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Clean House?

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Loclown
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Clean House? 

Post#1 » by Loclown » Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:47 am

Do you think the new regime will sweep out under performing youngsters before their value decreases more? I've seen talk of moving vets, but I'd be ok w moving Lauri or Carter too. I feel they won't become stars and might be able to bring back proven quality now.
Who else thinks they could draft better than all Chicago teams?
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Re: Clean House? 

Post#2 » by dougthonus » Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:54 am

Loclown wrote:Do you think the new regime will sweep out under performing youngsters before their value decreases more? I've seen talk of moving vets, but I'd be ok w moving Lauri or Carter too. I feel they won't become stars and might be able to bring back proven quality now.


People expect way too much in terms of trades as a general rule.

If you trade Lauri/Carter, the odds are you're likely to get back the same value they hold presently, maybe in a slightly different form (someone younger, but worse presently and high risk (to improve (like say a 20s 1st rounder) or someone older who's slightly better but has no ceiling left or someone who's better with a bad contract.

I mean typically trades are paramutual in value at the time, where the teams are giving up similar types of value, and you hope something changes for you after the trade that makes it work for you. The exceptions are when guys force teams to trade them and have high leverage.

From a practical sense, it means if you trade these guys, you won't get much. I agree, I don't believe in the ceiling of either, but I'm not likely to get back a player I do believe in by trading one of them either.
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Re: Clean House? 

Post#3 » by Loclown » Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:25 am

My only hope would be sending multiple young guys for one prime age guy who wants off a bad team. You can't win wo stars, so I'd always try to get one and then build around them.
Who else thinks they could draft better than all Chicago teams?
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Re: Clean House? 

Post#4 » by Showtime23 » Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:27 am

they will consider as long as they get face value in a trade deal from Lavine to Lauri to Carter.
Due to covid, I could see Lavine being shipped since JR doesnt want to pay him big money and OPJ as well.
Lauri will be another trade target since JR doesnt want to pay 20mil per yr as well as Carter who is very injury prone.
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Re: Clean House? 

Post#5 » by MadGrinch » Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:22 am

Most GM's of losing teams clean house within the 1st year.
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Re: Clean House? 

Post#6 » by wonderboy2 » Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:28 am

First player that needs to go is Sato. Dude is taking up 10 million of the bulls cap. You can get a vet min player that has more of in impact. One of the bulls worst free agent signing in a while.
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Re: Clean House? 

Post#7 » by Axolotl » Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:51 am

I'm not a fan of sideways moves, so I think they shouldn't trade players just to have other players, but to have a better team.

As this is the logic on the other side of the trade too, the other team would need to value the Bulls' player higher than the Bulls do, or vice versa, or both.

At the moment probably the only player on the Bulls' roster with a trade value of any significance is LaVine. All the others have such major ifs and buts that I can't imagine them having all that much value.

"We need to trade player X!" Yeah, maybe, but with whom and to what?
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Re: Clean House? 

Post#8 » by Repeat 3-peat » Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:12 am

It wouldn't shock me if LaVine is in the trade rumor mill near draft time. I'm not sure they re-sign him, unless he breaks out as a superstar. So if the new front office do not see him here long term it's best to get full value during the off season than waiting until he's a rental in 2021, or simply letting him walk.

If the Nets can't acquire Beal, I can see them calling about Zach.
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Re: Clean House? 

Post#9 » by Michael Jackson » Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:27 am

LaVine is a cash cow right now though. He is the only player selling jerseys, he is cheap and he is somewhat marketable. Only guy able to get people in the seats. Have a hard time seeing them trading him just because he is as close to a profit center as this team has. Lauri or White would have to break out for them to move Zach or they would have to get a money maker in return.
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Re: Clean House? 

Post#10 » by dougthonus » Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:53 am

wonderboy2 wrote:First player that needs to go is Sato. Dude is taking up 10 million of the bulls cap. You can get a vet min player that has more of in impact. One of the bulls worst free agent signing in a while.


Sato is better than a vet min player and 10M isn't that big a cap hit. Also worth noting that you won't be able to trade anyone into cap space, so you won't save any money this year regardless, and in the following year, he has only five million guaranteed, so that is the most you could save is 5M in two years if you trade him for an expiring this year. That's a really small cap problem even if he was totally worthless.

So I don't think Sato needs to stay, but he isn't really a problem. Of course the Bulls roster is generally full of guys like this. There's no contracts that are that bad. It's just that they're mostly rookie contracts that will be due extensions and pedestrian vets making pedestrian amounts of money. The worst deal left is probably Thad Young's deal, but it also is also only guaranteed for 6M in the final season and only has two years left, which means it isn't too bad either.

Even Felicio is expiring this year, so while he's 8M of dead cap room, this is the last year you put up with it same with Porter Jr whom might be a good player if he could string together 20 healthy games, but he hasn't done that for awhile now and will certainly opt in with the pandemic going on.

The good news for the Bulls is there are no anchors weighing them down contract wise in the long run, the bad news is there's no hot air balloons raising them up either.
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Re: Clean House? 

Post#11 » by ChettheJet » Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:54 pm

What's the point of trading young guys who, for reasons from lack of focus to injury, haven't blossomed into what was expected on draft night? Face it way more than half of the picks never measure up to the expectations that teams, scouts, experts, fans and pencil neck bloggers imagine. Young players might finally 'Get it" and become contributing players. I'm for trading the veterans who aren't part of the future here and aren't going to be any more than they are now. Trade guys like that early rather than hang onto them until it's too late

I haven't seen many trade suggestions for Lauri that do anything but send the Bulls some slightly older, more highly paid guy that never reached his supposed potential. The people who come up with Carter trades almost always seem to think Al Horford with a long huge contract or Rudy Gobert with a huge expiring deal are some kind of solution for the Bulls. That ain't smart thinking for the Bulls.

When people put up Lavine trades they seem to see him as this great 6th man for some contending team so they suggest trades that send the Bulls a bunch of scrubs, a late FRP and some future seconds because they think that's what a 6th man is worth. But that ignores that the Bulls are trading away their #1 player and scorer and the scraps suggested are nothing but a direct path to the top of the lottery for 2/3 years.

I don't see why people think trading Satoransky is worth the trouble. He only costs you $10M next year and then his third year isn't guaranteed. You need some backup guards he's at least reliable for $10M and easily cut so why go shopping for somebody perfect that doesn't exist.

I think the trade priorities should be Porter to a contender for a couple of younger players that a team doesn't think have worked out. If they are going to pay Markkanen and decide on extending him or not then trade Thad Young for some younger less expensive players. Find out is anybody will trade anything for Dunn and Valentine. Why bother giving them their qualifying offer if you know what they can and can't do and they aren't going to come back in 2021 Try to get something different. Get another SF to compete with Hutchison and keep one, both or none after 2021. Find a shooting SG to get minutes behind Lavine, take a chance on some passing or a scoring PG behind White. Get in as the third team to move a large contract and hold somebody up for an extra FRP maybe in a year or two.
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Re: Clean House? 

Post#12 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:56 pm

ChettheJet wrote:What's the point of trading young guys who, for reasons from lack of focus to injury, haven't blossomed into what was expected on draft night? Face it way more than half of the picks never measure up to the expectations that teams, scouts, experts, fans and pencil neck bloggers imagine. Young players might finally 'Get it" and become contributing players. I'm for trading the veterans who aren't part of the future here and aren't going to be any more than they are now. Trade guys like that early rather than hang onto them until it's too late

I haven't seen many trade suggestions for Lauri that do anything but send the Bulls some slightly older, more highly paid guy that never reached his supposed potential. The people who come up with Carter trades almost always seem to think Al Horford with a long huge contract or Rudy Gobert with a huge expiring deal are some kind of solution for the Bulls. That ain't smart thinking for the Bulls.

When people put up Lavine trades they seem to see him as this great 6th man for some contending team so they suggest trades that send the Bulls a bunch of scrubs, a late FRP and some future seconds because they think that's what a 6th man is worth. But that ignores that the Bulls are trading away their #1 player and scorer and the scraps suggested are nothing but a direct path to the top of the lottery for 2/3 years.

I don't see why people think trading Satoransky is worth the trouble. He only costs you $10M next year and then his third year isn't guaranteed. You need some backup guards he's at least reliable for $10M and easily cut so why go shopping for somebody perfect that doesn't exist.

I think the trade priorities should be Porter to a contender for a couple of younger players that a team doesn't think have worked out. If they are going to pay Markkanen and decide on extending him or not then trade Thad Young for some younger less expensive players. Find out is anybody will trade anything for Dunn and Valentine. Why bother giving them their qualifying offer if you know what they can and can't do and they aren't going to come back in 2021 Try to get something different. Get another SF to compete with Hutchison and keep one, both or none after 2021. Find a shooting SG to get minutes behind Lavine, take a chance on some passing or a scoring PG behind White. Get in as the third team to move a large contract and hold somebody up for an extra FRP maybe in a year or two.

Trading our young guys for established talent would be stupid.

Swapping them for draft picks or different young guys could work out for us though.
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Re: Clean House? 

Post#13 » by MrSparkle » Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:56 pm

You can trade your chickens for eggs but in general, trades are largely lateral moves. You want something good, you have to pay a price. But in general, you're shuffling problems with other teams, which is ideally a proactive solution for both sides. But you can't expect to send out your struggling young talent and get playoff starters in return.

I guess the absurdities of this prior FO were that they refused to make any lateral moves when we had log-jams, and then when they had a fringe superstar on a bargain contract (2 years guaranteed remaining), they gave him up for 3 very "available" assets (a 1-way chucker with an ACL tear, a bust PG who couldn't shoot, and an intriguing Fin who was on no one's radar, who was the 3rd stretch-PF on a roster which just resigned a young struggling Niko to a bargain contract).

Right now, the absurdity is that we have 7 guards and exactly zero can defend tall wings. The second absurdity is we have 4 big centers at the most negligible position in the league (that said, several contenders do need centers, such as HOU, DAL and BOS.. including GSW when they are back in the mix). The third absurdity is our 2 PFs are the 2 best big men, equal in talent and impact, but you can't play them together even in spot-minutes.

So 1-2 small adjustment trades must be made to resolve these log-jams. I hope AK/Mark can show their effectiveness by starting with this. They don't have to make ESPN headlines, they just need to fix the depth chart.

You can't clean house when your roster's average age is 23, and the longest contract expires in 2 years. :lol: The house was already cleaned, my friend.
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Re: Clean House? 

Post#14 » by pipfan » Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:31 pm

I think you could consider trading Lavine, if we jumped in the draft and got Edwards (or Ball, but I don't like his game so much).

I would keep Lauri-he's young and has a ton of upside. Carter, White and Gafford too. I'd keep Hutch, because he's not worth anything, but still has talent.

Best bet is we take the BPA at #7, keep our core and fight for the 8th seed with a better coach and health.
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Re: Clean House? 

Post#15 » by dougthonus » Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:44 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:Trading our young guys for established talent would be stupid.

Swapping them for draft picks or different young guys could work out for us though.


Either of those things could theoretically work out for you. Though I agree that I generally wouldn't be excited to trade for pedestrian developed talent which is likely what you would get for our young guys since none have great value.

Swapping for different young guys might also work, but you're likely going to have one of a few scenarios:
1: You're trading for picks, and won't get good picks, since our young guys don't look like stars and the ones we'd look to move most will have fewer cheap years left. Like maybe picks in the 15-25 range which mostly yield non starting rotation players and occasionally give you gold.

2: You're trading for different young guys with as many problems as yours but similar contract situations. This is usually just a hope that a reboot in environment will improve the guy you get, maybe one side wins, both sides win, or both sides lose in this situation. Of these situations, it depends who you are comparing to, but I think our young guys have good chances for pretty good sized improvements. Wendell has never stayed healthy while Lauri had a big regression year and was also banged up. I don't know who the target would be in this trade, so it's hard to say if its good or bad, but I'd really hope to get someone back that also has good room to potentially be better if they're entering their 3rd or 4th year.
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Re: Clean House? 

Post#16 » by TeamMan » Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:00 pm

There have been quotes coming from the new FO that they are very happy with the core that Gar/Pax have built.

IMO that basically has two meanings:

1) The players on the team have a high trade value.
2) They would be happy to just stand pat and develop the talent that we have.

Also IMO which direction they go in will be determined by the lotto.

If they luck into a top-3 pick, then they can just sit and wait for the offers to come to them.

If they fall out of the top 3, then they will look for a trade.

However, in any case, there will be no house cleaning.
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Re: Clean House? 

Post#17 » by MadGrinch » Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:00 pm

TeamMan wrote:There have been quotes coming from the new FO that they are very happy with the core that Gar/Pax have built.

IMO that basically has two meanings:

1) The players on the team have a high trade value.
2) They would be happy to just stand pat and develop the talent that we have.

Also IMO which direction they go in will be determined by the lotto.

If they luck into a top-3 pick, then they can just sit and wait for the offers to come to them.

If they fall out of the top 3, then they will look for a trade.

However, in any case, there will be no house cleaning.



or they are smart enough to try to boost the trade value of their assets.

no one is going to want to give you much if they think you don't believe in their value
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Re: Clean House? 

Post#18 » by sco » Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:36 pm

MadGrinch wrote:
TeamMan wrote:There have been quotes coming from the new FO that they are very happy with the core that Gar/Pax have built.

IMO that basically has two meanings:

1) The players on the team have a high trade value.
2) They would be happy to just stand pat and develop the talent that we have.

Also IMO which direction they go in will be determined by the lotto.

If they luck into a top-3 pick, then they can just sit and wait for the offers to come to them.

If they fall out of the top 3, then they will look for a trade.

However, in any case, there will be no house cleaning.



or they are smart enough to try to boost the trade value of their assets.

no one is going to want to give you much if they think you don't believe in their value

If I were them, I would largely stay put to assess what they have talent-wise. The only core guy who has shown consistency in what he is, is Zach. While he isn't good enough to build a contender around, he's young enough to keep as a core piece - barring a trade opportunity for a guy they think is that centerpiece guy (which is unlikely).

Otto is likely here next season, and if he can play healthy and consistently, he may have value at the deadline.

Lauri has shown enough to warrant a closer look next season. Given his injuries and inconsistency, his trade value, IMO, is less than his option value to give him another shot.

WCJ, Coby, Hutch and Gafford all fall into the bucket of young guys who have shown flashes of very good NBA play, mixed with inconsistency that is expected from rookies/2nd year guys who have been injured for long stretches. They have all demonstrated a work ethic and professionalism.

We'll have our 1st rounder to sort out, too.

That's a lot to sort out for the new FO. Best case scenario is that one guy takes a big step forward and a couple others show they are capable starting talent next season.
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Re: Clean House? 

Post#19 » by wonderboy2 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:32 am

dougthonus wrote:
wonderboy2 wrote:First player that needs to go is Sato. Dude is taking up 10 million of the bulls cap. You can get a vet min player that has more of in impact. One of the bulls worst free agent signing in a while.


Sato is better than a vet min player and 10M isn't that big a cap hit. Also worth noting that you won't be able to trade anyone into cap space, so you won't save any money this year regardless, and in the following year, he has only five million guaranteed, so that is the most you could save is 5M in two years if you trade him for an expiring this year. That's a really small cap problem even if he was totally worthless.

So I don't think Sato needs to stay, but he isn't really a problem. Of course the Bulls roster is generally full of guys like this. There's no contracts that are that bad. It's just that they're mostly rookie contracts that will be due extensions and pedestrian vets making pedestrian amounts of money. The worst deal left is probably Thad Young's deal, but it also is also only guaranteed for 6M in the final season and only has two years left, which means it isn't too bad either.

Even Felicio is expiring this year, so while he's 8M of dead cap room, this is the last year you put up with it same with Porter Jr whom might be a good player if he could string together 20 healthy games, but he hasn't done that for awhile now and will certainly opt in with the pandemic going on.

The good news for the Bulls is there are no anchors weighing them down contract wise in the long run, the bad news is there's no hot air balloons raising them up either.

Sato sucks as I can list plenty of vet min players better then him. Tell me something he does well. He not a great passer, can’t defend for ****, scared to shoot, when open can’t knock down open 3s consistently this year. Can’t break his man down off the dribble. Dude sucks. Only board that likes him is realgm bulls and that’s because of the strong Euro connection on here. Literally every where else Fans would say that Sato sucks ass.
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Re: Clean House? 

Post#20 » by MadGrinch » Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:51 pm

sco wrote:
MadGrinch wrote:
TeamMan wrote:There have been quotes coming from the new FO that they are very happy with the core that Gar/Pax have built.

IMO that basically has two meanings:

1) The players on the team have a high trade value.
2) They would be happy to just stand pat and develop the talent that we have.

Also IMO which direction they go in will be determined by the lotto.

If they luck into a top-3 pick, then they can just sit and wait for the offers to come to them.

If they fall out of the top 3, then they will look for a trade.

However, in any case, there will be no house cleaning.



or they are smart enough to try to boost the trade value of their assets.

no one is going to want to give you much if they think you don't believe in their value

If I were them, I would largely stay put to assess what they have talent-wise. The only core guy who has shown consistency in what he is, is Zach. While he isn't good enough to build a contender around, he's young enough to keep as a core piece - barring a trade opportunity for a guy they think is that centerpiece guy (which is unlikely).

Otto is likely here next season, and if he can play healthy and consistently, he may have value at the deadline.

Lauri has shown enough to warrant a closer look next season. Given his injuries and inconsistency, his trade value, IMO, is less than his option value to give him another shot.

WCJ, Coby, Hutch and Gafford all fall into the bucket of young guys who have shown flashes of very good NBA play, mixed with inconsistency that is expected from rookies/2nd year guys who have been injured for long stretches. They have all demonstrated a work ethic and professionalism.

We'll have our 1st rounder to sort out, too.

That's a lot to sort out for the new FO. Best case scenario is that one guy takes a big step forward and a couple others show they are capable starting talent next season.


all that may be true ...but new regimes of losing franchises almost always clean house .

there are exceptions to the rule of course but that doesn't appear to be the case here .
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