists. Ben Gordon scores, Ben Wallace / Chandler plays defense, Korver shoots, Duhon brings the ball up, Boozer posts, etc. It was one of the biggest failings of his tenure, IMHO. Luol Deng and Butler might have been the only two way players that he had.

Toronto is an example of a team that likes two way players and they have done fine with it. You still need a star level player or two to be truly competitive regardless but having two way players is a good thing.

Pretty much everyone currently on the roster is in trouble by this criteria. All of them have significant concerns on one side of the court (Wendell - offense, Lauri - defense, Coby - defense, Lavine - defense). Its actually a pretty good example of how building a team of non-two way players frequently fails. There are too many holes to fill.


:dontknow:

Carter projected as a 2 way player, White projected as a two way player, Dunn projected as a two way player (just one that isn't a good shooter), Hutchison they definitely hoped would be a two way player. Of the guys on this team that are one way players when acquired, it's maybe Lauri and LaVine.

I think their players just haven't been as good as hoped for, and they haven't developed on both sides of the ball rather than they sought out to get one way talent. Really most players in the league have at least one pretty big weakness.

I mean that's some **** projection by GarPax if they expected those guys to be 2-way.

Carter is probably the only one on that list who actually projected to be 2-way.
Chi town
RealGM
Posts: 17,265
And1: 3,605
Joined: Aug 10, 2004

Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#90 » by Chi town » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:03 pm

Charles Lee anyone? 6 years under Coach Bud.
User avatar
TheSuzerain
RealGM
Posts: 12,882
And1: 8,062
Joined: Mar 29, 2012

Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#91 » by TheSuzerain » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:10 pm

Udoka seems like a strong candidate to me. Let's get it done.
User avatar
MrFortune3
Head Coach
Posts: 6,142
And1: 1,832
Joined: Jul 03, 2010
         

Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#92 » by MrFortune3 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:17 pm

imagge wrote:Real 2 way players have a name....they are call ed superstars. Everyone else fills a role...Please name me a role player who is a 2 way player...Deng was not a 2 way player, he was a very good role player, he too was limited on the offensive end. 2 way players are good defenders as well as versatile offensive players


Most two way players are not superstars and most superstars are not two way players. That’s why guys like Kawhi, PG13 and etc get heavily lauded as 2 way guys and being star or superstars.
rmlsr
Freshman
Posts: 52
And1: 21
Joined: Jul 13, 2010

Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#93 » by rmlsr » Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:09 pm

MrFortune3 wrote:
imagge wrote:Real 2 way players have a name....they are call ed superstars. Everyone else fills a role...Please name me a role player who is a 2 way player...Deng was not a 2 way player, he was a very good role player, he too was limited on the offensive end. 2 way players are good defenders as well as versatile offensive players


Most two way players are not superstars and most superstars are not two way players. That’s why guys like Kawhi, PG13 and etc get heavily lauded as 2 way guys and being star or superstars.


Agree 100%
User avatar
beeshma
Pro Prospect
Posts: 978
And1: 438
Joined: Mar 24, 2011

Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#94 » by beeshma » Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:10 pm

Griffin as coach signals that Reinsdorf loyalists are still the preferred hires.
User avatar
TheFinishSniper
Veteran
Posts: 2,930
And1: 2,328
Joined: Feb 02, 2018
Location: Earth
   

Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#95 » by TheFinishSniper » Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:49 pm

beeshma wrote:Griffin as coach signals that Reinsdorf loyalists are still the preferred hires.

Griff is top candidate for most of open head coaching jobs. This has nothing to do with reinsdorf.
“If you were grading rebuilds and dropped in on the United Center on Wednesday night, you saw one team flying up the court, launching 3-pointers, sharing the ball and generally looking like it was having a lot of fun. And then you saw the Bulls.”
MrSparkle
RealGM
Posts: 15,515
And1: 5,159
Joined: Jul 31, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#96 » by MrSparkle » Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:20 pm

MrFortune3 wrote:
imagge wrote:Real 2 way players have a name....they are call ed superstars. Everyone else fills a role...Please name me a role player who is a 2 way player...Deng was not a 2 way player, he was a very good role player, he too was limited on the offensive end. 2 way players are good defenders as well as versatile offensive players


Most two way players are not superstars and most superstars are not two way players. That’s why guys like Kawhi, PG13 and etc get heavily lauded as 2 way guys and being star or superstars.


Yeah. I think there is a type of player good teams pursue that are basically "two-way qualified." Of course not everyone is Kawhi or Jordan.

Even the lotto/tank Warriors, you look up and down their roster of G-League players, and they actually intentionally still loaded up on what I consider two-way players. Athletic, big, multi-position defenders; some semblance of handling and shooting skill. Looney, Paschall, Poole, Lee.

Not saying they're great. On the other hand, you saw that they can be impact players in finals games (Looney's case), and the Warriors scrap-heap after the ACLs was still pretty competitive against the strong finals Raptors. But there is a significant difference in that type of player, and then a Kornet, Shaq, Dunn, Lauri, Wendell and Gafford. Or Doug, Noah, Boozer, Asik, etc. To make it really straight-forward and simple; Warriors, Heat, Lakers, Raptors, Clippers mostly bought stock in wings or tweeners with frame/mobility and crossover skills, as opposed to points or bigs with one-position skills.

And I think the pay-off is better with those types of players.

Same with the Lakers. Even at their old age... they have wings and tweeners comprising 75% of the roster. The least money they spent went towards their old vet min centers and PG who were all-stars in the game NBA Live 07. :lol:

I'd say Thad is like 1/2 the way there, though quite stiff with the ball. Otto and Hutchinson are the only guys I can say with confidence are that type of 2-player wing with versatility mobility and size... and Hutch just seems a step slow and mediocre in every attribute.
User avatar
beeshma
Pro Prospect
Posts: 978
And1: 438
Joined: Mar 24, 2011

Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#97 » by beeshma » Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:56 am

TheFinishSniper wrote:
beeshma wrote:Griffin as coach signals that Reinsdorf loyalists are still the preferred hires.

Griff is top candidate for most of open head coaching jobs. This has nothing to do with reinsdorf.


I am not seeing any news stories that claim Griffin is being considered.

https://www.google.com/search?q=adrian+griffin&client=safari&rls=en&sxsrf=ALeKk00_zmRy0037pa1OxXWaG2ylmWfEqw:1591836803982&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwihnPeZxvjpAhV5CTQIHaoFBeYQ_AUoAXoECBwQAw&biw=1179&bih=706&dpr=2
User avatar
MrFortune3
Head Coach
Posts: 6,142
And1: 1,832
Joined: Jul 03, 2010
         

Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#98 » by MrFortune3 » Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:25 am

MrSparkle wrote:
MrFortune3 wrote:
imagge wrote:Real 2 way players have a name....they are call ed superstars. Everyone else fills a role...Please name me a role player who is a 2 way player...Deng was not a 2 way player, he was a very good role player, he too was limited on the offensive end. 2 way players are good defenders as well as versatile offensive players


Most two way players are not superstars and most superstars are not two way players. That’s why guys like Kawhi, PG13 and etc get heavily lauded as 2 way guys and being star or superstars.


Yeah. I think there is a type of player good teams pursue that are basically "two-way qualified." Of course not everyone is Kawhi or Jordan.

Even the lotto/tank Warriors, you look up and down their roster of G-League players, and they actually intentionally still loaded up on what I consider two-way players. Athletic, big, multi-position defenders; some semblance of handling and shooting skill. Looney, Paschall, Poole, Lee.

Not saying they're great. On the other hand, you saw that they can be impact players in finals games (Looney's case), and the Warriors scrap-heap after the ACLs was still pretty competitive against the strong finals Raptors. But there is a significant difference in that type of player, and then a Kornet, Shaq, Dunn, Lauri, Wendell and Gafford. Or Doug, Noah, Boozer, Asik, etc. To make it really straight-forward and simple; Warriors, Heat, Lakers, Raptors, Clippers mostly bought stock in wings or tweeners with frame/mobility and crossover skills, as opposed to points or bigs with one-position skills.

And I think the pay-off is better with those types of players.

Same with the Lakers. Even at their old age... they have wings and tweeners comprising 75% of the roster. The least money they spent went towards their old vet min centers and PG who were all-stars in the game NBA Live 07. :lol:

I'd say Thad is like 1/2 the way there, though quite stiff with the ball. Otto and Hutchinson are the only guys I can say with confidence are that type of 2-player wing with versatility mobility and size... and Hutch just seems a step slow and mediocre in every attribute.


Another issue is the system in which the players are utilized. A team like the Raptors use those guys in a certain way and their team thrives on it.
User avatar
HomoSapien
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 27,903
And1: 16,209
Joined: Aug 17, 2009
 

Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#99 » by HomoSapien » Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:28 am

beeshma wrote:Griffin as coach signals that Reinsdorf loyalists are still the preferred hires.


Just because he has a history with the Bulls doesn't mean he's a Reinsdorf loyalist.
ThreeYearPlan wrote:Bulls fans defend HomoSapien more than Rose.
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 46,612
And1: 6,818
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:

Re: Cowley : Ime Udoka HC Frontrunner for Bulls 

Post#100 » by dougthonus » Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:08 am

PrimzyBulls81 wrote:Well thats on you then, I knew who they were very well lol! We need a developement coach for this young team, we dont need a veteran head coach at all. Young upcoming coach that can grew together with the team and Im pretty sure that guys will be much better than Fred or Jimbo.


I'm not saying Udoka is limited to player development or is a bad candidate, but a development coach is not a head coach. Udoka needs to be hired due to his head coaching skills, leadership, strategy, scheme, not due to player development skills. That's the peter principle at work if you do that and he doesn't have the head coaching skills but is good at player development. As head coach, he'll spend very little time working on that with players (or if he does, then he will be ignoring his real responsibilities).

Again, not saying that will be the case abut Udoka, I know nothing about him really other than that he was a role player and was regarded well as a future coaching candidate. I feel more comfortable with Griffin in his abilities in those areas based on what we've heard about him over the years, but that's just because I'm more familiar with him due to his Bulls ties so have actually heard things about him.

Return to Chicago Bulls