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KC: Boylen Believes He's Forming Strong Relationship With New Regime

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Re: KC: Boylen Believes He's Forming Strong Relationship With New Regime 

Post#161 » by MGB8 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:29 pm

AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:My guess? Ownership had every intention of letting AK pick a coach. They advocated for Boylen, but the ultimate decision would’ve been his. But once they understood the financial implications of COVID for 2020-21, AK lost ‘full autonomy’. And he’s playing ball because, what else is he going to do? He’s already in the job, and his new owners are citing > $100M losses. It’s a tough fight to pick (let alone win) four months into the job.

Unless a big change in the underlying circumstances compels the Reinsdorf’s to invest in 2020-21 - e.g. we get the #1 pick or a player demands a trade - my guess is AK will capitulate and we get another year of Boylen.


Sadly, I think you are 100% correct.
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Re: KC: Boylen Believes He's Forming Strong Relationship With New Regime 

Post#162 » by Michael Jackson » Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:38 pm

AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:My guess? Ownership had every intention of letting AK pick a coach. They advocated for Boylen, but the ultimate decision would’ve been his. But once they understood the financial implications of COVID for 2020-21, AK lost ‘full autonomy’. And he’s playing ball because, what else is he going to do? He’s already in the position, and his new owners are citing > $100M losses. It’s a tough fight to pick (let alone win) four months into the job.

Unless a big change in the underlying circumstances compels the Reinsdorf’s to invest in 2020-21 - e.g. we get the #1 pick or a player demands a trade - my guess is AK will capitulate and we get another year of Boylen.



Don’t buy that though. Reinsdorf is all about ROI and honestly a coach is one of the best ROI in this situation. I know people who work in the tickets office, they are hurting. A new coach absolutely puts more butts in the seats than Felicio does and has a lower cost. Even the highest paid coach is less than Felicio makes. No matter what coach you pay it instantly increases team interest and ticket sales. The dip in team interest is why we got a new FO. The FO cost more than a coach. In fact everything pretty much costs more than a coach and has way less return of investment as far as ticket sales than a coach. I think we can all agree that JR first priority isn’t basketball but profits and keeping Boylen which is a minimal expense effects profits greatly. They will replace him because they make more money by doing that. They may not become a better team but a new coach helps the bottom line.
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Re: KC: Boylen Believes He's Forming Strong Relationship With New Regime 

Post#163 » by dougthonus » Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:18 pm

MGB8 wrote:Doug,

Do you really believe that if the Bulls magically got, say, a Brad Stevens, that they wouldn't be significantly more successful as a team than under Boylen - a guy who not only has x's and o's but also player-relationship deficiencies?

I look at what coaches like Stevens can accomplish with his various rosters... or Nurse with his current cast (a good but not elite veteran point guard, a good but not elite young point guard, one of the top 4's in the league, rotation level talent at the wings, and two past-their-primes but still-solid 5's)... or Stotts on the Blazers with Lillard, McCullom and not much else for the past few years, or even the difference Thibs made on the Bulls and even the Wolves...

Granted, the chances of the Bulls hiring a coach who is that high a caliber is probably unlikely. It's not clear that Atkinson is that level of coach given his past experiences, something that was hotly debated a few months back (and also noting that coaches can get better in different spots, see Belicheck in Cleveland vs. New England). Who knows if Griffen or Udoka would be that level...

But one thing I can tell you is that Boylen is a "minus" coach, at least in my estimation. He's costing the team both wins and development. And the sooner you move on from a net negative at that position, the better - at least IMO.


I think if you could transport any coach in the world onto the Bulls roster last season that it would have made less than a five game difference. I think given that there isn't a single elite coach that you will be able to sign this off-season and literally every candidate is either a guy with no experience or a guy whom has had a mixed bag of results, I think the most likely scenario is that you will get a replacement value coach like Boylen and make no practical difference. I think probably at any given time, more or less half the coaches in the league are replacement level, it just isn't obvious due to differences in talent and situation.

As I said, I would replace Boylen. I agree that we can be highly confident he's bad and also appears to have a bad relationship with the players. However, I do not expect replacing him to yield much in the way of results. Hence, me saying, I don't think it will make much difference. The problems are deeper and talent/injury related.
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Re: KC: Boylen Believes He's Forming Strong Relationship With New Regime 

Post#164 » by BungalowBill » Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:25 pm

Meanwhile, the Knicks just hired Thibs. Doesn’t seem like they are too worried about needing to go cheap.

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Re: KC: Boylen Believes He's Forming Strong Relationship With New Regime 

Post#165 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:19 pm

Michael Jackson wrote:
AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:My guess? Ownership had every intention of letting AK pick a coach. They advocated for Boylen, but the ultimate decision would’ve been his. But once they understood the financial implications of COVID for 2020-21, AK lost ‘full autonomy’. And he’s playing ball because, what else is he going to do? He’s already in the position, and his new owners are citing > $100M losses. It’s a tough fight to pick (let alone win) four months into the job.

Unless a big change in the underlying circumstances compels the Reinsdorf’s to invest in 2020-21 - e.g. we get the #1 pick or a player demands a trade - my guess is AK will capitulate and we get another year of Boylen.



Don’t buy that though. Reinsdorf is all about ROI and honestly a coach is one of the best ROI in this situation. I know people who work in the tickets office, they are hurting. A new coach absolutely puts more butts in the seats than Felicio does and has a lower cost. Even the highest paid coach is less than Felicio makes. No matter what coach you pay it instantly increases team interest and ticket sales. The dip in team interest is why we got a new FO. The FO cost more than a coach. In fact everything pretty much costs more than a coach and has way less return of investment as far as ticket sales than a coach. I think we can all agree that JR first priority isn’t basketball but profits and keeping Boylen which is a minimal expense effects profits greatly. They will replace him because they make more money by doing that. They may not become a better team but a new coach helps the bottom line.



The problem is nobody knows whether ‘butts in the seats’ will be possible for 2020-21. It’s safe to assume games will be fan-less through the calendar year. And if we get a second COVID wave this winter, which is very likely, we could easily see empty arenas for the rest of the season.

While I’d agree that the long-term fan interest is where the team’s heads should be at, it wouldn’t be the first time the Bulls tried to thread the needle between propping up the brand and keeping costs manageable.
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Re: KC: Boylen Believes He's Forming Strong Relationship With New Regime 

Post#166 » by dougthonus » Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:57 pm

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Moving this from the 2nd bubble thread. I think this may be part of the hold up on Boylen. If there is a second bubble, even if its just for group practices and no scrimmages, then AK/ME may want to see Boylen coach and see how the practices go to get some real feel for things.

Knowing that it's a good possibility they'll have this opportunity may be the primary hold up on making a decision on Boylen, they simply know they'll get some in person and practical information at this time. It may also then soothe Michael Reinsdorf's (or whomever is high on him) desire to have a real look at Boylen before a decision is made.
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Re: KC: Boylen Believes He's Forming Strong Relationship With New Regime 

Post#167 » by donaldtrump_00 » Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:03 pm

Winning changes everything. I remember when boylen first took over that's when the committee issue arose. Then weeks later we started winning. Everyone was happy. Despite missing the playoffs last season Zach still praised Jim Boylen and said he supports him and welcomed him back to coach the team. Even offered to pay a fine or something for him.

Where does everyone get the hatred between the two. Sure players and coaches bud heads all the time. This season Zach got frustrated with the trust issues. And the bad time outs.. That all can be changed with wins. I don't think Boylen is a bad or good coach. Just he's not used to being the head coach and it's showing in his actions.

Markkanen had a great first game vs the Hornets. He's been hurt. How's he angry when he wasn't able to stay healthy. I'm sure the system wasn't featuring him as the best option because he was playing behind the 3pt line the entire time. But most players go at the coach in practices telling how there misused and want a few more touches. He went with the flow. So he's no better then Boylen.

Injuries always kill this team each year. Lauri, Porter, Wendel, Hutchinson, Dunn, Kornet when he was playing well. Even gafford. Zach got hurt toward the end. Which lead to Coby stepping up. Seems like we nit pick on things without saying the full story. We clearly had another injury hit season. Can't throw that all on Boylen.

I'm sure if Otto Porter played the entire time and a healthy version of him because he wasn't himself beginning of the season. He definitely was playing hurt. And Lauri played with pain most of the season. Wendell can't stay on the floor either. And Dunn. Sure the new system sucked. But did we see a change towards the end. We saw more mid range shots. Thad doing his thing more often. So it's not like there weren't adjustments made.

I just get tired of the blame game. We sucked because we were hurt. We tried a new system. It went haywire to start the year. Inexperienced head coach. New role. Players being soft. Zach figured it out because he's a baller. Maybe Boylen s system exposed the weak players who need to go. Whether we bring in a new coach or not. We have a few weak minded players. There's going to be adjustments made. I don't also like that players want to be used a certain way but can't figure out a different role only temporary. If it's not working it's no good. But we saw offensive production so limited its alarming. So we know that system won't work again next season.
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Re: KC: Boylen Believes He's Forming Strong Relationship With New Regime 

Post#168 » by Michael Jackson » Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:35 pm

AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:
AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:My guess? Ownership had every intention of letting AK pick a coach. They advocated for Boylen, but the ultimate decision would’ve been his. But once they understood the financial implications of COVID for 2020-21, AK lost ‘full autonomy’. And he’s playing ball because, what else is he going to do? He’s already in the position, and his new owners are citing > $100M losses. It’s a tough fight to pick (let alone win) four months into the job.

Unless a big change in the underlying circumstances compels the Reinsdorf’s to invest in 2020-21 - e.g. we get the #1 pick or a player demands a trade - my guess is AK will capitulate and we get another year of Boylen.



Don’t buy that though. Reinsdorf is all about ROI and honestly a coach is one of the best ROI in this situation. I know people who work in the tickets office, they are hurting. A new coach absolutely puts more butts in the seats than Felicio does and has a lower cost. Even the highest paid coach is less than Felicio makes. No matter what coach you pay it instantly increases team interest and ticket sales. The dip in team interest is why we got a new FO. The FO cost more than a coach. In fact everything pretty much costs more than a coach and has way less return of investment as far as ticket sales than a coach. I think we can all agree that JR first priority isn’t basketball but profits and keeping Boylen which is a minimal expense effects profits greatly. They will replace him because they make more money by doing that. They may not become a better team but a new coach helps the bottom line.



The problem is nobody knows whether ‘butts in the seats’ will be possible for 2020-21. It’s safe to assume games will be fan-less through the calendar year. And if we get a second COVID wave this winter, which is very likely, we could easily see empty arenas for the rest of the season.

While I’d agree that the long-term fan interest is where the team’s heads should be at, it wouldn’t be the first time the Bulls tried to thread the needle between propping up the brand and keeping costs manageable.



It is really less about actual attendance. Butts in the seat is a nice antiquated phrase used. The actual value of a guy like LaVine is jersey sales and other merch, national interviews (ASG, The Lowe Show) and television revenue. They literally have no one else who can do those things and the fact Zach is a great value contract I just can’t seeing him being let go. I think we are arguing the same thing here, that a Jerry is going to be ultra conservative, and keeping zach is the best bet they have to prop up the brand. Literally trading him you are likely to be out more $$$ because he is on a value contract and way less return in any kind of sales. Zach sells better than Harrison Barnes.
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Re: KC: Boylen Believes He's Forming Strong Relationship With New Regime 

Post#169 » by dougthonus » Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:55 pm

Michael Jackson wrote:It is really less about actual attendance. Butts in the seat is a nice antiquated phrase used. The actual value of a guy like LaVine is jersey sales and other merch, national interviews (ASG, The Lowe Show) and television revenue. They literally have no one else who can do those things and the fact Zach is a great value contract I just can’t seeing him being let go. I think we are arguing the same thing here, that a Jerry is going to be ultra conservative, and keeping zach is the best bet they have to prop up the brand. Literally trading him you are likely to be out more $$$ because he is on a value contract and way less return in any kind of sales. Zach sells better than Harrison Barnes.


Merchandise isn't a huge mover for teams if they aren't selling it out of stores they own (which are typically only the ones in the stadium). They do get some cut, but the league gets a cut, the manufacturer gets a cut, and the retailer gets a cut.

Butts in seats literally is the biggest single factor for the league in terms of revenue. They estimated about a 40% loss of revenue if fans can't attend games. So while those things you mentioned matter, they don't matter anywhere nearly as much as getting butts in seats.

Also, individual player stuff matters very little in comparison. You are only getting a decent chunk on jersey sales and other merch at your own retail stores in the stadiums. Otherwise, the team gets a small cut, but its small. The retailer, manufacturer, and league all take a larger cut of that money. National interviews don't generate any revenue for the team, and television revenue is set by contracts that operate over years and are based on ratings which are based on team quality which the Bulls don't have with or without LaVine.

LaVine isn't making the Bulls any money in particular. Winning is what will bring them more money. Now maybe keeping LaVine is also the best way to impact winning or maybe trading him is. That would depend on what you get back and what you think of LaVine, but LaVine himself isn't going to move the needle.
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Re: KC: Boylen Believes He's Forming Strong Relationship With New Regime 

Post#170 » by chitownsalesmen » Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:08 pm

MikeDC wrote:
BigUps wrote:I know there's smoke and where there is smoke there is typically a fire, but I just can't see how they keep Boylen. I feel like this is a story created because of the lull in action. There's no reason to fire Boylen at this moment, but once the season is actually over there will be.

I can't see him being around next year as the head coach. The damage he's done is evident. His presence will do nothing but remind people of the GarPax regime and I have to assume AK and team have someone in their minds as the future coach, but just aren't going to announce it until after seasons end.

With that said, I do appreciate that AK is giving Boylen a chance. To me, thats good leadership. Don't come in and assume everything is broken before assessing the situation. I have respect for that.


I'm not trying to pick on you specifically, but this kind of opinion is what's largely responsible for the decline of Western Civilization.

As a society and a culture, we've gotten to the point where we often unconsciously and instinctively want to go away from the overwhelming majority of the evidence and cling to the possibility of an exception.

This kind of stuff is subtle, but as someone with an academic background, I know this is present even in things like basic research. Instead of looking at what's true 99% of the time, we twist and turn the data to find the 1% of exceptions and then, ridiculously, spend 99% of our time and energy on this 1%. Like, to give an example, the whole stupid thing about wearing masks with COVID. Nobody really bothered studying whether wearing masks was effective, because it was so obvious. So when we suddenly needed to wear masks, there really wasn't a lot of research to draw on, and what was there was kind of goofy stuff about how in some obscure unlikely scenario, wearing a mask could be counterproductive.

And thus... the situation has evolved to the utter societal stupidity we see around us.

The point is, we are too often too clever by half. Too afraid to be right. Too willing to put our trust in the 1 doctor who disagrees instead of the 99 who agree.

This is present in every level of society, and it's even present in how we think about goofy things like Sports. And Boylen.

Have the courage of your convictions. It's not good leadership to waste time and energy considering the (in this case much less than) 1% chance when 99% of the evidence says the guy is a terrible coach.

All those places around the world that still take life seriously and have their **** together? Germany China, Korea, etc? They don't think this way. The understand that, sure, there are exceptions to rules, and you should be aware of that possibility, but usually the rule is the rule and not the exception. They have the confidence and the common sense to act.

We, as a society, are seriously lacking in that.



LOL a new GM of a pro-sports team not immediately firing the head coach is wants wrong with western society.

Holly heck the craziness of politics/covid/rioting is really reeking havoc on peoples minds.
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Re: KC: Boylen Believes He's Forming Strong Relationship With New Regime 

Post#171 » by BigUps » Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:19 pm

MikeDC wrote:
BigUps wrote:I know there's smoke and where there is smoke there is typically a fire, but I just can't see how they keep Boylen. I feel like this is a story created because of the lull in action. There's no reason to fire Boylen at this moment, but once the season is actually over there will be.

I can't see him being around next year as the head coach. The damage he's done is evident. His presence will do nothing but remind people of the GarPax regime and I have to assume AK and team have someone in their minds as the future coach, but just aren't going to announce it until after seasons end.

With that said, I do appreciate that AK is giving Boylen a chance. To me, thats good leadership. Don't come in and assume everything is broken before assessing the situation. I have respect for that.


I'm not trying to pick on you specifically, but this kind of opinion is what's largely responsible for the decline of Western Civilization.

As a society and a culture, we've gotten to the point where we often unconsciously and instinctively want to go away from the overwhelming majority of the evidence and cling to the possibility of an exception.

This kind of stuff is subtle, but as someone with an academic background, I know this is present even in things like basic research. Instead of looking at what's true 99% of the time, we twist and turn the data to find the 1% of exceptions and then, ridiculously, spend 99% of our time and energy on this 1%. Like, to give an example, the whole stupid thing about wearing masks with COVID. Nobody really bothered studying whether wearing masks was effective, because it was so obvious. So when we suddenly needed to wear masks, there really wasn't a lot of research to draw on, and what was there was kind of goofy stuff about how in some obscure unlikely scenario, wearing a mask could be counterproductive.

And thus... the situation has evolved to the utter societal stupidity we see around us.

The point is, we are too often too clever by half. Too afraid to be right. Too willing to put our trust in the 1 doctor who disagrees instead of the 99 who agree.

This is present in every level of society, and it's even present in how we think about goofy things like Sports. And Boylen.

Have the courage of your convictions. It's not good leadership to waste time and energy considering the (in this case much less than) 1% chance when 99% of the evidence says the guy is a terrible coach.

All those places around the world that still take life seriously and have their **** together? Germany China, Korea, etc? They don't think this way. The understand that, sure, there are exceptions to rules, and you should be aware of that possibility, but usually the rule is the rule and not the exception. They have the confidence and the common sense to act.

We, as a society, are seriously lacking in that.


That escalated quickly.

I get what you're saying, but we're talking about a head coach of a basketball team. Lets keep it at the right level here and not extrapolate it into a massive societal issue. They aren't even remotely the same thing.
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Re: KC: Boylen Believes He's Forming Strong Relationship With New Regime 

Post#172 » by MikeDC » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:01 pm

LOL, it didn’t really escalate, it was a little bit tongue in cheek. Not completely, because I explicitly said that replacing a basketball coach is trivial and big societal issues are serious, so I don’t disagree about that.

What I’m saying is that the same sort of poor reasoning is present in big issues and small ones. We ignore mountains of evidence to seize upon more comfortable anecdotes.

The issues aren’t the same, but the basic refusal to evaluate evidence is the same.
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Re: KC: Boylen Believes He's Forming Strong Relationship With New Regime 

Post#173 » by SfBull » Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:49 pm

I won't be surprised with the Bulls eventually keeping Boylen,the new FO will likely opt for evaluating Boylen's work along the next season which is probably the safe way to go as they're beginning their tenure.
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Re: KC: Boylen Believes He's Forming Strong Relationship With New Regime 

Post#174 » by BigUps » Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:40 pm

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Re: KC: Boylen Believes He's Forming Strong Relationship With New Regime 

Post#175 » by Grodoboldo » Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:12 pm

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I remember liking McGraw's writing back at Thib's era. The guy now is just another Boylen/management cronie.
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Re: KC: Boylen Believes He's Forming Strong Relationship With New Regime 

Post#176 » by MikeDC » Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:13 pm

At this point, these guys are all basically squandering time. They could be working, could be building and moving forward, but they’re screwing around with guys who shouldn’t even be here.
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Re: KC: Boylen Believes He's Forming Strong Relationship With New Regime 

Post#177 » by FriedRise » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:46 pm

This is awesome :lol:

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Re: KC: Boylen Believes He's Forming Strong Relationship With New Regime 

Post#178 » by Leslie Forman » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:17 pm

chitownsalesmen wrote:
LOL a new GM of a pro-sports team not immediately firing the head coach is wants wrong with western society.

Holly heck the craziness of politics/covid/rioting is really reeking havoc on peoples minds.

Don't you know? Calling unnecessary time outs at the end of games are against the Geneva Conventions. Literal war crimes.
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Re: KC: Boylen Believes He's Forming Strong Relationship With New Regime 

Post#179 » by kodo » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:44 pm

MikeDC wrote:At this point, these guys are all basically squandering time. They could be working, could be building and moving forward, but they’re screwing around with guys who shouldn’t even be here.


Do we have a Boylen replacement with any kind of proven track record? Because Udoka and Griffin, the guys most likely to replace Boylen, don't have any better resumes than Boylen did when we hired him. Boylen's was actually better since he actually led the Spurs defense to a title.

I'm not feeling the sense of urgency because there is no logical reason to believe Boylen's replacement will be any better than Boylen or Hoiberg or VDN or any of the other Bulls gambles on untested first time HC's. It's not just a Chicago thing either, Dave Fizdale had an excellent reputation around the league as associate Head Coach of the Miami Heat. He was considered as sure fire a quality HC candidate as you can get and had direct support from Lebron. He ended up being a disaster.

We're just going to be gambling again with the HC position, and even if it's a great potential new HC hire, he'll go through rookie hell. Even Pops and Brad Stevens had horrible first seasons.

Things aren't going to be turning around soon in Chicago even if AK is a genius.
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Re: KC: Boylen Believes He's Forming Strong Relationship With New Regime 

Post#180 » by StunnerKO » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:56 pm

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