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who do you NOT want in this draft?

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Who do you NOT want in this draft?

Anthony Edwards
1
1%
James Wiseman
9
9%
Lamelo Ball
38
39%
Deni Adjiva
12
12%
Obi Toppin
19
19%
Killian Hayes
8
8%
Onyeka Okongwu
4
4%
Tyrese Haliburton
4
4%
Devin Vassel
0
No votes
Cole Anthony
3
3%
 
Total votes: 98

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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#81 » by Jcool0 » Mon Sep 7, 2020 3:56 am

BigUps wrote:So, does this mean the board would be content with Vassell?


A 3 & D guy? No thanks.
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#82 » by MrSparkle » Mon Sep 7, 2020 4:09 am

I think the most disappointing player I'd get out of this draft is another one-way liability. I'm so sick of those; whether it's offense (Hutch, Carter, Gafford) or defense (Valentine, Lauri, Dunn, Kornet). I'd rather just sign an undrafted player to a laughable NBA contract if that's the roulette I play. Cause honestly, I don't see what a lot of those guys bring that Arci and Shaq don't.

Give me a tough starter who can:

- Dribble
- Defend
- Rebound
- Pass
- Shoot

With 1 x-factor (either hustle, vision, or clutch genes).

It's tough because the top-6 is red-flag central, but really, like every draft, there will be atleast 1 stud in the top crop. There is never a 100% fail rate at the top of the draft, and frankly, between GSW, CHI and ATL, I don't think all 3 FOs are gonna whiff.

I think I don't want:

Okoro - Cause he's not gonna shoot or create.

Wiseman - Cause he's not gonna shoot or create, and might even be a defensive liability if he doesn't rotate well. But I can see that if all went perfectly well, he is the 2nd most talented prospect.

LaMelo - Dude checks all the boxes theoretically, but I really think he's gonna be a piss-poor shooter like his brother, and worse yet, I think he's going to be soft and injury prone. On the long-shot he actually pans out though, I do "agree" - like Wiseman, LaMelo is the most talented player in this draft minus his playground jump-shot. But then, he's just such a funny case of a project. Like, does he have a clutch gene? He's lost games most his life playing in pro leagues due to his dad's shenanigans, so this guy doesn't even have the success that Deni or Hayes have.

Obi - Defensive flags.

Vassell - No creation ability.

Which leaves: Deni, Hayes and of course the unanimous #1 (so far) Edwards. Okongwu can't shoot but he's a high-motor two-way monster in the paint, so I'm not crying if he comes in and posterizes WCJ and Lauri in practice.
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#83 » by wonderboy2 » Mon Sep 7, 2020 4:14 am

MrSparkle wrote:I think the most disappointing player I'd get out of this draft is another one-way liability. I'm so sick of those; whether it's offense (Hutch, Carter, Gafford) or defense (Valentine, Lauri, Dunn, Kornet). I'd rather just sign an undrafted player to a laughable NBA contract if that's the roulette I play. Cause honestly, I don't see what a lot of those guys bring that Arci and Shaq don't.

Give me a tough starter who can:

- Dribble
- Defend
- Rebound
- Pass
- Shoot

It's tough because the top-6 is red-flag central, but really, like every draft, there will be atleast 1 stud in the top crop. There is never a 100% fail rate at the top of the draft, and frankly, between GSW, CHI and ATL, I don't think all 3 FOs are gonna whiff.

I think I don't want:

Okoro - Cause he's not gonna shoot or create.

Wiseman - Cause he's not gonna shoot or create, and might even be a defensive liability if he doesn't rotate well.

LaMelo - Dude checks all the boxes theoretically, but I really think he's gonna be a piss-poor shooter like his brother, and worse yet, I think he's going to be soft and injury prone.

Obi - Defensive flags.

Which leaves: Deni, Hayes and of course the unanimous #1 (so far) Edwards. Okongwu can't shoot but he's a high-motor two-way monster in the paint, so I'm not crying if he comes in and posterizes WCJ and Lauri in practice.

But then, I do see a scenario where the players I didn't "want" actually end up better. This is a tough draft.

Hayes projects to be a liability on defense and his outside shot is a liability. Adjiva hasn’t proven he’s a shooter either so he’s technically a liability on that end. Honestly I take any of the top players in this draft over Sato. Dudes a 0 way player. Sucks on defense and Offense. I’ll take guys like Dunn any day over Sato.
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#84 » by 2018C3 » Mon Sep 7, 2020 4:22 am

If Lamelo happens to fall. How many of you would trade him for his Brother if that was a option?

If we ended up with a guy like Lonzo with the fourth pick after a few years in, would that be acceptable outcome?
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#85 » by sco » Mon Sep 7, 2020 1:05 pm

Pistol King wrote:
sco wrote:Agree. Hope you're right. I still don't buy the argument that just because other prospects would look worse in Israel,

Not just in Israel, particularly in Maccabi Tel Aviv, and I extendedly explained why.

that Deni, a guy who looks slow to me (sorry)

Find me one time in the second half of the season, when he really tried on defense and still couldn't guard his opponent, whether it was a point guard, wing or PF. Usually when he failed defensively it was due to lack of effort, lack of focus or being careful because of foul trouble. Not because slow feet. You can argue with me and say he must improve his body shape to be able to guard fast players at the NBA level consistently, I'll be with you on that, you can argue with me and say he's not quick as the typical 6'5 wing in the NBA, I can agree with you on that too, but I'd disagree if you say he's slower than the typical 6'9 NBA player. Not only that, I think he will be quicker than the average 6'9 player. Particularly once his body stop to grow and he learns how to use his body.

and, more importantly, doesn't have a left hand

Finishing with left:

From 0:22':
https://youtu.be/SlM6WlHljUw?t=22

From 2:08':
https://youtu.be/MIRh_bOhMks?t=128

From 2:13':
https://youtu.be/MIRh_bOhMks?t=134

From 4:00':
https://youtu.be/MIRh_bOhMks?t=240

From 0:15':
https://youtu.be/ByFlnkbacfs?t=14

From 2:50':
https://youtu.be/ByFlnkbacfs?t=169

From 12:43':
https://youtu.be/Jl8ldSuDx7k?t=763

It's not that he doesn't have left hand, he just need to learn to use it consistently. Big difference. He dribbles a lot with his left hand and he has shown he can finish with his left as well. He said on the Mike Shmitz breakdown he didn't really pay attention to it (bad coaching). It is fixable.


and is a suspect shooter, will look good in the NBA.

Suspect doesn't mean he can't shoot, right? it just means some people afraid his bad FT indicates he might not be developed into a good shooter. My only advice on this is to watch his full games and see how he shots (especially after the break) and then ask yourself whether with his work ethic he can do the little adjustments needed to completely clean his shot. For me, there are enough reasons to believe he can, he shot ~70% from FT since the break, with higher amount of FT attempts, the form/mechanics looks good, and the touch look good. I still think his biggest need is to strengthen his legs and gain more body control after he learns his body. It will take his whole game to the next level.

I do agree that it's too easy to compare him to other similarly sized Euro's to project his success/failure

Happy we completely agree on something :lol:

Appreciate the sales pitch on Deni (I mean that in a good way - I don't want to not want him). I see some promise that I overlooked during my very minimal review of his body of work!
:clap:
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#86 » by drosereturn » Mon Sep 7, 2020 1:21 pm

MrSparkle wrote:I think the most disappointing player I'd get out of this draft is another one-way liability. I'm so sick of those; whether it's offense (Hutch, Carter, Gafford) or defense (Valentine, Lauri, Dunn, Kornet). I'd rather just sign an undrafted player to a laughable NBA contract if that's the roulette I play. Cause honestly, I don't see what a lot of those guys bring that Arci and Shaq don't.

Give me a tough starter who can:

- Dribble
- Defend
- Rebound
- Pass
- Shoot

With 1 x-factor (either hustle, vision, or clutch genes).

It's tough because the top-6 is red-flag central, but really, like every draft, there will be atleast 1 stud in the top crop. There is never a 100% fail rate at the top of the draft, and frankly, between GSW, CHI and ATL, I don't think all 3 FOs are gonna whiff.

I think I don't want:

Okoro - Cause he's not gonna shoot or create.

Wiseman - Cause he's not gonna shoot or create, and might even be a defensive liability if he doesn't rotate well. But I can see that if all went perfectly well, he is the 2nd most talented prospect.

LaMelo - Dude checks all the boxes theoretically, but I really think he's gonna be a piss-poor shooter like his brother, and worse yet, I think he's going to be soft and injury prone. On the long-shot he actually pans out though, I do "agree" - like Wiseman, LaMelo is the most talented player in this draft minus his playground jump-shot. But then, he's just such a funny case of a project. Like, does he have a clutch gene? He's lost games most his life playing in pro leagues due to his dad's shenanigans, so this guy doesn't even have the success that Deni or Hayes have.

Obi - Defensive flags.

Vassell - No creation ability.

Which leaves: Deni, Hayes and of course the unanimous #1 (so far) Edwards. Okongwu can't shoot but he's a high-motor two-way monster in the paint, so I'm not crying if he comes in and posterizes WCJ and Lauri in practice.


Lamelos shot isnt terrible and still shot decent at the ft. Hes not ben Simmons where he wont take any 3s where defenders will swarm the paint. All he has to do is make his ft above 75 and 3pt above 30 to make him respectable. Btw Doncic has similar number albeit tough shots.

Melos d is terrible but he has the size to be a plus defenders guarding 3 positions. I dont think he is lazy poor work ethic to abandon it. Gave up on Lavine bc wolves already ruined him. Just needs proper coaching. Lamelos is a star bc his deficiencies are very easily fixable but you cant teach height, vision, playmaking.
Lamelo will be a future superstar Bull. Book it. Lavar for president!
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#87 » by BeKuK » Mon Sep 7, 2020 5:28 pm

I knew most people would pick Lamelo Ball....which I am also picking, but I'm really curious to know what it would look like if his father would not be Lavar Ball as we all know Lavar.
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#88 » by Dez » Mon Sep 7, 2020 11:10 pm

BeKuK wrote:I knew most people would pick Lamelo Ball....which I am also picking, but I'm really curious to know what it would look like if his father would not be Lavar Ball as we all know Lavar.


It's got nothing to do with his father and everything to do with the large flaws in his game.

The only positive in his game is his passing.
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#89 » by arusinov » Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:22 pm

2018C3 wrote:Submitted my vote......... Deni

Not a great shooter, lacks athleticism, Does not project to be a defensive juggernaut. I have a really hard time understanding why people see so much potential in his game.

If drafted, I doubt he will ever be a better player than Lauri Markkanen, or Wendal Carter.


I really like all those takes about Deni's "lack of athleticism" as if he was Dario Saric or Kyle Anderson

Actually Deni has close to 40 inch max vertical:
https://www.reddit.com/r/NBA_Draft/comments/io37y3/do_you_consider_deni_avdija_a_good_athlete/

And run coast-to-coast from steal to dunk in less than 4 seconds:
https://www.reddit.com/r/NBA_Draft/comments/igv0qc/deni_avidja_straight_line_speed/

Now... "I don't like to play the race card" but I don't believe people would question his athleticism if he wasn't "a white Euro".
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#90 » by MGB8 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:43 pm

arusinov wrote:
2018C3 wrote:Submitted my vote......... Deni

Not a great shooter, lacks athleticism, Does not project to be a defensive juggernaut. I have a really hard time understanding why people see so much potential in his game.

If drafted, I doubt he will ever be a better player than Lauri Markkanen, or Wendal Carter.


I really like all those takes about Deni's "lack of athleticism" as if he was Dario Saric or Kyle Anderson

Actually Deni has close to 40 inch max vertical:
https://www.reddit.com/r/NBA_Draft/comments/io37y3/do_you_consider_deni_avdija_a_good_athlete/

And run coast-to-coast from steal to dunk in less than 4 seconds:
https://www.reddit.com/r/NBA_Draft/comments/igv0qc/deni_avidja_straight_line_speed/

Now... "I don't like to play the race card" but I don't believe people would question his athleticism if he wasn't "a white Euro".


Depends on what you view Deni as. If you view him as more of a "wing-4," then he's plenty athletic for the spot. If you're viewing him as a pure wing, and you want 100% switchability on the perimeter against all players and creation ability from him when guarded by wings, then you might be concerned.
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#91 » by MGB8 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:47 pm

Dez wrote:
BeKuK wrote:I knew most people would pick Lamelo Ball....which I am also picking, but I'm really curious to know what it would look like if his father would not be Lavar Ball as we all know Lavar.


It's got nothing to do with his father and everything to do with the large flaws in his game.

The only positive in his game is his passing.


I agree, though I wouldn't go that far. His passing is elite, and his ball handling ability is darn near elite, too. He also has quick feet and very good "start stop" (something that I didn't account for with Luka in evaluating him at the time, in part because he didn't need to show that part of his game in Europe so it wasn't jump-off-the-screen visible).

But there are questions on defense, questions in terms of ability to finish through contact, and huge questions on both shot selection and his outside shot, where there doesn't seem to be a physical issue and he has a nice wrist flick, but he has zero consistency in his footwork or even arm motion. He's got a very high ceiling, but a very very low floor. (As opposed to Wiseman, who has a both a very high ceiling and a reasonably high "floor" for an NBA center - but with the devaluing of the position that hurts the evaluations).
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#92 » by arusinov » Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:58 pm

sco wrote:Appreciate the sales pitch on Deni (I mean that in a good way - I don't want to not want him). I see some promise that I overlooked during my very minimal review of his body of work!


Concerning Deni's abilities out of PnR or ISO...

Those are basically critical possessions of Maccabi's I-BSL season. It's 3rd and decisive game of QF against Hapoel Tel-Aviv. Maccabi plays with extremely depleted squad because of series of injuries and suspension of the lead ball-handler Scottie Wilbekin so some people didn't even consider Maccabi as the favorite to advance to SF.

In 4th qtr when Hapoel closed to 2 pts:

https://youtu.be/JIxGQAxBGOs?t=220

https://youtu.be/JIxGQAxBGOs?t=230

And concerning his athleticism - look where from he takes off for a dunk and how high over the rim his hand when he dunks

https://youtu.be/JIxGQAxBGOs?t=168

And just as a curios - here he's attempting a dunk more or less from the free throw line. What do you think ? If not fouled would he suceed?

https://youtu.be/JIxGQAxBGOs?t=114
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#93 » by MGB8 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:58 pm

MrSparkle wrote:I think the most disappointing player I'd get out of this draft is another one-way liability. I'm so sick of those; whether it's offense (Hutch, Carter, Gafford) or defense (Valentine, Lauri, Dunn, Kornet). I'd rather just sign an undrafted player to a laughable NBA contract if that's the roulette I play. Cause honestly, I don't see what a lot of those guys bring that Arci and Shaq don't.

Give me a tough starter who can:

- Dribble
- Defend
- Rebound
- Pass
- Shoot

With 1 x-factor (either hustle, vision, or clutch genes).

It's tough because the top-6 is red-flag central, but really, like every draft, there will be atleast 1 stud in the top crop. There is never a 100% fail rate at the top of the draft, and frankly, between GSW, CHI and ATL, I don't think all 3 FOs are gonna whiff.

I think I don't want:

Okoro - Cause he's not gonna shoot or create.

Wiseman - Cause he's not gonna shoot or create, and might even be a defensive liability if he doesn't rotate well. But I can see that if all went perfectly well, he is the 2nd most talented prospect.

LaMelo - Dude checks all the boxes theoretically, but I really think he's gonna be a piss-poor shooter like his brother, and worse yet, I think he's going to be soft and injury prone. On the long-shot he actually pans out though, I do "agree" - like Wiseman, LaMelo is the most talented player in this draft minus his playground jump-shot. But then, he's just such a funny case of a project. Like, does he have a clutch gene? He's lost games most his life playing in pro leagues due to his dad's shenanigans, so this guy doesn't even have the success that Deni or Hayes have.

Obi - Defensive flags.

Vassell - No creation ability.

Which leaves: Deni, Hayes and of course the unanimous #1 (so far) Edwards. Okongwu can't shoot but he's a high-motor two-way monster in the paint, so I'm not crying if he comes in and posterizes WCJ and Lauri in practice.


See, I see red flags on all of them. I'm not sure that Deni couldn't be a bit of a liability on both ends in the NBA. You put a Jimmy Butler or even Marcus Smart on him (or a lesser player), and can he get past them? Can he easily get his shot off over them due to his size... or is he a "small" 6'9 in that sense? And can he switch to defend the fast 6'5 guy?

Okongwu can't shoot from range, isn't particularly big for a big, and has a middling rebounding rate - how is he an upgrade over the slightly bigger, more skilled Wendell Carter Jr. (aside from pure energy)?

Even Edwards has his own issues - 40% from 2 and 29% from 3 are pretty bad. Nothing special seen on the defensive end yet and he's not particularly big or long for his position. Yeah, his FT shooting is ok at 77% and he gets to the line, so the projection is there, but is he really special?

That's why I'd lean towards Wiseman if he was there. And I also think that Vassell still has offensive upside, to include a better handle and better passing abilities than he's credited for, which didn't show much because of FSU's system - but the poor FT%, 74%, is a red flag, the current lack of strength to finish through contact an issue that might not go away - and he doesn't have elite quickness with the ball.

I'd happily trade the 4th pick this season for Cam Reddish :P (no, seriously though, ATL, you want to deal?).
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#94 » by arusinov » Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:25 pm

MGB8 wrote:
See, I see red flags on all of them. I'm not sure that Deni couldn't be a bit of a liability on both ends in the NBA. You put a Jimmy Butler or even Marcus Smart on him (or a lesser player), and can he get past them? Can he easily get his shot off over them due to his size... or is he a "small" 6'9 in that sense? And can he switch to defend the fast 6'5 guy?



Deni has very good range, his release point is high and release is reasonably quick. Whatever makes him streaky shooter it doesn't have much to do with defenses - it's something in mechanics of his shot or even in his head (on other hand someone like Hayes is actually case of the player which shot can be smothered by more athletic and decisive defense)

Also Deni was considered wing plus-defender in Euroleague which frequently switched on bigs and guards... I know that specialists explain that the way he defended is "incorrect" as he was "using body without quickly moving feet". The bottom line - they more or less never got around him - and those are good enough players which would take someone like Toppin 10 times out of 10.

Can Deni got around Butler? I don't know. Not many players can. Can he do it with some "lesser wing" - he can do it if needed, his first step is not really slow, and he's quite crafty with the ball (not Luka's level but still). But he certainly would try to get bigger defender on switch for penetration... On other hand he can go to the post if guarded by smaller wing and score effectively there, he's also very good in passing out of post if help defense come...
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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#95 » by dpucane » Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:30 pm

Wiseman and Toppin.

The 2 guys I feel very confident will be played off the fkoor by the 2nd round if the playoffs.

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Re: who do you NOT want in this draft? 

Post#96 » by zmz72388 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:41 pm



yeah...no to Haliburton

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