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who do you NOT want in this draft?

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Who do you NOT want in this draft?

Anthony Edwards
1
1%
James Wiseman
9
9%
Lamelo Ball
38
39%
Deni Adjiva
12
12%
Obi Toppin
19
19%
Killian Hayes
8
8%
Onyeka Okongwu
4
4%
Tyrese Haliburton
4
4%
Devin Vassel
0
No votes
Cole Anthony
3
3%
 
Total votes: 98

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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#61 » by Jcool0 » Sat Sep 5, 2020 5:07 am

2018C3 wrote:One thing that seems weird to me, is most you guys hated Pax/Gar.

Think to yourself who would Pax/ Gar pick? If you are objective in you reasoning, the Pax/Gar pick definitely would be Deni!


What makes you think they go with Deni? Especially if Tyrese Haliburton is available.
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#62 » by Pistol King » Sun Sep 6, 2020 5:33 pm

2018C3 wrote:I still think the bust potential of Deni is really high. I believe the team who drafts him will regret that decision in within three years time.

There will be a player picked within three spots after him that will make his pick look absolutely silly. He is surfing a Luka wave.

You just admitted you didn't watch his games and in the other hand you hurry to confidently claim he has a high bust potential. That's not wise. Seriously realgm became a hard place to read for me recently, regarding to Deni, to the point I don't even have motivation to answer. I appreciate fair criticism and when people trying to analyze the good and the bad things, trying to evaluate a player and analyze what strides he should make to become a star (if he's projected to go that high, he must have high quality skills according to professional teams), but I have a problem when the default of the conversation is hating a player and build the explanations around this hating, and for someone like me who watched tons of his games it's clear who hate him and who really make effort to evaluate him in objective way.

I'll share with you guys just little example of the wrong way I think people evaluating international prospects. Someone like Poku who is certainly intriguing, 7'0 with some passing and handling skills for a player his size, but weights only 200lb, not fast enough to guard even SF's at the second Greek division and proved nothing against high level competition, considered by some draft fans as a 'guard/wing', but at the same time I've seen the same people views Deni, who is certainly faster, stronger, better ball handler and much proven, as a PF. I repeat, A slow footed (compared to guards/wings) 7'0 who has shown no evidence on handling the ball against a high level competition, and who hasn't proved he can guard wings on his semi professional competition, is considered by those people as a wing, but Deni, who guarded oftenly the opponent point/second guards in the Euroleague, is considered a twiner/PF and what not. You have no idea how frustrating is to read it from aside. And I read those conversations on daily basis on twitter, here, reddit, everywhere.

I've said it already million times but I'll say it again because it seems it's hard for people to get this crucial point. While players like Hayes, Poku, LaMelo, Edwards etc. have played in a very weak teams and as a result could be the focal point of their teams, in this situation they had the ability to do a lot of mistakes, to take risks, to gain confidence, and as a result to fill their highlights and stats. Deni basically has played with tight hands behind his back comparing to the other top prospects in this class. He could be thrown to the bench after every little mistake, and he has zero chance to show elite offensive skills in his situation when he can't grow through mistakes. I always saying it, put Hayes in Maccabi Tel Aviv and I doubt he will see more than 10 minutes per game. Why is that? because there is no way Giannis Sfairopoulos (Maccabi's coach) is going to give to a teenager who is turn over pron and isn't a high level scorer (atm), a bigger role. Now imagine how drastically his confidence, his creativity and his 'flashy' game would be decreased in such situation. This is how it works in teams like Maccabi Tel Aviv who don't have patience to develop players, no matter how talented they are. Put LaMelo on this team and he will not see more than 10 minutes. There is no way Sfairopoulos would give a non shooter who play no defense to see playing time on his roster. We all saw how tougher it was for RJ Hampton to play for a better team with some winning aspirations. Believe it or not, Maccabi is one of the most pressured organizations in the world. Every lose for them, even in a meaningless game, is kinda a disaster. The reason Deni earned his minutes was only because of his elite versatility. He was like 2 players on the court for Maccabi at times, and while some people questionable his MVP Israeli League award, he had the most ppg, the most PER and the most BIPM on his team, which was the best team in the league. Dude had led the best team in the league both in PPG and PER, as a 19 yers old, and yet those people questioned his MVP award.

People always make that mistake and evaluating Deni according to the competition. According to what my eyes saw through out all the games I've watched, the competition has never been the real challenge for him, whether in the Euroleague or in the Israeli league, his real challenge was to see playing time and gain a bigger role when he compete for minutes with experienced players who brought in with a lot of money to help them win now. While also Deni is projected to go to the NBA next year so they don't even have motivation to develop him or built him for the future. For me the fact he ended up one of the best players for a team like Maccabi despite all the challenges, is super impressive.

If he was getting from his coach in the Euroleague the same treatment he got in the Israeli league, there is no chance his stats wouldn't be much higher. There are not a lot of players in the Euroleague with Deni's skillset. All he needed was confidence from his coach. His coach started to give him big minutes only when the team started to suffer from injuries. Which clearly showing, his coach 'played safe' and was afraid to take the risk and let him grow through mistakes and he rather do it with the more experienced/less talented players. When he 'forced' to let him play, he didn't regret it and Deni was one of the main reasons Maccabi stayed a top 5 Euroleague and a contender team despite their injuries, and he's a main reason they won the Israeli title despite those injuries (at some point in the playoffs they have suffered from so many injuries to the point they have been considered the underdogs).

Now to end all this long scroll, let's back again to my third paragraph, when people watch Deni's highlights they mistakenly see a player who more than often play kinda limited role, and make a 'role player' plays, compared to the other prospects who was playing in a much weaker rosters and as a result fill their tapes in flashy and risky plays which shows Deni in a 'negative' way. They immediately fail to the trap and compare him to Saric or Hezonija and calling him 'master of non'. It has nothing to do with his real projection. Deni moves his feet well for a player his size, he handles the ball well for a player his size, he sees the court well for a player his size, he runs the open court well for a player his size, he rebound well, he pass well, he has a good touch and he has the work ethic, from now on it's all about finally getting the chance to grow through mistakes and getting the chance to take risks (he always mention it on his interviews). He didn't have that so far unlike the other prospects in this class, that's why I also project him to actually master his personal skills (shot creation off the dribble, passing, 1v1 scoring) the most and get them to the next level.
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#63 » by Little Nathan » Sun Sep 6, 2020 5:52 pm

Jcool0 wrote:Both cant shoot to save their lives.


Lonzo isn't Steph Curry, but he has become a decent shooter on good volume this season. Don't really understand how people still view him as a non-shooter, it's simply not true.
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#64 » by kodo » Sun Sep 6, 2020 6:15 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
2018C3 wrote:One thing that seems weird to me, is most you guys hated Pax/Gar.

Think to yourself who would Pax/ Gar pick? If you are objective in you reasoning, the Pax/Gar pick definitely would be Deni!


What makes you think they go with Deni? Especially if Tyrese Haliburton is available.


They would probably pick Obi Toppin. They tend to go for successful college players with a high pick. Markkanen was 32-5, Wendell 29-8, Coby was 29-7, McDermott was 27-8. Rose 38-2. Lu was 31-6. Ben 33-6. Captain Kirk 30-8. Both LMA & Tyrus had good seasons, this was probably a tough one for Paxson.

Tyrese at 12-20 would be an unusual high pick for GarPax IMO.
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#65 » by JohnnyKILLroy » Sun Sep 6, 2020 6:48 pm

Lamelo running away with it......yay!!! - this board is smarter than it feels!!!!
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#66 » by d boy gentleman » Sun Sep 6, 2020 7:00 pm

kodo wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:
2018C3 wrote:One thing that seems weird to me, is most you guys hated Pax/Gar.

Think to yourself who would Pax/ Gar pick? If you are objective in you reasoning, the Pax/Gar pick definitely would be Deni!


What makes you think they go with Deni? Especially if Tyrese Haliburton is available.


They would probably pick Obi Toppin. They tend to go for successful college players with a high pick. Markkanen was 32-5, Wendell 29-8, Coby was 29-7, McDermott was 27-8. Rose 38-2. Lu was 31-6. Ben 33-6. Captain Kirk 30-8. Both LMA & Tyrus had good seasons, this was probably a tough one for Paxson.

Tyrese at 12-20 would be an unusual high pick for GarPax IMO.


Obi would definitely have been the pick if GarPax was at the helm. You're right about that
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#67 » by Jcool0 » Sun Sep 6, 2020 7:11 pm

Little Nathan wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:Both cant shoot to save their lives.


Lonzo isn't Steph Curry, but he has become a decent shooter on good volume this season. Don't really understand how people still view him as a non-shooter, it's simply not true.


In the last 7 games Lonzo shot 30% from the field and 28% from 3.
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#68 » by Little Nathan » Sun Sep 6, 2020 8:04 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
Little Nathan wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:Both cant shoot to save their lives.


Lonzo isn't Steph Curry, but he has become a decent shooter on good volume this season. Don't really understand how people still view him as a non-shooter, it's simply not true.


In the last 7 games Lonzo shot 30% from the field and 28% from 3.


Okay? Doesn't change the fact he was a decent shooter from deep this season and far away from a guy who "can't shoot to save his life".
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#69 » by Jcool0 » Sun Sep 6, 2020 8:15 pm

Little Nathan wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:
Little Nathan wrote:
Lonzo isn't Steph Curry, but he has become a decent shooter on good volume this season. Don't really understand how people still view him as a non-shooter, it's simply not true.


In the last 7 games Lonzo shot 30% from the field and 28% from 3.


Okay? Doesn't change the fact he was a decent shooter this season, especially from deep.


He shot worse from the field this year then last year. He is not a decent shooter. No one is worried about him taking a shot.
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#70 » by Little Nathan » Sun Sep 6, 2020 8:22 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
Little Nathan wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:
In the last 7 games Lonzo shot 30% from the field and 28% from 3.


Okay? Doesn't change the fact he was a decent shooter this season, especially from deep.


He shot worse from the field this year then last year. He is not a decent shooter. No one is worried about him taking a shot.


Edited my post before you replied to make clear that I'm only talking about his 3-point-shooting. Not arguing that he's a bad finisher, but we were talking about shooting.

2+ makes from deep per game at ~37% is decent, that's not even worth discussing.
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#71 » by Chi town » Sun Sep 6, 2020 8:26 pm

Pistol King wrote:
2018C3 wrote:I still think the bust potential of Deni is really high. I believe the team who drafts him will regret that decision in within three years time.

There will be a player picked within three spots after him that will make his pick look absolutely silly. He is surfing a Luka wave.

You just admitted you didn't watch his games and in the other hand you hurry to confidently claim he has a high bust potential. That's not wise. Seriously realgm became a hard place to read for me recently, regarding to Deni, to the point I don't even have motivation to answer. I appreciate fair criticism and when people trying to analyze the good and the bad things, trying to evaluate a player and analyze what strides he should make to become a star (if he's projected to go that high, he must have high quality skills according to professional teams), but I have a problem when the default of the conversation is hating a player and build the explanations around this hating, and for someone like me who watched tons of his games it's clear who hate him and who really make effort to evaluate him in objective way.

I'll share with you guys just little example of the wrong way I think people evaluating international prospects. Someone like Poku who is certainly intriguing, 7'0 with some passing and handling skills for a player his size, but weights only 200lb, not fast enough to guard even SF's at the second Greek division and proved nothing against high level competition, considered by some draft fans as a 'guard/wing', but at the same time I've seen the same people views Deni, who is certainly faster, stronger, better ball handler and much proven, as a PF. I repeat, A slow footed (compared to guards/wings) 7'0 who has shown no evidence on handling the ball against a high level competition, and who hasn't proved he can guard wings on his semi professional competition, is considered by those people as a wing, but Deni, who guarded oftenly the opponent point/second guards in the Euroleague, is considered a twiner/PF and what not. You have no idea how frustrating is to read it from aside. And I read those conversations on daily basis on twitter, here, reddit, everywhere.

I've said it already million times but I'll say it again because it seems it's hard for people to get this crucial point. While players like Hayes, Poku, LaMelo, Edwards etc. have played in a very weak teams and as a result could be the focal point of their teams, in this situation they had the ability to do a lot of mistakes, to take risks, to gain confidence, and as a result to fill their highlights and stats. Deni basically has played with tight hands behind his back comparing to the other top prospects in this class. He could be thrown to the bench after every little mistake, and he has zero chance to show elite offensive skills in his situation when he can't grow through mistakes. I always saying it, put Hayes in Maccabi Tel Aviv and I doubt he will see more than 10 minutes per game. Why is that? because there is no way Giannis Sfairopoulos (Maccabi's coach) is going to give to a teenager who is turn over pron and isn't a high level scorer (atm), a bigger role. Now imagine how drastically his confidence, his creativity and his 'flashy' game would be decreased in such situation. This is how it works in teams like Maccabi Tel Aviv who don't have patience to develop players, no matter how talented they are. Put LaMelo on this team and he will not see more than 10 minutes. There is no way Sfairopoulos would give a non shooter who play no defense to see playing time on his roster. We all saw how tougher it was for RJ Hampton to play for a better team with some winning aspirations. Believe it or not, Maccabi is one of the most pressured organizations in the world. Every lose for them, even in a meaningless game, is kinda a disaster. The reason Deni earned his minutes was only because of his elite versatility. He was like 2 players on the court for Maccabi at times, and while some people questionable his MVP Israeli League award, he had the most ppg, the most PER and the most BIPM on his team, which was the best team in the league. Dude had led the best team in the league both in PPG and PER, as a 19 yers old, and yet those people questioned his MVP award.

People always make that mistake and evaluating Deni according to the competition. According to what my eyes saw through out all the games I've watched, the competition has never been the real challenge for him, whether in the Euroleague or in the Israeli league, his real challenge was to see playing time and gain a bigger role when he compete for minutes with experienced players who brought in with a lot of money to help them win now. While also Deni is projected to go to the NBA next year so they don't even have motivation to develop him or built him for the future. For me the fact he ended up one of the best players for a team like Maccabi despite all the challenges, is super impressive.

If he was getting from his coach in the Euroleague the same treatment he got in the Israeli league, there is no chance his stats wouldn't be much higher. There are not a lot of players in the Euroleague with Deni's skillset. All he needed was confidence from his coach. His coach started to give him big minutes only when the team started to suffer from injuries. Which clearly showing, his coach 'played safe' and was afraid to take the risk and let him grow through mistakes and he rather do it with the more experienced/less talented players. When he 'forced' to let him play, he didn't regret it and Deni was one of the main reasons Maccabi stayed a top 5 Euroleague and a contender team despite their injuries, and he's a main reason they won the Israeli title despite those injuries (at some point in the playoffs they have suffered from so many injuries to the point they have been considered the underdogs).

Now to end all this long scroll, let's back again to my third paragraph, when people watch Deni's highlights they mistakenly see a player who more than often play kinda limited role, and make a 'role player' plays, compared to the other prospects who was playing in a much weaker rosters and as a result fill their tapes in flashy and risky plays which shows Deni in a 'negative' way. They immediately fail to the trap and compare him to Saric or Hezonija and calling him 'master of non'. It has nothing to do with his real projection. Deni moves his feet well for a player his size, he handles the ball well for a player his size, he sees the court well for a player his size, he runs the open court well for a player his size, he rebound well, he pass well, he has a good touch and he has the work ethic, from now on it's all about finally getting the chance to grow through mistakes and getting the chance to take risks (he always mention it on his interviews). He didn't have that so far unlike the other prospects in this class, that's why I also project him to actually master his personal skills (shot creation off the dribble, passing, 1v1 scoring) the most and get them to the next level.


Great read, Pistol!
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#72 » by sco » Sun Sep 6, 2020 10:42 pm

Chi town wrote:
Pistol King wrote:
2018C3 wrote:I still think the bust potential of Deni is really high. I believe the team who drafts him will regret that decision in within three years time.

There will be a player picked within three spots after him that will make his pick look absolutely silly. He is surfing a Luka wave.

You just admitted you didn't watch his games and in the other hand you hurry to confidently claim he has a high bust potential. That's not wise. Seriously realgm became a hard place to read for me recently, regarding to Deni, to the point I don't even have motivation to answer. I appreciate fair criticism and when people trying to analyze the good and the bad things, trying to evaluate a player and analyze what strides he should make to become a star (if he's projected to go that high, he must have high quality skills according to professional teams), but I have a problem when the default of the conversation is hating a player and build the explanations around this hating, and for someone like me who watched tons of his games it's clear who hate him and who really make effort to evaluate him in objective way.

I'll share with you guys just little example of the wrong way I think people evaluating international prospects. Someone like Poku who is certainly intriguing, 7'0 with some passing and handling skills for a player his size, but weights only 200lb, not fast enough to guard even SF's at the second Greek division and proved nothing against high level competition, considered by some draft fans as a 'guard/wing', but at the same time I've seen the same people views Deni, who is certainly faster, stronger, better ball handler and much proven, as a PF. I repeat, A slow footed (compared to guards/wings) 7'0 who has shown no evidence on handling the ball against a high level competition, and who hasn't proved he can guard wings on his semi professional competition, is considered by those people as a wing, but Deni, who guarded oftenly the opponent point/second guards in the Euroleague, is considered a twiner/PF and what not. You have no idea how frustrating is to read it from aside. And I read those conversations on daily basis on twitter, here, reddit, everywhere.

I've said it already million times but I'll say it again because it seems it's hard for people to get this crucial point. While players like Hayes, Poku, LaMelo, Edwards etc. have played in a very weak teams and as a result could be the focal point of their teams, in this situation they had the ability to do a lot of mistakes, to take risks, to gain confidence, and as a result to fill their highlights and stats. Deni basically has played with tight hands behind his back comparing to the other top prospects in this class. He could be thrown to the bench after every little mistake, and he has zero chance to show elite offensive skills in his situation when he can't grow through mistakes. I always saying it, put Hayes in Maccabi Tel Aviv and I doubt he will see more than 10 minutes per game. Why is that? because there is no way Giannis Sfairopoulos (Maccabi's coach) is going to give to a teenager who is turn over pron and isn't a high level scorer (atm), a bigger role. Now imagine how drastically his confidence, his creativity and his 'flashy' game would be decreased in such situation. This is how it works in teams like Maccabi Tel Aviv who don't have patience to develop players, no matter how talented they are. Put LaMelo on this team and he will not see more than 10 minutes. There is no way Sfairopoulos would give a non shooter who play no defense to see playing time on his roster. We all saw how tougher it was for RJ Hampton to play for a better team with some winning aspirations. Believe it or not, Maccabi is one of the most pressured organizations in the world. Every lose for them, even in a meaningless game, is kinda a disaster. The reason Deni earned his minutes was only because of his elite versatility. He was like 2 players on the court for Maccabi at times, and while some people questionable his MVP Israeli League award, he had the most ppg, the most PER and the most BIPM on his team, which was the best team in the league. Dude had led the best team in the league both in PPG and PER, as a 19 yers old, and yet those people questioned his MVP award.

People always make that mistake and evaluating Deni according to the competition. According to what my eyes saw through out all the games I've watched, the competition has never been the real challenge for him, whether in the Euroleague or in the Israeli league, his real challenge was to see playing time and gain a bigger role when he compete for minutes with experienced players who brought in with a lot of money to help them win now. While also Deni is projected to go to the NBA next year so they don't even have motivation to develop him or built him for the future. For me the fact he ended up one of the best players for a team like Maccabi despite all the challenges, is super impressive.

If he was getting from his coach in the Euroleague the same treatment he got in the Israeli league, there is no chance his stats wouldn't be much higher. There are not a lot of players in the Euroleague with Deni's skillset. All he needed was confidence from his coach. His coach started to give him big minutes only when the team started to suffer from injuries. Which clearly showing, his coach 'played safe' and was afraid to take the risk and let him grow through mistakes and he rather do it with the more experienced/less talented players. When he 'forced' to let him play, he didn't regret it and Deni was one of the main reasons Maccabi stayed a top 5 Euroleague and a contender team despite their injuries, and he's a main reason they won the Israeli title despite those injuries (at some point in the playoffs they have suffered from so many injuries to the point they have been considered the underdogs).

Now to end all this long scroll, let's back again to my third paragraph, when people watch Deni's highlights they mistakenly see a player who more than often play kinda limited role, and make a 'role player' plays, compared to the other prospects who was playing in a much weaker rosters and as a result fill their tapes in flashy and risky plays which shows Deni in a 'negative' way. They immediately fail to the trap and compare him to Saric or Hezonija and calling him 'master of non'. It has nothing to do with his real projection. Deni moves his feet well for a player his size, he handles the ball well for a player his size, he sees the court well for a player his size, he runs the open court well for a player his size, he rebound well, he pass well, he has a good touch and he has the work ethic, from now on it's all about finally getting the chance to grow through mistakes and getting the chance to take risks (he always mention it on his interviews). He didn't have that so far unlike the other prospects in this class, that's why I also project him to actually master his personal skills (shot creation off the dribble, passing, 1v1 scoring) the most and get them to the next level.


Great read, Pistol!

Agree. Hope you're right. I still don't buy the argument that just because other prospects would look worse in Israel, that Deni, a guy who looks slow to me (sorry) and, more importantly, doesn't have a left hand and is a suspect shooter, will look good in the NBA. I do agree that it's too easy to compare him to other similarly sized Euro's to project his success/failure.
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#73 » by NZB2323 » Mon Sep 7, 2020 1:05 am

Lamelo Ball took 17 shot per game and shot 38%. With White and Lavine we don’t need another guard who shoots like that.
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#74 » by Pistol King » Mon Sep 7, 2020 1:30 am

sco wrote:Agree. Hope you're right. I still don't buy the argument that just because other prospects would look worse in Israel,

Not just in Israel, particularly in Maccabi Tel Aviv, and I extendedly explained why.

that Deni, a guy who looks slow to me (sorry)

Find me one time in the second half of the season, when he really tried on defense and still couldn't guard his opponent, whether it was a point guard, wing or PF. Usually when he failed defensively it was due to lack of effort, lack of focus or being careful because of foul trouble. Not because slow feet. You can argue with me and say he must improve his body shape to be able to guard fast players at the NBA level consistently, I'll be with you on that, you can argue with me and say he's not quick as the typical 6'5 wing in the NBA, I can agree with you on that too, but I'd disagree if you say he's slower than the typical 6'9 NBA player. Not only that, I think he will be quicker than the average 6'9 player. Particularly once his body stop to grow and he learns how to use his body.

and, more importantly, doesn't have a left hand

Finishing with left:

From 0:22':
https://youtu.be/SlM6WlHljUw?t=22

From 2:08':
https://youtu.be/MIRh_bOhMks?t=128

From 2:13':
https://youtu.be/MIRh_bOhMks?t=134

From 4:00':
https://youtu.be/MIRh_bOhMks?t=240

From 0:15':
https://youtu.be/ByFlnkbacfs?t=14

From 2:50':
https://youtu.be/ByFlnkbacfs?t=169

From 12:43':
https://youtu.be/Jl8ldSuDx7k?t=763

It's not that he doesn't have left hand, he just need to learn to use it consistently. Big difference. He dribbles a lot with his left hand and he has shown he can finish with his left as well. He said on the Mike Shmitz breakdown he didn't really pay attention to it (bad coaching). It is fixable.


and is a suspect shooter, will look good in the NBA.

Suspect doesn't mean he can't shoot, right? it just means some people afraid his bad FT indicates he might not be developed into a good shooter. My only advice on this is to watch his full games and see how he shots (especially after the break) and then ask yourself whether with his work ethic he can do the little adjustments needed to completely clean his shot. For me, there are enough reasons to believe he can, he shot ~70% from FT since the break, with higher amount of FT attempts, the form/mechanics looks good, and the touch look good. I still think his biggest need is to strengthen his legs and gain more body control after he learns his body. It will take his whole game to the next level.

I do agree that it's too easy to compare him to other similarly sized Euro's to project his success/failure

Happy we completely agree on something :lol:
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#75 » by Chicagoat » Mon Sep 7, 2020 2:39 am

Personally, I could talk myself into taking most prospect in our range, well besides for Ball. He has too many holes in his game for me to believe that he'll make a good enough jump to become a serviceable shooter.

He also ranked LAST in the NBL in PnR defense. His shooting numbers and shooting form makes want to vomit. And he does not seem like a player with high BBIQ based on the interviews that I seen from him. Mainly the Mike Schimdt one.
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#76 » by drosereturn » Mon Sep 7, 2020 3:12 am

NZB2323 wrote:Lamelo Ball took 17 shot per game and shot 38%. With White and Lavine we don’t need another guard who shoots like that.


What was White's shooting % last again? You do realize attempting 17shots on 38% is better than 12 shots on 39% right??
Ball did it while he was playing 1vs 5 on a team devoid of talent.
He was pretty much forced to be a number 1 option when he like to playmake more unlike White who is a score first guard.
Lamelo will be a future superstar Bull. Book it. Lavar for president!
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#77 » by wonderboy2 » Mon Sep 7, 2020 3:23 am

I think if Ball was European this board would be on his nuts. But since his dad is a loud mouth people try to pick apart his game. He’s definitely better than Hayes. He’s definitely better than this boards Golden boy Satoransky.
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#78 » by 2018C3 » Mon Sep 7, 2020 3:39 am

Pistol King wrote:
2018C3 wrote:I still think the bust potential of Deni is really high. I believe the team who drafts him will regret that decision in within three years time.

There will be a player picked within three spots after him that will make his pick look absolutely silly. He is surfing a Luka wave.

You just admitted you didn't watch his games and in the other hand you hurry to confidently claim he has a high bust potential. That's not wise. Seriously realgm became a hard place to read for me recently, regarding to Deni, to the point I don't even have motivation to answer. I appreciate fair criticism and when people trying to analyze the good and the bad things, trying to evaluate a player and analyze what strides he should make to become a star (if he's projected to go that high, he must have high quality skills according to professional teams), but I have a problem when the default of the conversation is hating a player and build the explanations around this hating, and for someone like me who watched tons of his games it's clear who hate him and who really make effort to evaluate him in objective way.

I'll share with you guys just little example of the wrong way I think people evaluating international prospects. Someone like Poku who is certainly intriguing, 7'0 with some passing and handling skills for a player his size, but weights only 200lb, not fast enough to guard even SF's at the second Greek division and proved nothing against high level competition, considered by some draft fans as a 'guard/wing', but at the same time I've seen the same people views Deni, who is certainly faster, stronger, better ball handler and much proven, as a PF. I repeat, A slow footed (compared to guards/wings) 7'0 who has shown no evidence on handling the ball against a high level competition, and who hasn't proved he can guard wings on his semi professional competition, is considered by those people as a wing, but Deni, who guarded oftenly the opponent point/second guards in the Euroleague, is considered a twiner/PF and what not. You have no idea how frustrating is to read it from aside. And I read those conversations on daily basis on twitter, here, reddit, everywhere.

I've said it already million times but I'll say it again because it seems it's hard for people to get this crucial point. While players like Hayes, Poku, LaMelo, Edwards etc. have played in a very weak teams and as a result could be the focal point of their teams, in this situation they had the ability to do a lot of mistakes, to take risks, to gain confidence, and as a result to fill their highlights and stats. Deni basically has played with tight hands behind his back comparing to the other top prospects in this class. He could be thrown to the bench after every little mistake, and he has zero chance to show elite offensive skills in his situation when he can't grow through mistakes. I always saying it, put Hayes in Maccabi Tel Aviv and I doubt he will see more than 10 minutes per game. Why is that? because there is no way Giannis Sfairopoulos (Maccabi's coach) is going to give to a teenager who is turn over pron and isn't a high level scorer (atm), a bigger role. Now imagine how drastically his confidence, his creativity and his 'flashy' game would be decreased in such situation. This is how it works in teams like Maccabi Tel Aviv who don't have patience to develop players, no matter how talented they are. Put LaMelo on this team and he will not see more than 10 minutes. There is no way Sfairopoulos would give a non shooter who play no defense to see playing time on his roster. We all saw how tougher it was for RJ Hampton to play for a better team with some winning aspirations. Believe it or not, Maccabi is one of the most pressured organizations in the world. Every lose for them, even in a meaningless game, is kinda a disaster. The reason Deni earned his minutes was only because of his elite versatility. He was like 2 players on the court for Maccabi at times, and while some people questionable his MVP Israeli League award, he had the most ppg, the most PER and the most BIPM on his team, which was the best team in the league. Dude had led the best team in the league both in PPG and PER, as a 19 yers old, and yet those people questioned his MVP award.

People always make that mistake and evaluating Deni according to the competition. According to what my eyes saw through out all the games I've watched, the competition has never been the real challenge for him, whether in the Euroleague or in the Israeli league, his real challenge was to see playing time and gain a bigger role when he compete for minutes with experienced players who brought in with a lot of money to help them win now. While also Deni is projected to go to the NBA next year so they don't even have motivation to develop him or built him for the future. For me the fact he ended up one of the best players for a team like Maccabi despite all the challenges, is super impressive.

If he was getting from his coach in the Euroleague the same treatment he got in the Israeli league, there is no chance his stats wouldn't be much higher. There are not a lot of players in the Euroleague with Deni's skillset. All he needed was confidence from his coach. His coach started to give him big minutes only when the team started to suffer from injuries. Which clearly showing, his coach 'played safe' and was afraid to take the risk and let him grow through mistakes and he rather do it with the more experienced/less talented players. When he 'forced' to let him play, he didn't regret it and Deni was one of the main reasons Maccabi stayed a top 5 Euroleague and a contender team despite their injuries, and he's a main reason they won the Israeli title despite those injuries (at some point in the playoffs they have suffered from so many injuries to the point they have been considered the underdogs).

Now to end all this long scroll, let's back again to my third paragraph, when people watch Deni's highlights they mistakenly see a player who more than often play kinda limited role, and make a 'role player' plays, compared to the other prospects who was playing in a much weaker rosters and as a result fill their tapes in flashy and risky plays which shows Deni in a 'negative' way. They immediately fail to the trap and compare him to Saric or Hezonija and calling him 'master of non'. It has nothing to do with his real projection. Deni moves his feet well for a player his size, he handles the ball well for a player his size, he sees the court well for a player his size, he runs the open court well for a player his size, he rebound well, he pass well, he has a good touch and he has the work ethic, from now on it's all about finally getting the chance to grow through mistakes and getting the chance to take risks (he always mention it on his interviews). He didn't have that so far unlike the other prospects in this class, that's why I also project him to actually master his personal skills (shot creation off the dribble, passing, 1v1 scoring) the most and get them to the next level.


Lol, its just a opinion. None of us are being payed for our opinions here. I don't ever like to see race cards called. But if Deni had a darker completion, I serious doubt he would be held in such high regard. The guy has some serious flaws that are being ignored.
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#79 » by BigUps » Mon Sep 7, 2020 3:41 am

So, does this mean the board would be content with Vassell?
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#80 » by BahamaBull » Mon Sep 7, 2020 3:52 am

i dont Ball or Deni...But I think we may end up with of of them :(

My choices are Vassell or Okoro.
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