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Marks: Dunn to receive higher QO because he was deemed a starter

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Re: Marks: Dunn to receive higher QO because he was deemed a starter 

Post#81 » by WindyCityBorn » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:42 am

Pay him. It's one year. Only real reason to not do is being cheap again. He can help the team win.
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Re: Marks: Dunn to receive higher QO because he was deemed a starter 

Post#82 » by 2018C3 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:46 am

But its the type of thing Jannero Pargo or CJ Watson or Nate Robinson might do in a hot stretch when they were here.

Remember Coby is 19!

Coby did it at 19 with a EFG% of .478 scoring 13.2 points per game, he has plenty of room to grow.

Pargo maxed out at 13.5 points per game at the age of 24, and slightly out performed a rookie Coby while being 5 years older.

Cj Watson maxed out at 10.3 points per game, and was 4 years older his rookie season, and his peak stats occurred when he was 6 years older than Coby.

Nate peaked at 24, and had several years better than this years Coby. Nate was 21 as a rookie, and Coby's rookie yeas is better.

Coby's rookie year is also much better than Kris Dunns who was 22.

I have some faith in the Kid, he will improve his game. At 19 Coby's per 36 minute numbers are not much worse then Rose at 20. Granted he played almost 1/2 as many minutes, and is no where near the same caliber athlete. But the kid will be alright in some role, we just got to give him time.
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Re: Marks: Dunn to receive higher QO because he was deemed a starter 

Post#83 » by TeamMan » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:15 am

2018C3 wrote:But its the type of thing Jannero Pargo or CJ Watson or Nate Robinson might do in a hot stretch when they were here.

Remember Coby is 19!

Coby did it at 19 with a EFG% of .478 scoring 13.2 points per game, he has plenty of room to grow.

Pargo maxed out at 13.5 points per game at the age of 24, and slightly out performed a rookie Coby while being 5 years older.

Cj Watson maxed out at 10.3 points per game, and was 4 years older his rookie season, and his peak stats occurred when he was 6 years older than Coby.

Nate peaked at 24, and had several years better than this years Coby. Nate was 21 as a rookie, and Coby's rookie yeas is better.

Coby's rookie year is also much better than Kris Dunns who was 22.

I have some faith in the Kid, he will improve his game. At 19 Coby's per 36 minute numbers are not much worse then Rose at 20. Granted he played almost 1/2 as many minutes, and is no where near the same caliber athlete. But the kid will be alright in some role, we just got to give him time.

Thanks for this feedback.

I think that it's reasonable to project that Coby is going to improve as he gets older.

But more important, he was coming off the bench and playing in an offense where he wasn't the Go-to-Guy. That was Zach Lavine.

And if he can do this with Boylen, then he can do it with most any other coach in the league.
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Re: Marks: Dunn to receive higher QO because he was deemed a starter 

Post#84 » by TeamMan » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:29 am

dougthonus wrote:
TeamMan wrote:I don't think Dunn could ever achieve theses milestones in his entire career.

Coby did not do this in college, so you have to wonder what is his ceiling in the NBA?

And it's difficult to believe that theses achievements did not make a valuable contribution.

Coby White sets rookie record with 7 4th quarter 3-pointers

Coby White is the first rookie in NBA history to score 30+ points in three consecutive games coming off the bench.


:dontknow:

If you're excited about single game records, be my guest. History would show there are lots of single game record holders, especially when you come up with things like 3s in a quarter for a rookie or consecutive 30 point games for a rookie coming off the bench. Those are heavily qualified bizarre things that don't project to anything meaningful.

And, I agree, Dunn probably wouldn't score 30 a game for 3 straight games or hit 7 3s in a quarter, but its the type of thing Jannero Pargo or CJ Watson or Nate Robinson might do in a hot stretch when they were here. Not many guys who have an overall efficiency as low as Coby would ever be given the green light to shoot so much either.

The team clearly said screw it, let's see what Coby can do, we have nothing else going on.

2018C3 wrote:But its the type of thing Jannero Pargo or CJ Watson or Nate Robinson might do in a hot stretch when they were here.

Remember Coby is 19!

Coby did it at 19 with a EFG% of .478 scoring 13.2 points per game, he has plenty of room to grow...

As they say, "Records are meant to be broken." And I have to wonder how many years it will be before another rookie breaks either of these two records.

Also, it's easy to look at the down-side with players like Pargo, Watson or Robinson. But there are plenty of players in the HoF that have also set records during the course of their careers.

And as "2018C3" notes, those players were a lot older when they reached a point in their individual careers where they were capable of putting up these kinds of games. None of them did it in their rookie years, or even came close.
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Re: Marks: Dunn to receive higher QO because he was deemed a starter 

Post#85 » by sco » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:18 pm

2018C3 wrote:But its the type of thing Jannero Pargo or CJ Watson or Nate Robinson might do in a hot stretch when they were here.

Remember Coby is 19!

Coby did it at 19 with a EFG% of .478 scoring 13.2 points per game, he has plenty of room to grow.

Pargo maxed out at 13.5 points per game at the age of 24, and slightly out performed a rookie Coby while being 5 years older.

Cj Watson maxed out at 10.3 points per game, and was 4 years older his rookie season, and his peak stats occurred when he was 6 years older than Coby.

Nate peaked at 24, and had several years better than this years Coby. Nate was 21 as a rookie, and Coby's rookie yeas is better.

Coby's rookie year is also much better than Kris Dunns who was 22.

I have some faith in the Kid, he will improve his game. At 19 Coby's per 36 minute numbers are not much worse then Rose at 20. Granted he played almost 1/2 as many minutes, and is no where near the same caliber athlete. But the kid will be alright in some role, we just got to give him time.

Good point.

My biggest concern about Coby is whether he can develop enough of a passing game to play that scoring PG without being a detriment to the team by not making the guys around him better too. I think that's tough, and he hasn't shown an ability to set guys up.

One positive that Coby showed that Nate, Pargo, et al didn't was an interest/ability to defend. While he's not a ball hawk like Dunn, he uses his feet and body well.
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Re: Marks: Dunn to receive higher QO because he was deemed a starter 

Post#86 » by TeamMan » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:34 pm

sco wrote:
2018C3 wrote:But its the type of thing Jannero Pargo or CJ Watson or Nate Robinson might do in a hot stretch when they were here.

Remember Coby is 19!

Coby did it at 19 with a EFG% of .478 scoring 13.2 points per game, he has plenty of room to grow.

Pargo maxed out at 13.5 points per game at the age of 24, and slightly out performed a rookie Coby while being 5 years older.

Cj Watson maxed out at 10.3 points per game, and was 4 years older his rookie season, and his peak stats occurred when he was 6 years older than Coby.

Nate peaked at 24, and had several years better than this years Coby. Nate was 21 as a rookie, and Coby's rookie yeas is better.

Coby's rookie year is also much better than Kris Dunns who was 22.

I have some faith in the Kid, he will improve his game. At 19 Coby's per 36 minute numbers are not much worse then Rose at 20. Granted he played almost 1/2 as many minutes, and is no where near the same caliber athlete. But the kid will be alright in some role, we just got to give him time.

Good point.

My biggest concern about Coby is whether he can develop enough of a passing game to play that scoring PG without being a detriment to the team by not making the guys around him better too. I think that's tough, and he hasn't shown an ability to set guys up.

One positive that Coby showed that Nate, Pargo, et al didn't was an interest/ability to defend. While he's not a ball hawk like Dunn, he uses his feet and body well.

Excellent point!

I was actually very surprised about how quick both his feet and hands are.

And he also has a well developed BB-IQ on defense. He is able to read the offense patters and position himself for steels by just being in the right place.

To his credit, IMO Boylen had a lot to do with this. The Bulls were a good defensive team positionally, and also with rotations.

The problem, also IMO, was that he had too many 3-guard rotations. But the personnel was not his fault.
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Re: Marks: Dunn to receive higher QO because he was deemed a starter 

Post#87 » by dougthonus » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:04 pm

2018C3 wrote:Remember Coby is 19!

Coby did it at 19 with a EFG% of .478 scoring 13.2 points per game, he has plenty of room to grow.


Coby did it with a TS% of 50.6% which is WAY below the league average. It is near "do not shoot" level.

Pargo maxed out at 13.5 points per game at the age of 24, and slightly out performed a rookie Coby while being 5 years older.

Cj Watson maxed out at 10.3 points per game, and was 4 years older his rookie season, and his peak stats occurred when he was 6 years older than Coby.

Nate peaked at 24, and had several years better than this years Coby. Nate was 21 as a rookie, and Coby's rookie yeas is better.

Coby's rookie year is also much better than Kris Dunns who was 22.

I have some faith in the Kid, he will improve his game. At 19 Coby's per 36 minute numbers are not much worse then Rose at 20. Granted he played almost 1/2 as many minutes, and is no where near the same caliber athlete. But the kid will be alright in some role, we just got to give him time.


I agree he'll probably be alright in some role. To avoid any ambiguity, I don't think he'll be the next Jannero Pargo. I was just using that as a reference saying he's great based on having a hot streak or a hot quarter.

To start using terms like he's breaking records makes it sound like he's going to be a lot more than alright. He's an okay caliber prospect right now. He's a hot/cold scorer that looks amazing when hot and often is just atrocious when cold. That is why I compared him to the guys I did, not because I think he is the same caliber player or is destined to have the same career path.

I don't care how many points he scores per minute if he can't score them efficiently or do anything else positive for the team, and in his rookie season, that's where Coby was.
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Re: Marks: Dunn to receive higher QO because he was deemed a starter 

Post#88 » by dougthonus » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:20 pm

TeamMan wrote:I think that it's reasonable to project that Coby is going to improve as he gets older.

But more important, he was coming off the bench and playing in an offense where he wasn't the Go-to-Guy. That was Zach Lavine.

And if he can do this with Boylen, then he can do it with most any other coach in the league.


It's reasonable to expect any player to get better. Coby was a border-line rotation caliber player in his first year. Just a microwave guy who can shoot you in a game some days and out of a game the next day. If Coby did not get better, then he'd be a sub-MLE player in the NBA. Probably the type of guy you pay 3M-5M or so a year for.

So we agree he should get better, the question is just how much better.
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Re: Marks: Dunn to receive higher QO because he was deemed a starter 

Post#89 » by Showtime23 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:07 pm

TeamMan wrote:
Coby White sets rookie record with 7 4th quarter 3-pointers

Coby White is the first rookie in NBA history to score 30+ points in three consecutive games coming off the bench.


Yes that 7 3pter is impressive but when all he does is score that alone doesnt make him some untouchable core or anything.
Scoring 30 in 3 games is really nothing when you get 20 shots off the bench. Lauri would avg 40 with that touches.
Someone mentioned he is better than Dunn but quite honestly what I see in White is the anti Dunn. He is basically Dunn at the opposite end but looks more shiny bc he is a rookie and good on the offensive side.

If I have to make the decision as future starting pg as of now, neither is the answer which is the unfortunate truth. Being better than a simply prior lottery bust doesnt indicate anything and is more trying to be unnecessarily negative on Dunn when they dont have any similarities in the first place other than they play pg for the Bulls.
If you turn Lavine into a Tatum lite asset, I can see White replacing Lavine as his true successor to play the Jamal Crawford role.
But he isnt the second coming of Rose that will make the Bulls relevant all by himself so nothing to get really excited about.
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Re: Marks: Dunn to receive higher QO because he was deemed a starter 

Post#90 » by DASMACKDOWN » Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:47 pm

Honestly, I have just never understood general fandom that a rookie has to start off blazing hot and good to be considered good as an NBA player.

The league is a marathon not a sprint.

People like to cherry pick all stars careers like everyone comes in the league like that. 90% of all players don't.

Do people even remember Giannis as a rookie? Or how much of an indifference Westbrook was? Its either train wreck or spectacular. Look at how poor someone like Brandon Ingram was. I can go on and on.

I just have a hard time being too critical of a 19 year old that has played 65 games. First half was bad no question and even he would agree. The second half though was amazing and looking like a player figuring it out. I personally think he will be an absolute stud in the future.

But we could be wrong. Just like someone said Derrick Rose would only be as good as Devin Harris. I wont @ you :D
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Re: Marks: Dunn to receive higher QO because he was deemed a starter 

Post#91 » by dougthonus » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:51 pm

DASMACKDOWN wrote:Honestly, I have just never understood general fandom that a rookie has to start off blazing hot and good to be considered good as an NBA player.

The league is a marathon not a sprint.

People like to cherry pick all stars careers like everyone comes in the league like that. 90% of all players don't.

Do people even remember Giannis as a rookie? Or how much of an indifference Westbrook was? Its either train wreck or spectacular. Look at how poor someone like Brandon Ingram was. I can go on and on.

I just have a hard time being too critical of a 19 year old that has played 65 games. First half was bad no question and even he would agree. The second half though was amazing and looking like a player figuring it out. I personally think he will be an absolute stud in the future.

But we could be wrong. Just like someone said Derrick Rose would only be as good as Devin Harris. I wont @ you :D


I don't think there's any reason to think Coby sucks right now. I also don't think people should exaggerate where he is either. His rookie year was nothing special and shouldn't be regarded as something special.

There's somewhat of a major difference between Coby and a guy who is an absolutely freak athlete but is raw though. I don't think that's an adequate comparison at all.

If Coby is to become a great player, it's likely because he becomes an extremely good shooter that can get his shot off easily even in coverage. We've seen some hints of that his rookie year, just not consistency.

He doesn't have the athleticism or length where it's likely he becomes dominant offensively in another way.
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Re: Marks: Dunn to receive higher QO because he was deemed a starter 

Post#92 » by transplant » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:23 pm

Dunn is OK. Putting a $ figure on him right now is foolish, since we don't know what the 2021 salary cap will be. This goes for every signing.
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Re: Marks: Dunn to receive higher QO because he was deemed a starter 

Post#93 » by DASMACKDOWN » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:44 pm

dougthonus wrote:
He doesn't have the athleticism or length where it's likely he becomes dominant offensively in another way.


But I think the actual premise is disingenuous though. It would imply that everyone that is athletic and long are just the best players. The premise is just too shallow.

Is the quarterback with the strongest arm, the best quarterback in the league? The answer might be yes in alot of cases, Alot of times it isn't. It doesn't negate that it might significantly help alot. Its just not the only reason.

There are alot of allstars who are about as basic a prototype you can get. Non of their major strengths are based on them being overly athletic or overly long.

There are just so many factors that contribute to it. Some are just really smart players. Some are amazing ball handlers. Some just know how to utilize their body very well. Some are extremely clutch.

Alot of young players are just all run and jump. Nothing cerebral about it. That's why for most it takes 2-3 seasons for them to figure it out. Some can figure it out in half a season like Trae Young. Others a little longer like CJ Mcollum.

But that is the thing about prospects. You just dont know till after quite a few years if they are really young. Sometimes you can nail it like when Dallas moved Dennis Smith Jr for KP. On the flip side sometimes it burns you. Like OKC and Sabonis. What happened to them would be like putting Mokoka in a deal and he ends up being an allstar. That's how stunning that was for OKc.

But concerning any Bulls player not just Coby, we always expect perfection and apply it to all our players. If he improves his shooting, then people will start beefing about his assists. Heck Derrick was still polarized despite him winning MVP. Still saying he couldn't shoot or doesnt get enough assists etc leading to his allstar selections and MVP. So go figure that out.

But my feelings are if the Bulls turn this around, there has to be at least one or two home grown stars to emerge. (Homegrown as in drafted)

Out of our drafted #7 specials, Coby might statistically have the worst rookie year of the 3. But he may ultimately be the best player of the 3 by a wide margin.
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Re: Marks: Dunn to receive higher QO because he was deemed a starter 

Post#94 » by Dez » Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:57 am

Showtime23 wrote:
TeamMan wrote:
Coby White sets rookie record with 7 4th quarter 3-pointers

Coby White is the first rookie in NBA history to score 30+ points in three consecutive games coming off the bench.


Yes that 7 3pter is impressive but when all he does is score that alone doesnt make him some untouchable core or anything.
Scoring 30 in 3 games is really nothing when you get 20 shots off the bench. Lauri would avg 40 with that touches.
Someone mentioned he is better than Dunn but quite honestly what I see in White is the anti Dunn. He is basically Dunn at the opposite end but looks more shiny bc he is a rookie and good on the offensive side.

If I have to make the decision as future starting pg as of now, neither is the answer which is the unfortunate truth. Being better than a simply prior lottery bust doesnt indicate anything and is more trying to be unnecessarily negative on Dunn when they dont have any similarities in the first place other than they play pg for the Bulls.
If you turn Lavine into a Tatum lite asset, I can see White replacing Lavine as his true successor to play the Jamal Crawford role.
But he isnt the second coming of Rose that will make the Bulls relevant all by himself so nothing to get really excited about.


Making a decision on a rookie is incredibly silly and short-sighted. White at 19 has shown flashes of being a very good player and as a rookie that's what you want.

Also Lauri wouldn't average more than White even if he had double the touches, he can't create for himself.
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Re: Marks: Dunn to receive higher QO because he was deemed a starter 

Post#95 » by kulaz3000 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:44 am

dougthonus wrote:
He doesn't have the athleticism or length where it's likely he becomes dominant offensively in another way.


I agree, that he likely will never become a "dominate" offensive player because of what you stated, however, he still has a very good chance to be a very good starter, possibly even an All-Star player despite his lack of athleticism or length, as there are plenty of players who lacked in that department who have had very long careers.
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Re: Marks: Dunn to receive higher QO because he was deemed a starter 

Post#96 » by kulaz3000 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:47 am

DASMACKDOWN wrote:Out of our drafted #7 specials, Coby might statistically have the worst rookie year of the 3. But he may ultimately be the best player of the 3 by a wide margin.


This would surprise the hell out of me!

And I like him, and I'm all for giving him a fair crack, but even if he does become better than Lauri or Wendall, I don't think it will be by a wide margain. I still have a lot of faith in Carter, and I think in the right system and a better head coach, Lauri will be a lot more effective.

I'm not convinced.
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Re: Marks: Dunn to receive higher QO because he was deemed a starter 

Post#97 » by TeamMan » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:41 am

Showtime23 wrote:
TeamMan wrote:
Coby White sets rookie record with 7 4th quarter 3-pointers

Coby White is the first rookie in NBA history to score 30+ points in three consecutive games coming off the bench.


Yes that 7 3pter is impressive but when all he does is score that alone doesnt make him some untouchable core or anything.
Scoring 30 in 3 games is really nothing when you get 20 shots off the bench. Lauri would avg 40 with that touches.
Someone mentioned he is better than Dunn but quite honestly what I see in White is the anti Dunn. He is basically Dunn at the opposite end but looks more shiny bc he is a rookie and good on the offensive side.

If I have to make the decision as future starting pg as of now, neither is the answer which is the unfortunate truth. Being better than a simply prior lottery bust doesnt indicate anything and is more trying to be unnecessarily negative on Dunn when they dont have any similarities in the first place other than they play pg for the Bulls.
If you turn Lavine into a Tatum lite asset, I can see White replacing Lavine as his true successor to play the Jamal Crawford role.
But he isnt the second coming of Rose that will make the Bulls relevant all by himself so nothing to get really excited about.

Way back at the beginning of this thread it was talked about that Dunn was the Bulls starting SF.

Don't know how many games he started at PG, but it may not have been any at all, because Sato was one of the few durable players last season.

If by some miracle the Bulls do resign him, it will be as a backup swing-man who will sit deep on the bench.

There have been debates about the money, but it is doubtful that Dunn would even start at PG for the Bulls again.
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Re: Marks: Dunn to receive higher QO because he was deemed a starter 

Post#98 » by dougthonus » Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:27 pm

DASMACKDOWN wrote:But I think the actual premise is disingenuous though. It would imply that everyone that is athletic and long are just the best players. The premise is just too shallow.


I'm not sure what part of my statement you disagreed with, since you literally said later on that he could improve his shooting.

In the NBA, the best players either have super highly elite skills or very good skills and super highly elite athleticism. My premise is that Coby is absolutely not going to fall into the second category, so if he is to become an elite player, it will have to be due to the first category where he improves his skills to an elite level.

Of skills that he could potentially be super-elite at, there really don't seem to be many candidates outside of shooting, because he's presently not even above average for his position in court vision, ball handling, defending, or finishing.

Anything can happen of course, but it would be really rare for someone who has the athletic package of Coby and the current skillset to ever become an elite player. If he does, I think becoming an elite shooter is by far the most likely path. He shows flashes of Harden like shooting style, he just isn't consistent.

However, he takes lots of step back threes (or step side threes), pull up 3s, and high difficulty shots and has made them in bunches at times. He needs to get a lot more consistent at that of course which few players successfully do, but if he is capable of doing so, then he'll have a bit of "unstoppable" offense to him.
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Re: Marks: Dunn to receive higher QO because he was deemed a starter 

Post#99 » by dougthonus » Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:30 pm

kulaz3000 wrote:I agree, that he likely will never become a "dominate" offensive player because of what you stated, however, he still has a very good chance to be a very good starter, possibly even an All-Star player despite his lack of athleticism or length, as there are plenty of players who lacked in that department who have had very long careers.


Sure. You left off the other half of my argument.

Which was that he can become such a player if he becomes an elite shooter. Do you see a scenario where Coby is an all-star and not an elite shooter?
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Re: Marks: Dunn to receive higher QO because he was deemed a starter 

Post#100 » by 2018C3 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:55 pm

As far as Coby is concerned. It is a small sample size and should be taken with a grain of salt, but what is encouraging if you look at his last run of games, the guy was improving over his earlier season averages.

Whats good to see, it was not just in points scored, but also in Assists / Rebounds / And Field goal percentage. It's possible that things were starting to slow down for him a bit. It could have also just been a hot streak, but its encouraging to see either way.

Going forward, His best role might continue to be off the bench. Give him minutes when he is producing, and hope he becomes more consistent.

I believe Coby's body type is going to develop into a physically strong stocky guard. As he gets stronger, this should help him as a defender. What I like most about him now is the separation he gets on a step back jumper.

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