Image ImageImage Image

How Good is Jimmy Butler?

Moderators: HomoSapien, Tommy Udo 6 , dougthonus, GimmeDat, DASMACKDOWN, Payt10, kulaz3000, fleet, RedBulls23, AshyLarrysDiaper, Ice Man

User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 47,353
And1: 7,428
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:

Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#221 » by dougthonus » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:16 pm

wickywack wrote:The sad thing is that I think a pre-injury Rose would have been a very complementary leader to Butler. And both guys got on well with Thibs.


I don't think they would have had problems pre-injury, but I don't think he would have been a good complement in leadership style. I don't think Derrick has much leadership at all. Luol Deng was probably a great complement in terms of leadership style.
BigJimFinn
Sophomore
Posts: 242
And1: 186
Joined: Nov 20, 2017
 

Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#222 » by BigJimFinn » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:32 pm

Susan wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:Well, Buckets continues to prove that the talent evaluation on this board is broken.


Just wait for Thibs turning the Knicks around. So many people couldn't get off the GarPax toxic train.


Do you think Thibs will murder James Dolan? Because that ship is turning nowhere but in circles as long his hand is on the tiller.
User avatar
FriedRise
Head Coach
Posts: 7,413
And1: 6,526
Joined: Jan 13, 2015
Location: Chicago
 

Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#223 » by FriedRise » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:42 pm

In addition to scoring and shooting, I can't believe he also added playmaking to his repertoire. I thought players aren't supposed to develop new skills after they've been drafted to the NBA.
Ice Man
Forum Mod - Bulls
Forum Mod - Bulls
Posts: 21,376
And1: 9,639
Joined: Apr 19, 2011

Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#224 » by Ice Man » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:51 pm

FriedRise wrote: I thought players aren't supposed to develop new skills after they've been drafted to the NBA.


No you didn't. You are just taking on those of us who sometimes make that argument. :D

As with most players, Jimmy Butler's college stats are a pretty good guide to the player he would be in the NBA. Efficient scorer, drew a ton of fouls, didn't foul much himself or commit turnovers, good free throw shooter, it's all there. The playmaking is the only exception, where he finished at a modest 2.7 assists per 40 minutes. Although even there his improvement was marked, as he was 1.5 assists per 40 his first year at Marquette.

So I will give you that one.
User avatar
Mech Engineer
RealGM
Posts: 16,719
And1: 4,734
Joined: Apr 10, 2012
Location: NW Suburbs

Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#225 » by Mech Engineer » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:34 pm

One last time...I have to put the whole Butler, Hoiberg fiasco on Paxson. He had the power to change everything. He just didn't have the vision to build a modern team and he couldn't recognize offensive talent nor find good PGs.
wickywack
Junior
Posts: 267
And1: 136
Joined: Jan 30, 2010

Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#226 » by wickywack » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:33 pm

dougthonus wrote:
wickywack wrote:The sad thing is that I think a pre-injury Rose would have been a very complementary leader to Butler. And both guys got on well with Thibs.


I don't think they would have had problems pre-injury, but I don't think he would have been a good complement in leadership style. I don't think Derrick has much leadership at all. Luol Deng was probably a great complement in terms of leadership style.


Pre-injury, I think Rose was a de facto leader just by being the best player on the team. Part of why Thibs worked out so quickly was (IMO) that his best player bought into his scheme without question. Rose wasn't vocal, but his teammates seemed to genuinely love the guy. The guy is sometimes blamed for not recruiting Lebron and co hard enough out of loyalty to Deng, etc.

It's a somewhat similar vibe I get when I hear 90s guys talk about Pippen (love) as opposed to Jordan (respect/fear).
User avatar
Mech Engineer
RealGM
Posts: 16,719
And1: 4,734
Joined: Apr 10, 2012
Location: NW Suburbs

Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#227 » by Mech Engineer » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:35 pm

wickywack wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
wickywack wrote:The sad thing is that I think a pre-injury Rose would have been a very complementary leader to Butler. And both guys got on well with Thibs.


I don't think they would have had problems pre-injury, but I don't think he would have been a good complement in leadership style. I don't think Derrick has much leadership at all. Luol Deng was probably a great complement in terms of leadership style.


Pre-injury, I think Rose was a de facto leader just by being the best player on the team. Part of why Thibs worked out so quickly was (IMO) that his best player bought into his scheme without question. Rose wasn't vocal, but his teammates seemed to genuinely love the guy. The guy is sometimes blamed for not recruiting Lebron and co hard enough out of loyalty to Deng, etc.

It's a somewhat similar vibe I get when I hear 90s guys talk about Pippen (love) as opposed to Jordan (respect/fear).


Rose was the leader the way you describe. But, he was young and wide-eyed too. He came into a team with no real offensive talent and that helped him. Even If he had a Lavine or Wiggins level talent, he would have run into problems because he would have had to share the ball.

Thibs or anyone would have worked with Rose in terms of buying in because he was a young kid. Jimmy was doing the dirty work the first few years. When incompetent guys like Hoiberg dictated the style of play, chemistry etc...he got upset.
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 47,353
And1: 7,428
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:

Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#228 » by dougthonus » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:59 pm

wickywack wrote:Pre-injury, I think Rose was a de facto leader just by being the best player on the team. Part of why Thibs worked out so quickly was (IMO) that his best player bought into his scheme without question. Rose wasn't vocal, but his teammates seemed to genuinely love the guy. The guy is sometimes blamed for not recruiting Lebron and co hard enough out of loyalty to Deng, etc.

It's a somewhat similar vibe I get when I hear 90s guys talk about Pippen (love) as opposed to Jordan (respect/fear).


There is leadership in terms of carrying the team with your skills and leadership in terms of getting everyone around you on the same page, to work together, to meld a greater sum of its parts. Rose was certainly the first type of leader, as the best player on any team generally is by default, but I don't think he did much in the second category.
TeamMan
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,278
And1: 420
Joined: Dec 11, 2002

Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#229 » by TeamMan » Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:26 am

Ice Man wrote:
TeamMan wrote: But it appears that it has become a topic that is forbidden to discuss.


Nah. Pretty much everybody here, Doug included, has criticized the Reinsdorfs plenty. Personally, I'd be happier if the team were in different hands. But I am cautiously optimistic that the ownership will let Karnisovas do his thing.

Do we have a nickname for Karnisovas, by the way? Is he to be AK?

I think that, for brevity, AK is good for now.

But if he makes some moves that get people excited, then I can see something more personal coming out like:

- "Karni"
- or "The Art"


Regarding criticizing ownership, in this thread there hasn't been much, or actually any (outside of myself).

Like you, I do have some optimism that they will keep on the gloves with AK until he gets his legs under him.

After all it appears that they finally "got it" with Gar/Pax that they'd lost their way.

But we don't know if that means that they'll actually change anything that they've been doing since MJ, Pip and company rode off into the sunset more than 20 years ago.
User avatar
TheStig
RealGM
Posts: 12,780
And1: 3,091
Joined: Jun 18, 2004
Location: Get rid of GarPaxDorf

Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#230 » by TheStig » Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:55 am

TheSuzerain wrote:
TheStig wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Butler in his last year with us was Superstar-level good. top 5-8. He was 3rd in the NBA in Win Shares. It's honestly shocking that the Bulls traded that version of him.

He has declined a bit since then and is now in the 10-15 range I'd say. But unlike some of the other 'star' players in his present tier where it can get sketchy if their offense is sputtering, he's a no-doubt winning basketball player.

I don't think he's declined. He is a lower usage guy in general. I think he really picks his spots and focuses on facilitating a lot. He does the little things a lot to make winning. He really picks his spots. Our team had no one other than a old wade and Niko. He had to do much more here.

I think you're describing a form of decline.

Also, I think the Bulls supporting cast in 2017 was the exact opposite of what you'd want to make Jimmy's life easier. No shooting. A bunch of defensive liabilities. It was a pathetic job of building a supporting cast. Theoretically, if the Bulls did have some shooting/passing around 2017 Jimmy, his stats could have been even better than they already were.

Compare that to the Heat, who are a well-constructed supporting cast around Butler. They are maximizing his current talents.

I think he can still go out there and produce big numbers. But he has scorers and creators around him and lets them get their rythm and plays within the system.

On the Bulls, he had to carry the load everynight. That was my point.
dice
RealGM
Posts: 36,849
And1: 9,899
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#231 » by dice » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:55 am

Mech Engineer wrote:One last time...I have to put the whole Butler, Hoiberg fiasco on Paxson. He had the power to change everything. He just didn't have the vision to build a modern team and he couldn't recognize offensive talent nor find good PGs.

i think that it was paxson abandoning his team building style in an ATTEMPT to create a modern team that was his downfall. zach lavine and lauri are more "modern nba" than jimmy is
check your voter registration status:

https://www.vote.org/
User avatar
ThreeMileAllan
Starter
Posts: 2,360
And1: 556
Joined: Feb 07, 2002
Location: San Diego via Chicago
       

Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#232 » by ThreeMileAllan » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:34 am

What was annoying was the Otto Porter trade.

Can you imagine if the Bulls had pulled off the coup of signing JB after getting Lavine and Lauri.

Truly this team is one playmaker 3 and D person away and some internal growth from being a good ass team.

COBY, lavine, butler, Lauri, wcj would have been a pretty good lineup. Talent wise I dont think its far off from Miami jfc.


It was just proof once again of Paxson listening too much to the haters and changing direction before his previous plan had a chance. If Pax had stopped chasing and just believed in one of his plans he would have been golden.

He made a good move by pushing his cap space to the next year and the year after as contingency by having Jabari on a 2nd year team option, giving the team a ton of flexibility and blows it on an injury prone Otto. Good value straight up but the opportunity cost of not rven trying free agency sucked. Worst case, sign another Jabari type flexible veteran contract, tank again, and get another draft pick.


There is talent here guys, it just needs the right kind of leader to push. Not a lead by example type like Kawhi or PG, but a light a fire under your ass type like JB.

One or both of Coby or Lavine have a chance at becoming a Jamal Murray but they can't be the playmaker. Lavine playmaker iq is low and Coby isn't a natural passer. But with the right playmakers they can really unlock their scoring ability. A JB like player would have been perfect.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
On the Crawford/Rose bandwagon in 2002... 2009, 2011, 2012, 2017... :laugh: Finally in 2018! 16 year wait!
User avatar
ThreeMileAllan
Starter
Posts: 2,360
And1: 556
Joined: Feb 07, 2002
Location: San Diego via Chicago
       

Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#233 » by ThreeMileAllan » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:41 am

dice wrote:
Mech Engineer wrote:One last time...I have to put the whole Butler, Hoiberg fiasco on Paxson. He had the power to change everything. He just didn't have the vision to build a modern team and he couldn't recognize offensive talent nor find good PGs.

i think that it was paxson abandoning his team building style in an ATTEMPT to create a modern team that was his downfall. zach lavine and lauri are more "modern nba" than jimmy is
Yup, I remember the narrative on this board for a long time was that the front office overvalued their players.

I dont think thats the issue, they're obviously willing to trade away fan favorites for low value if they think its the right move. (DRose for a Lopez and expirings?? Taj and Doug for Cam??)

When you step back and look at how Pax has made moves, two things are consistent, they are good at managing cap in clever ways (that they don't always take advantage of) and they change direction based on the blowing winds all. The. Time.


I haven't really seen more than a few people express this take, usually its Pax or Gar suck and can't recruit or whatever. But really they just give up too soon on every single plan they have.


Q

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
On the Crawford/Rose bandwagon in 2002... 2009, 2011, 2012, 2017... :laugh: Finally in 2018! 16 year wait!
troza
Sophomore
Posts: 236
And1: 56
Joined: Aug 19, 2011
   

Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#234 » by troza » Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:01 am

ThreeMileAllan wrote:I haven't really seen more than a few people express this take, usually its Pax or Gar suck and can't recruit or whatever. But really they just give up too soon on every single plan they have.




This and the fact that they never went all in with a plan anyways.

I'm a fan of having plan b but we can't second guess plan A before we need to actually go for plan b.

When we look back (oh, this unfair way of judging past actions) we never tanked hard enough (if we think about it... Lebron and Dondic drafts... we sucked and yet we didn't suck enough), we actually didn't go all in for free agents in 2010 (the Miami Heat went for all 3... when all other teams, including us, went only for one or two), we traded away Noah and Rose to rebuild but then got Wade and Rondo... we traded up in the draft but went for necessity instead of potential... we got Lauri but we don't get behind him as first option... I don't know.

Surely I'm being unfair but it really seems that we didn't went to hard with a plan except keep things going when Rose got injured... on the only time I would have loved for them to go the opposite direction (tank to get another potential star while giving Rose no pressure to come back ASAP).
Just_Bullz
Starter
Posts: 2,193
And1: 417
Joined: Nov 24, 2008

Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#235 » by Just_Bullz » Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:51 am

A Friday shout out to the Deng Slayer.

A role model for those who believes hard work can bring you somewhere. Respect, reward, recognition.
User avatar
HomoSapien
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 28,184
And1: 16,767
Joined: Aug 17, 2009
 

Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#236 » by HomoSapien » Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:38 am

A Jimmy Butler led team is 2 games away from the NBA finals.
ThreeYearPlan wrote:Bulls fans defend HomoSapien more than Rose.
User avatar
johnnyvann840
RealGM
Posts: 33,526
And1: 18,094
Joined: Sep 04, 2010

Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#237 » by johnnyvann840 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:39 am

--
I am more than just a serious basketball fan. I am a life-long addict. I was addicted from birth. - Hunter S. Thompson
User avatar
johnnyvann840
RealGM
Posts: 33,526
And1: 18,094
Joined: Sep 04, 2010

Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#238 » by johnnyvann840 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:39 am

Tonight, it's the huge defensive play down the stretch to close out. Jimmy is just a closer. Makes two big FT's to slam the door shut for good too. He just contributes in every facet of the game. Mr. 4th Q.

Wow. Miami with just one loss so far in the playoffs (and it was in OT) and now just two wins away from the freaking NBA Finals. Go Jimmy.
I am more than just a serious basketball fan. I am a life-long addict. I was addicted from birth. - Hunter S. Thompson
User avatar
johnnyvann840
RealGM
Posts: 33,526
And1: 18,094
Joined: Sep 04, 2010

Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#239 » by johnnyvann840 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:43 am

HomoSapien wrote:A Jimmy Butler led team is 2 games away from the NBA finals.


He's not the kind of player that can get a team to the Finals though. Just not good enough to build with.... and he's such a cancer that guys like Bobby Portis, D. Valentine and Cam Payne don't want to play with him.


oh, and trading him was still the right move at the time. lol
I am more than just a serious basketball fan. I am a life-long addict. I was addicted from birth. - Hunter S. Thompson
User avatar
HomoSapien
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 28,184
And1: 16,767
Joined: Aug 17, 2009
 

Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#240 » by HomoSapien » Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:44 am

johnnyvann840 wrote:Tonight, it's the huge defensive play down the stretch to close out. Jimmy is just a closer. Makes two big FT's to slam the door shut for good too. He just contributes in every facet of the game. Mr. 4th Q.

Wow. Miami with just one loss so far in the playoffs (and it was in OT) and now just two wins away from the freaking NBA Finals. Go Jimmy.


Yep. And he's doing this without the help of a super team. The talent level on their roster is something we could've replicated.
ThreeYearPlan wrote:Bulls fans defend HomoSapien more than Rose.

Return to Chicago Bulls