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Growing number of players are expressing concern about resuming season, young stars want league paid insurance

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Re: Growing number of players are expressing concern about resuming season, young stars want league paid insurance 

Post#41 » by MrFortune3 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:40 am

The protests and the violence that came out of them has shocked some people into reality. You cannot look anywhere be it online, in the news or during sporting event without seeing the residual influence of the movement to create change.

I hate to see that it had to come to this for a real spotlight to be shown on the issues and force it not to go away.
Last time these issue crept up people hid behind the flag and swept things under the rug. People are not allowing that to happen this time.

It's similar to what Eminem once said in I am "Middle America, now it's a tragedy
Now it's so sad to see, an upper-class city havin' this happening"

When the situation hits close to home and when the violence and protests spill into those usually comfortable and safe cities, now you see people begin to understand that "Oh, this will effect me too". Then it becomes a part of your reality and forces you to confront and deal with the issues at hand.

I fully understand the players want to ensure that the moment does not pass the movement by, I still believe however that more good will be done by them playing and speaking out every pre-game, in game and post game rather than simply being in the streets themselves.
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Re: Growing number of players are expressing concern about resuming season, young stars want league paid insurance 

Post#42 » by dougthonus » Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:53 am

sonny wrote:Players have already done commercials, wore shirts, given speeches, the guys that want to sit out clearly feel that what they were doing before isn't enough.


To make the movement work, you need public sentiment on your side. I think that is here now regardless of what the NBA does, but it's hard to say. I think in the end, the most important thing you can do is bring people together now and not drive them apart. Right now this issue has massive approval by white people (which is the majority of the populace and absolutely required for change) and for lasting change to be implemented that needs to stay that way.

To add, this is the time for players to speak up. The NBA got ahead of itself when they said that resuming the season was approved.


The NBA and NBPA agreed to this return in principle. I think its silly to blame either side for getting ahead of themselves as of course they were going to announce that. The deal was likely deep in negotiation before Floyd was murdered and neither side probably thought this was an even remotely relevant point to the negotiation which finished right around the time the tapes went public.

The players association is the party responsible for ensuring the players agree to the deal, so if anyone was out in front of their skis it was the NBPA, but they probably weren't either. At the time this was agreed, I doubt any players were thinking to sit out the season based on the Floyd murder. I think it was Kyrie bringing up a ground swell of support long after the fact that potentially alters/kills this deal (for better or worse).

It wasn't that this was something where the NBA and NBPA announced something that one side didn't really think would get done or that they weren't negotiating in good faith. After the agreement, circumstances and the climate changed to where there is now new information impacting the details that didn't exist at the time of original agreement.

At any rate, I don't blame either side here. We're talking about two sides negotiating what to do in the first world wide pandemic in 100 years and figuring it out when racial tensions then blow up to be as big as they've been in the last 50 years. As the saying goes, trying to replace the engine of a jet plane while it's flying. Just a tough spot for both sides.

I would love to see the players and league come up with a united front on what to do this year (regardless of what it is). I'd love to see solidarity with the league agreeing to cancel the season together or the players agreeing to play with the league dedicating the season to Floyd and using money for funding or whatever joint agreement can be figured out. It'd be great if both sides can find a way to do that.
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Re: Growing number of players are expressing concern about resuming season, young stars want league paid insurance 

Post#43 » by MGB8 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:19 pm

sonny wrote:
MGB8 wrote:
sonny wrote:
Read on Twitter


Rich guy doesn’t want to give fair share to his own community, who he cares sooo much about.

That's not the point he was making and is partially the reason that some players want to sit out.

Players have done everything people in this thread are suggesting and will continue to do so, but they don't feel like it's enough.

Saying stuff like wanting to sit out to ensure that the attention that has been given to an important issue, brought to the forefront isn't interfered with is disrespectful to the game of basketball, is part of the reason some players want to sit out.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29303800/bucks-george-hill-reflects-racism-says-basketball-last-thought-my-mind

With the topics of systematic racism, social injustice and racial inequity in the national spotlight, both Turner and Hill admitted it's tough to think about basketball.

"I've been working every day since this all started with my body, my game and things like that, but as a whole, I can care less about basketball right now," Hill said. "That's like my last worry. That's just the game I'm blessed to play. When the ball goes up in the air, I'm ready to play, I love the competitive side of it, but that's not who I am. So, that's my last thought on my mind is basketball. I can care less what's going on. I think there's bigger issues and bigger things to tackle in life right now than a basketball game, but that's just my personal opinion."


Meh, I think Hill's other comment was more illuminating. You have immigrants who spend a chunk of money to come illegally into this country, and then send back 50% or more of what they earn to their families and communities.

But folks who actually get out of bad socio-economic circumstances in the US... "why should I keep sending money, the government has more than enough."

Guess what, government money does get lavished on worse off socio-economic locations... but, because it's directed by folks in government, it's not particularly effective. Lots gets redirected to connected people who don't necessarily accomplish much good for the community. Sometimes that's direct, a la "contractors" with ties to so and so politician. Sometimes indirect, to include things like inflating the cost of higher education. And it isn't just federal dollars... I've lived in Philly and Chicago... if you pay attention to where the state and local money goes... And even when the when money is more efficiently utilized, the incentives created by the money actually harm the community.

The bottom line is that there are a lot of legal-structural issues (none of which are simple - if you want police officers to act with more restraint in situations that could be dangerous for them, for instance, you actually need to harden them, spending more money on armored vehicles, better body armor, and alternative technologies for incapacitating suspects). But more than that, there are socio-economic issues - which can really only be addressed by the community itself. Absence of fathers. Decline in former community pillars like Churches - which provided a network of support for people in a way that "government" never can. And this isn't just in black communities - you see it in failing poorer white communities as well, along with increases in drug abuse, crime, and generational poverty.

And the one thing that folks who care about those communities can do to help is provide jobs... but how many do? How many set up shoe and clothing lines, manufactured in China... and yet once established, they choose not to bring back production of $500 bags and $100 shoes to the US (where a profit could still be made, just less)? Because "ME" is, ultimately, far more important than "WE" to these hypocrites --- and all the rest is posturing.

Makes sense, though. They care so much about racism that though China is literally imprisoning millions of Muslims just because of their faith, while subjugating Hong Kong to their dictatorship (and if you want to talk about racist cultures...) ... well, we can't talk about that, might impact the money train.
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Re: Growing number of players are expressing concern about resuming season, young stars want league paid insurance 

Post#44 » by keobulls » Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:25 pm

I have two questions to help get perspective of others that are in other areas and situations: First, with all of the talk about black/white divide, what do people think or have noticed about the urban/rural divide? Second, following the logic of government and police departments needing to change things, do you think the political blow back will be directed at the governments of the areas that these things are happening (i.e. Minneapolis, Atlanta, Seattle and their states)? I am just learning about how these governments all seem to have Democrat ideas and policies that are supposed to help people of color and those of lower SES. Thanks.
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Re: Growing number of players are expressing concern about resuming season, young stars want league paid insurance 

Post#45 » by patagonia » Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:52 pm

I have a hard time believing the players can have a greater impact by not playing than by using the games to spread their message. They could have PSAs, halftime messages, get out the vote campaigns, players speaking before games, etc - all while millions of people are watching. I'm not convinced the audience will be bigger or more impacted otherwise.
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Re: Growing number of players are expressing concern about resuming season, young stars want league paid insurance 

Post#46 » by jc23 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:59 pm

patagonia wrote:I have a hard time believing the players can have a greater impact by not playing than by using the games to spread their message. They could have PSAs, halftime messages, get out the vote campaigns, players speaking before games, etc - all while millions of people are watching. I'm not convinced the audience will be bigger or more impacted otherwise.


this is true because we all know peoples attention spans are limited today, whether the nba returns or not people will find ways of entertaining themselves. Now if they said they were planning on using the time to organize and protest in their own way thats a different story.
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Re: Growing number of players are expressing concern about resuming season, young stars want league paid insurance 

Post#47 » by Markksman_24 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:04 pm

patagonia wrote:I have a hard time believing the players can have a greater impact by not playing than by using the games to spread their message. They could have PSAs, halftime messages, get out the vote campaigns, players speaking before games, etc - all while millions of people are watching. I'm not convinced the audience will be bigger or more impacted otherwise.

This is a fair concern but I also think part of the players' point is that PSAs and encouraging voting can only do so much, especially when a) both of these are already being done and b) voting when both major political parties prefer the status quo will not truly change anything.

If you agree with those points, then scrapping the rest of the season (in order to find some other way to advocate for change and/or protest) might be the best option.
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Re: Growing number of players are expressing concern about resuming season, young stars want league paid insurance 

Post#48 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:08 pm

I kind of think this whole bubble playoffs in Orlando is silly. Why not just gear up and focus on the 2021 season and do that correctly? It’s only a few months after August.

One thing I’ll say is the media cycle is very fast and vicious. If something else comes along in a month and captivates America, these players may feel awfully stupid. And maybe that’s the point, is they want continued attention, but they’ll have to fight against the new and shiny object the media has clung to at that time. They could end up looking really silly.
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Re: Growing number of players are expressing concern about resuming season, young stars want league paid insurance 

Post#49 » by MrSparkle » Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:59 pm

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:I kind of think this whole bubble playoffs in Orlando is silly. Why not just gear up and focus on the 2021 season and do that correctly? It’s only a few months after August.

One thing I’ll say is the media cycle is very fast and vicious. If something else comes along in a month and captivates America, these players may feel awfully stupid. And maybe that’s the point, is they want continued attention, but they’ll have to fight against the new and shiny object the media has clung to at that time. They could end up looking really silly.


The far worst scenario is watching a 2nd wave hit harder and NBA canceling the entire 21/22 season as well, leaving the NBA furloughed for an unsustainable 18 months.
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Re: Growing number of players are expressing concern about resuming season, young stars want league paid insurance 

Post#50 » by dougthonus » Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:13 pm

From the wiretap:

Plan to resume does not appear in jeopardy.

Over 100 NBA players participated in a conference call on Friday in which Kyrie Irving made a case against resuming the season, but reporting from ESPN in discussing the issue with players, agents, the NBPA and league officials found no indication that the resume-to-play plan in Orlando is in jeopardy.

There's not believed to be a significant group of players ready to sit out.

There are some players who are expected to decide not to play, but not enough to compromise the league's plans to return. The plan was approved by owners 29-1 and by team represenatives 28-0.
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Re: Growing number of players are expressing concern about resuming season, young stars want league paid insurance 

Post#51 » by Mbrahv0528 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:14 pm

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:I kind of think this whole bubble playoffs in Orlando is silly. Why not just gear up and focus on the 2021 season and do that correctly? It’s only a few months after August.

One thing I’ll say is the media cycle is very fast and vicious. If something else comes along in a month and captivates America, these players may feel awfully stupid. And maybe that’s the point, is they want continued attention, but they’ll have to fight against the new and shiny object the media has clung to at that time. They could end up looking really silly.
I think you're misunderstanding their position dude. They DON'T want the attention, they want to keep the attention on the BLM movement. How you got the opposite out of that is beyond me.

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Re: Growing number of players are expressing concern about resuming season, young stars want league paid insurance 

Post#52 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:31 pm

Mbrahv0528 wrote:
Chicago-Bull-E wrote:I kind of think this whole bubble playoffs in Orlando is silly. Why not just gear up and focus on the 2021 season and do that correctly? It’s only a few months after August.

One thing I’ll say is the media cycle is very fast and vicious. If something else comes along in a month and captivates America, these players may feel awfully stupid. And maybe that’s the point, is they want continued attention, but they’ll have to fight against the new and shiny object the media has clung to at that time. They could end up looking really silly.
I think you're misunderstanding their position dude. They DON'T want the attention, they want to keep the attention on the BLM movement. How you got the opposite out of that is beyond me.

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You misread my post bruh. When I say "If they want continued attention", they want it on BLM. No one thinks the players want all the attention to themselves come August, that makes no sense.

If the media turns their attention to Coronavirus, or China, or the election, or whatever the next destructive force is, people will be asking in August "Why isn't there NBA", "Oh yeah, it's cause of the BLM movement back in June". Might not turn out well.
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Re: Growing number of players are expressing concern about resuming season, young stars want league paid insurance 

Post#53 » by League Circles » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:37 pm

I think people should do what they want. If that involves quitting their nba job or taking a sabbatical to pursue police justice, that's a virtuous thing to do. That said, the NBA has already been slowing losing my interest for the last few years for a variety of reasons, and that was before covid. If it is further delayed because players want focus to be on protest efforts, idk, it just may end up that I don't really ever come back. Not out of spite or resentment or anything, just because frankly I'm getting used to life without the nba, and if and when it comes back, it will have to compete with everything else going on.

In no way, shape or form do I really care what anyone associated with the NBA has to say regarding public policy of any type. Not that individuals may not have some quality thoughts on it, I just don't have time to consider the random thoughts on these complex issues from a random group of a few hundred pro athletes, any more than I have time to consider the opinions of, say, a particular school district's employees in Alaska opinion's on what the federal reserve should do with monetary policy.
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Re: Growing number of players are expressing concern about resuming season, young stars want league paid insurance 

Post#54 » by Red8911 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:55 pm

_txchilibowl_ wrote:
Red8911 wrote:If players don’t want to play at the end of July over this then they should get fined. I’m sorry this isn’t a good enough reason not to play, these guys get way too overpaid to just decide to take off whenever they feel like it. This is straight up disrespecting the NBA, the fans and the game of basketball. Irving especially is always looking for different ways to not play.



They're actually underpaid but whatever....talent almost always is.

You seem to view these guys as a product you're entitled to when in reality they don't owe you anything. Basketball will come back someday...I promise you. And it will be as great as you remember it. But until then we might have to show some patience as these players navigate the greatest social uprising of their lifetimes. And this pesky pandemic too.

Show some compassion dude. They'll probably play.

Underpaid ? Really lol, so you think they should be making more than the ridiculous amount they currently make?

They don’t owe me anything but they do owe the the teams that pay for them. These guys make millions, have their mansions, their expensive cars/lifestyle, living the life all for just playing basketball. Then you have some of them that don’t want to play for no reason, they don’t appreciate what they were given and how lucky they are.

Anyway this isn’t going to happen and they will play on schedule but still this pisses me off that these players would even mention not wanting to play.
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Re: Growing number of players are expressing concern about resuming season, young stars want league paid insurance 

Post#55 » by dougthonus » Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:15 pm

_txchilibowl_ wrote:They're actually underpaid but whatever....talent almost always is.

You seem to view these guys as a product you're entitled to when in reality they don't owe you anything. Basketball will come back someday...I promise you. And it will be as great as you remember it. But until then we might have to show some patience as these players navigate the greatest social uprising of their lifetimes. And this pesky pandemic too.

Show some compassion dude. They'll probably play.


By what basis do you think the NBA players are underpaid? The players in the NBA make more or less the same percentage of revenue as all four major US sports (slightly better than the NFL which is 48.5%), 49-51% band has probably almost always been at 51% which would put them above the NFL (50/50), and baseball which is 48.5-51.5.

Seems like overall, they are fairly compensated relative to their peers in other sports compared to the money they bring in.
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Re: Growing number of players are expressing concern about resuming season, young stars want league paid insurance 

Post#56 » by dougthonus » Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:17 pm

Red8911 wrote:Underpaid ? Really lol, so you think they should be making more than the ridiculous amount they currently make?

They don’t owe me anything but they do owe the the teams that pay for them. These guys make millions, have their mansions, their expensive cars/lifestyle, living the life all for just playing basketball. Then you have some of them that don’t want to play for no reason, they don’t appreciate what they were given and how lucky they are.

Anyway this isn’t going to happen and they will play on schedule but still this pisses me off that these players would even mention not wanting to play.


They generate billions. I wouldn't say they're underpaid, because their share is pretty much the same as every other pro-sports share, but overpaid is also untrue.
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Re: Growing number of players are expressing concern about resuming season, young stars want league paid insurance 

Post#57 » by sonny » Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:27 pm

MGB8 wrote:
sonny wrote:
MGB8 wrote:
Rich guy doesn’t want to give fair share to his own community, who he cares sooo much about.

That's not the point he was making and is partially the reason that some players want to sit out.

Players have done everything people in this thread are suggesting and will continue to do so, but they don't feel like it's enough.

Saying stuff like wanting to sit out to ensure that the attention that has been given to an important issue, brought to the forefront isn't interfered with is disrespectful to the game of basketball, is part of the reason some players want to sit out.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29303800/bucks-george-hill-reflects-racism-says-basketball-last-thought-my-mind

With the topics of systematic racism, social injustice and racial inequity in the national spotlight, both Turner and Hill admitted it's tough to think about basketball.

"I've been working every day since this all started with my body, my game and things like that, but as a whole, I can care less about basketball right now," Hill said. "That's like my last worry. That's just the game I'm blessed to play. When the ball goes up in the air, I'm ready to play, I love the competitive side of it, but that's not who I am. So, that's my last thought on my mind is basketball. I can care less what's going on. I think there's bigger issues and bigger things to tackle in life right now than a basketball game, but that's just my personal opinion."


Meh, I think Hill's other comment was more illuminating. You have immigrants who spend a chunk of money to come illegally into this country, and then send back 50% or more of what they earn to their families and communities.

But folks who actually get out of bad socio-economic circumstances in the US... "why should I keep sending money, the government has more than enough."

Guess what, government money does get lavished on worse off socio-economic locations... but, because it's directed by folks in government, it's not particularly effective. Lots gets redirected to connected people who don't necessarily accomplish much good for the community. Sometimes that's direct, a la "contractors" with ties to so and so politician. Sometimes indirect, to include things like inflating the cost of higher education. And it isn't just federal dollars... I've lived in Philly and Chicago... if you pay attention to where the state and local money goes... And even when the when money is more efficiently utilized, the incentives created by the money actually harm the community.

The bottom line is that there are a lot of legal-structural issues (none of which are simple - if you want police officers to act with more restraint in situations that could be dangerous for them, for instance, you actually need to harden them, spending more money on armored vehicles, better body armor, and alternative technologies for incapacitating suspects). But more than that, there are socio-economic issues - which can really only be addressed by the community itself. Absence of fathers. Decline in former community pillars like Churches - which provided a network of support for people in a way that "government" never can. And this isn't just in black communities - you see it in failing poorer white communities as well, along with increases in drug abuse, crime, and generational poverty.

And the one thing that folks who care about those communities can do to help is provide jobs... but how many do? How many set up shoe and clothing lines, manufactured in China... and yet once established, they choose not to bring back production of $500 bags and $100 shoes to the US (where a profit could still be made, just less)? Because "ME" is, ultimately, far more important than "WE" to these hypocrites --- and all the rest is posturing.

Makes sense, though. They care so much about racism that though China is literally imprisoning millions of Muslims just because of their faith, while subjugating Hong Kong to their dictatorship (and if you want to talk about racist cultures...) ... well, we can't talk about that, might impact the money train.

He's not saying he doesn't want to give money or give back to the community.

His point is that NBA players giving money to the community doesn't stop George Floyd from having an officer's knee on his neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds or Ahmaud Arbery from being chased down.

More churches doesn't stop people from calling the police because they're bird watching in a park, sitting on a bench, sitting in a Starbucks, selling water, staying at an Airbnb.

Wearing shirts and all the other stuff in the past, filming commercials with cops playing basketball with kids, doesn't change the inequality that's been in place for 400+ years.
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Re: Growing number of players are expressing concern about resuming season, young stars want league paid insurance 

Post#58 » by sonny » Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:28 pm

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29315648/new-nba-coalition-voicing-concerns-players

Irving and Bradley, two of a number of veteran players who've taken expanded roles in organizing player conference calls in the past week, believe they're providing a voice for those players who fear retribution if they openly voice their concerns, sources tell ESPN.

Irving, Bradley and the coalition of players want to pursue some concerns further with the league, sources said, including: the investment of resources and ideas of all league constituencies -- from the commissioner's office, ownership level, management and players' association -- in social justice reform.

Among concerns surrounding the league's return to play after a three-month shutdown in the midst of the coronavirus pandemic, sources said the coalition is citing: a surge in positive coronavirus cases in Florida, conditions surrounding the restrictive environment in the bubble, insurance and liabilities for players based on possible sicknesses, and injuries in a truncated finish to the season.

In a statement to ESPN shared by leaders of the coalition of players, the group described itself as a movement working to unite NBA players -- and those well beyond the limits of the league's structure.

"We are a group of men and women from different teams and industries that are normally painted as opponents, but have put our egos and differences aside to make sure we stand united and demand honesty during this uncertain time," the coalition said.

"Native indigenous African Caribbean men and women entertaining the world, we will continue to use our voices and platforms for positive change and truth.

"We are truly at an inflection point in history where as a collective community, we can band together -- UNIFY -- and move as one. We need all our people with us and we will stand together in solidarity.

"As an oppressed community we are going on 500-plus years of being systemically targeted, used for our IP [intellectual property]/Talent, and also still being killed by the very people that are supposed to 'protect and serve' us.

"WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH!

"We are combating the issues that matter most: We will not accept the racial injustices that continue to be ignored in our communities. We will not be kept in the dark when it comes to our health and well-being. And we will not ignore the financial motivations/expectations that have prevented us historically from making sound decisions.

"This is not about individual players, athletes or entertainers. This is about our group of strong men and women uniting for change. We have our respective fields, however, we will not just shut up and play to distract us from what this whole system has been about: Use and Abuse.

"We are all fathers, daughters leaders and so much more. So what is our BIG picture? We are in this for UNITY and CHANGE!"

The player calls have included members of the WNBA and entertainment industry, and there has been discussion within the group about representing more than just voices in the sport and public eye -- but those in oppressed black communities throughout the country.

Irving and Bradley were among the organizers of a Monday call that included 40 players and a Friday call that included closer to 100, sources said. The Monday call included 1968 U.S. gold medalist John Carlos sharing his perspective on social justice then and now, sources said.

Irving, an elected vice president in the NBPA, was part of the union's ratification vote on June 5 that approved the league's plan for a 22-team restart in Orlando. He's out of the season with shoulder surgery.

The NBA and NBPA have been in contact with the players to get a better understanding of how they can work together to address issues and try to find common ground on getting as many players as possible to rejoin their teams this month, sources said.
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Re: Growing number of players are expressing concern about resuming season, young stars want league paid insurance 

Post#60 » by Dan Z » Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:44 pm

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:I kind of think this whole bubble playoffs in Orlando is silly. Why not just gear up and focus on the 2021 season and do that correctly? It’s only a few months after August.

One thing I’ll say is the media cycle is very fast and vicious. If something else comes along in a month and captivates America, these players may feel awfully stupid. And maybe that’s the point, is they want continued attention, but they’ll have to fight against the new and shiny object the media has clung to at that time. They could end up looking really silly.


It's because they'll lose $900 million in television money if they end the season.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-would-lose-approximately-900-million-in-television-revenue-without-playoffs-report-says/

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