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DuckIII wrote:

TheSuzerain wrote:

ATRAIN53 wrote:
Gafford, Cody White, Dunn, and Zach - those are my untouchables and a core I'd like to see blossom.

As one of Dunn’s bigger supporters, I can honestly say I forgot he was on the team.

Dunn played a lot of SF this season.

To me that signaled that his career with the Bulls was over.

Most likely the Bulls will draft another SF this year, and most likely he could end up in a Sign & Trade after the draft.

I like both of them. Carter has the potential of providing a more varied offensive game, but has only shown glimpses of it. Gafford looks like a pure rim-running big. It's not an either/or. They can both be very valuable.

kodo wrote:Gafford has low defensive rebounding because he's hyper aggressive at contesting shots which automatically leaves you out of defensive rebounding position.

You make great points. The above is the one that gives me pause.

It seems optimistic to conclude that his rebounding woes were due to scheme. Other players in the same scheme didn’t have the same deficits. With respect to his aggressive style, that’s a fair point, but what I also saw was his inability to hold the paint against much bigger and stronger players. He is very slight and high cut, with a narrow waist. Its of course likely that he will grow stronger and savvier in time. But he just has so far to go - and it’s such a core skill for a player of his profile - that I have doubts.

This narrative is one of the one's that irks me the most from last season. Big Gafford fan. Wendell is significantly better.

DuckIII wrote:

TheSuzerain wrote:

ATRAIN53 wrote:
Gafford, Cody White, Dunn, and Zach - those are my untouchables and a core I'd like to see blossom.

As one of Dunn’s bigger supporters, I can honestly say I forgot he was on the team.

Damn, me too Duck. This year did not end the way you'd hope if you wanted to resign him long term. And depending on how this draft goes, there may not be any minutes available for him anymore.

No, Gafford is not better.
WCJ needs more development and hopefully a healthy season. I am excited to see him with a legit HC who can bring out his potential.

It's hard to get all that excited about Carter Jr. or Gafford. The Bulls bigs are looking average at best. I would gladly trade Carter Jr. and pick 7ish for the opportunity to bring James Wiseman to Chicago. IMO, Wiseman is a needle mover.

Rose2Boozer wrote:It's hard to get all that excited about Carter Jr. or Gafford. The Bulls bigs are looking average at best. I would gladly trade Carter Jr. and pick 7ish for the opportunity to bring James Wiseman to Chicago. IMO, Wiseman is a needle mover.

While I think Wiseman is 10x the better prospect, wouldnt trade that many assets for one of the worst positions in center.
Building a team around center doesnt work anymore unless small ball gets squashed and the Bulls already invested so much in the center position I am more interested in turning Wendell into someone like Kennard.

I dont even care whose better in center anymore because of their minimal impact. With how Gobert got exploited, I dont even want better players than Gafford bc honestly its a waste of money than spending 1 mil per yr. Sure claim Wendell is better than Gafford but they werent supposed to be comparable since your talking about a tier 1 Duke prospect vs 2nd round.
If the cap is 100mil, I am going to spend at least 95 on those 4 positions and maybe spend the rest on center.

As far as trade value, it's Wendell the Shell. But, in terms of on court play, his value is down with the style of play we have played with along with taken injuries into account. I think most people would take Wendell if 100% healthy, but like him, I'm not sure if he's durable enough to play C, but yet that's where most of his value would come from.

If I'm the Bulls, I'd be looking to blow up the whole roster (even LaVine whom I love) if it allows the Bulls to acquire more assets, more talent and most importantly, better fits for AKs vision.

Wendell is better at the moment. Gafford is pretty much just a clean up guy that can score around the rim and block shots. He's not a very active rebounder, particularly on the defensive side, which hurts his potential, in my opinion. I was hoping he could be one of those sneaky double-double guys, like a Clint Capella or Tyson Chandler, but I'm not sure I see that anymore.

Wendell isn't anything special, but he's been a solid defensive player and rebounder since coming into the league, and he also has a nice offensive skill set that is still developing. Unfortunately, Boylen didn't allow him to shoot those mid range jump shots this year, which I think hurt him, so if the new coach comes in and allows him to expand his offensive game a little bit on the perimeter, I think it could help him drastically improve his value as a player.

Also, if he could stop fouling people and getting himself hurt all the time, that'd be great too. Huge problem.

Gafford isn’t better than Carter right now but Gafford can definitely handle that starting center spot if Carter was to be moved. For that position the bulls need a role player who can defend, rebound and have size for rim protection. Gafford can do all these things and should improve over time.

Carter does this too but he’s a bit undersized for a center and very unreliable due to injuries. He has value that’s why AK should eventually make a move to trade him, he shouldn’t be in the Bulls long term plans. I’m all for giving Gafford the chance, I see a lot of Chandler in him, they are very similar.

When these threads exist you know we have run out of things to talk about.

GimmeDat wrote:This narrative is one of the one's that irks me the most from last season. Big Gafford fan. Wendell is significantly better.

Whats the data being used here?

Gafford’s RPM is worlds better than Wendell.

I see lots of takes on how Wendell is better, but not much information backing that up. Just curious where the information is coming from.

I think Wendell has more value and would keep him over Gafford if forced, but Gafford was significantly more impactful in limited minutes last year.

Payt10 wrote:Wendell is better at the moment. Gafford is pretty much just a clean up guy that can score around the rim and block shots. He's not a very active rebounder, particularly on the defensive side, which hurts his potential, in my opinion. I was hoping he could be one of those sneaky double-double guys, like a Clint Capella or Tyson Chandler, but I'm not sure I see that anymore.

Wendell isn't anything special, but he's been a solid defensive player and rebounder since coming into the league, and he also has a nice offensive skill set that is still developing. Unfortunately, Boylen didn't allow him to shoot those mid range jump shots this year, which I think hurt him, so if the new coach comes in and allows him to expand his offensive game a little bit on the perimeter, I think it could help him drastically improve his value as a player.

Also, if he could stop fouling people and getting himself hurt all the time, that'd be great too. Huge problem.

Everyone is somehow claiming a rookie is a finished product, but Wendell has all this untapped potential. I’m not sure that’s entirely fair.

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:

GimmeDat wrote:This narrative is one of the one's that irks me the most from last season. Big Gafford fan. Wendell is significantly better.

Whats the data being used here?

Gafford’s RPM is worlds better than Wendell.

I see lots of takes on how Wendell is better, but not much information backing that up. Just curious where the information is coming from.

I think Wendell has more value and would keep him over Gafford if forced, but Gafford was significantly more impactful in limited minutes last year.

His RPM is due to his offensive role. He played a highly efficient rim runner. WCJ has the better drpm.

WCJ is better at all facets of the game besides jumping high and getting blocks. Even then WCJ had a much higher block rate last year compared to this year. The blitzing defense didn't do him any favors.

There is a reason why gafford didn't get burn initially. He's not a good rebounder and he didn't really great grasp the team defense concept they were trying to play. I like Gafford for his limited role (like how I like archi for his limited role) but Gafford is far from a winning player yet. WCJ is already there.

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:

Payt10 wrote:Wendell is better at the moment. Gafford is pretty much just a clean up guy that can score around the rim and block shots. He's not a very active rebounder, particularly on the defensive side, which hurts his potential, in my opinion. I was hoping he could be one of those sneaky double-double guys, like a Clint Capella or Tyson Chandler, but I'm not sure I see that anymore.

Wendell isn't anything special, but he's been a solid defensive player and rebounder since coming into the league, and he also has a nice offensive skill set that is still developing. Unfortunately, Boylen didn't allow him to shoot those mid range jump shots this year, which I think hurt him, so if the new coach comes in and allows him to expand his offensive game a little bit on the perimeter, I think it could help him drastically improve his value as a player.

Also, if he could stop fouling people and getting himself hurt all the time, that'd be great too. Huge problem.

Everyone is somehow claiming a rookie is a finished product, but Wendell has all this untapped potential. I’m not sure that’s entirely fair.

I didn't say Gafford is a finished product, but I do think Carter has a little bit higher of a ceiling between the two of them if I had to choose.

Gafford has proven to be a very effective rim protector, though, which is always needed. Hopefully the next coach can get him to box out more consistently next year, because that part of his game needs a ton of work.

Payt10 wrote:

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:

Payt10 wrote:Wendell is better at the moment. Gafford is pretty much just a clean up guy that can score around the rim and block shots. He's not a very active rebounder, particularly on the defensive side, which hurts his potential, in my opinion. I was hoping he could be one of those sneaky double-double guys, like a Clint Capella or Tyson Chandler, but I'm not sure I see that anymore.

Wendell isn't anything special, but he's been a solid defensive player and rebounder since coming into the league, and he also has a nice offensive skill set that is still developing. Unfortunately, Boylen didn't allow him to shoot those mid range jump shots this year, which I think hurt him, so if the new coach comes in and allows him to expand his offensive game a little bit on the perimeter, I think it could help him drastically improve his value as a player.

Also, if he could stop fouling people and getting himself hurt all the time, that'd be great too. Huge problem.

Everyone is somehow claiming a rookie is a finished product, but Wendell has all this untapped potential. I’m not sure that’s entirely fair.

I didn't say Gafford is a finished product, but I do think Carter has a little bit higher of a ceiling between the two of them if I had to choose.

Gafford has proven to be a very effective rim protector, though, which is always needed. Hopefully the next coach can get him to box out more consistently next year, because that part of his game needs a ton of work.

Rebounding has always been gaffords problem. That was on his draft scouting report

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:

GimmeDat wrote:This narrative is one of the one's that irks me the most from last season. Big Gafford fan. Wendell is significantly better.

Whats the data being used here?

Gafford’s RPM is worlds better than Wendell.

I see lots of takes on how Wendell is better, but not much information backing that up. Just curious where the information is coming from.

I think Wendell has more value and would keep him over Gafford if forced, but Gafford was significantly more impactful in limited minutes last year.

Comparing a 14mpg player to a 29mpg player is tough. Wendell is still younger than Gafford (albeit not materially). And there is still the Duke/rookie Summer league where WCJ looked like your ideal modern 6'10'' big who can defend/rebound with bigs while also having legit switchability on the perimeter plus being a pick and pop/corner 3 threat big. The offensive part certainly hasn't panned out yet. But that is certainly the upside when looking at WCJ vs Gafford.

I almost prefer Gaff over WCJ, but lets give them one more season under new coach to see what we got. On other hand, if we have a chance to draft Wiseman, its a no brainer. Try then Carter at PF, if it works, great, if not move him.

PaKii94 wrote:

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:

GimmeDat wrote:This narrative is one of the one's that irks me the most from last season. Big Gafford fan. Wendell is significantly better.

Whats the data being used here?

Gafford’s RPM is worlds better than Wendell.

I see lots of takes on how Wendell is better, but not much information backing that up. Just curious where the information is coming from.

I think Wendell has more value and would keep him over Gafford if forced, but Gafford was significantly more impactful in limited minutes last year.

His RPM is due to his offensive role. He played a highly efficient rim runner. WCJ has the better drpm.

WCJ is better at all facets of the game besides jumping high and getting blocks. Even then WCJ had a much higher block rate last year compared to this year. The blitzing defense didn't do him any favors.

There is a reason why gafford didn't get burn initially. He's not a good rebounder and he didn't really great grasp the team defense concept they were trying to play. I like Gafford for his limited role (like how I like archi for his limited role) but Gafford is far from a winning player yet. WCJ is already there.

Drpm is factored into RPM. If I said Lebron is great and has a great overall RPM, a response of “Well Tony Allen has a higher drpm” isn’t really a meaningful argument. Gaffords overall impact was higher than Wendells. All it means is his offensive impact was much greater than Wendells. You picked a smaller stat that feeds into my larger stat, I don’t think that means much. And the drpm difference wasn’t very big.

Gafford didn’t get a lot of burn, especially initially because he’s a rookie 2nd round pick. He fact that he got as much burn as he did was an incredible sign for him. Paschal was the only other 2nd rounder in the draft to get more than minimal amount of minutes.