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How Good is Jimmy Butler?

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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#141 » by TheSuzerain » Wed Sep 9, 2020 5:09 pm

Wanting to trade Jimmy and rebuild wasn't crazy.

What was crazy is the following:

1. Being OK with GarPax managing the team during said rebuild. Once the word was that GarPax were staying in place, all the wind should have come out of the "Trade Jimmy" sails.

2. Acting like the return we got for Jimmy was any good at all.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#142 » by beeshma » Wed Sep 9, 2020 5:10 pm

chefo wrote:The FO were quite simply too blind to see the forest for the trees and focused on Jimmy's rebellious personality rather than the fact that he was one of the best 2-way wings in the entire NBA.

That, and he publicly called out first Hoiberg and the Future (Jerian, Bobby, Denzel, Doug, Cam) for not caring enough to be great or just plain sucking. As it turns out, Hoiberg was a dud, and the younglings were mostly utter trash that had no place on a playoff roster. But, by doing these things, in the FO's minds, they probably felt Jimmy embarrassed them... in public, which was a double No-No.

So, they then figured out Jimmy will command $30M+ pretty soon and off he went. If you remember, I was kinda' furious because it seemed that the Bulls were throwing away the present for insanely low odds of the future. Jimmy was gone because he couldn't beat a 1 seed with Rondo going down mid-series and them getting rid of our best defensive big (Taj) mid-season. So... we'll trust our franchise in the hands of the biggest group of meh ever assembled by a Bulls FO the next year. But...we'll get Niko back, and keep Rolo. Niko then just went super nova... which combined with Lauri playing really well as a rook, should have made them just salivate about having a pair of flame-throwing front court players making a total of $20M for awhile. Instead, Niko got shipped for a shyte asset, and Rolo got benched AFTER they had destroyed the tank. Just pure genius!

Anyhow, Rondo, Jimmy, Niko and somebody like Taj, Rolo and/or Collins/BAM and a couple of quality role players like Holiday probably means deep playoff runs in the East, and that is if Jimmy couldn't convince anybody else to come play with him.


If Portis hadn't punched Mirotic, then Mirotic wouldn't have gone supernova, and the Bulls would have a had a top 3 pick for the chance to get Ayton, Trae, or Doncic. :nonono:
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#143 » by beeshma » Wed Sep 9, 2020 5:11 pm

kulaz3000 wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:
kulaz3000 wrote:
Why though? I don't think anyone discounted the fact that he was a really good player. At worst, I think most agree that he is a top 15 player in this league, then and now. The problem was that the Bulls thought he wasn't a player they could build around as a championship player, so they opted to rebuild.

The Heat and their management are clearly on a different level, where they have built a championship teams in the past and have done a great job at doing just that with Jimmy at the helm, but also, let's not get ahead of ourselves, he has yet to be on a team as the best player who has got passed the second round.

I absolutely love the guy, and have ever since we drafted him, but I don't regret moving on from him, because I had zero confidence that the Bulls front office at the time could properly build around him and the hope was that they would do better via the draft. He still don't think he is a player who can be the best player on a championship team. I would abosolutely be over-joyed if he can and does, but he is a teir below the best players of the league, and usually championship teams have one or two of the top 10 players in the league.


Because the argument was that you couldn't build a contender around Jimmy Butler. The Miami Heat have built one and the support they've given him is something we could have replicated.


Are the Heat really legitimate Championship contenders though?


At this point, why ask? We'll see the answer soon on the court. If the Heat can do it, then they will earn all that respect.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#144 » by chefo » Wed Sep 9, 2020 5:54 pm

beeshma wrote:
chefo wrote:The FO were quite simply too blind to see the forest for the trees and focused on Jimmy's rebellious personality rather than the fact that he was one of the best 2-way wings in the entire NBA.

That, and he publicly called out first Hoiberg and the Future (Jerian, Bobby, Denzel, Doug, Cam) for not caring enough to be great or just plain sucking. As it turns out, Hoiberg was a dud, and the younglings were mostly utter trash that had no place on a playoff roster. But, by doing these things, in the FO's minds, they probably felt Jimmy embarrassed them... in public, which was a double No-No.

So, they then figured out Jimmy will command $30M+ pretty soon and off he went. If you remember, I was kinda' furious because it seemed that the Bulls were throwing away the present for insanely low odds of the future. Jimmy was gone because he couldn't beat a 1 seed with Rondo going down mid-series and them getting rid of our best defensive big (Taj) mid-season. So... we'll trust our franchise in the hands of the biggest group of meh ever assembled by a Bulls FO the next year. But...we'll get Niko back, and keep Rolo. Niko then just went super nova... which combined with Lauri playing really well as a rook, should have made them just salivate about having a pair of flame-throwing front court players making a total of $20M for awhile. Instead, Niko got shipped for a shyte asset, and Rolo got benched AFTER they had destroyed the tank. Just pure genius!

Anyhow, Rondo, Jimmy, Niko and somebody like Taj, Rolo and/or Collins/BAM and a couple of quality role players like Holiday probably means deep playoff runs in the East, and that is if Jimmy couldn't convince anybody else to come play with him.


If Portis hadn't punched Mirotic, then Mirotic wouldn't have gone supernova, and the Bulls would have a had a top 3 pick for the chance to get Ayton, Trae, or Doncic. :nonono:


If you look at Miro's per 36 splits and +/- for his whole career, you'd see remarkable consistency. He's always been a big net positive player, no matter how much or little he's played. Yeah, he was not going to shoot 43% from 3 for an entire season, but he has always produced when put in a place to produce so him going on a crazy hot streak was not that unexpected. What was stupid was drafting Bobby right behind him (Niko was still pretty young) and then promising the younglings (Val, Jerian, Bobby) that they'll get the reigns of the team if they put in the work, regardless if some vet or another outplays them. Which, given that Niko was a much better player than Bobby, led to that whole mess of a situation. But I do remember that before it happened, the reports out of training camp were that Niko was kicking butt and taking names and looking like a legit star.

Niko, BTW, is still the best 2-way PF the Bulls have had since the dynasty years (with Taj a not-so close second) and he actually wanted to be here. Another strike for the old FO to have effed up everything so royally with him. All he ever needed was consistent touches and the year he got them, he kicked posterior.

Not to be off-topic, he's like the perfect complementary player to Jimmy or any other wing that likes to drive because you can't leave him open anywhere inside 28 feet or you risk him draining 5-6 3s on you in any given game. Also, unlike most other stretch bigs, he was a good rebounder and an above average defender for a big, a quite rare combo.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#145 » by kulaz3000 » Wed Sep 9, 2020 8:05 pm

beeshma wrote:At this point, why ask? We'll see the answer soon on the court. If the Heat can do it, then they will earn all that respect.


Why ask? This entire thread.

It's almost like people want to pit the people who were in favor of trading Jimmy, against those who wanted to keep him. When in reality, everyone respected Jimmy as a player. And now the see, which side was right game ensues.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#146 » by Ice Man » Wed Sep 9, 2020 8:55 pm

Why ask? Because we are playing at being GMs, and the "trade Jimmy Butler or build around him?" issue is a case study in GM management.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#147 » by Jimako10 » Wed Sep 9, 2020 9:00 pm

I still find it ridiculous that they couldn't get any 1st round picks and instead swapped 1sts. I thought it was a typo from the media at the time....

Houston gave 2 FRPs and 2 first round pick swaps for westbrook

Clippers gave FIVE FRPs AND Gilgeous-Alexander for Paul George.

Butler keeps making fools out of the GarPax ever since they wouldnt budge on giving Butler 12m/year instead of 10m/yr on his first extension.




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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#148 » by Ice Man » Wed Sep 9, 2020 9:15 pm

Jimako10 wrote:I still find it ridiculous that they couldn't get any 1st round picks and instead swapped 1sts. I thought it was a typo from the media at the time....

Houston gave 2 FRPs and 2 first round pick swaps for westbrook

Clippers gave FIVE FRPs AND Gilgeous-Alexander for Paul George.


Minnesota got the #1 overall pick (!) for Kevin Love, who had but one year remaining on his contract (!). The league's GMs went cheap on Butler. GarPax took the best offer that they got. But I think they should have walked away, it's not as if they had to do a deal. But once an idea gets into somebody's head ...
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#149 » by Jimako10 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:42 am

Ice Man wrote:
Jimako10 wrote:I still find it ridiculous that they couldn't get any 1st round picks and instead swapped 1sts. I thought it was a typo from the media at the time....

Houston gave 2 FRPs and 2 first round pick swaps for westbrook

Clippers gave FIVE FRPs AND Gilgeous-Alexander for Paul George.


Minnesota got the #1 overall pick (!) for Kevin Love, who had but one year remaining on his contract (!). The league's GMs went cheap on Butler. GarPax took the best offer that they got. But I think they should have walked away, it's not as if they had to do a deal. But once an idea gets into somebody's head ...


You're right, if that really was the best offer then they should have RAN away. And they were negotiating with THIBS of all people! Didn't they realize how much Thibs loved Butler? Thibs probably would have donated his kidney to acquire Butler.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#150 » by dice » Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:55 am

Jimako10 wrote:Butler keeps making fools out of the GarPax ever since they wouldnt budge on giving Butler 12m/year instead of 10m/yr on his first extension.

by that logic, did jimmy and his agent make fools out of themselves for being willing to settle for $12 when they ended up getting $18?
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#151 » by Mark K » Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:32 am

beeshma wrote:
kulaz3000 wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:
Because the argument was that you couldn't build a contender around Jimmy Butler. The Miami Heat have built one and the support they've given him is something we could have replicated.


Are the Heat really legitimate Championship contenders though?


At this point, why ask? We'll see the answer soon on the court. If the Heat can do it, then they will earn all that respect.


Maybe. Maybe not.

But I don't think the naysayers would have ever believed a Jimmy Butler led team would make an ECF with him as the lead guy.

Whether they're a title threat or not, the Heat will be back in the ECF, and it only took them six years to back here, doing so with a Bulls guy. Meanwhile in Chicago, all we have that is replicable is 2011 -- nothing before it since 1998 and certainly nothing close to it after.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#152 » by MrSparkle » Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:59 am

chefo wrote:
beeshma wrote:
chefo wrote:The FO were quite simply too blind to see the forest for the trees and focused on Jimmy's rebellious personality rather than the fact that he was one of the best 2-way wings in the entire NBA.

That, and he publicly called out first Hoiberg and the Future (Jerian, Bobby, Denzel, Doug, Cam) for not caring enough to be great or just plain sucking. As it turns out, Hoiberg was a dud, and the younglings were mostly utter trash that had no place on a playoff roster. But, by doing these things, in the FO's minds, they probably felt Jimmy embarrassed them... in public, which was a double No-No.

So, they then figured out Jimmy will command $30M+ pretty soon and off he went. If you remember, I was kinda' furious because it seemed that the Bulls were throwing away the present for insanely low odds of the future. Jimmy was gone because he couldn't beat a 1 seed with Rondo going down mid-series and them getting rid of our best defensive big (Taj) mid-season. So... we'll trust our franchise in the hands of the biggest group of meh ever assembled by a Bulls FO the next year. But...we'll get Niko back, and keep Rolo. Niko then just went super nova... which combined with Lauri playing really well as a rook, should have made them just salivate about having a pair of flame-throwing front court players making a total of $20M for awhile. Instead, Niko got shipped for a shyte asset, and Rolo got benched AFTER they had destroyed the tank. Just pure genius!

Anyhow, Rondo, Jimmy, Niko and somebody like Taj, Rolo and/or Collins/BAM and a couple of quality role players like Holiday probably means deep playoff runs in the East, and that is if Jimmy couldn't convince anybody else to come play with him.


If Portis hadn't punched Mirotic, then Mirotic wouldn't have gone supernova, and the Bulls would have a had a top 3 pick for the chance to get Ayton, Trae, or Doncic. :nonono:


If you look at Miro's per 36 splits and +/- for his whole career, you'd see remarkable consistency. He's always been a big net positive player, no matter how much or little he's played. Yeah, he was not going to shoot 43% from 3 for an entire season, but he has always produced when put in a place to produce so him going on a crazy hot streak was not that unexpected. What was stupid was drafting Bobby right behind him (Niko was still pretty young) and then promising the younglings (Val, Jerian, Bobby) that they'll get the reigns of the team if they put in the work, regardless if some vet or another outplays them. Which, given that Niko was a much better player than Bobby, led to that whole mess of a situation. But I do remember that before it happened, the reports out of training camp were that Niko was kicking butt and taking names and looking like a legit star.

Niko, BTW, is still the best 2-way PF the Bulls have had since the dynasty years (with Taj a not-so close second) and he actually wanted to be here. Another strike for the old FO to have effed up everything so royally with him. All he ever needed was consistent touches and the year he got them, he kicked posterior.

Not to be off-topic, he's like the perfect complementary player to Jimmy or any other wing that likes to drive because you can't leave him open anywhere inside 28 feet or you risk him draining 5-6 3s on you in any given game. Also, unlike most other stretch bigs, he was a good rebounder and an above average defender for a big, a quite rare combo.


Stats might prove me wrong, but I actually think journey-man Olynyk is actually the best version of all these guys. Kind of gets the stretch-4 thing done on lower volume, is much more aggressive and pesky as a defender and with loose balls, and can amply switch between PF and C.

But that said, don't forget we had Brand for 2 years. And Noc played a lot of PF, and I thought the team was a lot of fun when he did. Plus we had PJ Brown for that one year, playing fantastic.

I guess the sad thing is that Niko is probably the best PF from all the top-10 picks and FAs the Bulls had the last 20 years. I agree he provided a level of consistency, though like Lauri, when his confidence was down, his 3P shooting was so mediocre that you could hardly justify living with the liabilities they brought. But I totally agree - he did not get a fair shake on the Bulls. I think Thibs would've made a player out of him. I still think that GarPax were cowards for not properly calling Portis out. That was unacceptable behavior (even if Niko said something really inappropriate or egged on a fight). Putting a teammate in hospital for 4 months was an 8-game suspension? WTF?
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#153 » by Leslie Forman » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:14 am

MrSparkle wrote:Putting a teammate in hospital for 4 months was an 8-game suspension? WTF?

He broke Mirotic's jaw, he didn't put him in a coma.

Frankly both guys were very unlikable and should have been shipped out ASAP.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#154 » by dice » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:29 am

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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#155 » by Ice Man » Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:11 pm

MrSparkle wrote: I still think that GarPax were cowards for not properly calling Portis out.


The Chicago beat reporters at the time kept writing about how behind the scenes, the organization and players had Bobby's back. Which says a lot about how much they disliked Niko, and perhaps also something unsavory about the character of the organization and players.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#156 » by MrSparkle » Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:39 pm

Ice Man wrote:
MrSparkle wrote: I still think that GarPax were cowards for not properly calling Portis out.


The Chicago beat reporters at the time kept writing about how behind the scenes, the organization and players had Bobby's back. Which says a lot about how much they disliked Niko, and perhaps also something unsavory about the character of the organization and players.


Yeah I remember. I think Robin Lopez was the only guy “reaching out.” But I agree- there is something seriously wrong and unsavory when something like that happens and there isn’t a greater collective reflection.

All I know is they buried the story. I don’t think we ever got “Bobby’s essay.”
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#157 » by chefo » Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:48 pm

Ice Man wrote:
MrSparkle wrote: I still think that GarPax were cowards for not properly calling Portis out.


The Chicago beat reporters at the time kept writing about how behind the scenes, the organization and players had Bobby's back. Which says a lot about how much they disliked Niko, and perhaps also something unsavory about the character of the organization and players.


I think it came out that said players were the 'younglings'--because Val and Jerian came out and defended Bobby. Not coincidentally, these are the dudes that Jimmy and Wade had an issue with the year before. It later came out that the Bulls FO had told these guys what they understood as: "if you work really hard over the summer, the team is yours. We just got rid of Jimmy and Dwayne." Which is to say, that the trio had a very over-inflated view of their own importance to the Bulls at that exact time because they thought that the FO chose them over a legit NBA star and an NBA legend.

They all said the exact same things in different words--we busted our asses over the summer, and this guy, who didn't (Niko) came in and won the starting PF spot. We have every right to be mad because you went back on your word. The fact that Niko didn't sign until very late didn't register. Neither did the fact that Niko is just a much better player than Bobby who had legit range out to 30ft AND a much better defender.

It also came out that Hoiberg and this staff were encouraging very physical practices and asking players to be very aggressive on D and on the boards in order to toughen them up, and that Niko was one of the more aggressive players in pushing guys around. So, Niko was portrayed in the friendly media as a bully who got what he deserved... despite that same media saying in practices he was by far the best player on the team.

I stand by what I wrote back then. Bobby should have been suspended for half a season, or at least until Niko came back. Jerian and Val should have been shipped out immediately, as opposed to be given starting roles, both because they showed little remorse about Bobby's actions and viewed them as justified, but also because they sucked and deserved absolutely no leniency. These guys had end-of-the bench talent and their opinions should have mattered about as much as mine. And if they were poisoning the well, like it later came out--cut their asses or ship them out of town pronto--which ended up happening anyways, but years too late.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#158 » by MrSparkle » Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:54 pm

chefo wrote:
Ice Man wrote:
MrSparkle wrote: I still think that GarPax were cowards for not properly calling Portis out.


The Chicago beat reporters at the time kept writing about how behind the scenes, the organization and players had Bobby's back. Which says a lot about how much they disliked Niko, and perhaps also something unsavory about the character of the organization and players.


I think it came out that said players were the 'younglings'--because Val and Jerian came out and defended Bobby. Not coincidentally, these are the dudes that Jimmy and Wade had an issue with the year before. It later came out that the Bulls FO had told these guys what they understood as: "if you work really hard over the summer, the team is yours. We just got rid of Jimmy and Dwayne." Which is to say, that the trio had a very over-inflated view of their own importance to the Bulls at that exact time because they thought that the FO chose them over a legit NBA star and an NBA legend.

They all said the exact same things in different words--we busted our asses over the summer, and this guy, who didn't (Niko) came in and won the starting PF spot. We have every right to be mad because you went back on your word. The fact that Niko didn't sign until very late didn't register. Neither did the fact that Niko is just a much better player than Bobby who had legit range out to 30ft AND a much better defender.

It also came out that Hoiberg and this staff were encouraging very physical practices and asking players to be very aggressive on D and on the boards in order to toughen them up, and that Niko was one of the more aggressive players in pushing guys around. So, Niko was portrayed in the friendly media as a bully who got what he deserved... despite that same media saying in practices he was by far the best player on the team.

I stand by what I wrote back then. Bobby should have been suspended for half a season, or at least until Niko came back. Jerian and Val should have been shipped out immediately, as opposed to be given starting roles, both because they showed little remorse about Bobby's actions and viewed them as justified, but also because they sucked and deserved absolutely no leniency. These guys had end-of-the bench talent and their opinions should have mattered about as much as mine. And if they were poisoning the well, like it later came out--cut their asses or ship them out of town pronto--which ended up happening anyways, but years too late.


Totally agree. I’m still shocked we wasted 4 years on Valentine. Now that we have, I’m not opposed to setting thru if a new coach make something of his good 3P shooting and passing as a 15-min. microwave, but I really was never a fan of giving him, Jerian or Bobby any keys or say. Wade and Jimmy should’ve been allowed to put these guys in their place.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#159 » by DaMayor07 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:49 pm

MrSparkle wrote:
chefo wrote:
Ice Man wrote:
The Chicago beat reporters at the time kept writing about how behind the scenes, the organization and players had Bobby's back. Which says a lot about how much they disliked Niko, and perhaps also something unsavory about the character of the organization and players.


I think it came out that said players were the 'younglings'--because Val and Jerian came out and defended Bobby. Not coincidentally, these are the dudes that Jimmy and Wade had an issue with the year before. It later came out that the Bulls FO had told these guys what they understood as: "if you work really hard over the summer, the team is yours. We just got rid of Jimmy and Dwayne." Which is to say, that the trio had a very over-inflated view of their own importance to the Bulls at that exact time because they thought that the FO chose them over a legit NBA star and an NBA legend.

They all said the exact same things in different words--we busted our asses over the summer, and this guy, who didn't (Niko) came in and won the starting PF spot. We have every right to be mad because you went back on your word. The fact that Niko didn't sign until very late didn't register. Neither did the fact that Niko is just a much better player than Bobby who had legit range out to 30ft AND a much better defender.

It also came out that Hoiberg and this staff were encouraging very physical practices and asking players to be very aggressive on D and on the boards in order to toughen them up, and that Niko was one of the more aggressive players in pushing guys around. So, Niko was portrayed in the friendly media as a bully who got what he deserved... despite that same media saying in practices he was by far the best player on the team.

I stand by what I wrote back then. Bobby should have been suspended for half a season, or at least until Niko came back. Jerian and Val should have been shipped out immediately, as opposed to be given starting roles, both because they showed little remorse about Bobby's actions and viewed them as justified, but also because they sucked and deserved absolutely no leniency. These guys had end-of-the bench talent and their opinions should have mattered about as much as mine. And if they were poisoning the well, like it later came out--cut their asses or ship them out of town pronto--which ended up happening anyways, but years too late.


Totally agree. I’m still shocked we wasted 4 years on Valentine. Now that we have, I’m not opposed to setting thru if a new coach make something of his good 3P shooting and passing as a 15-min. microwave, but I really was never a fan of giving him, Jerian or Bobby any keys or say. Wade and Jimmy should’ve been allowed to put these guys in their place.


Never understood or saw the hype behind DV. He had multiple surgeries? and just couldn't play well enough to make me think "we have something promising here".
Bobby was horrible.
Niko was gold that we destroyed. I feel bad for the guy for his time here in Chicago.

Hopefully the new management gives us hope
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#160 » by molepharmer » Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:54 pm

Not exactly basketball related but just saw a Hot Ones episode of JB from 2019. He does talk a bit about vet Bulls, Euro trip, wine, etc
TGibson (1/28/17); "..."a 4 or 5 on a scale of 1 to 10 for drama"...What's the worst? "...yelling matches with Thibs, everybody is just going crazy and I'm just sitting there...like, 'Don't call my name please..."

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