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Is Gafford better than Wendell?

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Who do you have, Gafford or Wendell?

Wendell Carter Jr
52
73%
Daniel Gafford
19
27%
 
Total votes: 71

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Re: Is Gafford better than Wendell? 

Post#21 » by TeamMan » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:56 pm

Did not vote.

In several previous threads I've said that WCJ should be tried at PF.

That includes being tried at PF together with Gafford.

However, I don't feel that the goal of the OP was to talk about basketball talent, but rather the position of center.

To make it clear, WCJ is the better PF.

Gafford is the better Center.

That means that we could keep both and then Lauri should be traded.
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Re: Is Gafford better than Wendell? 

Post#22 » by TheSuzerain » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:00 pm

ATRAIN53 wrote:
Gafford, Cody White, Dunn, and Zach - those are my untouchables and a core I'd like to see blossom.

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Re: Is Gafford better than Wendell? 

Post#23 » by Lunartic » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:11 pm

WCJ is overrated. What does he do at an above-average level? He's got potential to be a cerebral smart defender I suppose.
He's slow, he isn't a shotblocker, he isn't a playmaker, he can't shoot, average freethrow shooter, no post game, isn't a great rebounder, isn't very aggressive like Taj. I would much much rather have a young Taj Gibson.

I'm interested in what those that think highly of him see in him.
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Re: Is Gafford better than Wendell? 

Post#24 » by MrSparkle » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:18 pm

To make it really simple:

Gafford's got hops. Wendell doesn't. He's also got an inch or so on Wendell. He's got quicker feet and bounce. For a defensive center in today's NBA, that matters a lot, because mobility and length is prized over weight and muscle.

IMO if Wendell cut his weight down by a whopping 20 lb., cut down to 240 or so, and he worked incredibly hard on his jump-shot, I could see him being a very good NBA player. Like, much better than Lauri and Gafford.

But those are two very big IFs. If Sweetney had cut down his weight and worked on his jumpshot, he'd also be a very good player. If Felicio did the same, he'd be very good.

So going by what we see- Gafford is cheaper and a more intriguing center. But, he is without a doubt a worst basketball player at this point. Yet, despite that, he is almost more effective, especially if he can learn a few basic defensive fundamentals and stay out of foul trouble (which frankly Wendell has got into regularly anyway).
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Re: Is Gafford better than Wendell? 

Post#25 » by Ccwatercraft » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:18 pm

Based on their current contracts I can't pick between either one, I say keep both. They each bring something to the table.

I see no reason to get rid of either player when their combined salary is about 7 million.

Trade Lauri or young if anything, but I've stated before I'd rather keep L.M on the last year of his contract and see if he steps up his game, he has yet to show me that he really wants that next contract.
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Re: Is Gafford better than Wendell? 

Post#26 » by Showtime23 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:22 pm

coldfish wrote:IMO, everyone on the current team should be on the trading block. AK should shop all of them. I wouldn't dump anyone for peanuts but if you can get reasonable value, trade these guys. The team has serious chemistry issues. Wendell has actually been a part of the problem.

That said, I don't see Gafford as someone you want as a long term starter.


Got to factor in contract length and salaries which most arent doing when evaluating these players.
Wendell is injury prone and has no outside shooting and with 2 yrs gone, that 20mil hold cap hit seems horrendous if true I wouldnt even try to touch it. Meanwhile Gafford is coming off an impressive rookie season and is widely regarded as the biggest steal in the 2nd round. This guy is making peanuts I am not trading him unless for a lottery pick.
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Re: Is Gafford better than Wendell? 

Post#27 » by Showtime23 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:24 pm

TeamMan wrote:Did not vote.

In several previous threads I've said that WCJ should be tried at PF.

That includes being tried at PF together with Gafford.

However, I don't feel that the goal of the OP was to talk about basketball talent, but rather the position of center.

To make it clear, WCJ is the better PF.

Gafford is the better Center.

That means that we could keep both and then Lauri should be traded.


Nope. This isnt a Lauri vs WCJ discussion thread, its choosing between WCJ and Gafford who play awfully similar.
I will take WCJ over Gafford now from a talent perspective but the lack of improvement he made this yr is alarming Gafford can overtake him anyday of the yr.
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Re: Is Gafford better than Wendell? 

Post#28 » by Markksman_24 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:30 pm

TeamMan wrote:Did not vote.

In several previous threads I've said that WCJ should be tried at PF.

That includes being tried at PF together with Gafford.

However, I don't feel that the goal of the OP was to talk about basketball talent, but rather the position of center.

To make it clear, WCJ is the better PF.

Gafford is the better Center.

That means that we could keep both and then Lauri should be traded.

Question for those (and you) who want to see Wendell at PF:

Why? I don't think he has a very good shot, and while it can obviously improve, isn't that kind of a necessity to be a modern 4?
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Re: Is Gafford better than Wendell? 

Post#29 » by MGB8 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:31 pm

WCJ is the much better talent. But, because of how the NBA has evolved, it may not make a big difference (unless Carter develops his shot much more).

Gafford is clearly more athletic, both faster (straight line and laterally) as well as bouncier. He's half an inch taller with an extra inch in standing reach (9'2 vs. Carter's 9'1), though Carter, being broader, has an extra 2.25 inches in wingspan. Based on the number of blocked shots when he is on the floor, as opposed to Carter, he seems to have a significantly rim protector (BLK% with Gafford on the floor this year was 8.7%, vs. 2.7% for Carter this year, or 4.5% last year.... while personnel groupings impact things, that's a big difference). Gafford actually had a positive DPM this year, while WCJ had a mildly negative (effectively net neutral) one, and a small positive one last season (about 1/3rd the positive of Gafford's - basically still net neutral).

At the same time, Gafford's a barely passable FT shooter, going back to college (as opposed to Carter, who is solid). He doesn't rebound as well as Carter. He doesn't have the post game. His best hope is to get better at free throws and become a slightly shorter version of Tyson Chandler.

Carter, on the other hand, is fundamentally sound and capable of being a high level, if not quite all-star level, two way player. He's in no way a corner stone type player, though. He doesn't provide Myles Turner level rim protection or Bam Abedayo level offensive upside, much less a Gobert or KAT...
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Re: Is Gafford better than Wendell? 

Post#30 » by Showtime23 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:31 pm

MrSparkle wrote:To make it really simple:

Gafford's got hops. Wendell doesn't. He's also got an inch or so on Wendell. He's got quicker feet and bounce. For a defensive center in today's NBA, that matters a lot, because mobility and length is prized over weight and muscle.

IMO if Wendell cut his weight down by a whopping 20 lb., cut down to 240 or so, and he worked incredibly hard on his jump-shot, I could see him being a very good NBA player. Like, much better than Lauri and Gafford.

But those are two very big IFs. If Sweetney had cut down his weight and worked on his jumpshot, he'd also be a very good player. If Felicio did the same, he'd be very good.

So going by what we see- Gafford is cheaper and a more intriguing center. But, he is without a doubt a worst basketball player at this point. Yet, despite that, he is almost more effective, especially if he can learn a few basic defensive fundamentals and stay out of foul trouble (which frankly Wendell has got into regularly anyway).


I think talent and archetypes are similar. But imo, the attitude problem makes me want to get rid of Wendell.
This guy intentionally bulked up to 280 pounds to counter Embiid, Drummond and still complains getting banged up.
Then why did you sacrifice your quickness and got rid of your only strength which was mobility?

Despite being underweight, Gafford is just super athletic enough to counter these heavy weight centers.
So far, he has been in constant foul trouble which was I became a little down on him after hyping him up, but I feel like he has too much confidence and blue collar worth ethic to not succeed. Gafford doesnt have to gain significant weight to be effective unlike Wendell who is getting so frustrated its affecting his entire team. That terrible body language complaining.
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Re: Is Gafford better than Wendell? 

Post#31 » by MrSparkle » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:54 pm

Showtime23 wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:To make it really simple:

Gafford's got hops. Wendell doesn't. He's also got an inch or so on Wendell. He's got quicker feet and bounce. For a defensive center in today's NBA, that matters a lot, because mobility and length is prized over weight and muscle.

IMO if Wendell cut his weight down by a whopping 20 lb., cut down to 240 or so, and he worked incredibly hard on his jump-shot, I could see him being a very good NBA player. Like, much better than Lauri and Gafford.

But those are two very big IFs. If Sweetney had cut down his weight and worked on his jumpshot, he'd also be a very good player. If Felicio did the same, he'd be very good.

So going by what we see- Gafford is cheaper and a more intriguing center. But, he is without a doubt a worst basketball player at this point. Yet, despite that, he is almost more effective, especially if he can learn a few basic defensive fundamentals and stay out of foul trouble (which frankly Wendell has got into regularly anyway).


I think talent and archetypes are similar. But imo, the attitude problem makes me want to get rid of Wendell.
This guy intentionally bulked up to 280 pounds to counter Embiid, Drummond and still complains getting banged up.
Then why did you sacrifice your quickness and got rid of your only strength which was mobility?

Despite being underweight, Gafford is just super athletic enough to counter these heavy weight centers.
So far, he has been in constant foul trouble which was I became a little down on him after hyping him up, but I feel like he has too much confidence and blue collar worth ethic to not succeed. Gafford doesnt have to gain significant weight to be effective unlike Wendell who is getting so frustrated its affecting his entire team. That terrible body language complaining.


Well, Wendell’s journey since the thumb surgery has been nothing but bumpy after a promising start. So I get that he’s frustrated. He also did rather quickly establish a poor relationship with refs; I do think they were quick to whistle him, but his complaining didn’t help.

He’s basically Baby Antonio Davis. IMO he needs a mentor. I supported the idea of starting Wendell, but maybe it was a mistake benching RoLo at the top of the season. Seemed to make RoLo tune out until he got the starting position back he rightfully deserved due to Wendell’s injury.

All in all, I’m just making sense of the guy. He’s certainly not junk. He also wasn’t top-10 pick material... Still, atleast we didn’t get #1-2 and spend it on Ayton or Bagley.
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Re: Is Gafford better than Wendell? 

Post#32 » by JohnnyTapwater » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:05 pm

2 different archetypes.

Gafford is a Deandre Jordan archetype
WCJ is a Al Horford archetype

The rim running archetype that Gafford is, is more fun to watch for me. How conducive is it to winning? I guess that depends on what we'd put around him.
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Re: Is Gafford better than Wendell? 

Post#33 » by MikeDC » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:44 pm

Let me preface this by saying I like Gafford as a prospect. But anyone who's penciling him in to a major role is out of their mind.

Out of EVERY player on the 15 man roster, Gafford had the lowest defensive rebound rate.


That almost defies belief. Less than guys like Arci and Sato. Part of it is due to the foolish system the Bulls were playing, but he gets pushed around really easily. Anyone comparing him to DeAndre Jordan is, frankly, just making stuff up.
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Re: Is Gafford better than Wendell? 

Post#34 » by CjayC » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:05 pm

Nah he doesn't have Wendel''s talent. I do like his attitude better though. Wendell irked the hell outta me with the wanting to play the 4 comment. Like bruh, if Lauri ain't ideal, you for damn sure ain't it.
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Re: Is Gafford better than Wendell? 

Post#35 » by kodo » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:25 pm

Gafford has low defensive rebounding because he's hyper aggressive at contesting shots which automatically leaves you out of defensive rebounding position. Bulls bigs if they are playing the defense Boylen wants them to, are out on the perimeter contesting.

Gafford's per 36 shotblocking: 3.3 bpg
comparables:
Whiteside: 3.5 bpg
Anthony Davis: 2.6 bpg
Clint Capela: 2.0 bpg
Steven Adams: 1.5 bpg
Rudy Gobert: 2.1 bpg
Drummond: 1.8 bpg
Adebayo: 1.4 bpg
Embiid: 1.6 bpg

A different coach with a different defense will make some big shifts in everyone's stats.

He's a pure rim runner & shotblocker, and has potential to be elite at both. He goes vertical and extends horizontally to finish badly botched lob passes from Sato/Dunn and finishes with a defender in the way. He's the only player on the Bulls even remotely close to scoring on close to 70% TS efficiency.

Wendell has 2 way "potential", but the road is long. Wendell has to learn how to post up, learn how to shoot from close range, learn to shoot from long range, learn how to dribble. The only thing he has going for him is that he knows when to pass and a not terrible FT%.

I think Wendell will have a fine career as an undersized Center who doesn't mix it up inside and instead acts like a stretch 4 on offense many years from now, kinda like current Al Horford. But people seem to gloss over the fact that Al Horford took until he was 29 before he averaged more than 0.1 3 pointers per game. When Wendell becomes "Horford" he'll likely be on his 3rd or 4th team.

The one thing I'll say that might cause faster development in Wendell is that he's been injured almost constantly, stagnating his NBA start. But I'm not sure if that's really a plus in for WCJ either. This goes for Lauri as well, if our 2 high draft bigs can actually stay healthy for multiple seasons they'll develop but constant injuries cause regression in development.
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Re: Is Gafford better than Wendell? 

Post#36 » by Ben Wilson25 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:49 pm

I admit I have a soft spot for WCJ because he was one of the only guys on the team the last 2 years that I saw playing smart team basketball. The eye test was mixed but the numbers consistently said that as even as a young raw player he was our best defender and making a positive impact every time he was on the floor. The injuries obviously didn’t help but I also firmly believe Boylen’s schemes greatly minimized his impact. We’ll see with a different coach next year if he’s still here. I think it’s 50/50 at this point that he pans out to an above average starter because he’s lost a lot of development time and he needs to do a lot of work on his body. The desire to be a 4 is admittedly also a red flag to me because it denotes a lack of self-awareness. On the other hand he’s a smart kid who sees the way the league is going and knows you have a short window as a player to define yourself. The way you set yourself up for that second contract and on can mean 100+ million in career earnings.

I’m not comparing them as players but to me he has the same dynamic as Luka and Draymond with a less than ideal physical profile but a natural feel for the game that few guys have. We may not have time to wait on it but he feels to me like a guy who at 25 will be a turbo boost to a good team just like Draymond was for the Warriors. Someone brought up young Taj, we have to remember that rookie Taj was 2 years older than WCJ is right now. He’s played basically one NBA season (87 games).
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Re: Is Gafford better than Wendell? 

Post#37 » by bullslas » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:51 pm

WCJ is one of the most overrated players on this board. What has he actually done for some to say we can't trade him, or he should play PF. If you can trade him now, you do so.
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Re: Is Gafford better than Wendell? 

Post#38 » by PaKii94 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:46 pm

Ben Wilson25 wrote:I admit I have a soft spot for WCJ because he was one of the only guys on the team the last 2 years that I saw playing smart team basketball. The eye test was mixed but the numbers consistently said that as even as a young raw player he was our best defender and making a positive impact every time he was on the floor. The injuries obviously didn’t help but I also firmly believe Boylen’s schemes greatly minimized his impact. We’ll see with a different coach next year if he’s still here. I think it’s 50/50 at this point that he pans out to an above average starter because he’s lost a lot of development time and he needs to do a lot of work on his body. The desire to be a 4 is admittedly also a red flag to me because it denotes a lack of self-awareness. On the other hand he’s a smart kid who sees the way the league is going and knows you have a short window as a player to define yourself. The way you set yourself up for that second contract and on can mean 100+ million in career earnings.

I’m not comparing them as players but to me he has the same dynamic as Luka and Draymond with a less than ideal physical profile but a natural feel for the game that few guys have. We may not have time to wait on it but he feels to me like a guy who at 25 will be a turbo boost to a good team just like Draymond was for the Warriors. Someone brought up young Taj, we have to remember that rookie Taj was 2 years older than WCJ is right now. He’s played basically one NBA season (87 games).


You summed up my feelings on WCJ perfectly. Even with all the flaws/lack of development/injury setbacks, he still was our best player this year in terms of impact and that's impressive for a second year player. Boylen's system didn't do him any favors besides let him be the roll man for Zach.

We barely saw any of this from him and he can definitely be utilized more:

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Re: Is Gafford better than Wendell? 

Post#39 » by TeamMan » Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:31 pm

Showtime23 wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:To make it really simple:

Gafford's got hops. Wendell doesn't. He's also got an inch or so on Wendell. He's got quicker feet and bounce. For a defensive center in today's NBA, that matters a lot, because mobility and length is prized over weight and muscle.

IMO if Wendell cut his weight down by a whopping 20 lb., cut down to 240 or so, and he worked incredibly hard on his jump-shot, I could see him being a very good NBA player. Like, much better than Lauri and Gafford.

But those are two very big IFs. If Sweetney had cut down his weight and worked on his jumpshot, he'd also be a very good player. If Felicio did the same, he'd be very good.

So going by what we see- Gafford is cheaper and a more intriguing center. But, he is without a doubt a worst basketball player at this point. Yet, despite that, he is almost more effective, especially if he can learn a few basic defensive fundamentals and stay out of foul trouble (which frankly Wendell has got into regularly anyway).


I think talent and archetypes are similar. But imo, the attitude problem makes me want to get rid of Wendell.
This guy intentionally bulked up to 280 pounds to counter Embiid, Drummond and still complains getting banged up.
Then why did you sacrifice your quickness and got rid of your only strength which was mobility?

Despite being underweight, Gafford is just super athletic enough to counter these heavy weight centers.
So far, he has been in constant foul trouble which was I became a little down on him after hyping him up, but I feel like he has too much confidence and blue collar worth ethic to not succeed. Gafford doesnt have to gain significant weight to be effective unlike Wendell who is getting so frustrated its affecting his entire team. That terrible body language complaining.

Markksman_24 wrote:Question for those (and you) who want to see Wendell at PF:

Why? I don't think he has a very good shot, and while it can obviously improve, isn't that kind of a necessity to be a modern 4?

When the NBA went to the "true measurements" this year, WCJ was measured at 6-9, 255 lb.

Size wise (NOT talent wise), that compares with Blake Griffin at 6-9, 250 lb.

But yes, he could probably lose more weight. (Don't know what his body fat is like.)

He was also a good shooter from 3P range in college.

But what I see from him are a lot of mid-range push shots to avoid getting his shot blocked by the centers that he's playing against. Can't judge how much that would change if he played PF because Boylen never tried it.

Hopefully the new FO and (also hopefully) the new head coach will have more imagination with the way that they use different lineups next season.
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Re: Is Gafford better than Wendell? 

Post#40 » by DuckIII » Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:32 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
ATRAIN53 wrote:
Gafford, Cody White, Dunn, and Zach - those are my untouchables and a core I'd like to see blossom.

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