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White/Lavine Staring Backcourt

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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#21 » by MGB8 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:42 pm

It's too bad Valentine never developed into what he looked like he could have become coming into the draft - a playmaking wing with strong 3 point skills while being more a secondary scorer. That would fit nicely with a 2 scoring guard back-court.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#22 » by dougthonus » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:01 pm

MGB8 wrote:It's too bad Valentine never developed into what he looked like he could have become coming into the draft - a playmaking wing with strong 3 point skills while being more a secondary scorer. That would fit nicely with a 2 scoring guard back-court.


Would have been a nice niche player, but would be tough with Coby/LaVine because Valentine is another non-defender.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#23 » by Ccwatercraft » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:37 pm

dougthonus wrote:
MGB8 wrote:It's too bad Valentine never developed into what he looked like he could have become coming into the draft - a playmaking wing with strong 3 point skills while being more a secondary scorer. That would fit nicely with a 2 scoring guard back-court.


Would have been a nice niche player, but would be tough with Coby/LaVine because Valentine is another non-defender.


ya, that might be too much, although it remains to be seen what happens with Val anyway, right? I haven't read any news. I expect we will have a new defensive scheme anyway.

As far as Coby/Zach as a backcourt, I'm ok with that, coby showed me some stuff towards the end of the season so I'd like to see starting minutes out of him as he continues to develop.

Coby looked to be a pretty good defender, but i'm not much of an x&o guy so perhaps others see issues that I don't.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#24 » by dougthonus » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:04 pm

Ccwatercraft wrote:ya, that might be too much, although it remains to be seen what happens with Val anyway, right? I haven't read any news. I expect we will have a new defensive scheme anyway.

As far as Coby/Zach as a backcourt, I'm ok with that, coby showed me some stuff towards the end of the season so I'd like to see starting minutes out of him as he continues to develop.

Coby looked to be a pretty good defender, but i'm not much of an x&o guy so perhaps others see issues that I don't.


I think Coby will be adequate defensively with some seasoning. Lacks length / lateral quickness to be a high level impact defender, but he puts forth a lot of effort. His conditioning is good, he plays with high motor on both ends.

I'd assume Val was gone, I just took the comment to mean, would have been interesting had he panned out and not whether not he was a real fit going forward (which he doesn't seem to be).
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backc 

Post#25 » by MrSparkle » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:02 pm

Not to pat my back, but when Jimmy came in, even in his limited low-volume efforts, I saw a serious player. It was pretty concrete; maybe the guy wasn’t winning any shooting contests, but he could handle, draw a FT, finish around the rim, rebound and defend for 48 min.

With Thabo, Tyrus, Snell, Doug, Teague, Bobby — I had hopes (as a fan) and reserved belief they could develop into good Bulls, but it was more of a fantasy than a reality.

With Coby, I am well aware his first season, shot attempts and percentages make Bobby Portis look like Klay, but I really saw the funkiest, most dysfunctional system and lineups out there. He is barely 6’4, 180 lb., and the kids as literally playing SF in a zero-motion offense, and apparently asked to shoot every shot he wanted.

Beyond that, I totally am aware he’s not a legit superstar PG prospect like Paul, Kyrie, Curry or Lillard. The big thing is he can’t really generate points in the paint at will. Does not draw fouls and got blocked easily when he put his head down. So he will need to rely on great shooting and development in a system.

But that’s ok - Murray, Lowry, Conley, Kemba are/were examples of high-level guards who weren’t goats. Coby does have some special and concrete traits (to get back to the Jimmy talk):

- When he gets hot, he torches the net. Unstoppable from the arc and off-the-dribble. It won’t happen every night, but he did have 9 excellent (25+) scoring games, and atleast 10 more where he shot a good percentage and chipped in 15+.

- There were inexplicable games like Detroit 12/21/19 where he was torching the net (5/7 from 3P), had 19 points... and Boylen played him for 17 minutes. One of the reasons I couldn’t stand Jim. If you browse through the game logs, there are many examples of losses where the team shot like crap, Coby was in the 40-50% range, but played under 25 minutes.

- His defense on guards seemed routinely solid unless the Bulls defense became a crazy pinwheel of undersized roulette, with Coby switching and blitzing between wings (which was frankly ridiculous).

- He is a very good ball handler, and made some nice passes in low volume. The last week before Covid he looked good starting at point.

I’m not saying he’s a star. But I do think he deserves a long look at PG, and has a better ceiling than anybody on this team besides Zach...

Who I actually don’t think has much of a ceiling beyond where’s he at (20 PER super scorer). Concrete evidence is good though; he can make a basket from any where on the court, albeit at the cost of many intangibles. He has drifted up and down in those intangibles.

I do think it’s feasible for this backcourt to become a very hot scoring combo ala Lillard/McCollum. I don’t know if that equates to wins, but at the least, it’d give the Bulls a direction and player value. I do think Coby is the more appealing piece in theory, if he can play full-time PG.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backc 

Post#26 » by Ccwatercraft » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:30 pm

MrSparkle wrote:Not to pat my back, but when Jimmy came in, even in his limited low-volume efforts, I saw a serious player. It was pretty concrete; maybe the guy wasn’t winning any shooting contests, but he could handle, draw a FT, finish around the rim, rebound and defend for 48 min.

With Thabo, Tyrus, Snell, Doug, Teague, Bobby — I had hopes (as a fan) and reserved belief they could develop into good Bulls, but it was more of a fantasy than a reality.

With Coby, I am well aware his first season, shot attempts and percentages make Bobby Portis look like Klay, but I really saw the funkiest, most dysfunctional system and lineups out there. He is barely 6’4, 180 lb., and the kids as literally playing SF in a zero-motion offense, and apparently asked to shoot every shot he wanted.

Beyond that, I totally am aware he’s not a legit superstar PG prospect like Paul, Kyrie, Curry or Lillard. The big thing is he can’t really generate points in the paint at will. Does not draw fouls and got blocked easily when he put his head down. So he will need to rely on great shooting and development in a system.

But that’s ok - Murray, Lowry, Conley, Kemba are/were examples of high-level guards who weren’t goats. Coby does have some special and concrete traits (to get back to the Jimmy talk):

- When he gets hot, he torches the net. Unstoppable from the arc and off-the-dribble. It won’t happen every night, but he did have 9 excellent (25+) scoring games, and atleast 10 more where he shot a good percentage and chipped in 15+.

- There were inexplicable games like Detroit 12/21/19 where he was torching the net (5/7 from 3P), had 19 points... and Boylen played him for 17 minutes. One of the reasons I couldn’t stand Jim. If you browse through the game logs, there are many examples of losses where the team shot like crap, Coby was in the 40-50% range, but played under 25 minutes.

- His defense on guards seemed routinely solid unless the Bulls defense became a crazy pinwheel of undersized roulette, with Coby switching and blitzing between wings (which was frankly ridiculous).

- He is a very good ball handler, and made some nice passes in low volume. The last week before Covid he looked good starting at point.

I’m not saying he’s a star. But I do think he deserves a long look at PG, and has a better ceiling than anybody on this team besides Zach...

Who I actually don’t think has much of a ceiling beyond where’s he at (20 PER super scorer). Concrete evidence is good though; he can make a basket from any where on the court, albeit at the cost of many intangibles. He has drifted up and down in those intangibles.

I do think it’s feasible for this backcourt to become a very hot scoring combo ala Lillard/McCollum. I don’t know if that equates to wins, but at the least, it’d give the Bulls a direction and player value. I do think Coby is the more appealing piece in theory, if he can play full-time PG.


Amen, all great points, solid synopsis.

Love the Portland reference, I feel the same.

He has shown me a great step back shot.

His head down drives need work I think he can adjust to the speed of nba defenders and improve there.

I found it difficult to assess is defensive capabilities because our system was wacky and lineups, ugh.

Basically I'm all over a long look at zach/coby, It seems like a no brainer, I assumed that about 90% of the hardcore fans are as well but maybe I'm overly optimistic.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#27 » by Chi town » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:50 pm

Good discussion. In many ways the next 3 seasons will be determined by the White/Lavine backcourt and/or what AK can get for them in trade.

1. As Doug said Lavine is asked to bail the team out way to often. Sometimes he does that to himself but mostly its the team offense. This will get better with a guy like Coby that can create for himself and take some pressure off. Otto being able to shoot will give more space on the court than Dunn and considering Lauri won't have a 3 or dunk restriction on him I bet he will score more and take pressure off Lavine as well.

PLAY LAVINE OFF BALL.
This is what needs to happen more. Limit his ability to turn it over. Run him around screen like Klay. Make the defense move. Playing him constantly in PnR isn't good. Of course when he gets in going get him the ball. I think Lavine can be a winning player but only if he becomes a secondary playmaker and is played more off ball as a shooter.

2. This league is all about the 3 ball and the holy grail is creating 3pt attempt off the dribble. Think Steph, Klay, and Harden. Coby has that ability in transition and with that stepback. This skill can't be underestimated. Factor in his D and work ethic and it seems Coby will maximize his potential which IMO is a fringe star 2nd best player on the teamish.

PLAY COBY ON AND OFF BALL.
Yes, Coby needs the ball in his hands to learn how to playmake and to see if he can be our PG of the future. He can also really shoot and his form looked better and better as the season went on. I think Coby could be lethal off the ball as a shooter running off screens much like Zach in the Klay role. If we had a PG that could create and find Coby for 3s he'd excel there.

3. We aren't going anywhere if Coby and Zach are our best players. Even if Lauri returns and tops out and Wendell as well... just not enough playmaking. We need a PG like CP3 to teach these guys to win and mentor Coby or we need to draft a playmaker like Luka or Morant in Melo, Hayes, or Deni. Otherwise we need a Jimmy Buckets type warrior that can playmake and D up which could be Okoro.

It will be interesting to see what AK and Evs do. If we land a big fish like Giannis then Coby and Lavine fit really well. If we trade for a guy like Simmons and somehow piece it all together... who knows.

We are where just about every team is... A superstar away.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#28 » by TeamMan » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:15 pm

Showtime23 wrote:Unless Hutch becomes that SF u sugggested for, no. Because Otto already fits that description and the Bulls would be at best 8th seed treadmill team for the next decade. Gafford and WCJ are redundant so its useless to play them together. What kind of lottery team is already capped out when theres no stars on the team?

In this lineup Gafford would be the rim-protecter and WCJ would be the enforcer.

Both are excellent defenders.

Also, Gafford has demonstrated that he's an adequate low-post offensive threat.

In addition this would allow WCJ to go back to the +40% 3P-shooter that he was in college.

It's not clear to me what problem OPJ had last season, but unless he improves his durability, he will have a limited future with the Bulls as well as the entire NBA.

It would be great if he fully recovers and becomes the near-All Star player that he could be. But some players never turn that corner because they just don't have the drive (like MJ) to become an NBA HoF player.

But the Bulls will have a chance to get that type of player at SF in this year's draft.

There are several players that appear to want to be better than average in their NBA careers.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#29 » by FriedRise » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:57 pm

Man Coby was torching the league right after that All Star snub. He was truly fun to watch, averaging 26/4/4 on 48/43/90 shooting playing 34mpg. Then of course as soon as he finally got the start, our season ended!! :D

Our biggest issue was always we didn't have anyone else who's lethal enough to handle the ball in the starting lineup outside of Zach. Coby gave us that other option, and I really wanted to see more of that. We would've had a good handful of games to see how the Coby and Zach lineup would've looked along with Otto, Lauri, and WCJ even with Jimbo at the helm.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backc 

Post#30 » by MrSparkle » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:05 pm

Ccwatercraft wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:Not to pat my back, but when Jimmy came in, even in his limited low-volume efforts, I saw a serious player. It was pretty concrete; maybe the guy wasn’t winning any shooting contests, but he could handle, draw a FT, finish around the rim, rebound and defend for 48 min.

With Thabo, Tyrus, Snell, Doug, Teague, Bobby — I had hopes (as a fan) and reserved belief they could develop into good Bulls, but it was more of a fantasy than a reality.

With Coby, I am well aware his first season, shot attempts and percentages make Bobby Portis look like Klay, but I really saw the funkiest, most dysfunctional system and lineups out there. He is barely 6’4, 180 lb., and the kids as literally playing SF in a zero-motion offense, and apparently asked to shoot every shot he wanted.

Beyond that, I totally am aware he’s not a legit superstar PG prospect like Paul, Kyrie, Curry or Lillard. The big thing is he can’t really generate points in the paint at will. Does not draw fouls and got blocked easily when he put his head down. So he will need to rely on great shooting and development in a system.

But that’s ok - Murray, Lowry, Conley, Kemba are/were examples of high-level guards who weren’t goats. Coby does have some special and concrete traits (to get back to the Jimmy talk):

- When he gets hot, he torches the net. Unstoppable from the arc and off-the-dribble. It won’t happen every night, but he did have 9 excellent (25+) scoring games, and atleast 10 more where he shot a good percentage and chipped in 15+.

- There were inexplicable games like Detroit 12/21/19 where he was torching the net (5/7 from 3P), had 19 points... and Boylen played him for 17 minutes. One of the reasons I couldn’t stand Jim. If you browse through the game logs, there are many examples of losses where the team shot like crap, Coby was in the 40-50% range, but played under 25 minutes.

- His defense on guards seemed routinely solid unless the Bulls defense became a crazy pinwheel of undersized roulette, with Coby switching and blitzing between wings (which was frankly ridiculous).

- He is a very good ball handler, and made some nice passes in low volume. The last week before Covid he looked good starting at point.

I’m not saying he’s a star. But I do think he deserves a long look at PG, and has a better ceiling than anybody on this team besides Zach...

Who I actually don’t think has much of a ceiling beyond where’s he at (20 PER super scorer). Concrete evidence is good though; he can make a basket from any where on the court, albeit at the cost of many intangibles. He has drifted up and down in those intangibles.

I do think it’s feasible for this backcourt to become a very hot scoring combo ala Lillard/McCollum. I don’t know if that equates to wins, but at the least, it’d give the Bulls a direction and player value. I do think Coby is the more appealing piece in theory, if he can play full-time PG.


Amen, all great points, solid synopsis.

Love the Portland reference, I feel the same.

He has shown me a great step back shot.

His head down drives need work I think he can adjust to the speed of nba defenders and improve there.

I found it difficult to assess is defensive capabilities because our system was wacky and lineups, ugh.

Basically I'm all over a long look at zach/coby, It seems like a no brainer, I assumed that about 90% of the hardcore fans are as well but maybe I'm overly optimistic.


Yeah that step-back 3P shot will be his big money-maker if he can raise his overall FG% up to a respectable level. He executes it cleanly and his shooting stroke is pure - no reason he can’t get improve the numbers IMO. He took a lot of contested or trigger-happy shots, but I can’t even begin comparing him to Blakeney or Zach for that matter. He actually generates the space for a good look. It’s a matter of finding a two-man game (Lauri, Otto, or Zach) so he doesn’t force Distant shots against larger defenders.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#31 » by dougthonus » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:07 pm

Showtime23 wrote:Unless Hutch becomes that SF u sugggested for, no. Because Otto already fits that description and the Bulls would be at best 8th seed treadmill team for the next decade. Gafford and WCJ are redundant so its useless to play them together. What kind of lottery team is already capped out when theres no stars on the team?


You are right about the team likely becoming a treadmill team, but at the same time, there is no way to acquire a star. This is a general problem/risk they will face no matter what, so it also can't be an excuse to do or not do something. There's virtually no move the Bulls will make that pass the test of making them a championship contender when they're currently a bottom 3rd team in the league with no star except getting lucky enough to win the lottery.

Lavine is just who he is. 2-3 decisions is what separates from stars to ok players and its not like Lavine makes only couple every game. Most of the time, I can see dozens he make and 2-3 usually at crunch time.


Perhaps, but on his contract, that's probably not a problem. He's paid like a 3rd-4th best player on a team. I think he's better than "ok" based on his scoring and efficiency. It's just if you take anyone that should be the 3rd or 4th best guy on a team and tell him to be the best guy the results won't be so great.

Its not like White, Lavine are terrible players but those two are a terrible lineup together. The plus minus suggests my point.


That is true right now. The Bulls will have to hope it's not true in the future or move one of them.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#32 » by Hugi Mancura » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:46 pm

Personally would not want to discuss who should start before teams offensive tactic is known and who Bulls have drafted. If they keep playing same style as last year then you could start them together. Their playing style fits best on this current style. But right now Bulls are playing losing basketball, so maybe it is better to change the style.

Biggest problem for me for playing them together is the ability to create good shots on clutch situations. Both seems like good scorers who can create their own shots. Skill which is needed in NBA, but a skill you can't build your offense around. Not anymore. So team needs some way to create those high % shots. Sato is not the answer, neither is Lavine or White. One solution would be trying to build GSW ball moving style of offense, but in that kind of offense skills needed are different than in the Bulls last years offense. So can't really say how well current players would fit in that kind of offense. I can guess, but so can everyone else, but we won't know it until we see it.

A lot depends also the draft. Lamelo Ball, Killian Hayes and Tyrese Haliburton all are excellent passing PG's. And I think if any of them are free when it is Bulls pick they should take one. I don't think Bulls will find Porter's replacement in next draft. From early picks only Vassell might fit the bill and he is a project. Bulls should make a trade if they pick any other than those 4.

But on the long run, if Bulls really want to succeed I don't see neither Lavine or White to be the go to guy, so it would mean Bulls would need someone who is better with the ball than either of them and when that happens someone needs to be the Bulls Lou Williams.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#33 » by kodo » Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:38 pm

Prime Nash would struggle to average 7 apg on this team. Dunn and Shaq on the wings makes the Bulls offense one if the worst in the league, Lauri was injured and almost as bad for the early part if the year.

Assists take two to work. Even our vet additions Sato and Thad were terrible on offense. On any particular game after 3 straight possessions of Thad Young spinning into nowhere and losing the ball, I was fine with Lavine just hero-balling it.

Passing assumes competent players around you. If the team was 4 Felicios and Lavine, the ball shouldn't leave Lavine's hands. And while we didn't have 4 Felicios, some nights we came close.

Bulls players on "wide open" shots (closest defender 6'+ away)
Lauri: 38% Coby: 35% Thad: 38%
Sato: 39% Dunn: 24% Kornet: 35%
Hutch: 33% WCJ: 33%

Only Zach & Denzel were above 40% FG on open shots. I removed Otto due to low sample size.

This quote is from very early in the season, but I don't think things changed radically over the season.
Through 10 games, the Bulls have attempted 347 3-point shots. Of those attempts, a whopping 89.6% of them are considered open or wide-open by the league’s closest defender metrics (1). The Bulls are hitting just 31.1% of those open or wide-open shots. That is far below the league average. They rank 27th in the NBA on ‘wide open’ threes made, and 24th in the NBA on ‘open’ threes made.

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/bulls-offensive-system-working-and-math-backs-jim-boylen#:~:text=Through%2010%20games%2C%20the%20Bulls,far%20below%20the%20league%20average.

The Bulls ballhandlers do pass the ball and do find the open man. We just keep bricking, and no assists are given for bricks. Our assist and offense problems are not due to the lead guards being black holes. They pass, they just aren't passing to anyone who can hit a shot.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#34 » by sco » Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:55 pm

FriedRise wrote:Man Coby was torching the league right after that All Star snub. He was truly fun to watch, averaging 26/4/4 on 48/43/90 shooting playing 34mpg. Then of course as soon as he finally got the start, our season ended!! :D

Our biggest issue was always we didn't have anyone else who's lethal enough to handle the ball in the starting lineup outside of Zach. Coby gave us that other option, and I really wanted to see more of that. We would've had a good handful of games to see how the Coby and Zach lineup would've looked along with Otto, Lauri, and WCJ even with Jimbo at the helm.

Other than missing 3's, Coby's biggest problem pre-ASG was getting blocked on lay-ups. He seemed to adjust his finishing at the rim to stop telegraphing his release. Also, he got better at pushing the pace in transition so that defenders couldn't set-up for him.

On the 3's, his relative strength was making open 3's (which is more than Lauri could say). I think he built confidence later in the season with those step-backs, which he seemed to be missing regularly earlier.

I would note that his biggest positive note coming into the draft is that he is a relentless worker. That is the one thing that I hold out hope for his continued improvement. I think we often undervalue work ethic (vs. physical attributes) when we evaluate our guys.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#35 » by MrSparkle » Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:56 pm

kodo wrote:Prime Nash would struggle to average 7 apg on this team. Dunn and Shaq on the wings makes the Bulls offense one if the worst in the league, Lauri was injured and almost as bad for the early part if the year.

Assists take two to work. Even our vet additions Sato and Thad were terrible on offense. On any particular game after 3 straight possessions of Thad Young spinning into nowhere and losing the ball, I was fine with Lavine just hero-balling it.

Passing assumes competent players around you. If the team was 4 Felicios and Lavine, the ball shouldn't leave Lavine's hands. And while we didn't have 4 Felicios, some nights we came close.

Bulls players on "wide open" shots (closest defender 6'+ away)
Lauri: 38% Coby: 35% Thad: 38%
Sato: 39% Dunn: 24% Kornet: 35%
Hutch: 33% WCJ: 33%

Only Zach & Denzel were above 40% FG on open shots. I removed Otto due to low sample size.

This quote is from very early in the season, but I don't think things changed radically over the season.
Through 10 games, the Bulls have attempted 347 3-point shots. Of those attempts, a whopping 89.6% of them are considered open or wide-open by the league’s closest defender metrics (1). The Bulls are hitting just 31.1% of those open or wide-open shots. That is far below the league average. They rank 27th in the NBA on ‘wide open’ threes made, and 24th in the NBA on ‘open’ threes made.

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/bulls-offensive-system-working-and-math-backs-jim-boylen#:~:text=Through%2010%20games%2C%20the%20Bulls,far%20below%20the%20league%20average.

The Bulls ballhandlers do pass the ball and do find the open man. We just keep bricking, and no assists are given for bricks. Our assist and offense problems are not due to the lead guards being black holes. They pass, they just aren't passing to anyone who can hit a shot.


What’s even worse... with the volume of wide open looks...is at least half the guys were considered ‘good’ shooters, earning their reputation and money with shooting , not defense, rebounding or intangibles.

Lauri
Sato
Coby
Kornet
Valentine

Mokoka and Arci lead the team for the year.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#36 » by PaKii94 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:34 am

MrSparkle wrote:
kodo wrote:Prime Nash would struggle to average 7 apg on this team. Dunn and Shaq on the wings makes the Bulls offense one if the worst in the league, Lauri was injured and almost as bad for the early part if the year.

Assists take two to work. Even our vet additions Sato and Thad were terrible on offense. On any particular game after 3 straight possessions of Thad Young spinning into nowhere and losing the ball, I was fine with Lavine just hero-balling it.

Passing assumes competent players around you. If the team was 4 Felicios and Lavine, the ball shouldn't leave Lavine's hands. And while we didn't have 4 Felicios, some nights we came close.

Bulls players on "wide open" shots (closest defender 6'+ away)
Lauri: 38% Coby: 35% Thad: 38%
Sato: 39% Dunn: 24% Kornet: 35%
Hutch: 33% WCJ: 33%

Only Zach & Denzel were above 40% FG on open shots. I removed Otto due to low sample size.

This quote is from very early in the season, but I don't think things changed radically over the season.
Through 10 games, the Bulls have attempted 347 3-point shots. Of those attempts, a whopping 89.6% of them are considered open or wide-open by the league’s closest defender metrics (1). The Bulls are hitting just 31.1% of those open or wide-open shots. That is far below the league average. They rank 27th in the NBA on ‘wide open’ threes made, and 24th in the NBA on ‘open’ threes made.

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/bulls-offensive-system-working-and-math-backs-jim-boylen#:~:text=Through%2010%20games%2C%20the%20Bulls,far%20below%20the%20league%20average.

The Bulls ballhandlers do pass the ball and do find the open man. We just keep bricking, and no assists are given for bricks. Our assist and offense problems are not due to the lead guards being black holes. They pass, they just aren't passing to anyone who can hit a shot.


What’s even worse... with the volume of wide open looks...is at least half the guys were considered ‘good’ shooters, earning their reputation and money with shooting , not defense, rebounding or intangibles.

Lauri
Sato
Coby
Kornet
Valentine

Mokoka and Arci lead the team for the year.



I've been rewatching the games and watching them again, it seems like the biggest problem with the offense is there is no offensive system. Boylen put all his eggs in the blitzing defense basket and for offense he took the analytics mandate and implemented "pass the ball, only take 3s and layups" without any nuance.

The offense should have been heavy on Lauri/Lavine in the first few games. Instead it was "equal balance". That's why everyone's post game interview was usually "we are trying to find our offensive role".

That's why the offense devolved into Lavine/Coby iso ball
during tough situations and only those two had "good" years and not down years like everyone else. This team was like top 3 youngest in the league! They need a structure and need to learn how to win. Not to be thrown into the fire to just make things happen.

Then add in the tough defense that was too unbalanced (easy bucket for the other team if not everyone is tuned on a string) and didn't cater to 90% of our players (you need lengthy wings to play that type of defense...instead we downsized to 3 guard rotations)
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#37 » by scottyg » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:09 am

I feel like Lauri didn’t show enough to be a starter yet and I feel like Coby White should be 6th man off the bench with Markannen as the 7th man and let those 2 build chemisty together for
2 years and torch the 2nd units and this is why we should trade for Chris Paul and Gallanari and let Coby and Lauri learn from these 2, u can even let Lauri and Coby get more minutes than Paul and Gallanari, and then we draft either Vassell or Okro at the SF position and let’s see what this team can do
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#38 » by Rose2Boozer » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:13 am

They're probably the most interesting thing on the roster. I'm down on the bigs. Those guys aren't nearly as good as I hoped. If I'm watching a Bulls game, it's more than likely to see the progression of Lavine and White.
BRING BACK NOAH & THABO
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#39 » by MrSparkle » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:14 am

PaKii94 wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:
kodo wrote:Prime Nash would struggle to average 7 apg on this team. Dunn and Shaq on the wings makes the Bulls offense one if the worst in the league, Lauri was injured and almost as bad for the early part if the year.

Assists take two to work. Even our vet additions Sato and Thad were terrible on offense. On any particular game after 3 straight possessions of Thad Young spinning into nowhere and losing the ball, I was fine with Lavine just hero-balling it.

Passing assumes competent players around you. If the team was 4 Felicios and Lavine, the ball shouldn't leave Lavine's hands. And while we didn't have 4 Felicios, some nights we came close.

Bulls players on "wide open" shots (closest defender 6'+ away)
Lauri: 38% Coby: 35% Thad: 38%
Sato: 39% Dunn: 24% Kornet: 35%
Hutch: 33% WCJ: 33%

Only Zach & Denzel were above 40% FG on open shots. I removed Otto due to low sample size.

This quote is from very early in the season, but I don't think things changed radically over the season.

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/bulls-offensive-system-working-and-math-backs-jim-boylen#:~:text=Through%2010%20games%2C%20the%20Bulls,far%20below%20the%20league%20average.

The Bulls ballhandlers do pass the ball and do find the open man. We just keep bricking, and no assists are given for bricks. Our assist and offense problems are not due to the lead guards being black holes. They pass, they just aren't passing to anyone who can hit a shot.


What’s even worse... with the volume of wide open looks...is at least half the guys were considered ‘good’ shooters, earning their reputation and money with shooting , not defense, rebounding or intangibles.

Lauri
Sato
Coby
Kornet
Valentine

Mokoka and Arci lead the team for the year.



I've been rewatching the games and watching them again, it seems like the biggest problem with the offense is there is no offensive system. Boylen put all his eggs in the blitzing defense basket and for offense he took the analytics mandate and implemented "pass the ball, only take 3s and layups" without any nuance.

The offense should have been heavy on Lauri/Lavine in the first few games. Instead it was "equal balance". That's why everyone's post game interview was usually "we are trying to find our offensive role".

That's why the offense devolved into Lavine/Coby iso ball
during tough situations and only those two had "good" years and not down years like everyone else. This team was like top 3 youngest in the league! They need a structure and need to learn how to win. Not to be thrown into the fire to just make things happen.

Then add in the tough defense that was too unbalanced (easy bucket for the other team if not everyone is tuned on a string) and didn't cater to 90% of our players (you need lengthy wings to play that type of defense...instead we downsized to 3 guard rotations)


Yep.

It really was the most inane thing I’d ever seen. Given his positive words for his players’ off-season... You’d think Boylen would take what worked in March, look at his personnel, consider the age of his players and shape a system that would be both good for their development and also make use of their depth, shooting ability, big men skills and offensive IQ.

Somehow, that turned into totally irrational expectations from guys like Lauri, Sato, Coby, Wendell and Thad.

Eliminate IQ from the equation (blitz D and 3P bomb without dribble penetration or movement, lol). Sato, Lauri became scarecrows? Lauri and Wendell were asked to become young Draymond on D. Zach and Coby were asked to play like James Harden. Thad was asked to abandon everything that made him a decent 10y pro in favor of attempting to mimic Durant’s role.

It kind of makes me think of why Doug Collins was always a mediocre coach. The “give MJ the ball and get out the way” approach kinda sucks. Let alone when it’s Zach and rookie Coby.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#40 » by PaKii94 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:06 am

MrSparkle wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:
What’s even worse... with the volume of wide open looks...is at least half the guys were considered ‘good’ shooters, earning their reputation and money with shooting , not defense, rebounding or intangibles.

Lauri
Sato
Coby
Kornet
Valentine

Mokoka and Arci lead the team for the year.



I've been rewatching the games and watching them again, it seems like the biggest problem with the offense is there is no offensive system. Boylen put all his eggs in the blitzing defense basket and for offense he took the analytics mandate and implemented "pass the ball, only take 3s and layups" without any nuance.

The offense should have been heavy on Lauri/Lavine in the first few games. Instead it was "equal balance". That's why everyone's post game interview was usually "we are trying to find our offensive role".

That's why the offense devolved into Lavine/Coby iso ball
during tough situations and only those two had "good" years and not down years like everyone else. This team was like top 3 youngest in the league! They need a structure and need to learn how to win. Not to be thrown into the fire to just make things happen.

Then add in the tough defense that was too unbalanced (easy bucket for the other team if not everyone is tuned on a string) and didn't cater to 90% of our players (you need lengthy wings to play that type of defense...instead we downsized to 3 guard rotations)


Yep.

It really was the most inane thing I’d ever seen. Given his positive words for his players’ off-season... You’d think Boylen would take what worked in March, look at his personnel, consider the age of his players and shape a system that would be both good for their development and also make use of their depth, shooting ability, big men skills and offensive IQ.

Somehow, that turned into totally irrational expectations from guys like Lauri, Sato, Coby, Wendell and Thad.

Eliminate IQ from the equation (blitz D and 3P bomb without dribble penetration or movement, lol). Sato, Lauri became scarecrows? Lauri and Wendell were asked to become young Draymond on D. Zach and Coby were asked to play like James Harden. Thad was asked to abandon everything that made him a decent 10y pro in favor of attempting to mimic Durant’s role.

It kind of makes me think of why Doug Collins was always a mediocre coach. The “give MJ the ball and get out the way” approach kinda sucks. Let alone when it’s Zach and rookie Coby.


Ironically, Boylen's pregame comments on Lauri apply pretty well for my post at the game that I'm at (11/03 vs pacers).

This was after 6 games of missing 3s and injurying his oblique for Lauri:
"Lauri's ready to play. I want him to grit his teeth, bear down, run the floor, rebound the ball. I don't talk to him about the offensive part of the game. I talk to him about the defensive end. I talk to him about running a guy over, picking him up, and running him over again. That's what I talk to him about"

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