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How Good is Jimmy Butler?

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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#201 » by dougthonus » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:48 pm

TeamMan wrote:Doug, for many, many, many years I have been reading you posts, and before I always thought that you were excellent in the things that you posted.

But, for the last year or two, I get this feeling that you are the boy with his finger in the dike - more interested in damage control than in a more cerebral approach to the game of basketball.


What damage is there to control? I called it a losing situation in either way, but the loss in both cases is due to poor decisions not related to Butler. I mean it's still blaming the org for stupidity in either way. I'm just saying the stupidity came in the form of areas other than what people are focusing on in this move. My view, in some ways, is fundamentally more negative than yours. I'm saying we put ourselves in such a hole that we were screwed no matter what we did.

Most of what you post I agree with, but some of it, like the whole subject of Butler, I feel like you are not accepting that he is just an outstanding NBA player that just happens to have played for the Bulls.


I do think that, he probably peaked as a top 10 player and is probably now a top 15-20 player. However, he's also a player with zero tolerance for losing / rebuilding / any person that doesn't share his exact ethos. Those things would have caused him to not be a good player based on where our organization was (already clashed with head coach and teammates, and we didn't have the ability to move the team forward in a good direction based on previous screw ups in the draft, a lack of talent on the upswing, a lack of good draft choices, and a lack of cap room).

In fact, Butler is one of the best players in the NBA at the moment, and it's unfortunate that he's an ex Bull, but that is the reality.


That really isn't true though, except that he's probably a top 15-20 player. People have begun to overrate Butler due to the Heat's great playoff run. He's still a very good player, legit all-star caliber player, but he's not a superstar player. That doesn't mean he wasn't a good guy to keep of course. You need legit all-star players. He'd still trivially be the best player on this team if he were here.

Hopefully, with the new FO, we can get the train back on the tracks, but Butler is our past, and we have to accept that letting him go was a mistake.


I think we would be screwed either way, and I think we're screwed now because the org made bad decisions. I think those bad decisions are different ones than you do, but they were still bad decisions. I don't think there was a good "keep Butler" plan after the McDermott trade and signing Wade to a two year deal.

Also hopefully, our new FO will not make these same mistakes in the future.


Agreed.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#202 » by dougthonus » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:54 pm

troza wrote:- Butler made his teams better. 76ers, Wolves and Bulls this season were all worse than when they had Butler
- All the things about his will to win and problems with other guys for not trying too hard... It just makes me wondering if he would fit into the dynasty team. Maybe he wasn't the best leader but he seems to have the right mindset. And I think that's why it is working fine in Miami, where there is a leader there and a coach that can deal with that.


Butler probably would have been good buddies with Jordan. Similar attitude and approach. He can definitely work with the right people around him, but Jordan was also a guy that grinded guys badly, and without Pippen / Jackson to balance him out as strong voices that Jordan respected, Jordan probably would have had a very negative impact on culture.

I think the same is true with Butler, but he didn't have a secondary star voice to bring guys up and balance him out or a great coach he trusted to help balance him out. He can have a good impact on culture, but it's also clear he can rub guys wrong very fast too.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#203 » by GusFring » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:12 pm

Anyone still arguing for the bulls decision to trade him is delusional. He's about to take a young heat to the finals. The bulls suck ass.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#204 » by TeamMan » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:26 pm

dougthonus wrote:
TeamMan wrote:Doug, for many, many, many years I have been reading you posts, and before I always thought that you were excellent in the things that you posted.

But, for the last year or two, I get this feeling that you are the boy with his finger in the dike - more interested in damage control than in a more cerebral approach to the game of basketball.


What damage is there to control? I called it a losing situation in either way, but the loss in both cases is due to poor decisions not related to Butler. I mean it's still blaming the org for stupidity in either way. I'm just saying the stupidity came in the form of areas other than what people are focusing on in this move. My view, in some ways, is fundamentally more negative than yours. I'm saying we put ourselves in such a hole that we were screwed no matter what we did.

Most of what you post I agree with, but some of it, like the whole subject of Butler, I feel like you are not accepting that he is just an outstanding NBA player that just happens to have played for the Bulls.


I do think that, he probably peaked as a top 10 player and is probably now a top 15-20 player. However, he's also a player with zero tolerance for losing / rebuilding / any person that doesn't share his exact ethos. Those things would have caused him to not be a good player based on where our organization was (already clashed with head coach and teammates, and we didn't have the ability to move the team forward in a good direction based on previous screw ups in the draft, a lack of talent on the upswing, a lack of good draft choices, and a lack of cap room).

In fact, Butler is one of the best players in the NBA at the moment, and it's unfortunate that he's an ex Bull, but that is the reality.


That really isn't true though, except that he's probably a top 15-20 player. People have begun to overrate Butler due to the Heat's great playoff run. He's still a very good player, legit all-star caliber player, but he's not a superstar player. That doesn't mean he wasn't a good guy to keep of course. You need legit all-star players. He'd still trivially be the best player on this team if he were here.

Hopefully, with the new FO, we can get the train back on the tracks, but Butler is our past, and we have to accept that letting him go was a mistake.


I think we would be screwed either way, and I think we're screwed now because the org made bad decisions. I think those bad decisions are different ones than you do, but they were still bad decisions. I don't think there was a good "keep Butler" plan after the McDermott trade and signing Wade to a two year deal.

Also hopefully, our new FO will not make these same mistakes in the future.


Agreed.

I think that the one quote (in what you posted) that I completely disagree with is that Butler is a top 15-20 player.

IMO he's one of the few players in the NBA (at this time) that you can build a team around. And the Heat proved it.

They took Butler, and a bunch of young unproven players, together with a bunch of NBA castoffs, and managed to make it to the Easter Conference Finals. And they started out by beating the team with the best regular season record in the NBA.

I won't make any predictions (after one game), but I believe that the Heat can beat the Celtics. We will see.

But to me it's clear that Butler (similar to LeBron with the Cavs), is the heart and sole of the Heat team.

And that makes him much, much better than a top 15-20 player.

Also, regarding the finger in the dyke, I keep going back to the statement that Bulls ownership is the problem. But it appears that it has become a topic that is forbidden to discuss.

So, IMO if you can skip over all of the criticism that you have to give about Gar/Pax, and say the it's Bulls ownership that needs to be fixed, then you can take your finger out of the dyke and fully support the new FO.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#205 » by Ice Man » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:38 pm

TeamMan wrote: But it appears that it has become a topic that is forbidden to discuss.


Nah. Pretty much everybody here, Doug included, has criticized the Reinsdorfs plenty. Personally, I'd be happier if the team were in different hands. But I am cautiously optimistic that the ownership will let Karnisovas do his thing.

Do we have a nickname for Karnisovas, by the way? Is he to be AK?
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#206 » by ATRAIN53 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:49 pm

man what I would give to be able to ask Hoiberg and Paxson this same question today......

my memories of the Bulter break-up was Him, Wade and Rondo all calling out Hoiberg as a bad coach.
Butler wanted him to be more intense and told the Bulls to choose between him or Hoiberg - and they had them both on huge long term deals so someone had to go.....

Image

"In the past, we've gone to the playoffs but not to the level we wanted to"


You know what else really ticks me off watching him or the playoffs in general-

The Bulls and MJ are the main reason the NBA is what it is now.
We get to watch Scottie Pippen and Butler on these Michelob Ultra commercials and there is ZERO association with the Bulls.
I mean they are not even tied to the franchise now and they are 2 of the most iconic Bulls.

It's been clear for years Butler wants the ball in late high pressure situations. That is a unique skill that very few NBA players have.

Is he a no brainer 1st ballot HOF player?

I think he needs a ring, but he's for sure a guy you want to go to battle with.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#207 » by TheSuzerain » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:01 pm

Butler in his last year with us was Superstar-level good. top 5-8. He was 3rd in the NBA in Win Shares. It's honestly shocking that the Bulls traded that version of him.

He has declined a bit since then and is now in the 10-15 range I'd say. But unlike some of the other 'star' players in his present tier where it can get sketchy if their offense is sputtering, he's a no-doubt winning basketball player.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#208 » by MGB8 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:03 pm

TeamMan wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
TeamMan wrote:Doug, for many, many, many years I have been reading you posts, and before I always thought that you were excellent in the things that you posted.

But, for the last year or two, I get this feeling that you are the boy with his finger in the dike - more interested in damage control than in a more cerebral approach to the game of basketball.


What damage is there to control? I called it a losing situation in either way, but the loss in both cases is due to poor decisions not related to Butler. I mean it's still blaming the org for stupidity in either way. I'm just saying the stupidity came in the form of areas other than what people are focusing on in this move. My view, in some ways, is fundamentally more negative than yours. I'm saying we put ourselves in such a hole that we were screwed no matter what we did.

Most of what you post I agree with, but some of it, like the whole subject of Butler, I feel like you are not accepting that he is just an outstanding NBA player that just happens to have played for the Bulls.


I do think that, he probably peaked as a top 10 player and is probably now a top 15-20 player. However, he's also a player with zero tolerance for losing / rebuilding / any person that doesn't share his exact ethos. Those things would have caused him to not be a good player based on where our organization was (already clashed with head coach and teammates, and we didn't have the ability to move the team forward in a good direction based on previous screw ups in the draft, a lack of talent on the upswing, a lack of good draft choices, and a lack of cap room).

In fact, Butler is one of the best players in the NBA at the moment, and it's unfortunate that he's an ex Bull, but that is the reality.


That really isn't true though, except that he's probably a top 15-20 player. People have begun to overrate Butler due to the Heat's great playoff run. He's still a very good player, legit all-star caliber player, but he's not a superstar player. That doesn't mean he wasn't a good guy to keep of course. You need legit all-star players. He'd still trivially be the best player on this team if he were here.

Hopefully, with the new FO, we can get the train back on the tracks, but Butler is our past, and we have to accept that letting him go was a mistake.


I think we would be screwed either way, and I think we're screwed now because the org made bad decisions. I think those bad decisions are different ones than you do, but they were still bad decisions. I don't think there was a good "keep Butler" plan after the McDermott trade and signing Wade to a two year deal.

Also hopefully, our new FO will not make these same mistakes in the future.


Agreed.

I think that the one quote (in what you posted) that I completely disagree with is that Butler is a top 15-20 player.

IMO he's one of the few players in the NBA (at this time) that you can build a team around. And the Heat proved it.

They took Butler, and a bunch of young unproven players, together with a bunch of NBA castoffs, and managed to make it to the Easter Conference Finals. And they started out by beating the team with the best regular season record in the NBA.

I won't make any predictions (after one game), but I believe that the Heat can beat the Celtics. We will see.

But to me it's clear that Butler (similar to LeBron with the Cavs), is the heart and sole of the Heat team.

And that makes him much, much better than a top 15-20 player.

Also, regarding the finger in the dyke, I keep going back to the statement that Bulls ownership is the problem. But it appears that it has become a topic that is forbidden to discuss.

So, IMO if you can skip over all of the criticism that you have to give about Gar/Pax, and say the it's Bulls ownership that needs to be fixed, then you can take your finger out of the dyke and fully support the new FO.


I think this is fair. You look at the Heat roster, and what do they have? A rising star in Bam Abedayo, who is a top 50 player but not more than that, at least not yet. A declining (but in the playoffs resurgent) point guard / combo guard in Goran Dragic. And then what? An undrafted young "phenom" combo guard in rookie Kendrick Nunn and 3-point gunner, 2nd year player Duncan Robinson. A solid but not guaranteed all-start young rookie talent in Tyler Hero. An over the hill Andre Iguodala and other rotation level players - Jae Crowder, Olynyk, Meyers Leonard, Derrick Jones Jr.. Honestly, besides Butler and Bam, which players on the Heat's roster are likely to start on 75% of other NBA teams - good or bad? Dragic didn't even start for the Heat during the regular season.

At least in the playoffs right now, Butler's a top 10 NBA player. Some of that is injuries - Durant is hurt. Curry this year isn't normal Curry. But swap out this year's Paul George for him and the Heat aren't where they are. Swap out James Harden and they are likely in a similar place as a team - but I doubt meaningfully better. Is Embiid truly better in terms of overall impact? Siakam? Hard to argue those two when they have better pieces around them. Maybe Tatum (who also has a stronger starting "supporting cast", though with bigger obvious weaknesses and lesser depth) is another equivalent player.

So in terms of "top 10" for this season, I think you have (not in order):

1. Lebron, 2. A.Davis, 3. Doncic, 4. Giannis, 5. Harden, 6. Dame, 7. *Butler*, 8. Jokic, 9. Tatum, 10. Embiid - Siakam the odd guy out given that he was effectively neutralized in the playoffs, George, Jamal Murray right there too - and maybe Donavan Mitchell, Gobert, Ja and a few others after that. But I think it is hard to argue - for purposes of this season only - that there are 10 NBA players who impact the trajectory of their teams more than Butler, IMO.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#209 » by Ice Man » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:03 pm

ATRAIN53 wrote:Is he a no brainer 1st ballot HOF player?


Not now. Making 5 All Star teams but not having much else on the resume won't get it done.

However, if Miami makes the 2020 Finals, then Butler (somewhat unfairly, but such is how playoff records are remembered) will be credited with taking his team there, and players who take their team to the Finals get a big plus for the Hall of Fame. Also, he will need to stay healthy, play well, and make a couple of more All Star teams. That might do it -- being remembered for taking a team to the Finals and making 7 All Star teams.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#210 » by weneeda2guard » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:06 pm

ATRAIN53 wrote:man what I would give to be able to ask Hoiberg and Paxson this same question today......

my memories of the Bulter break-up was Him, Wade and Rondo all calling out Hoiberg as a bad coach.
Butler wanted him to be more intense and told the Bulls to choose between him or Hoiberg - and they had them both on huge long term deals so someone had to go.....

Image

"In the past, we've gone to the playoffs but not to the level we wanted to"


You know what else really ticks me off watching him or the playoffs in general-

The Bulls and MJ are the main reason the NBA is what it is now.
We get to watch Scottie Pippen and Butler on these Michelob Ultra commercials and there is ZERO association with the Bulls.
I mean they are not even tied to the franchise now and they are 2 of the most iconic Bulls.

It's been clear for years Butler wants the ball in late high pressure situations. That is a unique skill that very few NBA players have.

Is he a no brainer 1st ballot HOF player?

I think he needs a ring, but he's for sure a guy you want to go to battle with.

I'm sure kawhi Is thinking that right now. Especially considering butler was his choice to join him over pg13.

The thing that irks me is the dog and pony show garpax put on in the last season of Jimmy butler. They never intended to keep him and couldn't get the package they wanted for him. They patched together some last minute roster around him and gladly watched it perform to mediocrity. Then they lied to butler while Jimmy was recruiting for the franchise and they traded him. I could get with the notion of jimmy not being that guy if he had a roster comparable to what the heat or sixers had around jimmy and jimmy comes up short. He never got a true shot to succeed here. It was just determined by the front office and even a lot of fans that he wasn't it. This was a guy picked 29th in a draft and worked his way to a all star while here. You dont give up on a guy like that easily.

I'm glad the front office responsible for this blunder is gone. But we legit might be a trash franchise for the next 5 years or so on the back of a lot of bad decisions and moving on from jimmy without trying to build around him was a horrible decision. Fans got sold the "rebuild hope drug" smh
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#211 » by TheStig » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:12 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:Butler in his last year with us was Superstar-level good. top 5-8. He was 3rd in the NBA in Win Shares. It's honestly shocking that the Bulls traded that version of him.

He has declined a bit since then and is now in the 10-15 range I'd say. But unlike some of the other 'star' players in his present tier where it can get sketchy if their offense is sputtering, he's a no-doubt winning basketball player.

I don't think he's declined. He is a lower usage guy in general. I think he really picks his spots and focuses on facilitating a lot. He does the little things a lot to make winning. He really picks his spots. Our team had no one other than a old wade and Niko. He had to do much more here.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#212 » by TheSuzerain » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:16 pm

TheStig wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Butler in his last year with us was Superstar-level good. top 5-8. He was 3rd in the NBA in Win Shares. It's honestly shocking that the Bulls traded that version of him.

He has declined a bit since then and is now in the 10-15 range I'd say. But unlike some of the other 'star' players in his present tier where it can get sketchy if their offense is sputtering, he's a no-doubt winning basketball player.

I don't think he's declined. He is a lower usage guy in general. I think he really picks his spots and focuses on facilitating a lot. He does the little things a lot to make winning. He really picks his spots. Our team had no one other than a old wade and Niko. He had to do much more here.

I think you're describing a form of decline.

Also, I think the Bulls supporting cast in 2017 was the exact opposite of what you'd want to make Jimmy's life easier. No shooting. A bunch of defensive liabilities. It was a pathetic job of building a supporting cast. Theoretically, if the Bulls did have some shooting/passing around 2017 Jimmy, his stats could have been even better than they already were.

Compare that to the Heat, who are a well-constructed supporting cast around Butler. They are maximizing his current talents.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#213 » by drosereturn » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:18 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:Butler in his last year with us was Superstar-level good. top 5-8. He was 3rd in the NBA in Win Shares. It's honestly shocking that the Bulls traded that version of him.

He has declined a bit since then and is now in the 10-15 range I'd say. But unlike some of the other 'star' players in his present tier where it can get sketchy if their offense is sputtering, he's a no-doubt winning basketball player.


His impact is superstar but in reality he provides little value to the Bulls since he is low usage like in the 20s. Which is why I always prefer guys like Young Harden Morant bc they give you similar impact yet higher usage and in an empty team like the Bulls its much better.

Even if Butler bought AD would still need 1 more high usage star to be legit contenders bc both suck at number 1. Kinda ironic Butler demands like an Alpha when he plays like a 3rd option.
Basically he is the anti Lavine but I dont like both which is why prime Rose was a match made in heaven.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#214 » by Ice Man » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:36 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:Compare that to the Heat, who are a well-constructed supporting cast around Butler. They are maximizing his current talents.


I don't think there's any question that 2020 Butler has declined from the 2017 version.

That 2017 guy was a monster. Forty points to carry his team to a 2-point win over the Nets, then 25 and 26 in losses, then 52 to beat Charlotte, then 20 in a win against the Cavs, then 42 to be the Raptors' daddy, etc. He carried the offensive load, again and again, while anchoring the defense. To relatively little credit, because it was a crap team that could never accomplish much, but Butler was a flat-out beast.

The 2020 Butler needs to pick his spots. He's a bit slower and doesn't have the same energy. He wouldn't be as good on a bad team like those 2017 Bulls, because he can't carry the same load. But he's probably just as good as the 2017 version on a deep team like the Heat, which has a bunch of good offensive options. For this team, having Butler defer on offense is usually the right decision.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#215 » by dougthonus » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:37 pm

TeamMan wrote:I think that the one quote (in what you posted) that I completely disagree with is that Butler is a top 15-20 player.

IMO he's one of the few players in the NBA (at this time) that you can build a team around. And the Heat proved it.


The Heat aren't an elite team though. They're a good team that has had a great playoff run. All props to the Heat for what they have done and putting together great pieces and performing WAY above the sum of their parts. However, recognize that they are performing WAY above the sum of their parts.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#216 » by Mbrahv0528 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:43 pm

ThreeMileAllan wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:Ok, it's official. A large portion of this board owes Jimmy Butler a big apology.
This board doesn't want to admit it, but the front office listened to them and took their feedback into account. It is why the front office changed directions so. Damn. Often.

Yes, thats the front office fault for bending to loud people on the internet and media instead of sticking to their plan. But its also the fans for not appreciating when we have bona-fide talent on our team in favor of lottery balls.... hoping... hoping... we can get players that may eventually turn into the players we traded away.

Micheal Jordan isn't walking through that door folks. LeBron James isn't walking through that door. We are not marrying Heidi Klum. Jimmy Butler, Derrick Rose, Natalie Dormer are some pretty darn good alternatives.



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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#217 » by TheSuzerain » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:52 pm

dougthonus wrote:
TeamMan wrote:I think that the one quote (in what you posted) that I completely disagree with is that Butler is a top 15-20 player.

IMO he's one of the few players in the NBA (at this time) that you can build a team around. And the Heat proved it.


The Heat aren't an elite team though. They're a good team that has had a great playoff run. All props to the Heat for what they have done and putting together great pieces and performing WAY above the sum of their parts. However, recognize that they are performing WAY above the sum of their parts.

This is true to an extent, but it's also true that the Heat weren't playing to maximize their regular season success.

See their usage of Dragic. They very clearly were saving his legs for the playoffs and instead used the regular season to develop Nunn.

Couple that with mid-season acquisitions of Crowder and Iggy, and I think you have a team who is legitimately better than their overall season stats indicate.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#218 » by wickywack » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:57 pm

dougthonus wrote:
troza wrote:- Butler made his teams better. 76ers, Wolves and Bulls this season were all worse than when they had Butler
- All the things about his will to win and problems with other guys for not trying too hard... It just makes me wondering if he would fit into the dynasty team. Maybe he wasn't the best leader but he seems to have the right mindset. And I think that's why it is working fine in Miami, where there is a leader there and a coach that can deal with that.


Butler probably would have been good buddies with Jordan. Similar attitude and approach. He can definitely work with the right people around him, but Jordan was also a guy that grinded guys badly, and without Pippen / Jackson to balance him out as strong voices that Jordan respected, Jordan probably would have had a very negative impact on culture.

I think the same is true with Butler, but he didn't have a secondary star voice to bring guys up and balance him out or a great coach he trusted to help balance him out. He can have a good impact on culture, but it's also clear he can rub guys wrong very fast too.


The sad thing is that I think a pre-injury Rose would have been a very complementary leader to Butler. And both guys got on well with Thibs.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#219 » by Ice Man » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:01 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:Couple that with mid-season acquisitions of Crowder and Iggy.


I am generally skeptical of mid-season deals by teams that think they need a final piece or two, because often those players are washed up, and the team was not a contender anyway. But those guys have been HUGE for the Heat, because the Heat's biggest weakness was a lack of physicality/defense at the forward position, and those guys fixed that problem completely.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#220 » by dougthonus » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:14 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:This is true to an extent, but it's also true that the Heat weren't playing to maximize their regular season success.

See their usage of Dragic. They very clearly were saving his legs for the playoffs and instead used the regular season to develop Nunn.

Couple that with mid-season acquisitions of Crowder and Iggy, and I think you have a team who is legitimately better than their overall season stats indicate.


Fair points. I still think, even exactly as they are now, that they aren't legit title contenders.

That said, I'm rooting for them and the Nuggets, so I hope they prove me wrong!

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