Image ImageImage Image

Bulls are shopping Thad Young not Zach LaVine

Moderators: HomoSapien, kulaz3000, fleet, RedBulls23, Ice Man, AshyLarrysDiaper, Tommy Udo 6 , GimmeDat, dougthonus, Payt10, DASMACKDOWN

P.C.
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,541
And1: 190
Joined: Oct 22, 2001

Re: Bulls are shopping Thad Young not Zach LaVine 

Post#21 » by P.C. » Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:02 pm

If you read between the lines this suggests that Thad is still asking for a trade while Lavine is not. That’s pretty good news.
TeamMan
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,231
And1: 399
Joined: Dec 11, 2002

Re: Bulls are shopping Thad Young not Zach LaVine 

Post#22 » by TeamMan » Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:37 pm

FriedRise wrote:We tried to turn him into a stretch 4 so the coaching staff didn't have to come up with a different gameplan than what they had established with Lauri. We also banned the midrange game. Yeah, of course he wasn't gonna look good here. I would've asked for a trade also.

I think he can still contribute well on a contending team who knows how to use him correctly, but unfortunately for Chicago I think it'll be a sell-low situation because he had a down year.

Some thoughts...

1) This is beating a dead horse, but IMO this move (if it happens) would be to get more PT for Gafford.
2) That then opens the door to swing WCJ between center and PF.
3) This also sets up keeping Lauri as the starter at PF and having a 3-man rotation in the front court.
4) Thad is a solid role player that several teams would like to have at the right price (i.e. a 2-rd pick).
5) This would free up budget space for whatever.
6) If everything else fails before the draft, he could be an add-on in a trade up, but staying pat with both WCJ and Lauri means the Bulls don't have to worry so much about draft position and can just wait for the BPA.
User avatar
TheSuzerain
RealGM
Posts: 12,928
And1: 8,101
Joined: Mar 29, 2012

Re: Bulls are shopping Thad Young not Zach LaVine 

Post#23 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:21 am

On what planet is WCJ a 4?
TeamMan
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,231
And1: 399
Joined: Dec 11, 2002

Re: Bulls are shopping Thad Young not Zach LaVine 

Post#24 » by TeamMan » Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:31 am

TheSuzerain wrote:On what planet is WCJ a 4?

How many 6-9 centers are starting in the NBA?
User avatar
MikeDC
Pro Prospect
Posts: 831
And1: 195
Joined: Jan 23, 2002
Location: DC Area

Re: Bulls are shopping Thad Young not Zach LaVine 

Post#25 » by MikeDC » Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:54 am

dougthonus wrote:
MikeDC wrote:
Basically I think the smart Play is to trade Lauri now. He will actually bring a useful return. And if we do, then we are light up front, so a meaningful role for Thad is available. If things go well, he’ll be more movable at the next deadline than he is now.


What do you think you would get for Lauri? I mean, I'm fine trading him, but I don't think he will command much.


Fans generally have the worst perspectives on their own players, and I think Lauri fits the generality well. Seen from the perspective of the Bulls, he’s a disappointment because we have no core and he’s more or less told us he’s unlikely to be that for us. To us, we’re better off with, say, a pick in the 5-14 range. Because while there’s a chance that pick could be worse than Lauri, there’s a chance it could be the next Kawhi or Giannis or Curry or Klay. For us, with no real foundation, we need to be trying to get guys with a high ceiling.

But other teams, teams that already have a core in place (or at least think they do), they can look at Lauri for what he is, not what he isn’t. If you’re a team with a solid foundation (Zion/Ingram/Ball/Jrue, or KAT/Russell, or CJ McCollum and Damon LIllard) then you are probably looking at thei picks in that range and thinking “meh”. Mostly likely, most of these guys will be worse players than Lauri. Lauri might not be future all-NBA, but he’s a 22 year old 7 footer who’s shown he’s a legit NBA player. If your choice is him or a guy who might not amount to anything and isn’t remotely in a position of need for you, then Lauri starts to look pretty good.

This is why trades get done. Team A is looking for “High Ceiling” and Team B is looking for “High Floor”. Lauri has the highest floor of anyone available in that range. But he has a lower ceiling than the Bulls need.
HoopsterJones
General Manager
Posts: 9,683
And1: 6,852
Joined: Feb 22, 2014

Re: Bulls are shopping Thad Young not Zach LaVine 

Post#26 » by HoopsterJones » Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:15 am

What are the Bulls getting back for Thad? A second round pick?
2019-2020 Bulls Prediction:

Regular Season: 35-47
1 All Star: Markkanen or LaVine
All Rookie 2nd Team: Coby White
User avatar
DASMACKDOWN
Forum Mod - Bulls
Forum Mod - Bulls
Posts: 24,482
And1: 9,448
Joined: Nov 01, 2001
Location: Cookin' with Derrick Rose

Re: Bulls are shopping Thad Young not Zach LaVine 

Post#27 » by DASMACKDOWN » Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:23 am

TeamMan wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:On what planet is WCJ a 4?

How many 6-9 centers are starting in the NBA?


I counted 7 including us. It was only 5 before trade deadline.

But strangely enough, Boston, Miami and Houston have 6-9 or less at center but they compensate by having several key guys that are 6-6 or taller.

I think the new scheme is key that you have several wings that can switch and play multiple positions rather just a one role player.

I think where we run into trouble is that we have Wendell who is undersized but doesnt play like a 3 or 4. And you have Lauri who has great size but struggles to play like a 5 or 3.

A team like Boston or Toronto makes their offense ambiguous. Gordon, Tatum, Brown, Theis and Kemba. Their wing positions are irrelevant and they make you play their style.
The quest for #7
User avatar
HomoSapien
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 27,989
And1: 16,396
Joined: Aug 17, 2009
 

Re: Bulls are shopping Thad Young not Zach LaVine 

Post#28 » by HomoSapien » Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:55 am

Skillset wise, WCJ has only shown the ability to be a center on offense. If he came to the NBA about 10 years ago, he'd probably be an Antonio Davis/Taj Gibson type of big man. WCJ has been poorly utilized offensively dating back to college. Maybe he has ability we haven't seen, but it's hard to imagine that Boylen's going to be the guy to uncover it.
ThreeYearPlan wrote:Bulls fans defend HomoSapien more than Rose.
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 46,902
And1: 7,036
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:

Re: Bulls are shopping Thad Young not Zach LaVine 

Post#29 » by dougthonus » Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:24 am

MikeDC wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
MikeDC wrote:

What do you think you would get for Lauri? I mean, I'm fine trading him, but I don't think he will command much.


Fans generally have the worst perspectives on their own players, and I think Lauri fits the generality well. Seen from the perspective of the Bulls, he’s a disappointment because we have no core and he’s more or less told us he’s unlikely to be that for us. To us, we’re better off with, say, a pick in the 5-14 range. Because while there’s a chance that pick could be worse than Lauri, there’s a chance it could be the next Kawhi or Giannis or Curry or Klay. For us, with no real foundation, we need to be trying to get guys with a high ceiling.

But other teams, teams that already have a core in place (or at least think they do), they can look at Lauri for what he is, not what he isn’t. If you’re a team with a solid foundation (Zion/Ingram/Ball/Jrue, or KAT/Russell, or CJ McCollum and Damon LIllard) then you are probably looking at thei picks in that range and thinking “meh”. Mostly likely, most of these guys will be worse players than Lauri. Lauri might not be future all-NBA, but he’s a 22 year old 7 footer who’s shown he’s a legit NBA player. If your choice is him or a guy who might not amount to anything and isn’t remotely in a position of need for you, then Lauri starts to look pretty good.

This is why trades get done. Team A is looking for “High Ceiling” and Team B is looking for “High Floor”. Lauri has the highest floor of anyone available in that range. But he has a lower ceiling than the Bulls need.


I think a pick that projects to around 12-16 is the best you'd get for Lauri and would probably have top 10 or better protection. The odds of that player being a foundational piece are exceptionally low. YOu will almost certainly be less talented after the trade. If you can get a foundational piece in the draft, then you may also need a player like Lauri whom might be starter worthy and maybe even above average starter worthy, whereas that pick will almost certainly not be.

That said, it gets into the tricky situation about how much his next contract is of course. I'd maybe be okay trading Lauri for that lousy pick, but really good chance that works out worse for you. Of course, that's just part for the course for trades, if you knew it'd work out well the other team probably wouldn't do it.
User avatar
Showtime23
Analyst
Posts: 3,304
And1: 985
Joined: Oct 12, 2018

Re: Bulls are shopping Thad Young not Zach LaVine 

Post#30 » by Showtime23 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:09 am

TeamMan wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:On what planet is WCJ a 4?

How many 6-9 centers are starting in the NBA?


6-9 is more than enough and wingspan is more important. if carter cant play center he might retire since he has been doing that for his career.
WindyCityBorn
RealGM
Posts: 12,920
And1: 6,250
Joined: Jun 26, 2014
     

Re: Bulls are shopping Thad Young not Zach LaVine 

Post#31 » by WindyCityBorn » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:42 am

P.C. wrote:If you read between the lines this suggests that Thad is still asking for a trade while Lavine is not. That’s pretty good news.


LaVine was never asking for a trade.
sco
RealGM
Posts: 14,887
And1: 3,801
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Location: Virtually Everywhere!

Re: Bulls are shopping Thad Young not Zach LaVine 

Post#32 » by sco » Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:57 am

I think that Thad's is the one pushing to be traded. I think he wants more minutes than he'll likely see on a healthy Bulls roster. I also think he's one of the guys who really doesn't like Kingpin.

If someone is willing to pick-up his contract, I'd be fine trading him for nothing in return. IMO, we could go find an equal caliber back-up for less $. Go get Taj or Vonleh.
:clap:
User avatar
TheFinishSniper
Veteran
Posts: 2,963
And1: 2,351
Joined: Feb 02, 2018
Location: Earth
   

Re: Bulls are shopping Thad Young not Zach LaVine 

Post#33 » by TheFinishSniper » Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:32 pm

sco wrote:I think that Thad's is the one pushing to be traded. I think he wants more minutes than he'll likely see on a healthy Bulls roster. I also think he's one of the guys who really doesn't like Kingpin.

If someone is willing to pick-up his contract, I'd be fine trading him for nothing in return. IMO, we could go find an equal caliber back-up for less $. Go get Taj or Vonleh.

He publicly said he wants more minutes while new managment already spoke about making Lauri big part of Bulls to improve. So it's no wonder they are looking to move him. I think this trade will be more about Bulls getting right kind of vet backup who is willing to mentor than getting actual asset in return.
“If you were grading rebuilds and dropped in on the United Center on Wednesday night, you saw one team flying up the court, launching 3-pointers, sharing the ball and generally looking like it was having a lot of fun. And then you saw the Bulls.”
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 46,902
And1: 7,036
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:

Re: Bulls are shopping Thad Young not Zach LaVine 

Post#34 » by dougthonus » Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:20 pm

TeamMan wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:On what planet is WCJ a 4?

How many 6-9 centers are starting in the NBA?


Not many, but height isn't really the best indicator, he has a 9'1 standing reach and weighs 260. Do you think a guy who's 6-10 or 6-11 that weighs 235 and has the same reach is more fit to play center?

Another question would be, how many PFs are there that are 260+ in weight?
User avatar
TheStig
RealGM
Posts: 12,681
And1: 3,027
Joined: Jun 18, 2004
Location: Get rid of GarPaxDorf

Re: Bulls are shopping Thad Young not Zach LaVine 

Post#35 » by TheStig » Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:05 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:On what planet is WCJ a 4?

The 90's!
User avatar
MikeDC
Pro Prospect
Posts: 831
And1: 195
Joined: Jan 23, 2002
Location: DC Area

Re: Bulls are shopping Thad Young not Zach LaVine 

Post#36 » by MikeDC » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:16 pm

dougthonus wrote:
MikeDC wrote:
dougthonus wrote:


Fans generally have the worst perspectives on their own players, and I think Lauri fits the generality well. Seen from the perspective of the Bulls, he’s a disappointment because we have no core and he’s more or less told us he’s unlikely to be that for us. To us, we’re better off with, say, a pick in the 5-14 range. Because while there’s a chance that pick could be worse than Lauri, there’s a chance it could be the next Kawhi or Giannis or Curry or Klay. For us, with no real foundation, we need to be trying to get guys with a high ceiling.

But other teams, teams that already have a core in place (or at least think they do), they can look at Lauri for what he is, not what he isn’t. If you’re a team with a solid foundation (Zion/Ingram/Ball/Jrue, or KAT/Russell, or CJ McCollum and Damon LIllard) then you are probably looking at thei picks in that range and thinking “meh”. Mostly likely, most of these guys will be worse players than Lauri. Lauri might not be future all-NBA, but he’s a 22 year old 7 footer who’s shown he’s a legit NBA player. If your choice is him or a guy who might not amount to anything and isn’t remotely in a position of need for you, then Lauri starts to look pretty good.

This is why trades get done. Team A is looking for “High Ceiling” and Team B is looking for “High Floor”. Lauri has the highest floor of anyone available in that range. But he has a lower ceiling than the Bulls need.


I think a pick that projects to around 12-16 is the best you'd get for Lauri and would probably have top 10 or better protection. The odds of that player being a foundational piece are exceptionally low. YOu will almost certainly be less talented after the trade. If you can get a foundational piece in the draft, then you may also need a player like Lauri whom might be starter worthy and maybe even above average starter worthy, whereas that pick will almost certainly not be.

That said, it gets into the tricky situation about how much his next contract is of course. I'd maybe be okay trading Lauri for that lousy pick, but really good chance that works out worse for you. Of course, that's just part for the course for trades, if you knew it'd work out well the other team probably wouldn't do it.


It really depends on the draft. We know that the average value of a pick is low, but, on the other hand, the cumulative probability that at least one player drafted at or after a given pick will be high is very large. Like, in almost any draft, you can find one of the better players later.

The better a job you’ve done on the draft, the better a job this sort of trade is likely to be.

It’s also worth understanding that the way the money/contract issue turns out, the Bulls don’t have to draft the next Kawhi to make the trade a win. If the player is basically comparable to Lauri but cheaper, we are still better off. If the player is a lot worse than Lauri, he’s still cheaper, so we’re worse off, but it’s not a complete loss.

I would say that generally speaking, the Bulls (and historically the Nuggets with AK) are fairly solid at scouting the draft. That increases the odds in the favor of the trade turning out well. You don’t do this sort of trade blindly, you do it close to the draft with an educated idea that there’s a player available that you want and you feel good about.
MrSparkle
RealGM
Posts: 15,633
And1: 5,258
Joined: Jul 31, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: Bulls are shopping Thad Young not Zach LaVine 

Post#37 » by MrSparkle » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:17 pm

DASMACKDOWN wrote:
TeamMan wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:On what planet is WCJ a 4?

How many 6-9 centers are starting in the NBA?


I counted 7 including us. It was only 5 before trade deadline.

But strangely enough, Boston, Miami and Houston have 6-9 or less at center but they compensate by having several key guys that are 6-6 or taller.

I think the new scheme is key that you have several wings that can switch and play multiple positions rather just a one role player.

I think where we run into trouble is that we have Wendell who is undersized but doesnt play like a 3 or 4. And you have Lauri who has great size but struggles to play like a 5 or 3.

A team like Boston or Toronto makes their offense ambiguous. Gordon, Tatum, Brown, Theis and Kemba. Their wing positions are irrelevant and they make you play their style.


Well, if WCJ could score like Horford or Brand, we'd all be very happy with him and not really worry about which position he plays. Since he scores more like Gobert, his lack of height limits his defensive strength... resulting in a mediocre center.

Speaking of role-players in general, good players can score and defend. Average players are serviceable defenders with little offense. Bad players are either scorers with poor defense and awareness (Blakeney), or decent defenders who can't score if their life depended on it. Unfortunately Wendell, Dunn and Hutchinson drift between the 2nd and 3rd categories.

My hope lies in Wendell being capable of more, held back by the system and his injuries. RoLo looked like a dumpster fire for the first half of 18/19, then after WCJ's injury, he started getting minutes, offensive looks, got in shape, and looked like an entirely good center from February on. Besides for generational stars like Embiid or Jokic, centers are a very circumstantial position. When Wendell was in peak shape, he was pretty mobile for his weight. Coming back from the injuries, he'd move more like Sweetney. So if he gets into shape, stays healthy, and has more offensive reign, he could entirely flip the narrative on us and look like a top-15 center. Definitely a lower-ceiling player than we hoped on draft night, but even Hibbert and Magloire had all-star seasons.
TeamMan
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,231
And1: 399
Joined: Dec 11, 2002

Re: Bulls are shopping Thad Young not Zach LaVine 

Post#38 » by TeamMan » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:26 pm

DASMACKDOWN wrote:
TeamMan wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:On what planet is WCJ a 4?

How many 6-9 centers are starting in the NBA?


I counted 7 including us. It was only 5 before trade deadline.

But strangely enough, Boston, Miami and Houston have 6-9 or less at center but they compensate by having several key guys that are 6-6 or taller.

I think the new scheme is key that you have several wings that can switch and play multiple positions rather just a one role player.

I think where we run into trouble is that we have Wendell who is undersized but doesnt play like a 3 or 4. And you have Lauri who has great size but struggles to play like a 5 or 3.

A team like Boston or Toronto makes their offense ambiguous. Gordon, Tatum, Brown, Theis and Kemba. Their wing positions are irrelevant and they make you play their style.

The bold text is why I suggested that Hutch be moved/tried at SG.

He would be perfect together with a scoring PG (like Coby) or we could even try him together with Zach playing PG.

The good teams in the league don't limit themselves to playing "positional" basketball.

And in the same way, WCJ could play PF together with Gafford and become the inside "enforcer".

This team has so many possibilities for flexibility.

It just needs to be used.
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 46,902
And1: 7,036
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:

Re: Bulls are shopping Thad Young not Zach LaVine 

Post#39 » by dougthonus » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:45 pm

MikeDC wrote:It really depends on the draft. We know that the average value of a pick is low, but, on the other hand, the cumulative probability that at least one player drafted at or after a given pick will be high is very large. Like, in almost any draft, you can find one of the better players later.

The better a job you’ve done on the draft, the better a job this sort of trade is likely to be.

It’s also worth understanding that the way the money/contract issue turns out, the Bulls don’t have to draft the next Kawhi to make the trade a win. If the player is basically comparable to Lauri but cheaper, we are still better off. If the player is a lot worse than Lauri, he’s still cheaper, so we’re worse off, but it’s not a complete loss.

I would say that generally speaking, the Bulls (and historically the Nuggets with AK) are fairly solid at scouting the draft. That increases the odds in the favor of the trade turning out well. You don’t do this sort of trade blindly, you do it close to the draft with an educated idea that there’s a player available that you want and you feel good about.


You have to assume you're going to get median value with the pick though, and maybe if you're really good, then you say a 20% better than median value. If you assume you will get value that is much better than median value then you should be trading all your players for picks, and you will probably find that you can't repeat that type of result consistently over time and that you actually likely just got really lucky.

The funny thing is I need to also get my head wrapped around the fact that a Lauri trade has a good chance of yielding a 2021 pick rather than a 2020 pick depending when you make it. If you trade him on draft day, you know pretty specifically exactly the player you are targeting and the pick you're getting. If you make it after the draft, you are getting uncertainty in the players that will be available, uncertainty in how good they will look, and uncertainty in where you will pick. Uncertainty shouldn't necessarily mean bad, there is upside in that too, especially given that we feel pretty bad about the 2020 draft as a whole. Uncertainty in 2021 probably has more value than certainty in 2020.
Chi town
RealGM
Posts: 17,301
And1: 3,621
Joined: Aug 10, 2004

Re: Bulls are shopping Thad Young not Zach LaVine 

Post#40 » by Chi town » Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:59 pm

Who will be taking on new salary next season with everyone losing big money???

Thad and Sato will play out there contracts next season and then their options wont be picked up.

With Salary Cap going way down it seems AK's primary way to make us better will be a trade instead of FA... or hitting big on our pick in a bad draft

Return to Chicago Bulls