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Bulls considering Kenny Atkinson for HC

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Re: Bulls considering Kenny Atkinson for HC 

Post#121 » by dougthonus » Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:34 pm

dice wrote:what offensive system did d'antoni invent that paul westhead wasn't doing decades before?

d'antoni's teams do great when he has a HOF point guard


Westphal was certainly one of the early adopters of run and gun, but seven seconds or less put a way higher premium on taking three point shots and was faster relative to the rest of the league compared to Westphal, whom never finished first in pace.

His pace prior to getting Westbrook, was actually among the slowest in the league the previous year where they walked the ball up more with Harden and went super heavy iso on threes.

D'Antoni has had some unique talents, but he put in unique systems in place to maximize those talents, playing in extreme ways that took advantage of what his players could do and went way outside the bounds of what other teams were doing.

He's been a very daring coach IMO and twice gotten really excellent results because of it that were beyond what I would expect with the talent he has had.
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Re: Bulls considering Kenny Atkinson for HC 

Post#122 » by dice » Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:53 pm

dougthonus wrote:
dice wrote:what offensive system did d'antoni invent that paul westhead wasn't doing decades before?

d'antoni's teams do great when he has a HOF point guard


Westphal was certainly one of the early adopters of run and gun, but seven seconds or less put a way higher premium on taking three point shots and was faster relative to the rest of the league compared to Westphal, whom never finished first in pace.

His pace prior to getting Westbrook, was actually among the slowest in the league the previous year where they walked the ball up more with Harden and went super heavy iso on threes.

D'Antoni has had some unique talents, but he put in unique systems in place to maximize those talents, playing in extreme ways that took advantage of what his players could do and went way outside the bounds of what other teams were doing.

He's been a very daring coach IMO and twice gotten really excellent results because of it that were beyond what I would expect with the talent he has had.

i would consider 7 seconds or less to be not only pretty arbitrary but also conducive to forcing up bad shots. i didn't like westhead's lack of emphasis on defense either, but at least he was working on general principles rather than arbitrary limitations

playing at a high pace as far as the stat is concerned requires allowing the opponent to get quality shots early in the shot clock. it's a nonsensical standard to aim for

i'm not sure what use d'antoni has to the rockets at all given harden's game, frankly
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Re: Bulls considering Kenny Atkinson for HC 

Post#123 » by dougthonus » Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:59 pm

dice wrote:i would consider 7 seconds or less to be not only pretty arbitrary but also conducive to forcing up bad shots. i didn't like westhead's lack of emphasis on defense either, but at least he was working on general principles rather than arbitrary limitations

playing at a high pace as far as the stat is concerned requires allowing the opponent to get quality shots early in the shot clock. it's a nonsensical standard to aim for


I disagree. It put the Suns in position to play in such a way that their opponents weren't good at. They simply were more practiced at better at playing in this style. Part of the system was to force opponents to look for those early opportunities so they could get them moving constantly and into a style they weren't comfortable with.

That's a general strategism that I think allows you to beat teams that are better than you. Getting them to play your style instead of the otherway around. Sort of like the phrase, never argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Beyond that seven seconds was just a guiding principle. It wasn't like the Suns actually followed it to the T on every possession. Their principle was to always look for early offense and aggressively push the ball and pace at all times and were one of the first teams to really be extremely three point heavy, focus on "3 and D" players, and look for corner threes. A lot of the principles of D'Antoni's Suns offense are now staples of the NBA used by all teams.

i'm not sure what use d'antoni has to the rockets at all given harden's game, frankly


Not sure any other coach in the league was going to create a system of iso ball around Harden where he launches step back threes. Part of D'Antoni's brilliance is his willingness to depart so far from what other people are doing if his team can do it well. One interview I found with him that I thought was interesting was him saying how he didn't take it far enough with the Suns and should have forced Nash to shoot way more threes than he did.

I'm not saying that D'Antoni is necessarily an all time great coach, but he stands out to me as a guy who has been willing to take big successful risks strategy wise, go against the grain, and find good levels of success in doing so. I actually attribute the Suns/Rockets success more to his willingness to utterly sell out to his players strengths far more so than most coaches would be willing to do so.
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Re: Bulls considering Kenny Atkinson for HC 

Post#124 » by dice » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:51 am

dougthonus wrote:
dice wrote:i would consider 7 seconds or less to be not only pretty arbitrary but also conducive to forcing up bad shots. i didn't like westhead's lack of emphasis on defense either, but at least he was working on general principles rather than arbitrary limitations

playing at a high pace as far as the stat is concerned requires allowing the opponent to get quality shots early in the shot clock. it's a nonsensical standard to aim for


I disagree. It put the Suns in position to play in such a way that their opponents weren't good at. They simply were more practiced at better at playing in this style. Part of the system was to force opponents to look for those early opportunities so they could get them moving constantly and into a style they weren't comfortable with.

except that it didn't really do that. just because the suns played fast offensively there was no obligation for the other team to do the same. and if you're GIVING them good opportunities just to keep the pace going it's self-defeating. there is absolutely no reason a team cannot simultaneously look to push the pace on offense and be stingy defensively. and if you have the types of players that can do that, you should. indeed, forcing turnovers is conducive to a fast pace offensively

Beyond that seven seconds was just a guiding principle. It wasn't like the Suns actually followed it to the T on every possession. Their principle was to always look for early offense and aggressively push the ball and pace at all times and were one of the first teams to really be extremely three point heavy, focus on "3 and D" players, and look for corner threes. A lot of the principles of D'Antoni's Suns offense are now staples of the NBA used by all teams.

pushing the ball offensively and looking for three point shots is perfectly valid. having an artificial shot clock in a player's head is not

i'm not sure what use d'antoni has to the rockets at all given harden's game, frankly


Not sure any other coach in the league was going to create a system of iso ball around Harden where he launches step back threes. Part of D'Antoni's brilliance is his willingness to depart so far from what other people are doing if his team can do it well. One interview I found with him that I thought was interesting was him saying how he didn't take it far enough with the Suns and should have forced Nash to shoot way more threes than he did.

i think that d'antoni accepted that harden plays ISO more than he created it. harden was already trending strongly toward being a historically high usage player before d'antoni got there. his 3 pt attempts were trending up, he was already getting to the line a ton, and his assists/turnovers were trending up

I'm not saying that D'Antoni is necessarily an all time great coach, but he stands out to me as a guy who has been willing to take big successful risks strategy wise, go against the grain, and find good levels of success in doing so. I actually attribute the Suns/Rockets success more to his willingness to utterly sell out to his players strengths far more so than most coaches would be willing to do so.

i wouldn't disagree with that. he's been willing to adapt, which is important when you have players good enough to adapt to. but it's worth noting that he failed in NY and LA when he didn't have top shelf talent and has succeeded when he has had that talent. also, he wasn't able to find a way to keep cp3 happy playing in a harden-centric system. and his up tempo philosophy in phoenix didn't translate as well to playoff basketball
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Re: Bulls considering Kenny Atkinson for HC 

Post#125 » by dougthonus » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:04 am

dice wrote:except that it didn't really do that. just because the suns played fast offensively there was no obligation for the other team to do the same. and if you're GIVING them good opportunities just to keep the pace going it's self-defeating. there is absolutely no reason a team cannot simultaneously look to push the pace on offense and be stingy defensively. and if you have the types of players that can do that, you should. indeed, forcing turnovers is conducive to a fast pace offensively


I think in theory what you are describing is correct that it didn't have to work that way, but in practice, I believe it really did work that way. Suns games often got teams into track meets and other teams suckered into playing a style they weren't as proficient at. I think that was the actual result from my memory watching lots of Suns games.

pushing the ball offensively and looking for three point shots is perfectly valid. having an artificial shot clock in a player's head is not


I think you're taking it way too literally.

i think that d'antoni accepted that harden plays ISO more than he created it. harden was already trending strongly toward being a historically high usage player before d'antoni got there. his 3 pt attempts were trending up, he was already getting to the line a ton, and his assists/turnovers were trending up


I don't know of any other coach that would have gone all in on Harden ball though, but yeah, I agree that if he didn't have Harden he wouldn't have done this.

i wouldn't disagree with that. he's been willing to adapt, which is important when you have players good enough to adapt to. but it's worth noting that he failed in NY and LA when he didn't have top shelf talent and has succeeded when he has had that talent. also, he wasn't able to find a way to keep cp3 happy playing in a harden-centric system. and his up tempo philosophy in phoenix didn't translate as well to playoff basketball


All of those are fair criticisms.
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Re: Bulls considering Kenny Atkinson for HC 

Post#126 » by dice » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:42 am

dougthonus wrote:
pushing the ball offensively and looking for three point shots is perfectly valid. having an artificial shot clock in a player's head is not


I think you're taking it way too literally.

there's no other way to take it unless he's just saying to the players "get a good shot up as quickly as you can and we'll run the numbers after the game to see how well we adhered to the 7 second objective." or, to put it another way, "we averaged 7.4 secs per possession tonight, guys. almost where we wanna be. keep pushing the tempo"

there's no reason to have a specific number unless you're keeping track
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Re: Bulls considering Kenny Atkinson for HC 

Post#127 » by nomorezorro » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:22 am

it's been a while since i read the book but wasn't the ssol concept based specifically on analytics that said shots in the first seven seconds of the shot clock were typically the best available? beyond the general "play fast" edict i feel like it was also a "push the ball and try to find a good look asap because you're probably not going to find a better one" thing

d'antoni's phoenix offenses weren't just based on pace and chucking threes either. the emphasis they placed on pnr as the engine of their set offense pretty much defined the style of the league for the better part of the next decade
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Re: Bulls considering Kenny Atkinson for HC 

Post#128 » by dice » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:14 am

nomorezorro wrote:it's been a while since i read the book but wasn't the ssol concept based specifically on analytics that said shots in the first seven seconds of the shot clock were typically the best available? beyond the general "play fast" edict i feel like it was also a "push the ball and try to find a good look asap because you're probably not going to find a better one" thing

d'antoni's phoenix offenses weren't just based on pace and chucking threes either. the emphasis they placed on pnr as the engine of their set offense pretty much defined the style of the league for the better part of the next decade

that's interesting. i wonder if they are going by percentages for shots taken in the first 7 seconds or just the quality of the shot selection. for example, if i rush up the floor to heave up an open 3 that's not necessarily a high percentage shot, but it qualifies as an open 3, for which percentages are generally higher. thus in theory it's a good shot but in practice perhaps it isn't
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Re: Bulls considering Kenny Atkinson for HC 

Post#129 » by dougthonus » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:50 pm

dice wrote:there's no other way to take it unless he's just saying to the players "get a good shot up as quickly as you can and we'll run the numbers after the game to see how well we adhered to the 7 second objective." or, to put it another way, "we averaged 7.4 secs per possession tonight, guys. almost where we wanna be. keep pushing the tempo"

there's no reason to have a specific number unless you're keeping track


Lots of things are put in place to make concepts psychologically stick and be practical. 7 seconds or less was a theme that was like that. So I don't think there was an artificial shot clock in people's heads, nor do I think they were counting up the average amount of times they got their shots off.

I think it was more of a marketing campaign that helped people conceptualize what they wanted to happen more easily and approachably. I don't think anyone was ever going "Oh ****, 6 seconds, launch a shot!", but more of a way to drill into people's heads to always run, always push the pace, and always look for early offense.
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Re: Bulls considering Kenny Atkinson for HC 

Post#130 » by dougthonus » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:12 pm

dice wrote:that's interesting. i wonder if they are going by percentages for shots taken in the first 7 seconds or just the quality of the shot selection. for example, if i rush up the floor to heave up an open 3 that's not necessarily a high percentage shot, but it qualifies as an open 3, for which percentages are generally higher. thus in theory it's a good shot but in practice perhaps it isn't


The early shots are better typically because the defense is in transition, moving, and often not on the right matchups yet. You get more mismatches, 3 on 2s etc, by attacking early offense all the time. I don't think the Suns heaved up bad 3s from half court just to get a good shot or had bad shooters heave up 3s just to get a shot up. They were #1 or #2 in offensive efficiency his entire run, so clearly they weren't taking bad shots.

Interestingly enough, when D'Antoni left, the Suns stayed #1 in offensive efficiency for a couple of years, what slipped was their defense which went from middle of the pack to bottom of the pack.
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Re: Bulls considering Kenny Atkinson for HC 

Post#131 » by dice » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:35 pm

dougthonus wrote:
dice wrote:that's interesting. i wonder if they are going by percentages for shots taken in the first 7 seconds or just the quality of the shot selection. for example, if i rush up the floor to heave up an open 3 that's not necessarily a high percentage shot, but it qualifies as an open 3, for which percentages are generally higher. thus in theory it's a good shot but in practice perhaps it isn't


The early shots are better typically because the defense is in transition, moving, and often not on the right matchups yet. You get more mismatches, 3 on 2s etc, by attacking early offense all the time. I don't think the Suns heaved up bad 3s from half court just to get a good shot or had bad shooters heave up 3s just to get a shot up. They were #1 or #2 in offensive efficiency his entire run, so clearly they weren't taking bad shots.

that's not what i'm talking about. i'm talking about shots that look good on the shot chart (open 3) that might not actually be a good shot because, for example, it's a pull-up off a full sprint

another thing i've heard in recent years is that players actually shoot a higher percentage from 3 feet beyond the arc or whatever than they do right at the 3 pt line. so the mavs are having guys practice shooting 3 feet beyond the arc. but i suspect that the reason for that statistical oddity is that the guys bringing up the average that far beyond the line are ones that are actually looking for them: those with elite range (curry, lillard, trae, etc). having ordinary perimeter shooters practice those shots doesn't seem to make much sense
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Re: Bulls considering Kenny Atkinson for HC 

Post#132 » by nomorezorro » Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:09 am

i think it's true that elite sharpshooters are bringing up the shooting percentage from deep behind the three point line, but there's probably also a legitimate chance that the marginal difference between making a shot from 24 vs. 27 feet is less significant than making an open vs. contested shot from each distance, and it's easier to get the open look from further away. and i think even as defenses wise up to that as a strategy, playing tight defense very far from the basket is hard & opens up other offensive opportunities

i actually think that actually kind of connects to a reason ssol worked for the suns — you might think "oh, shots early in the shot clock are only super efficient because people only shoot early if they've got a great chance of making a bucket. but if a team increases the volume of early-shot-clock shots, and defenses know that's what you're trying to do on offense, the efficiency will go way down."

but one, it took a while for teams to figure out how to play defense against that style. and two, even if you know what you should be doing, playing defense against a skilled fast-paced transition offense is inherently hard and taxing. there's more to it than just "shoot ball early = good"
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Re: Bulls considering Kenny Atkinson for HC 

Post#133 » by MrFortune3 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:49 am

dice wrote:
MrFortune3 wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
The Rockets were a game away from the finals, where they would have been favored, while competing against one of the all time great dynasties and lost due to an injury to one of their 2 best players.

If you don't think they were a title caliber team, then I'm not sure what to tell you, it seems pretty obvious to me that they were a few unlucky events away from winning a title. Chris Paul stays healthy, they easily could have won. If there wasn't one of the two greatest teams ever assembled in front of them then they easily could have won.

They obviously didn't win, but pretty weird to me that you don't think they could have. Do you also think there is no circumstance where the late 90s Jazz could have won a title? Like if they didn't have to go through the other greatest team ever assembled that they might have been able to pull it off? Do you think Jerry Sloan is overrated as well and would you also rank him as a worse coach than Atkinson?


You carefully leave out that the Warriors had Iggy missing in that same series for the final 4 games which is what allowed that Rockets team to take the Warriors to a game from the finals to begin with. Because the Warriors were up 2-1 in the series before Iggy missed games 4-7. Paul only missed the final 2.

I didn't say they weren't title caliber, I said they wouldn't have won.

any team that could beat the warriors that year could have beaten the cavs

With that being said, that's also preference. Kind of like Harden. He's one of the most lethal offensive players in the NBA and in NBA history and I cannot stand watching him play and I hate his game. But plenty of players and fans love watching him work.

harden is interesting to watch do his thing...until he blatantly travels or flops or takes a step back shot...and all of that is pretty frequent, unfortunately


I don't see anyway the Rockets were going to take LeBron James out of his comfort zone. The Warriors had 3 absolute studs + a former finals MVP in Iggy and a game Draymond when they sweep the Cavs that year.

Harden and Paul alone wasn't going to get that team past LeBron and co. I know Gordon is good but again, no one on the Rockets was checking LeBron.
That team was built exclusively to stop the Warriors and it took Iggy missing 4 games and they still didn't beat them.

Harden...ugh. That's just not basketball.
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Re: Bulls considering Kenny Atkinson for HC 

Post#134 » by dice » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:44 am

MrFortune3 wrote:
dice wrote:
MrFortune3 wrote:
You carefully leave out that the Warriors had Iggy missing in that same series for the final 4 games which is what allowed that Rockets team to take the Warriors to a game from the finals to begin with. Because the Warriors were up 2-1 in the series before Iggy missed games 4-7. Paul only missed the final 2.

I didn't say they weren't title caliber, I said they wouldn't have won.

any team that could beat the warriors that year could have beaten the cavs

With that being said, that's also preference. Kind of like Harden. He's one of the most lethal offensive players in the NBA and in NBA history and I cannot stand watching him play and I hate his game. But plenty of players and fans love watching him work.

harden is interesting to watch do his thing...until he blatantly travels or flops or takes a step back shot...and all of that is pretty frequent, unfortunately


I don't see anyway the Rockets were going to take LeBron James out of his comfort zone. The Warriors had 3 absolute studs + a former finals MVP in Iggy and a game Draymond when they sweep the Cavs that year.

Harden and Paul alone wasn't going to get that team past LeBron and co. I know Gordon is good but again, no one on the Rockets was checking LeBron.
That team was built exclusively to stop the Warriors and it took Iggy missing 4 games and they still didn't beat them.

Harden...ugh. That's just not basketball.

the rockets won 65 games that year. the cavs won 50. and got swept by the warriors. and got taken to 7 games by the celtics. and got taken to 7 games by the pacers. did the celtics and pacers have a "lebron stopper"? not even close

and you act like the warriors held lebron in check. they didn't. he demolished them. 34/8.5/10 on high efficiency. they still swept the series. it wasn't the 31 year old iggy that did an admirable job against lebron in 2015. it was the 34 year old iggy

the rockets would have been significant, but not overwhelming, favorites against the cavs in the finals. they beat them both times in the regular season, including a blowout in cleveland. lebron was terrible in that game
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Re: Bulls considering Kenny Atkinson for HC 

Post#135 » by dougthonus » Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:33 am

dice wrote:that's not what i'm talking about. i'm talking about shots that look good on the shot chart (open 3) that might not actually be a good shot because, for example, it's a pull-up off a full sprint


Is that a bad shot? Maybe for an NBA player as long as he stops his momentum it isn't a bad shot or the disruption of going from a sprint into a shot lowers the percentage enough to make it less of a good shot than a set open three but still much better than a contested three or contested 2. Either way, given the Suns offensive efficiency, they clearly weren't taking bad shots, so whether theoretically there could be bad shots in there doesn't seem to matter.

another thing i've heard in recent years is that players actually shoot a higher percentage from 3 feet beyond the arc or whatever than they do right at the 3 pt line. so the mavs are having guys practice shooting 3 feet beyond the arc. but i suspect that the reason for that statistical oddity is that the guys bringing up the average that far beyond the line are ones that are actually looking for them: those with elite range (curry, lillard, trae, etc). having ordinary perimeter shooters practice those shots doesn't seem to make much sense


I agree that there's a good chance that average shooters aren't shooting from there, but one thing that might be interesting as a counter point is that maybe an ordinary shooter (with practice) is still much better when wide open from 5 feet behind the line than he is contested while at the line and if you line up guys 5 feet behind the line you generate more open shots and put more pressure on the defense to pull them away from the rim even further.
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Re: Bulls considering Kenny Atkinson for HC 

Post#136 » by dougthonus » Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:58 am

MrFortune3 wrote:I don't see anyway the Rockets were going to take LeBron James out of his comfort zone. The Warriors had 3 absolute studs + a former finals MVP in Iggy and a game Draymond when they sweep the Cavs that year.

Harden and Paul alone wasn't going to get that team past LeBron and co. I know Gordon is good but again, no one on the Rockets was checking LeBron.
That team was built exclusively to stop the Warriors and it took Iggy missing 4 games and they still didn't beat them.

Harden...ugh. That's just not basketball.


Think the Rockets matched up better defensively with the Cavs than the Warriors, so I'm not sure that would have been a big problem. They had Ariza to check LeBron, and while I'm not saying anyone was stopping LeBron, Ariza was one of the best wing defenders in the league.

Looking at that season, the Rockets would have been pretty massive favorites in those finals IMO.
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Re: Bulls considering Kenny Atkinson for HC 

Post#137 » by MrFortune3 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:04 pm

dougthonus wrote:
MrFortune3 wrote:I don't see anyway the Rockets were going to take LeBron James out of his comfort zone. The Warriors had 3 absolute studs + a former finals MVP in Iggy and a game Draymond when they sweep the Cavs that year.

Harden and Paul alone wasn't going to get that team past LeBron and co. I know Gordon is good but again, no one on the Rockets was checking LeBron.
That team was built exclusively to stop the Warriors and it took Iggy missing 4 games and they still didn't beat them.

Harden...ugh. That's just not basketball.


Think the Rockets matched up better defensively with the Cavs than the Warriors, so I'm not sure that would have been a big problem. They had Ariza to check LeBron, and while I'm not saying anyone was stopping LeBron, Ariza was one of the best wing defenders in the league.

Looking at that season, the Rockets would have been pretty massive favorites in those finals IMO.


Ariza was a very good defender during his prime and in that season, but it would take a massive team defensive effort to stop the Cavs and LeBron in the finals.
I dont think the Rockets could have done it and they were definitely not a better defensive match up.
They would have keyed in on Harden all game and attacked him to exploit the mismatches. Not that the Rockets wouldn’t take advantage of Love as well.
Just don’t see that Rockets team overcoming LeBron.
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Re: Bulls considering Kenny Atkinson for HC 

Post#138 » by MrFortune3 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:07 pm

dice wrote:
MrFortune3 wrote:
dice wrote:any team that could beat the warriors that year could have beaten the cavs


harden is interesting to watch do his thing...until he blatantly travels or flops or takes a step back shot...and all of that is pretty frequent, unfortunately


I don't see anyway the Rockets were going to take LeBron James out of his comfort zone. The Warriors had 3 absolute studs + a former finals MVP in Iggy and a game Draymond when they sweep the Cavs that year.

Harden and Paul alone wasn't going to get that team past LeBron and co. I know Gordon is good but again, no one on the Rockets was checking LeBron.
That team was built exclusively to stop the Warriors and it took Iggy missing 4 games and they still didn't beat them.

Harden...ugh. That's just not basketball.

the rockets won 65 games that year. the cavs won 50. and got swept by the warriors. and got taken to 7 games by the celtics. and got taken to 7 games by the pacers. did the celtics and pacers have a "lebron stopper"? not even close

and you act like the warriors held lebron in check. they didn't. he demolished them. 34/8.5/10 on high efficiency. they still swept the series. it wasn't the 31 year old iggy that did an admirable job against lebron in 2015. it was the 34 year old iggy

the rockets would have been significant, but not overwhelming, favorites against the cavs in the finals. they beat them both times in the regular season, including a blowout in cleveland. lebron was terrible in that game


You misconstrued what I said. I clearly said it took the Warriors 3 studs and Iggy plus Draymond to sweep the Cavs. That was not me saying the Warriors contained LeBron, that was me saying that the Rockets didn’t have the fire power to stop LeBron when the Warriors even in a deep had to utilize a massive dynasty to do so.
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Re: Bulls considering Kenny Atkinson for HC 

Post#139 » by nitetrain8603 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:38 pm

MrFortune3 wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
MrFortune3 wrote:Those Suns teams he had were never winning a title, too many defensive flaws to hold up in a 7 games finals series and it's the same with the Rockets teams even the one where CP3 got hurt.


The Rockets were a game away from the finals, where they would have been favored, while competing against one of the all time great dynasties and lost due to an injury to one of their 2 best players.

If you don't think they were a title caliber team, then I'm not sure what to tell you, it seems pretty obvious to me that they were a few unlucky events away from winning a title. Chris Paul stays healthy, they easily could have won. If there wasn't one of the two greatest teams ever assembled in front of them then they easily could have won.

They obviously didn't win, but pretty weird to me that you don't think they could have. Do you also think there is no circumstance where the late 90s Jazz could have won a title? Like if they didn't have to go through the other greatest team ever assembled that they might have been able to pull it off? Do you think Jerry Sloan is overrated as well and would you also rank him as a worse coach than Atkinson?


You carefully leave out that the Warriors had Iggy missing in that same series for the final 4 games which is what allowed that Rockets team to take the Warriors to a game from the finals to begin with. Because the Warriors were up 2-1 in the series before Iggy missed games 4-7. Paul only missed the final 2.

I didn't say they weren't title caliber, I said they wouldn't have won. Let's say they get to the finals, who on that Rockets team is checking LeBron James in the finals? He probably puts on a one man clinic. They would have been favored but the match up would have been badly in their favor.

I think Sloan is one of the best coaches in NBA history and his reputation around the league reflects that.
I think D'Antoni is a great offensive innovator but I don't think he's a great coach by any stretch. He has a offensive system that makes fans excited but in the end he never wins anything.

With that being said, that's also preference. Kind of like Harden. He's one of the most lethal offensive players in the NBA and in NBA history and I cannot stand watching him play and I hate his game. But plenty of players and fans love watching him work.


This is interesting. I mean, the Suns team was screwed by suspensions in that series against the Spurs where they had a legit shot. I also weigh Chris Paul's contributions much heavier than Andre Iguodala. But more importantly, the Rockets loss that series when they missed something ridiculous like 25 3s in Game 7. That game was wrapped in the bag for them and they stupidly kept taking 3s. I recently watched a video of every 3 they took that game and only about 3 of them were open. The rest were beyond the 3 point line, heavily contested or both. Heck, the biggest play I saw there was Harden, with no space, taking a step back 3 about 4 feet beyond the 3point line - with 12 seconds left on the shotclock. Maybe that leads credence to D'Antoni not being a good coach though. At the same time, they did that without CP3 who is a sure fire 1st ballot HoF.

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Re: Bulls considering Kenny Atkinson for HC 

Post#140 » by MrFortune3 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:51 pm

nitetrain8603 wrote:
MrFortune3 wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
The Rockets were a game away from the finals, where they would have been favored, while competing against one of the all time great dynasties and lost due to an injury to one of their 2 best players.

If you don't think they were a title caliber team, then I'm not sure what to tell you, it seems pretty obvious to me that they were a few unlucky events away from winning a title. Chris Paul stays healthy, they easily could have won. If there wasn't one of the two greatest teams ever assembled in front of them then they easily could have won.

They obviously didn't win, but pretty weird to me that you don't think they could have. Do you also think there is no circumstance where the late 90s Jazz could have won a title? Like if they didn't have to go through the other greatest team ever assembled that they might have been able to pull it off? Do you think Jerry Sloan is overrated as well and would you also rank him as a worse coach than Atkinson?


You carefully leave out that the Warriors had Iggy missing in that same series for the final 4 games which is what allowed that Rockets team to take the Warriors to a game from the finals to begin with. Because the Warriors were up 2-1 in the series before Iggy missed games 4-7. Paul only missed the final 2.

I didn't say they weren't title caliber, I said they wouldn't have won. Let's say they get to the finals, who on that Rockets team is checking LeBron James in the finals? He probably puts on a one man clinic. They would have been favored but the match up would have been badly in their favor.

I think Sloan is one of the best coaches in NBA history and his reputation around the league reflects that.
I think D'Antoni is a great offensive innovator but I don't think he's a great coach by any stretch. He has a offensive system that makes fans excited but in the end he never wins anything.

With that being said, that's also preference. Kind of like Harden. He's one of the most lethal offensive players in the NBA and in NBA history and I cannot stand watching him play and I hate his game. But plenty of players and fans love watching him work.


This is interesting. I mean, the Suns team was screwed by suspensions in that series against the Spurs where they had a legit shot. I also weigh Chris Paul's contributions much heavier than Andre Iguodala. But more importantly, the Rockets loss that series when they missed something ridiculous like 25 3s in Game 7. That game was wrapped in the bag for them and they stupidly kept taking 3s. I recently watched a video of every 3 they took that game and only about 3 of them were open. The rest were beyond the 3 point line, heavily contested or both. Heck, the biggest play I saw there was Harden, with no space, taking a step back 3 about 4 feet beyond the 3point line - with 12 seconds left on the shotclock. Maybe that leads credence to D'Antoni not being a good coach though. At the same time, they did that without CP3 who is a sure fire 1st ballot HoF.

:banghead:


The Rockets are obsessed with the Warriors, they are also obsessed with beating the Warriors at their own game.
Morey has openly stated on many occasions that he set up his team to defeat the Warriors.

I used to love watching those Suns teams play because it was such a contrast to the styles played back then. I remember that series and thinking how I found their play interesting but never felt they would win a title. They gave the Spurs fits during that series and likely should have won. Winning the NBA title is a whole nother story though.

D'Antoni having a team capable of winning a title is one of those "I have to see it to believe it" type of things for me.
His teams always seem to me to be similar to how the Hawks led by Budenholzer were a few years ago, top seed, great regular season record, gets the most out of his talent and no legit shot to win the title.

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