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Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART

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Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#1 » by dougthonus » Tue Aug 4, 2020 12:51 am

Leslie Forman wrote:
dougthonus wrote:Zion's just a big strong guy with great touch around the basket if he's not a freak athlete, but he's not even a tall one in that scenario.

He's much more than that. He is a fantastic passer and has great vision and instincts. IMO he could legitimately be turned into a Draymond Green/Boris Diaw type of point forward/center if he suddenly lost his explosiveness and never developed his 3. In fact I would not be surprised one bit if he took a very Blake Griffin-ish career path in terms of offensive role.

I think New Orleans really needs to get rid of Lonzo and start developing Zion into that type of player right now, actually. I don't think Gentry has a clue how to really utilize him. All the people here complaining nonstop about Boylen really have no clue how bad some other coaches around the league are when it comes to pure Xs and Os.


I haven't seen Zion as a great passer. Neither his college or pro stats would back that up, but I've only seen a small fraction of his games at either level and a bunch of highlights (none of which are him making great passes). Part of it is how he's used I'm sure and opportunities he has which are limited, but I think that's very sketchy to say he could be an offensive initiator as a passer rather than a guy who just passes out of a double team to an open guy.

Again though, I've only seen limited amounts of Zion, so I'm basing that on the stats and his games I've watched (maybe 10% of his pro/college career).

As for Morant, he is a great passer too but it's ultimately still all based on getting to the rack, like John Wall. Maybe he becomes a high level shooter, maybe he doesn't. That's not really any more of a sure thing than any other hypothetical. If Morant ever lost his quickness but never became an elite shooter, he'd just be another non-scoring passing point guard, an archetype that is really not an offensive plus at all.


I agree that Wall is a good comparison for Morant.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#2 » by dougthonus » Tue Aug 4, 2020 12:55 am

Lexluthor wrote:Picking Wendell Carter over MPJ was just terrible.


Good for Michael Porter Jr if he continues to stay healthy and have a great career. He had two back surgeries that caused him to miss a season in consecutive years prior to this year. He effectively had no college career to compare to either, so his highest level of competition was HS where many great HS players step up to the next level.

Porter was a high risk / high reward player which is pretty obvious and the risk side of that was demonstrated when he missed his entire rookie campaign with a back surgery right after everyone said "he'll never need another back surgery again, that's ridiculous!". Now maybe that will be true this time, and he will go on to have a hall of fame type career.

If it went the other way and he required a 3rd back surgery and his career was ended then it wouldn't have made drafting him any smarter or stupider. It would just mean the bet didn't go well, and there are countless examples of those risk reward players not panning out just like there are countless ones where they do.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#3 » by JohnnyTapwater » Tue Aug 4, 2020 1:11 am

oh, look at that. MPJ seems to be playing pretty good huh.

That was the perfect risk to take.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#4 » by NecessaryEvil » Tue Aug 4, 2020 1:29 am

Dresden wrote:Porter: 37/12 tonight with a block and a steal. 12-16 from the floor, 4-6 on 3's. As with so many nba players, his effectiveness is going to rest heavily on if he can shoot consistently from deep. If he can do that, he can be a star. He also looks like h'es going to be a strong rebounder. I always believed in his talent, even as so many were saying they saw nothing in his tapes that would indicate an nba player.



yeah I remember

'he only dominated because he played against kids', 'has no handle', 'won't be able to get his shot over NBA level athletes', blah blah blah etc.

That kid wanted to be a Bull so badly too. He's been very very good since recovering and having a true chance to rehab with Denver. Now, if Bol Bol pans out the way it's looking ...


:banghead: :banghead: :-? :cry: :banghead: :banghead:

I commend Denver's scouting and GM highly. They see the big picture. With Murray/Jokic leading those other young guys, they have 'POTENTIAL' to be elite for a long time
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#5 » by dougthonus » Tue Aug 4, 2020 1:31 am

NecessaryEvil wrote:yeah I remember

'he only dominated because he played against kids', 'has no handle', 'won't be able to get his shot over NBA level athletes', blah blah blah etc.


He's been very very good since recovering and having a true chance to rehab with Denver. Now, if Bol Bol pans out too ...


:banghead: :banghead: :-? :cry: :banghead: :banghead:


The good news is we will have the GM that took both those guys going forward :lol:

Though even if Bol pans out, Gafford looks really good as well. If you get someone good in the 2nd round and someone that is viable, you don't complain that you didn't get the best, you're happy you didn't get one of the 25 busts.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#6 » by NecessaryEvil » Tue Aug 4, 2020 1:39 am

dougthonus wrote:
NecessaryEvil wrote:yeah I remember

'he only dominated because he played against kids', 'has no handle', 'won't be able to get his shot over NBA level athletes', blah blah blah etc.


He's been very very good since recovering and having a true chance to rehab with Denver. Now, if Bol Bol pans out too ...


:banghead: :banghead: :-? :cry: :banghead: :banghead:


The good news is we will have the GM that took both those guys going forward :lol:

Though even if Bol pans out, Gafford looks really good as well. If you get someone good in the 2nd round and someone that is viable, you don't complain that you didn't get the best, you're happy you didn't get one of the 25 busts.



That's probably the only redeeming factor about the whole thing for me. I'm excited about his vision.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#7 » by MrSparkle » Tue Aug 4, 2020 1:48 am

Fact is MPJ at #14 was a total no-brainer. Not sure what LAC saw in Robinson (though they nailed Shai).

Was a big risk at #7. But I guess Bagley, Bamba, Ayton and Wendell were too. :-? Them’s the breaks. I had no problem with MPJ but Bulls weren’t in a good spot for a rehab project, even 2 years later - going in, they had minutes for rookies, not guys red-shirted. Denver is a deep playoff team with a superstar center.

The bigger problem is who thought it’d be wise to dump all the Bulls star/playoff talent and gamble on #7 prospects?
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#8 » by Dresden » Tue Aug 4, 2020 1:54 am

dougthonus wrote:
Lexluthor wrote:Picking Wendell Carter over MPJ was just terrible.


Good for Michael Porter Jr if he continues to stay healthy and have a great career. He had two back surgeries that caused him to miss a season in consecutive years prior to this year. He effectively had no college career to compare to either, so his highest level of competition was HS where many great HS players step up to the next level.

Porter was a high risk / high reward player which is pretty obvious and the risk side of that was demonstrated when he missed his entire rookie campaign with a back surgery right after everyone said "he'll never need another back surgery again, that's ridiculous!". Now maybe that will be true this time, and he will go on to have a hall of fame type career.

If it went the other way and he required a 3rd back surgery and his career was ended then it wouldn't have made drafting him any smarter or stupider. It would just mean the bet didn't go well, and there are countless examples of those risk reward players not panning out just like there are countless ones where they do.


Not all back surgeries are the same though. He had microdiscetomies, which is a pretty minor procedure. I don't think it ever requires an overnight stay. If he had had a fusion or a disc removed, or something more serious, that would be something else. That being said, his medicals were shared with everyone, and 13 teams decided to pass on him, so maybe there was something in his medicals that scared teams off.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#9 » by VolumePoster » Tue Aug 4, 2020 2:20 am

Way too early to begin gnashing our teeth about MPJ versus WCJ.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#10 » by Muzbar » Tue Aug 4, 2020 4:44 am

During the 2018 draft I wanted MPJ at 7 and Mitchell Robinson at 22.

Even if MPJ sits out the year (which he did) it would've increased our chances at Ja for the next draft.

Hindsight, I know.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#11 » by dougthonus » Tue Aug 4, 2020 1:19 pm

Dresden wrote:Not all back surgeries are the same though. He had microdiscetomies, which is a pretty minor procedure. I don't think it ever requires an overnight stay. If he had had a fusion or a disc removed, or something more serious, that would be something else. That being said, his medicals were shared with everyone, and 13 teams decided to pass on him, so maybe there was something in his medicals that scared teams off.


What does minor mean? Certainly not time lost, as he lost a season both times. If you mean low chance of recurrence, he needed the procedure twice in two years, that also seems to go against the theory that this couldn't happen again.

There's also the weird injury history of his family, which based on my quick google research shows that three of his siblings that play collegiate level basketball have a combined 9 ACL tears.

I don't mean this in the sense that it could never work out for MPj, just saying that there was obvious reason for concern, he was awful in workouts and not recovered around the draft, and immediately required a season ending surgery that was a recurrence of the issue that caused him to look poorly.

Embiid is a similar case study whom now seems fine and a steal. Greg Oden might be a guy in a similar position that things didn't work out for and was completely wrecked for his career. Obviously all three guys had totally different injuries, just talking about guys that had major injury concerns going into the draft (Oden, ironically, probably had the least amount of concern, as he wasn't presently hurt and didn't have a major college injury). Zion is probably another current example that we'll see how he does (though proved himself as a high level prospect than MPj).
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#12 » by DASMACKDOWN » Tue Aug 4, 2020 3:35 pm

I just realized the messed up thing about anyone getting any major injuries in this Bubble/pandemic of a season, it will also most likely keep them out of the next season as well.

In this case Jonathon Isaac
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#13 » by Dresden » Tue Aug 4, 2020 4:13 pm

Porter's surgery was minor in that it was not very invasive, unlike when you have to get a fusion done. They just carve out a bit of the nerve canal for there is less chance of inflammation and pain. I'm no doctor, but from what I've read about the procedure, sometimes it does have to be done again if the first one does not fully relieve the pain. And the recovery time is sometimes prolonged just to let things simmer down so the inflammation does not come back. With Porter, they probably didn't need him right away anyway, so wanted to be extra cautious.

It's also minor in that it doesn't reduce your mobility or athleticism, like a fusion surgery.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#14 » by MrFortune3 » Tue Aug 4, 2020 4:39 pm

dougthonus wrote:
NecessaryEvil wrote:yeah I remember

'he only dominated because he played against kids', 'has no handle', 'won't be able to get his shot over NBA level athletes', blah blah blah etc.


He's been very very good since recovering and having a true chance to rehab with Denver. Now, if Bol Bol pans out too ...


:banghead: :banghead: :-? :cry: :banghead: :banghead:


The good news is we will have the GM that took both those guys going forward :lol:

Though even if Bol pans out, Gafford looks really good as well. If you get someone good in the 2nd round and someone that is viable, you don't complain that you didn't get the best, you're happy you didn't get one of the 25 busts.


AK coming from the Nuggs and them constantly finding talent in the draft from seemingly everywhere is what really excites me about him.
Nuggets and Raptors make the most of their picks and develop guys. I so badly want to see that come to fruition in Chicago.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#15 » by MrFortune3 » Tue Aug 4, 2020 4:41 pm

DASMACKDOWN wrote:I just realized the messed up thing about anyone getting any major injuries in this Bubble/pandemic of a season, it will also most likely keep them out of the next season as well.

In this case Jonathon Isaac


I think some of it is from rushing back to the season but there were a rash of injuries before this so more than likely if a player is going to get hurt, he is going to get hurt. Isaac had a knee issue earlier on and usually when you have some sort of leg issue, you subconsciously utilize another part of your body to compensate for the pain and end up straining or tearing something worse.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#16 » by dougthonus » Tue Aug 4, 2020 5:18 pm

Dresden wrote:Porter's surgery was minor in that it was not very invasive, unlike when you have to get a fusion done. They just carve out a bit of the nerve canal for there is less chance of inflammation and pain. I'm no doctor, but from what I've read about the procedure, sometimes it does have to be done again if the first one does not fully relieve the pain. And the recovery time is sometimes prolonged just to let things simmer down so the inflammation does not come back. With Porter, they probably didn't need him right away anyway, so wanted to be extra cautious.

It's also minor in that it doesn't reduce your mobility or athleticism, like a fusion surgery.


Either way, I wish nothing bad for him. A guy who missed two seasons due to two back surgeries being viewed as "low risk" would be new to me. I'm not saying that it was a foregone conclusion that he would be done or anything, it just seems silly to me to say "there's no risk there".

For most major surgeries out there, the doctors always say "he should return to full form" but we very often never see that and very often do see recurrences of injuries. People say the same thing about ACL injuries, Meniscus injuries, other back surgeries, achilles injuries etc... My experience as a fan and just watching the game of basketball is that if you have multiple injuries that keep you out for a full season, there's a really good chance that you're going to have a very short, unhealthy career, regardless of what those injuries are.

That seems to be the case a huge percentage of the time. There aren't many (any?) NBA players that have had this procedure recently to gauge, and the traditional medicine approach of 100% often doesn't end up ringing true for professional athletes where a gap between 95% and 100% ends up being a major difference.

Anyway, as I said, it's a moot point, but the next time I'm looking at a player with two years of basketball missed due to injury, i'll still think he's high risk too. I might take that risk depending on the circumstances, but I'll definitely think he's high risk.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#17 » by Dresden » Tue Aug 4, 2020 6:56 pm

dougthonus wrote:
Dresden wrote:Porter's surgery was minor in that it was not very invasive, unlike when you have to get a fusion done. They just carve out a bit of the nerve canal for there is less chance of inflammation and pain. I'm no doctor, but from what I've read about the procedure, sometimes it does have to be done again if the first one does not fully relieve the pain. And the recovery time is sometimes prolonged just to let things simmer down so the inflammation does not come back. With Porter, they probably didn't need him right away anyway, so wanted to be extra cautious.

It's also minor in that it doesn't reduce your mobility or athleticism, like a fusion surgery.


Either way, I wish nothing bad for him. A guy who missed two seasons due to two back surgeries being viewed as "low risk" would be new to me. I'm not saying that it was a foregone conclusion that he would be done or anything, it just seems silly to me to say "there's no risk there".

For most major surgeries out there, the doctors always say "he should return to full form" but we very often never see that and very often do see recurrences of injuries. People say the same thing about ACL injuries, Meniscus injuries, other back surgeries, achilles injuries etc... My experience as a fan and just watching the game of basketball is that if you have multiple injuries that keep you out for a full season, there's a really good chance that you're going to have a very short, unhealthy career, regardless of what those injuries are.

That seems to be the case a huge percentage of the time. There aren't many (any?) NBA players that have had this procedure recently to gauge, and the traditional medicine approach of 100% often doesn't end up ringing true for professional athletes where a gap between 95% and 100% ends up being a major difference.

Anyway, as I said, it's a moot point, but the next time I'm looking at a player with two years of basketball missed due to injury, i'll still think he's high risk too. I might take that risk depending on the circumstances, but I'll definitely think he's high risk.


There definitely is a risk for him of having reoccurring back injuries, or some loss of athleticism. I've read stats on pro athletes having this surgery, and there are a certain percentage who have their ability curtailed. But on the plus side, he's young, and young bodies heal better.

I don't think anyone is saying he was a low risk pick. But I also think some people over-react when they hear the words "multiple back surgeries". Scottie Pippen had back surgery his second season I believe, and it didn't really affect his play.

Personally, I would have preferred the Bulls had taken the risk at #7 with Porter. I thought the upside with him was high enough, and one of the major themes with the Bulls at that point was that they needed to somehow land a superstar, not just a good nba player. So it made a lot of sense from that perspective.

I hope he has a long, healthy career, because I think he could be a really exciting player to watch, but we'll see. He could break down again and be done, or have an Oden or Sam Bowie type career, too.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#18 » by dougthonus » Tue Aug 4, 2020 7:55 pm

Dresden wrote:Personally, I would have preferred the Bulls had taken the risk at #7 with Porter. I thought the upside with him was high enough, and one of the major themes with the Bulls at that point was that they needed to somehow land a superstar, not just a good nba player. So it made a lot of sense from that perspective.

I hope he has a long, healthy career, because I think he could be a really exciting player to watch, but we'll see. He could break down again and be done, or have an Oden or Sam Bowie type career, too.


At the time, I liked Carter. I thought he was going to be the next Al Horford. Maybe he still will be, but he's certainly not trending in that direction right now. I would have not liked taking the risk only because I thought Carter was going to be very good. That said, I wouldn't have been upset about MPJ if we were sitting 8 and the draft went the same way.

I also don't think much of my own evaluation of players only because I don't watch enough or know enough to think my opinion on prospects has much meaning. I always have one, but I take my own opinion with a grain of salt when it comes to the draft :lol:
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#19 » by Little Nathan » Tue Aug 4, 2020 8:21 pm

In other news, former Bull Timothe Luwawu-Cabarrot scored 20+ in 2 of the first 3 Nets games in Orlando. Didn't really see that coming.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#20 » by exospheer » Tue Aug 4, 2020 8:29 pm

Been watching the Grizzles? Not comparing the two, but Ja Morant reminds me of young D Rose a lot. D Rose being the better scorer and stronger, Ja being the better passer and more smooth.

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