Re: Growing number of players are expressing concern about resuming season, young stars want league paid insurance
Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:29 am
Sports is our Business
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https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1970262
dougthonus wrote:_txchilibowl_ wrote:They're actually underpaid but whatever....talent almost always is.
You seem to view these guys as a product you're entitled to when in reality they don't owe you anything. Basketball will come back someday...I promise you. And it will be as great as you remember it. But until then we might have to show some patience as these players navigate the greatest social uprising of their lifetimes. And this pesky pandemic too.
Show some compassion dude. They'll probably play.
By what basis do you think the NBA players are underpaid? The players in the NBA make more or less the same percentage of revenue as all four major US sports (slightly better than the NFL which is 48.5%), 49-51% band has probably almost always been at 51% which would put them above the NFL (50/50), and baseball which is 48.5-51.5.
Seems like overall, they are fairly compensated relative to their peers in other sports compared to the money they bring in.
Red8911 wrote:_txchilibowl_ wrote:Red8911 wrote:If players don’t want to play at the end of July over this then they should get fined. I’m sorry this isn’t a good enough reason not to play, these guys get way too overpaid to just decide to take off whenever they feel like it. This is straight up disrespecting the NBA, the fans and the game of basketball. Irving especially is always looking for different ways to not play.
They're actually underpaid but whatever....talent almost always is.
You seem to view these guys as a product you're entitled to when in reality they don't owe you anything. Basketball will come back someday...I promise you. And it will be as great as you remember it. But until then we might have to show some patience as these players navigate the greatest social uprising of their lifetimes. And this pesky pandemic too.
Show some compassion dude. They'll probably play.
Underpaid ? Really lol, so you think they should be making more than the ridiculous amount they currently make?
They don’t owe me anything but they do owe the the teams that pay for them. These guys make millions, have their mansions, their expensive cars/lifestyle, living the life all for just playing basketball. Then you have some of them that don’t want to play for no reason, they don’t appreciate what they were given and how lucky they are.
Anyway this isn’t going to happen and they will play on schedule but still this pisses me off that these players would even mention not wanting to play.
Dez wrote:I'd be skeptical of players that are actually taking advice and guidance from Kyrie Irving.
Please cross these players off any potential signings or trade list.
_txchilibowl_ wrote:Red8911 wrote:_txchilibowl_ wrote:
They're actually underpaid but whatever....talent almost always is.
You seem to view these guys as a product you're entitled to when in reality they don't owe you anything. Basketball will come back someday...I promise you. And it will be as great as you remember it. But until then we might have to show some patience as these players navigate the greatest social uprising of their lifetimes. And this pesky pandemic too.
Show some compassion dude. They'll probably play.
Underpaid ? Really lol, so you think they should be making more than the ridiculous amount they currently make?
They don’t owe me anything but they do owe the the teams that pay for them. These guys make millions, have their mansions, their expensive cars/lifestyle, living the life all for just playing basketball. Then you have some of them that don’t want to play for no reason, they don’t appreciate what they were given and how lucky they are.
Anyway this isn’t going to happen and they will play on schedule but still this pisses me off that these players would even mention not wanting to play.
It's not a hard concept. Money generated vs money earned = underpaid talent.
Those are just financial facts. Just because you and I can't relate to the amount of money they make doesn't make it any less true.
Edit: everything you just said about the players making millions and living in mansions you could multiply by 10x and apply it to the owners. So I don't feel bad for them in the least...
Edit #2: the fact that you would say them sitting out to promote social justice is "no reason" suggests you don't understand the issue and how important it is to them.
Mark K wrote:Dez wrote:I'd be skeptical of players that are actually taking advice and guidance from Kyrie Irving.
Please cross these players off any potential signings or trade list.
This is a ridiculous position considering what Irving is fighting for.
jake_swivel wrote:_txchilibowl_ wrote:Red8911 wrote:Underpaid ? Really lol, so you think they should be making more than the ridiculous amount they currently make?
They don’t owe me anything but they do owe the the teams that pay for them. These guys make millions, have their mansions, their expensive cars/lifestyle, living the life all for just playing basketball. Then you have some of them that don’t want to play for no reason, they don’t appreciate what they were given and how lucky they are.
Anyway this isn’t going to happen and they will play on schedule but still this pisses me off that these players would even mention not wanting to play.
It's not a hard concept. Money generated vs money earned = underpaid talent.
Those are just financial facts. Just because you and I can't relate to the amount of money they make doesn't make it any less true.
Edit: everything you just said about the players making millions and living in mansions you could multiply by 10x and apply it to the owners. So I don't feel bad for them in the least...
Edit #2: the fact that you would say them sitting out to promote social justice is "no reason" suggests you don't understand the issue and how important it is to them.
Owners also risked hundreds of millions and in some cases, billions of dollars. Those are also financial facts. If they aren’t compensated for those risks, the teams don’t exist. The players are paid fine, especially those that aren’t benchwarmers.
https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/9/5/16255168/nba-teams-sold-highest-record-price-all-30
_txchilibowl_ wrote:jake_swivel wrote:_txchilibowl_ wrote:
It's not a hard concept. Money generated vs money earned = underpaid talent.
Those are just financial facts. Just because you and I can't relate to the amount of money they make doesn't make it any less true.
Edit: everything you just said about the players making millions and living in mansions you could multiply by 10x and apply it to the owners. So I don't feel bad for them in the least...
Edit #2: the fact that you would say them sitting out to promote social justice is "no reason" suggests you don't understand the issue and how important it is to them.
Owners also risked hundreds of millions and in some cases, billions of dollars. Those are also financial facts. If they aren’t compensated for those risks, the teams don’t exist. The players are paid fine, especially those that aren’t benchwarmers.
https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/9/5/16255168/nba-teams-sold-highest-record-price-all-30
Except there's an endless line of people wanting to take that "risk" to be involved with professional sports ownership. It's because these teams are cash cows. So in essence, under normal circumstances, there really is no risk. Only profit...
Besides, I never said that there wasn't financial implications for the owners. What I said is that they, by and large, are the real financial winners in the owner/player relationship. That's indisputable.
_txchilibowl_ wrote:Underpaid in the sense of relative to what they generate...which I think you mention in the post after this. And I say that in general terms. For instance, LeBron is massively underpaid whereas Felicio is overpaid. But in the grand scheme of things the players are the driving force behind a multi-billion dollar industry and they get paid peanuts comparatively.
It's not just sports either. The same logic can be applied to most forms of entertainment as well be it actors, artists, musicians, etc.
I'm always confused by the people who side with the billionaires and executives when it comes to finances (not you btw). It seems counterintuitive and unrelatable to me as a working man. Maybe I'm conversing with a bunch of billionaires and just don't know it...
dougthonus wrote:Compared to any other sports industry they aren't underpaid.
dougthonus wrote:_txchilibowl_ wrote:Underpaid in the sense of relative to what they generate...which I think you mention in the post after this. And I say that in general terms. For instance, LeBron is massively underpaid whereas Felicio is overpaid. But in the grand scheme of things the players are the driving force behind a multi-billion dollar industry and they get paid peanuts comparatively.
Compared to any other sports industry they aren't underpaid.
PlayerUp wrote:Players like Zion, Doncic, Lebron are all underpaid. They all deserve more. What they bring in terms of revenue and what they get out of it is minimal.
Players like Felicio are overpaid. Not a single NBA team wants him and nobody comes to games to watch Felicio. Right now our new Bulls FO is wondering how to get rid of him asap.
Good % of the league is overpaid and a smaller % is unpaid. That's just how the NBA works but it should be changed imo.
Markksman_24 wrote:dougthonus wrote:_txchilibowl_ wrote:Underpaid in the sense of relative to what they generate...which I think you mention in the post after this. And I say that in general terms. For instance, LeBron is massively underpaid whereas Felicio is overpaid. But in the grand scheme of things the players are the driving force behind a multi-billion dollar industry and they get paid peanuts comparatively.
Compared to any other sports industry they aren't underpaid.
I think his argument is that all pro athletes in all sports industries are underpaid relative to the value that they generate
sonny wrote:MGB8 wrote:sonny wrote:That's not the point he was making and is partially the reason that some players want to sit out.
Players have done everything people in this thread are suggesting and will continue to do so, but they don't feel like it's enough.
Saying stuff like wanting to sit out to ensure that the attention that has been given to an important issue, brought to the forefront isn't interfered with is disrespectful to the game of basketball, is part of the reason some players want to sit out.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29303800/bucks-george-hill-reflects-racism-says-basketball-last-thought-my-mind
Meh, I think Hill's other comment was more illuminating. You have immigrants who spend a chunk of money to come illegally into this country, and then send back 50% or more of what they earn to their families and communities.
But folks who actually get out of bad socio-economic circumstances in the US... "why should I keep sending money, the government has more than enough."
Guess what, government money does get lavished on worse off socio-economic locations... but, because it's directed by folks in government, it's not particularly effective. Lots gets redirected to connected people who don't necessarily accomplish much good for the community. Sometimes that's direct, a la "contractors" with ties to so and so politician. Sometimes indirect, to include things like inflating the cost of higher education. And it isn't just federal dollars... I've lived in Philly and Chicago... if you pay attention to where the state and local money goes... And even when the when money is more efficiently utilized, the incentives created by the money actually harm the community.
The bottom line is that there are a lot of legal-structural issues (none of which are simple - if you want police officers to act with more restraint in situations that could be dangerous for them, for instance, you actually need to harden them, spending more money on armored vehicles, better body armor, and alternative technologies for incapacitating suspects). But more than that, there are socio-economic issues - which can really only be addressed by the community itself. Absence of fathers. Decline in former community pillars like Churches - which provided a network of support for people in a way that "government" never can. And this isn't just in black communities - you see it in failing poorer white communities as well, along with increases in drug abuse, crime, and generational poverty.
And the one thing that folks who care about those communities can do to help is provide jobs... but how many do? How many set up shoe and clothing lines, manufactured in China... and yet once established, they choose not to bring back production of $500 bags and $100 shoes to the US (where a profit could still be made, just less)? Because "ME" is, ultimately, far more important than "WE" to these hypocrites --- and all the rest is posturing.
Makes sense, though. They care so much about racism that though China is literally imprisoning millions of Muslims just because of their faith, while subjugating Hong Kong to their dictatorship (and if you want to talk about racist cultures...) ... well, we can't talk about that, might impact the money train.
He's not saying he doesn't want to give money or give back to the community.
His point is that NBA players giving money to the community doesn't stop George Floyd from having an officer's knee on his neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds or Ahmaud Arbery from being chased down.
More churches doesn't stop people from calling the police because they're bird watching in a park, sitting on a bench, sitting in a Starbucks, selling water, staying at an Airbnb.
Wearing shirts and all the other stuff in the past, filming commercials with cops playing basketball with kids, doesn't change the inequality that's been in place for 400+ years.
_txchilibowl_ wrote:It's not a hard concept. Money generated vs money earned = underpaid talent.
_txchilibowl_ wrote:Except there's an endless line of people wanting to take that "risk" to be involved with professional sports ownership. It's because these teams are cash cows. So in essence, under normal circumstances, there really is no risk. Only profit...
Besides, I never said that there wasn't financial implications for the owners. What I said is that they, by and large, are the real financial winners in the owner/player relationship. That's indisputable.
MalagaBulls wrote:
kodo wrote:NBA players do not generate that NBA revenue, the NBA and the franchises do. Do we think if Zach Lavine stopped playing last year and we replaced him with another $19M player, the Bulls would have lost any revenue at all?
In a more extreme example, if Lebron took his talents to Europe, I wouldn't all of a sudden be spending thousands on European basketball. That would be interesting from a news standpoint but I'm interested in the NBA and NBA players, Lebron doesn't get a dime of my money playing for Real Madrid.
The fact that the league's revenue is led by New York / LA / Chicago perennially proves that player talent doesn't control the largest chunks of revenue coming. The Lakers were awful during most of the $4B TV deal they signed, and only recently high on talent. But Lebron and AD had nothing to do with signing that $4B, which was done in 2011. Ultimately that's what Lebron's move from Cleveland to LA signified; he learned player talent even on his level doesn't transform CLE to LA or NY.
Kawhi is a great test case for the value of player vs actual income. Last season's Raptors were 4th in overall attendance that season. This year's Raptors sans Kawhi? 3rd in attendance.
Player talent is supreme in winning basketball games, and winning basketball games does not have strong correlation with revenue performance. Hell, last season the Bulls were 2nd in attendance, if we needed any more proof than that.