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It's early, but Already Time to show COBY WHITE some Appreciation in Chicago

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Re: It's early, but Already Time to show COBY WHITE some Appreciation in Chicago 

Post#41 » by GusFring » Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:27 pm

Playmaking is a coveted skill actually. Ever hear of LeBron? It's kind of hard to care about Coby White when we've been tanking for years and young players like Luka and Donovan Mitchell exist. Bulls are hopeless
coldfish wrote:I used to think that the Bulls scouting department didn't have access to advanced stats.

I now thing that the Bulls scouting department doesn't have access to electricity or any devices that actually use it.
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Re: It's early, but Already Time to show COBY WHITE some Appreciation in Chicago 

Post#42 » by sco » Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:07 pm

GusFring wrote:Playmaking is a coveted skill actually. Ever hear of LeBron? It's kind of hard to care about Coby White when we've been tanking for years and young players like Luka and Donovan Mitchell exist. Bulls are hopeless

I think there is some definitional difference between playmaking and being a distributor, and I think you're right. There are 2 related trends in the NBA. First the 3pt shot has become the centerpiece of most offenses, and IMO, good teams have at least 4 guys on the floor who can shoot the 3 at 34%+ (usually, it's the C who is the exception) - so PG's are required to be decent 3pt shooters (especially with the increase in transition 3's). Second, given a shift with guards being even more perimeter oriented than in years past, forwards are taking on more ball handling responsibility - especially the better scoring ones...who need better ball handing skills to get in their positions. Combining that with the 3 ball, and these new playmakers have become adept at the kick-out passes when the double-teamed.

As for Coby, his 3pt shooting was all over the place last year, but showed definite improvement at the end of the season. If he can become a consistent/competent 3pt shooter and also improve his finishing at the rime, I love having a 2 man backcourt who can score both at both levels.
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Re: It's early, but Already Time to show COBY WHITE some Appreciation in Chicago 

Post#43 » by WindyCityBorn » Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:37 pm

GusFring wrote:Playmaking is a coveted skill actually. Ever hear of LeBron? It's kind of hard to care about Coby White when we've been tanking for years and young players like Luka and Donovan Mitchell exist. Bulls are hopeless


If you think we are still hopeless after all the major changes that have been made then why bother? This is best time to have hope in years.
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Re: It's early, but Already Time to show COBY WHITE some Appreciation in Chicago 

Post#44 » by Magic beans » Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:10 pm

sco wrote:
GusFring wrote:Playmaking is a coveted skill actually. Ever hear of LeBron? It's kind of hard to care about Coby White when we've been tanking for years and young players like Luka and Donovan Mitchell exist. Bulls are hopeless

I think there is some definitional difference between playmaking and being a distributor, and I think you're right. There are 2 related trends in the NBA. First the 3pt shot has become the centerpiece of most offenses, and IMO, good teams have at least 4 guys on the floor who can shoot the 3 at 34%+ (usually, it's the C who is the exception) - so PG's are required to be decent 3pt shooters (especially with the increase in transition 3's). Second, given a shift with guards being even more perimeter oriented than in years past, forwards are taking on more ball handling responsibility - especially the better scoring ones...who need better ball handing skills to get in their positions. Combining that with the 3 ball, and these new playmakers have become adept at the kick-out passes when the double-teamed.

As for Coby, his 3pt shooting was all over the place last year, but showed definite improvement at the end of the season. If he can become a consistent/competent 3pt shooter and also improve his finishing at the rime, I love having a 2 man backcourt who can score both at both levels.


I’m a Coby fan, how can any Bulls fan not be impressed with his late season form? And playing under Boylen?
Coby has always been a pure scorer. He's the all time leading scorer in North Carolina High School history, passed THE Michael Jordan for freshmen scoring record at UNC, as well as most 3pts made by a freshman in school history.

The man is a professional scorer if there ever was one. He started slow at UNC too but quickly adjusted similar to what we were seeing in NBA.

I definitely want him on this roster but I’m not opposed to drafting another point guard. Ideally Haliburton.

Coby definitely deserves our faith with More minutes running the offence.
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Re: It's early, but Already Time to show COBY WHITE some Appreciation in Chicago 

Post#45 » by sco » Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:17 pm

Magic beans wrote:
sco wrote:
GusFring wrote:Playmaking is a coveted skill actually. Ever hear of LeBron? It's kind of hard to care about Coby White when we've been tanking for years and young players like Luka and Donovan Mitchell exist. Bulls are hopeless

I think there is some definitional difference between playmaking and being a distributor, and I think you're right. There are 2 related trends in the NBA. First the 3pt shot has become the centerpiece of most offenses, and IMO, good teams have at least 4 guys on the floor who can shoot the 3 at 34%+ (usually, it's the C who is the exception) - so PG's are required to be decent 3pt shooters (especially with the increase in transition 3's). Second, given a shift with guards being even more perimeter oriented than in years past, forwards are taking on more ball handling responsibility - especially the better scoring ones...who need better ball handing skills to get in their positions. Combining that with the 3 ball, and these new playmakers have become adept at the kick-out passes when the double-teamed.

As for Coby, his 3pt shooting was all over the place last year, but showed definite improvement at the end of the season. If he can become a consistent/competent 3pt shooter and also improve his finishing at the rime, I love having a 2 man backcourt who can score both at both levels.


I’m a Coby fan, how can any Bulls fan not be impressed with his late season form? And playing under Boylen?
Coby has always been a pure scorer. He's the all time leading scorer in North Carolina High School history, passed THE Michael Jordan for freshmen scoring record at UNC, as well as most 3pts made by a freshman in school history.

The man is a professional scorer if there ever was one. He started slow at UNC too but quickly adjusted similar to what we were seeing in NBA.

I definitely want him on this roster but I’m not opposed to drafting another point guard. Ideally Haliburton.

Coby definitely deserves our faith with More minutes running the offence.

I'll say he did what you would want from a rookie. While he was bad for much of the season, we saw flashes of good play mixed in. To your point, he had a nice stretch to end the season, but it was WAY to small of a sample set to say he'll be able to maintain that going forward. That said, he improved on his 3pt shot, and finishing better around the rim, which were his biggest weaknesses. His defense, while not great, IMO was above average for a rookie. I get the sense from what I read about him that he is a hard worker on his game and understanding, which, IMO, is the only way he becomes great in the NBA.
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Re: It's early, but Already Time to show COBY WHITE some Appreciation in Chicago 

Post#46 » by Magic beans » Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:54 pm

sco wrote:
Magic beans wrote:
sco wrote:I think there is some definitional difference between playmaking and being a distributor, and I think you're right. There are 2 related trends in the NBA. First the 3pt shot has become the centerpiece of most offenses, and IMO, good teams have at least 4 guys on the floor who can shoot the 3 at 34%+ (usually, it's the C who is the exception) - so PG's are required to be decent 3pt shooters (especially with the increase in transition 3's). Second, given a shift with guards being even more perimeter oriented than in years past, forwards are taking on more ball handling responsibility - especially the better scoring ones...who need better ball handing skills to get in their positions. Combining that with the 3 ball, and these new playmakers have become adept at the kick-out passes when the double-teamed.

As for Coby, his 3pt shooting was all over the place last year, but showed definite improvement at the end of the season. If he can become a consistent/competent 3pt shooter and also improve his finishing at the rime, I love having a 2 man backcourt who can score both at both levels.


I’m a Coby fan, how can any Bulls fan not be impressed with his late season form? And playing under Boylen?
Coby has always been a pure scorer. He's the all time leading scorer in North Carolina High School history, passed THE Michael Jordan for freshmen scoring record at UNC, as well as most 3pts made by a freshman in school history.

The man is a professional scorer if there ever was one. He started slow at UNC too but quickly adjusted similar to what we were seeing in NBA.

I definitely want him on this roster but I’m not opposed to drafting another point guard. Ideally Haliburton.

Coby definitely deserves our faith with More minutes running the offence.

I'll say he did what you would want from a rookie. While he was bad for much of the season, we saw flashes of good play mixed in. To your point, he had a nice stretch to end the season, but it was WAY to small of a sample set to say he'll be able to maintain that going forward. That said, he improved on his 3pt shot, and finishing better around the rim, which were his biggest weaknesses. His defense, while not great, IMO was above average for a rookie. I get the sense from what I read about him that he is a hard worker on his game and understanding, which, IMO, is the only way he becomes great in the NBA.


I have enough faith left to believe under an improved coaching situation Coby will continue to improve his all around game.
I see him as a combo guard as opposed to a classic point guard. My concerns with him being his passing ability and defence. Both of which could well improve with further development.
Would like to see more sample sizes of LaVine running the offence and Coby off the ball and switching intermittently throughout the game. Should we draft a point guard ( example Haliburton ) is it possible to start all three players? Both sides of the floor?
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Re: It's early, but Already Time to show COBY WHITE some Appreciation in Chicago 

Post#47 » by sco » Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:59 pm

Magic beans wrote:
sco wrote:
Magic beans wrote:
I’m a Coby fan, how can any Bulls fan not be impressed with his late season form? And playing under Boylen?
Coby has always been a pure scorer. He's the all time leading scorer in North Carolina High School history, passed THE Michael Jordan for freshmen scoring record at UNC, as well as most 3pts made by a freshman in school history.

The man is a professional scorer if there ever was one. He started slow at UNC too but quickly adjusted similar to what we were seeing in NBA.

I definitely want him on this roster but I’m not opposed to drafting another point guard. Ideally Haliburton.

Coby definitely deserves our faith with More minutes running the offence.

I'll say he did what you would want from a rookie. While he was bad for much of the season, we saw flashes of good play mixed in. To your point, he had a nice stretch to end the season, but it was WAY to small of a sample set to say he'll be able to maintain that going forward. That said, he improved on his 3pt shot, and finishing better around the rim, which were his biggest weaknesses. His defense, while not great, IMO was above average for a rookie. I get the sense from what I read about him that he is a hard worker on his game and understanding, which, IMO, is the only way he becomes great in the NBA.


I have enough faith left to believe under an improved coaching situation Coby will continue to improve his all around game.
I see him as a combo guard as opposed to a classic point guard. My concerns with him being his passing ability and defence. Both of which could well improve with further development.
Would like to see more sample sizes of LaVine running the offence and Coby off the ball and switching intermittently throughout the game. Should we draft a point guard ( example Haliburton ) is it possible to start all three players? Both sides of the floor?

Meh, I'm not focused on classic "distributor" PG. That role can now be played by any position or even distributed among them. That said, I am firmly in the "draft the guy who has the chance to be the best player" camp (which is different from BPA in that he may not be great right now) - regardless of what position he plays or who he might replace from the current roster.
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Re: It's early, but Already Time to show COBY WHITE some Appreciation in Chicago 

Post#48 » by Just_Bullz » Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:19 am

If not because we have D.Rose as a reference point for PG, Coby would have been the fan favourite. D.Rose sets the bar really high for all future Chicago PGs.

But that aside, Coby is going in the right direction. Yes, he plays below the rim and can't leap like Morant or Westbrook but he has the uncanny ability to create his own shots, attack and contort his way to the basket while absorbing contact which is a premium in today's league.

I'm sure he will bulk up a bit to handle the physicality of the NBA along with improving the basics in handling and distributing the ball etc.

He doesn't have to be a pass first 8-10 apg PG if this team can figure out in sharing the ball more where I see a Denver template going forward. Somewhere in the 5-6 apg region is totally fine for Coby.

18/5/5, 45/38/80 is easily within his reach as a sophomore in my opinion. That's on par with Jamal Murray during his second year in the league.
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Re: It's early, but Already Time to show COBY WHITE some Appreciation in Chicago 

Post#49 » by Michael Jackson » Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:05 pm

Just_Bullz wrote:If not because we have D.Rose as a reference point for PG, Coby would have been the fan favourite. D.Rose sets the bar really high for all future Chicago PGs.

But that aside, Coby is going in the right direction. Yes, he plays below the rim and can't leap like Morant or Westbrook but he has the uncanny ability to create his own shots, attack and contort his way to the basket while absorbing contact which is a premium in today's league.

I'm sure he will bulk up a bit to handle the physicality of the NBA along with improving the basics in handling and distributing the ball etc.

He doesn't have to be a pass first 8-10 apg PG if this team can figure out in sharing the ball more where I see a Denver template going forward. Somewhere in the 5-6 apg region is totally fine for Coby.

18/5/5, 45/38/80 is easily within his reach as a sophomore in my opinion. That's on par with Jamal Murray during his second year in the league.



If only we could get someone from Denver’s management team in our front office to help with that Denver template.


I really like Coby White. That being said I don’t have any kind of read of how good he can be yet. He isn’t a natural game changer like Morant is, but he has some really good skills and if he keeps developing he can be a really good player. If he starts to rest on his laurels he won’t be very memorable. I think his work ethic looks good though and he has a desire to improve. I’ll take him all day everyday over the two PG’s Cleveland has.
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Re: It's early, but Already Time to show COBY WHITE some Appreciation in Chicago 

Post#50 » by bledredwine » Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:49 pm

The majority of the best players in the league-

Steph, Westbrook, Giannis, Lebron, Jokic, Harden, yes Lillard, Paul, uninjured Wall, etc

All playmake. We don’t need a bunch of iso players. This is why Zach and Coby get that hate. I love Coby, but our goal isn’t to be the Timberwolves.
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Playoffs- to age 27
MJ 35.4 PPG
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Re: It's early, but Already Time to show COBY WHITE some Appreciation in Chicago 

Post#51 » by wonderboy2 » Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:59 pm

I hate pass first pg in today’s NBA because they are usually never effective. The best pgs are aggressive and get buckets but can pass when necessary. Steve Nash, Chris Paul, you can say are pass first pgs but they could drop 30 on you on any given night. But the best point guards in today’s NBA are the agressive point guards. I don’t want anymore Satos on this team.
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Re: It's early, but Already Time to show COBY WHITE some Appreciation in Chicago 

Post#52 » by MrSparkle » Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:06 pm

bledredwine wrote:The majority of the best players in the league-

Steph, Westbrook, Giannis, Lebron, Jokic, Harden, yes Lillard, Paul, uninjured Wall, etc

All playmake. We don’t need a bunch of iso players. This is why Zach and Coby get that hate. I love Coby, but our goal isn’t to be the Timberwolves.


This is true, however I totally disagree with this locked-in viewpoint that Coby has tunnel vision. He was totally told to shoot with a green light. When he's been asked to pass, he does well. I don't think the March 1-15 performance was a fluke. It just looked like he finally got to run with a reasonable line-up instead of playing SF with Arci, Dunn and Thad.

Totally not expecting Chris Paul, but he's one of the few bright spots on the team. I don't like the idea of him being a 6th man or starting SG. I like the idea of him being a starting PG.

But, I don't think it's time to show him appreciation. His season %s were awful. I hope he has a much better sophomore campaign.
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Re: It's early, but Already Time to show COBY WHITE some Appreciation in Chicago 

Post#53 » by wonderboy2 » Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:06 pm

Here a look at the top point guards in the assist they average for there career. Stephen Curry, Lillard, Lowry are around 6 assist a game for their careers. Kemba Walker averages around 5 assist a game for his career. I have no doubt With more playing time and experience and better teammates and chemist Coby can get to 5-6 assist per game.
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Re: It's early, but Already Time to show COBY WHITE some Appreciation in Chicago 

Post#54 » by bledredwine » Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:48 pm

MrSparkle wrote:
bledredwine wrote:The majority of the best players in the league-

Steph, Westbrook, Giannis, Lebron, Jokic, Harden, yes Lillard, Paul, uninjured Wall, etc

All playmake. We don’t need a bunch of iso players. This is why Zach and Coby get that hate. I love Coby, but our goal isn’t to be the Timberwolves.


This is true, however I totally disagree with this locked-in viewpoint that Coby has tunnel vision. He was totally told to shoot with a green light. When he's been asked to pass, he does well. I don't think the March 1-15 performance was a fluke. It just looked like he finally got to run with a reasonable line-up instead of playing SF with Arci, Dunn and Thad.

Totally not expecting Chris Paul, but he's one of the few bright spots on the team. I don't like the idea of him being a 6th man or starting SG. I like the idea of him being a starting PG.

But, I don't think it's time to show him appreciation. His season %s were awful. I hope he has a much better sophomore campaign.


I agree 100% and I love Coby.

But simply put, we have to see what he does in upcoming years before debating. For now, I want to keep him as he’s very talented. I see high’ish upside.
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dice wrote:James Harden is currently in the same league as Michael Jordan as a scorer.



Playoffs- to age 27
MJ 35.4 PPG
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LBJ 27% in the clutch in the Finals: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1651184
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Re: It's early, but Already Time to show COBY WHITE some Appreciation in Chicago 

Post#55 » by kodo » Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:03 pm

Also important to note about Coby's APG stat, he is not a Point Guard, as defined by a player playing the 1. He has never played PG for the team known as the Chicago Bulls.

It can even be argued that he's really our Small Forward.

Coby's most used lineups:
1. PG - Sato, SG - Lavine, SF - Coby
2. PG - Sato, SG - Lavine, SF - Coby
3. PG - Arci SG - Dunn SF - Coby
4. PG - Sato SG - Lavine SF - Coby
5. PG - Sato SG - Coby SF - Chandler

You have to get to the 5th lineup before Coby is anything other than a 3rd ballhandler on the perimeter, and that lineup played a total of 39 minutes on the season.

Before blasting a 19 year old kid for not having a point guard's APG, the team should actually play him at PG.
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Re: It's early, but Already Time to show COBY WHITE some Appreciation in Chicago 

Post#56 » by MrSparkle » Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:17 pm

kodo wrote:Also important to note about Coby's APG stat, he is not a Point Guard, as defined by a player playing the 1. He has never played PG for the team known as the Chicago Bulls.

It can even be argued that he's really our Small Forward.

Coby's most used lineups:
1. PG - Sato, SG - Lavine, SF - Coby
2. PG - Sato, SG - Lavine, SF - Coby
3. PG - Arci SG - Dunn SF - Coby
4. PG - Sato SG - Lavine SF - Coby
5. PG - Sato SG - Coby SF - Chandler

You have to get to the 5th lineup before Coby is anything other than a 3rd ballhandler on the perimeter, and that lineup played a total of 39 minutes on the season.

Before blasting a 19 year old kid for not having a point guard's APG, the team should actually play him at PG.


Yep.

Well, he did have 1 game where he officially started at PG (last game, against the Cavs)... From North Carolina... they beat the Cavs. And that was with our offensive "savior" LaVine sitting out.

The starting line-up was:

Coby
Shaq
Valentine
Lauri
Wendell

Otto, Sato, Gafford, Thad on the bench

And honestly it was one of the better games I watched all season. Ball was moving fast; almost everyone in the starting lineup had double figures. Coby did have 9 turnovers, but Luka had 11 in a playoff game, so ... :dontknow:

I maintained all year, let Coby play through some turnovers. If it gets worse and worse throughout the season, then ditch the idea. But to wait until mid-March in a horrendous season to give him a chance over Sato...? :noway:
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Re: It's early, but Already Time to show COBY WHITE some Appreciation in Chicago 

Post#57 » by TeamMan » Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:39 pm

The only really big mistake that the new FO can make is to not recognize how lucky they are to have Coby.

he (outside of a major injury) will be the Bulls next great player.

Period.

They could make it go faster by getting a great 3-and-D player at the 2.

And actually Zach could be that player if he puts more focus on D.

But there are other players in the NBA that could fill that role.
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Re: It's early, but Already Time to show COBY WHITE some Appreciation in Chicago 

Post#58 » by sco » Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:02 am

TeamMan wrote:The only really big mistake that the new FO can make is to not recognize how lucky they are to have Coby.

he (outside of a major injury) will be the Bulls next great player.

Period.

They could make it go faster by getting a great 3-and-D player at the 2.

And actually Zach could be that player if he puts more focus on D.

But there are other players in the NBA that could fill that role.

IMO, the biggest mistake the FO could make would be to think that they shouldn't draft the best player because they think they are lucky to have Coby. Don't get me wrong, he COULD become great, BUT so far he's shown that he is an inconsistent NBA player who had several good games - exactly what one would expect from a rookie.
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Re: It's early, but Already Time to show COBY WHITE some Appreciation in Chicago 

Post#59 » by PaKii94 » Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:57 am

MrSparkle wrote:
kodo wrote:Also important to note about Coby's APG stat, he is not a Point Guard, as defined by a player playing the 1. He has never played PG for the team known as the Chicago Bulls.

It can even be argued that he's really our Small Forward.

Coby's most used lineups:
1. PG - Sato, SG - Lavine, SF - Coby
2. PG - Sato, SG - Lavine, SF - Coby
3. PG - Arci SG - Dunn SF - Coby
4. PG - Sato SG - Lavine SF - Coby
5. PG - Sato SG - Coby SF - Chandler

You have to get to the 5th lineup before Coby is anything other than a 3rd ballhandler on the perimeter, and that lineup played a total of 39 minutes on the season.

Before blasting a 19 year old kid for not having a point guard's APG, the team should actually play him at PG.



Yep.

Well, he did have 1 game where he officially started at PG (last game, against the Cavs)... From North Carolina... they beat the Cavs. And that was with our offensive "savior" LaVine sitting out.

The starting line-up was:

Coby
Shaq
Valentine
Lauri
Wendell

Otto, Sato, Gafford, Thad on the bench

And honestly it was one of the better games I watched all season. Ball was moving fast; almost everyone in the starting lineup had double figures. Coby did have 9 turnovers, but Luka had 11 in a playoff game, so ... :dontknow:

I maintained all year, let Coby play through some turnovers. If it gets worse and worse throughout the season, then ditch the idea. But to wait until mid-March in a horrendous season to give him a chance over Sato...? :noway:


We actually have a slightly bigger sample size. Coby took over lead guard role when Lavine sat out (5 games).

He averaged 6 apg to 3 to. So 3 ast/to ratio. I'm not ruling him out yet.

Coby definitely was told to be a scorer/sg earlier on and used off ball a lot more. As with the rest of the team (due to the **** offense), he struggled off ball.


People put him in the same empty scorer category as Lavine ( I used to also ) but Coby when he got to playmake was a positive to the team unlike Lavine with his 30+% usage and 4.2 assists to 3.4 TOs
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Re: It's early, but Already Time to show COBY WHITE some Appreciation in Chicago 

Post#60 » by drosereturn » Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:12 pm

bledredwine wrote:The majority of the best players in the league-

Steph, Westbrook, Giannis, Lebron, Jokic, Harden, yes Lillard, Paul, uninjured Wall, etc

All playmake. We don’t need a bunch of iso players. This is why Zach and Coby get that hate. I love Coby, but our goal isn’t to be the Timberwolves.



Exactly. Not even counting assist number but Lavine and White are bottom 90 percent when it come to play making and the rest of the players suck at creating so the Bulls are fked. Always hated iso scorers even Harden but guys like Lavine is making people hate on Lauri and White bc he is not doing his job as a primary Ball handler. If White played with Paul, Doncic he could make the all star but I will blame him every time as a scapegoat bc he was drafted pg.

Someone like Valentine also has putrid number but you can tell he is decades ahead of White.
If a guard cannot play make, you better have a point forward like Doncic.Getting Deni is a joke if you think he will solve this mess.
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