Image ImageImage Image

Knicks/Nets Looking At Lavine

Moderators: HomoSapien, kulaz3000, fleet, RedBulls23, Ice Man, AshyLarrysDiaper, Tommy Udo 6 , GimmeDat, dougthonus, Payt10, DASMACKDOWN

RastaBull
Analyst
Posts: 3,622
And1: 1,566
Joined: Jul 16, 2010
         

Re: Knicks/Nets Looking At Lavine 

Post#141 » by RastaBull » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:24 pm

chefo wrote:
The problem is not with him, per say... it's how the Bulls have decided to use him and I stand by that old statement. His one biggest weakness is that he does not see the game well, neither on O, nor on D. That's why he can't anticipate what's about to happen, nor see the triple team in the lane when he drives. That's why he does not rotate well on D, or at all many times.

But, he is an insanely talented scorer, if put in the right spots and the only player apart from Lauri on the current team that has 'gravity'. The Dubs pre-Durant showed how you use two players with gravity... and that is, get somebody else (Dray) who moves the ball very well and sees the game, and have these two (Steph and Klay) move constantly, off-ball. That was Kerr's genius and why Mark Jackson couldn't get anywhere with almost the same roster. When you put the ball in the hands on an elite shooter and ask him to create, you actually emphasize his weaknesses (unless they are an all-time great) because he needs to make decisions on the P&R, when to pass, when to drive, etc... and that is with two extremely high IQ players. If you remember, the pre-Kerr Dubs were in essence Klay and Steph taking turns going solo with some David Lee P&R thrown in there. These guys still got numbers, and won some, but a simple change in play style (and Dray + Iggy facilitating) turned them into a dynasty.

That's how Zach has to be used on a good team. The D can't afford to lose him or else he'd be dunking or shooting open 3s all night. He'll have to learn to move off ball and cut and the like, but unlike real-time feel for the game, moving off-ball CAN be taught. And there is evidence to back that up--some of Zach's best games as a Bull came when he was a catch-and-shoot, catch-and-dunk player.

But, the Bulls need a playmaker or two who sees the field well. I was hoping that can be WCJ when he got drafted, but he's been put in the garbage-man role. It's not Lauri--Lauri needs a playmaker more than anybody else on the team. The Bulls need a poor-man's Scottie at the 3 real, real bad, if Coby is to start. In other words, the Bulls need at least two very bright players that touch the ball in good spots a lot. Bam for example, will make Zach look much better, just like a healthy and engaged Otto did for that brief stint.



100%. Someone said Zach has achieved/playing above his ceiling. I disagree. Zach's ceiling is much much higher. He's developed his individual game so high, that now we need a specific piece around him to unlock the next level.

White showed really impressive displays for scoring and pull-up jumpers AS A ROOKIE. But seems like he could potentially be limited in many of the ways Zach is (his defensive instincts are at least several steps higher than Lavine's was or ever has been, but his creation for others seemed similarly poor like Lavine's early years, so not expecting much but also not writing it off). I would love to have two dynamic scorers like that on our perimeter; it's a potential that's pretty rare (Portland/GS are the two pinnacles there).

I love Lavine more and more, especially post quarantine. He checks so many of the boxes off the court. Work ethic: undoubtedly checked. He's displayed a really outgoing personality and every time I see/hear him he seems real humble and down to earth (which usually makes a good teammate). I watched the whole NBA2K game that he played against Ayton; he was funny, carried the conversation, just in general really strong interpersonal skills. Then he also did the HORSE comp and was similar again. That stuff may seem irrelevant, but to me it points to some makings of a good locker-room leader. He doesn't seem to have other rubbed guys the wrong way, but I've also not heard a lot about how much guys gravitate around him.

All that said, I too think the perfect Small Forward could unlock a major win difference in this team. Porter could be close, he provides even more spacing, can handle a little, high IQ when it comes to defense and shot selection, reliable as an above average defensder. But he's never on the floor.

I wonder if DeRozan could take the Iggy route as he ages. DeRozan is incredible (at SF) with on-ball decision making imo. He is very limited with his range, but so was Iggy (consistently 30-33% on 3 attempts before getting to GS). DeRozan's last year in Toronto they tried to have him take more 3P, and he took just over 3 per game for first time, and hit 31%. Obviously in SA they've just doubled down on his 2P game. I think he's the most interesting SF to me for future years with Lavine/White. Joe Ingles is intriguing too. Not sure what other Forward out there would be good enough all around.
Doctor Drain wrote:Can a butterfly sing?
MrSparkle
RealGM
Posts: 15,633
And1: 5,258
Joined: Jul 31, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: Knicks/Nets Looking At Lavine 

Post#142 » by MrSparkle » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:32 pm

I don’t see Iguodala in DeRozan. IMO Iguodala always had a knack for rising to the occasion, like that time he grabbed Asik’s missed FT, took it full-length, drew Deng into a foul and sealed the series with 2 FTs. He also has been an elite defender his entire career, and never looked for his own (mid-range) shot as much as he slashed to the rim or created for others. DeRozan falls into that flatter category of being a 3rd tier 1st option, with mixed intangibles.
sco
RealGM
Posts: 14,887
And1: 3,801
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Location: Virtually Everywhere!

Re: Knicks/Nets Looking At Lavine 

Post#143 » by sco » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:02 pm

StunnerKO wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21

Is this meant to symbolize that Zach carries around the dead weight that is the Bulls roster?
:clap:
Little Nathan
Head Coach
Posts: 6,114
And1: 3,699
Joined: Mar 11, 2013
Location: Germany
   

Re: Knicks/Nets Looking At Lavine 

Post#144 » by Little Nathan » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:33 pm

So DeMar DeRozan, an absolutely terrible defender, is going to be our Iggy, the guy who won Finals MVP for his defense against the best player in the league?

That seems unlikely to say the least.
sco
RealGM
Posts: 14,887
And1: 3,801
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Location: Virtually Everywhere!

Re: Knicks/Nets Looking At Lavine 

Post#145 » by sco » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:40 pm

JohnnyTapwater wrote:
Read on Twitter


I have no corroboration for this report just the consistent idea that I would want a kings ransom.

I don't care, I don't care. I'm a Zach LaVine STAN!

How does Zach coexist with Graham there, or do they want to trade Graham? Teams like Charlotte and NY make our roster seem full of talent.
:clap:
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 46,902
And1: 7,036
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:

Re: Knicks/Nets Looking At Lavine 

Post#146 » by dougthonus » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:51 pm

JohnnyTapwater wrote:
Read on Twitter


I have no corroboration for this report just the consistent idea that I would want a kings ransom.

I don't care, I don't care. I'm a Zach LaVine STAN!


So weird to think any team would take that stance unless the other team made it widely known he was available. Not much on the Hornets I would want except future picks.
sco
RealGM
Posts: 14,887
And1: 3,801
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Location: Virtually Everywhere!

Re: Knicks/Nets Looking At Lavine 

Post#147 » by sco » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:50 am

So I was thinking about teams who would want Zach and seeing what they might see in him. The way I see it is that there are a number of other teams (only a little different than the Bulls) with no potential allstars and, arguably no true NBA starters on the roster. They look around and say, what young talent is out there to bring in who has all star "potential" and is a good face for the franchise in terms of charisma and character, and may be "gettable". Zach may be the most attractive target in the NBA through that lens.
:clap:
User avatar
Michael Jackson
RealGM
Posts: 15,051
And1: 1,774
Joined: Jun 15, 2001

Re: Knicks/Nets Looking At Lavine 

Post#148 » by Michael Jackson » Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:38 pm

dougthonus wrote:
JohnnyTapwater wrote:
Read on Twitter


I have no corroboration for this report just the consistent idea that I would want a kings ransom.

I don't care, I don't care. I'm a Zach LaVine STAN!


So weird to think any team would take that stance unless the other team made it widely known he was available. Not much on the Hornets I would want except future picks.



Also the fact that they didn’t pay Kemba so are they really going to pay Zach? Is he going to make that team better than Walker did?
User avatar
TheSuzerain
RealGM
Posts: 12,928
And1: 8,101
Joined: Mar 29, 2012

Re: Knicks/Nets Looking At Lavine 

Post#149 » by TheSuzerain » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:01 pm

I'd do Lavine for Graham straight up.
User avatar
Jvaughn
RealGM
Posts: 24,923
And1: 2,687
Joined: May 18, 2009
   

Re: Knicks/Nets Looking At Lavine 

Post#150 » by Jvaughn » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:25 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:I'd do Lavine for Graham straight up.


Ignoring the fact that salary constraints won't allow that, you'd trade 25/5/4 Zach Lavine for a guy who hasn't shot 40% from the floor yet in his NBA career. A guy that also takes almost 70% of his shots from behind the arc? Please walk me through this rationale.
spearsy23 wrote:Kobe is a low percentage chucker just like Jennings, he's just better at it.


teamCHItown wrote:Now we have threads on what violent felons think of our Bulls. Great. Next up, OJ Simpson's take on a possible Taj Gibson extension.
VolumePoster
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,984
And1: 1,367
Joined: Oct 02, 2009

Re: Knicks/Nets Looking At Lavine 

Post#151 » by VolumePoster » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:30 pm

It would take multiple FRPs for me to look at the bobcats and lavine. And PJ Washington I guess? Graham is already 25.
User avatar
TheSuzerain
RealGM
Posts: 12,928
And1: 8,101
Joined: Mar 29, 2012

Re: Knicks/Nets Looking At Lavine 

Post#152 » by TheSuzerain » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:34 pm

Jvaughn wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:I'd do Lavine for Graham straight up.


Ignoring the fact that salary constraints won't allow that, you'd trade 25/5/4 Zach Lavine for a guy who hasn't shot 40% from the floor yet in his NBA career. A guy that also takes almost 70% of his shots from behind the arc? Please walk me through this rationale.

Graham is an elite passer, and he can shoot pull-up 3's. Higher defensive IQ as well. Lavine is kind of a loser in his career, while Graham has winning intangibles.

Plus, Graham has a lot more team control left compared to Lavine.
User avatar
Jcool0
General Manager
Posts: 8,578
And1: 5,064
Joined: Jul 12, 2014
Location: Illinois
         

Re: Knicks/Nets Looking At Lavine 

Post#153 » by Jcool0 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:16 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
Jvaughn wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:I'd do Lavine for Graham straight up.


Ignoring the fact that salary constraints won't allow that, you'd trade 25/5/4 Zach Lavine for a guy who hasn't shot 40% from the floor yet in his NBA career. A guy that also takes almost 70% of his shots from behind the arc? Please walk me through this rationale.

Graham is an elite passer, and he can shoot pull-up 3's. Higher defensive IQ as well. Lavine is kind of a loser in his career, while Graham has winning intangibles.

Plus, Graham has a lot more team control left compared to Lavine.


Two problems:

1. He is not an elite passer.

2. He is a terrible defender.
User avatar
TheSuzerain
RealGM
Posts: 12,928
And1: 8,101
Joined: Mar 29, 2012

Re: Knicks/Nets Looking At Lavine 

Post#154 » by TheSuzerain » Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:25 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
Jvaughn wrote:
Ignoring the fact that salary constraints won't allow that, you'd trade 25/5/4 Zach Lavine for a guy who hasn't shot 40% from the floor yet in his NBA career. A guy that also takes almost 70% of his shots from behind the arc? Please walk me through this rationale.

Graham is an elite passer, and he can shoot pull-up 3's. Higher defensive IQ as well. Lavine is kind of a loser in his career, while Graham has winning intangibles.

Plus, Graham has a lot more team control left compared to Lavine.


Two problems:

1. He is not an elite passer.

2. He is a terrible defender.

He is an elite passer.

Although I don't blame Bulls fans for not knowing what one of those looks like. It's been a while.
User avatar
Jcool0
General Manager
Posts: 8,578
And1: 5,064
Joined: Jul 12, 2014
Location: Illinois
         

Re: Knicks/Nets Looking At Lavine 

Post#155 » by Jcool0 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:27 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Graham is an elite passer, and he can shoot pull-up 3's. Higher defensive IQ as well. Lavine is kind of a loser in his career, while Graham has winning intangibles.

Plus, Graham has a lot more team control left compared to Lavine.


Two problems:

1. He is not an elite passer.

2. He is a terrible defender.

He is an elite passer.

Although I don't blame Bulls fans for not knowing what one of those looks like. It's been a while.


You were better off calling him a good passer. At lest you could of made a realistic argument for that.
User avatar
TheSuzerain
RealGM
Posts: 12,928
And1: 8,101
Joined: Mar 29, 2012

Re: Knicks/Nets Looking At Lavine 

Post#156 » by TheSuzerain » Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:44 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:
Two problems:

1. He is not an elite passer.

2. He is a terrible defender.

He is an elite passer.

Although I don't blame Bulls fans for not knowing what one of those looks like. It's been a while.


You were better off calling him a good passer. At lest you could of made a realistic argument for that.

He is 8th in the league in assists per game. Other than the uber-usage players (LeBron, Trae, Luka, Lillard), he's only behind Rubio, Simmons, and Lowry.

He averages less turnovers than any of those guys. He averages more assists than Harden.

He does this in Charlotte where it's not like there is a ton of supporting talent (they are 29th in O-Rating).

Offensively he's a lot like Lowry. Maybe with better handles/pull-up game.
MrSparkle
RealGM
Posts: 15,633
And1: 5,258
Joined: Jul 31, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: Knicks/Nets Looking At Lavine 

Post#157 » by MrSparkle » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:26 pm

Charlotte scenario makes sense if it’s a top-3 pick (and FO has a guy they like).

Lavine, Thad, Felicio

For

#1, Batum, Zeller, protected 2022 FRP

Opens 2021 cap. Locks in a cheaper potential star (rookie salary).
User avatar
TheFinishSniper
Veteran
Posts: 2,963
And1: 2,351
Joined: Feb 02, 2018
Location: Earth
   

Re: Knicks/Nets Looking At Lavine 

Post#158 » by TheFinishSniper » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:02 pm

I like news about lavine trade because this means this is coming from his side too. In case boylen stays he will ask to be traded as cherry on top.
“If you were grading rebuilds and dropped in on the United Center on Wednesday night, you saw one team flying up the court, launching 3-pointers, sharing the ball and generally looking like it was having a lot of fun. And then you saw the Bulls.”
othawhitemeat
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,880
And1: 306
Joined: May 14, 2004

Re: Knicks/Nets Looking At Lavine 

Post#159 » by othawhitemeat » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:20 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:He is an elite passer.

Although I don't blame Bulls fans for not knowing what one of those looks like. It's been a while.


You were better off calling him a good passer. At lest you could of made a realistic argument for that.

He is 8th in the league in assists per game. Other than the uber-usage players (LeBron, Trae, Luka, Lillard), he's only behind Rubio, Simmons, and Lowry.

He averages less turnovers than any of those guys. He averages more assists than Harden.

He does this in Charlotte where it's not like there is a ton of supporting talent (they are 29th in O-Rating).

Offensively he's a lot like Lowry. Maybe with better handles/pull-up game.


I do like Graham paired w Coby. If there is any way to get thhe 1st this year paired w Graham, why not.
User avatar
TheSuzerain
RealGM
Posts: 12,928
And1: 8,101
Joined: Mar 29, 2012

Re: Knicks/Nets Looking At Lavine 

Post#160 » by TheSuzerain » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:27 pm

I do think Lavine should have strong trade value. He's still pretty young. He's an all-star caliber scorer. He's an exciting, athletic player who seems marketable in the on-court sense. We can't know for sure what his trade market is, but this does appear like a sell-high scenario to me.

Because of his age and his contract being reasonable, he can fit in on a lot of teams. I could see an up-and-coming team wanting to bring him in to play with young stars (e.g. Hawks, Grizzlies). I could see an established contender/semi-contender wanting to bring him in as extra firepower.

And this forum has been oddly silent on Lavine's upcoming UFA given how freaked so many of you were about Butler's UFA. Lavine is a talented piece, but do you think he deserves a raise? He's very likely going to get one if he's averaging an efficient 25 a game or if he squeeks into an All Star game.

Return to Chicago Bulls