How Good is Jimmy Butler?

[ThreeMileAllan]

I hope we never have to hear how tanking is the way to go by trading away a top 10 player.

Tankers got their wish and they were objectively wrong

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[Ice Man]

I hope we never have to hear how tanking is the way to go by trading away a top 10 player.

Tankers got their wish and they were objectively wrong

For me, it's not about this case specifically, it's about the body of evidence. I can't even tell you when the last time a team made the Finals because it tanked. I mean, the only case you can make is for Cleveland and that's almost entirely bogus, because if LeBron wasn't from Akron the Cavs would never have got him, and without LeBron that team would not have ever hit .500. It was awful with Kyrie as the team leader, and without LeBron Kyrie would have stayed as team leader because Kevin Love would have gone elsewhere and the Cavs would have drafted Wiggins. Yuck.

The case for tanking is either ancient history or projecting some current up-and-coming team as being the tanking team to break through. Because in recent memory, it hasn't happened.

[TheStig]

I said it at the time. I wish we kept Jimmy and gave him a chance to recruit for us. He got us Wade and Rondo one year. He could have gotten us someone better. But we blew it up because he was pushing a terrible coach and terrible lazy young guys to be better.

He's led all the teams on he's been in the last few years to their best of the last 5 years. Bulls and Wolves haven't sniffed playoffs since he's been gone and Sixers got swept in the first round with their gazzilion dollar line up.

Jimmy is a top 15 player and more importantly, a winner. It's a shame Pax checked out because a halfway decent exec could have seen that Butler is the winner and Gar, Hoiberg and Valentine are losers. Hell even a HOF player in Wade was saying it.

[Ice Man]

But we blew it up because he was pushing a terrible coach and terrible lazy young guys to be better.

I'm not sure that they were lazy. Jimmy suggested that, but I think it's quite possible that he was taking out his frustration when saying that -- frustration that he wasn't in sync with the organization. With the Heat, when a player talks, that guy is also speaking for Riley and Spo. And when Riley and Spo talk, they are speaking for the players. They are all in it together. That might have been the case under the early GarPax years, but not when Butler was here. It was everybody for himself. The sort of place where people point fingers.

I am so very much looking forward to see the New Era Bulls.

[dice]

if LeBron wasn't from Akron the Cavs would never have got him

you realize that both jim paxson and john lucas admitted to tanking in order to draft lebron in the first place, right? and had they not drafted him, there never would have been the backlash when he left and he likely wouldn't have felt compelled to return ("i'm from akron, not cleveland"). michael jordan never felt compelled to return home and play for the hornets. nor magic johnson for the pistons. or larry bird for the pacers. or kareem for the knicks. or kobe for the sixers. or shaq for the spurs. or durant for the wizards. etc. ad nauseum

and the spurs tanked for duncan. and the mavs might not have ended up w/ luka w/o tanking. the pelicans certainly wouldn't have ended up w/ zion w/o tanking. will those two players never win championships? we'll just have to wait and see

[RedBulls23]

if LeBron wasn't from Akron the Cavs would never have got him

you realize that both jim paxson and john lucas admitted to tanking in order to draft lebron in the first place, right? and had they not drafted him, there never would have been the backlash when he left and he likely wouldn't have felt compelled to return ("i'm from akron, not cleveland")

and the spurs tanked for duncan. and the mavs might not have ended up w/ luka w/o tanking. the pelicans certainly wouldn't have ended up w/ zion w/o tanking. will those two never win championships? we'll just have to wait and see

Tanking makes sense IF you don't have a all-nba top 10-15 star on your roster. Certainly you don't trade him away when he is fully committed to your team and wants to help make them great again.

Also that Spurs team didn't tank by blowing it up. They had injuries and were bad because of that.

Trading Jimmy never made any sense. Then on top of that they decided to not actually fully commit to tanking properly because of some weird philosophy of not building a losing culture.

[Ugly Duckling]

His competitive spirit and drive to become great is, dare I say, Jordanesque. And GarPax chose Hoiberg over him.

Only the Bulls, only the Bulls...

Exactly...that plus his ability to understood the tempo of the game is invaluable. Rose never could do that.

Jimmy might not be the most talented, athletic player on the floor but he has that knack of when to use his teammates and when to do it himself. That's a skill very few stars have.

The Bulls could have easily paired him with another high end all star and probably got another Allstar type in the draft or traded for one. They missed a golden opportunity they had in their hands by foolishly chasing after delusional, imaginary super teams.

Haha 2011 Rose was the tempo of the game, so he didn't need to understand it. But you're right about Jimmy's ability to play within himself. Very cerebral. Composed. Knows when to speed it up and slow it down. Not scared of the moment

[dice]

I said it at the time. I wish we kept Jimmy and gave him a chance to recruit for us. He got us Wade and Rondo one year. He could have gotten us someone better. But we blew it up because he was pushing a terrible coach and terrible lazy young guys to be better.

He's led all the teams on he's been in the last few years to their best of the last 5 years. Bulls and Wolves haven't sniffed playoffs since he's been gone and Sixers got swept in the first round with their gazzilion dollar line up.

Jimmy is a top 15 player and more importantly, a winner. It's a shame Pax checked out because a halfway decent exec could have seen that Butler is the winner and Gar, Hoiberg and Valentine are losers. Hell even a HOF player in Wade was saying it.

the sixers don't have a "gazzilion dollar lineup." they have a normal payroll. and they got swept in part because ben simmons didn't play. and it's not like they fell apart this season after jimmy left. replacing him and redick w/ horford and richardson only dropped their winning percentage from .622 to .589

i always liked jimmy, but when i heard that they were putting him on the block to avoid maxing him out from age 30-34, i shrugged my shoulders. 'cause it made some sense. wasn't pleased with what we got in return, however

[dice]

if LeBron wasn't from Akron the Cavs would never have got him

you realize that both jim paxson and john lucas admitted to tanking in order to draft lebron in the first place, right? and had they not drafted him, there never would have been the backlash when he left and he likely wouldn't have felt compelled to return ("i'm from akron, not cleveland")

and the spurs tanked for duncan. and the mavs might not have ended up w/ luka w/o tanking. the pelicans certainly wouldn't have ended up w/ zion w/o tanking. will those two never win championships? we'll just have to wait and see

Tanking makes sense IF you don't have a all-nba top 10-15 star on your roster. Certainly you don't trade him away when he is fully committed to your team and wants to help make them great again.

can't argue with that. but the bulls didn't trade jimmy in order to tank. they tanked after they felt compelled to trade jimmy and no longer had a competitive roster in the short-term. big difference

Also that Spurs team didn't tank by blowing it up. They had injuries and were bad because of that.[/quote]
they had injuries and didn't bring those injured players back when they could have. of course, they could claim abundance of caution or wasted season, but the results were the same

Trading Jimmy never made any sense.

sure it did. it was a long-term decision, the consequences of which cannot be close to properly judged in 2020...or 2021...or 2022. unless he leads a team to a title or at least gets to the finals in the interim (which could well happen in a couple of weeks)

Then on top of that they decided to not actually fully commit to tanking properly because of some weird philosophy of not building a losing culture.

agreed

[TheStig]

I said it at the time. I wish we kept Jimmy and gave him a chance to recruit for us. He got us Wade and Rondo one year. He could have gotten us someone better. But we blew it up because he was pushing a terrible coach and terrible lazy young guys to be better.

He's led all the teams on he's been in the last few years to their best of the last 5 years. Bulls and Wolves haven't sniffed playoffs since he's been gone and Sixers got swept in the first round with their gazzilion dollar line up.

Jimmy is a top 15 player and more importantly, a winner. It's a shame Pax checked out because a halfway decent exec could have seen that Butler is the winner and Gar, Hoiberg and Valentine are losers. Hell even a HOF player in Wade was saying it.

the sixers don't have a "gazzilion dollar lineup." they have a normal payroll. and they got swept in part because ben simmons didn't play. and it's not like they fell apart this season after jimmy left. replacing him and redick w/ horford and richardson only dropped their winning percentage from .622 to .589

i always liked jimmy, but when i heard that they were putting him on the block to avoid maxing him out from age 30-34, i shrugged my shoulders. 'cause it made some sense. wasn't pleased with what we got in return, however

It's a gizzilion dollar line up. Simmons (kicking in next year), Embid and Harris make the max. Hortford is making a big deal. Richardson is making an average salary. No one else on that team even makes the MLE. So yeah, that's by far the highest paid lineup in the league. It's almost 4 max guys.

Not only did they win less, that team was a shot in game 7 away from beating the champion. This year, they got swept a round earlier. It's a big difference. And I stand by my point. That was the 76ers peak. It's a factual statement.

It's funny you say that because he just hit 30 this year and it seems like we traded him ages ago. Not to mention that he's not a overly athletic guy that falls off, he's very smart and uses strength, iq and positoning.

[TheStig]

But we blew it up because he was pushing a terrible coach and terrible lazy young guys to be better.

I'm not sure that they were lazy. Jimmy suggested that, but I think it's quite possible that he was taking out his frustration when saying that -- frustration that he wasn't in sync with the organization. With the Heat, when a player talks, that guy is also speaking for Riley and Spo. And when Riley and Spo talk, they are speaking for the players. They are all in it together. That might have been the case under the early GarPax years, but not when Butler was here. It was everybody for himself. The sort of place where people point fingers.

I am so very much looking forward to see the New Era Bulls.

I've seen the new era bulls post Butler and they suck. Not much to look at.

[HINrichPolice]

I never got around to changing my signature... but I guess I never had to.

[mtron32]

Well, for one thing I would certainly make him General Manager. He was right about Hoiberg, he was right about KAT and Wiggins, he was right about Philly and made the right choice in going to Miami.

He speaks up and that bothers a lot of people, particularly those who think that players should shut up and play. When he speaks up though, he is correct and time has proven that out.

As far as a player, I think he is clearly top 10 if you actually want to win a game or a playoff series.

Preach on man. If you don't want to win a chip then why are you in the NBA? That man is on a mission and I can't believe we ever traded him or that fans actually WANTED to trade him.

[dice]

I said it at the time. I wish we kept Jimmy and gave him a chance to recruit for us. He got us Wade and Rondo one year. He could have gotten us someone better. But we blew it up because he was pushing a terrible coach and terrible lazy young guys to be better.

He's led all the teams on he's been in the last few years to their best of the last 5 years. Bulls and Wolves haven't sniffed playoffs since he's been gone and Sixers got swept in the first round with their gazzilion dollar line up.

Jimmy is a top 15 player and more importantly, a winner. It's a shame Pax checked out because a halfway decent exec could have seen that Butler is the winner and Gar, Hoiberg and Valentine are losers. Hell even a HOF player in Wade was saying it.

the sixers don't have a "gazzilion dollar lineup." they have a normal payroll. and they got swept in part because ben simmons didn't play. and it's not like they fell apart this season after jimmy left. replacing him and redick w/ horford and richardson only dropped their winning percentage from .622 to .589

i always liked jimmy, but when i heard that they were putting him on the block to avoid maxing him out from age 30-34, i shrugged my shoulders. 'cause it made some sense. wasn't pleased with what we got in return, however

It's a gizzilion dollar line up. Simmons (kicking in next year), Embid and Harris make the max. Hortford is making a big deal. Richardson is making an average salary. No one else on that team even makes the MLE. So yeah, that's by far the highest paid lineup in the league. It's almost 4 max guys.

kinda an important point. you didn't specify STARTING lineup. nor did you say anything about next year. in 2019-2010 they had a standard payroll

Not only did they win less, that team was a shot in game 7 away from beating the champion. This year, they got swept a round earlier. It's a big difference.

again completely ignoring that simmons didn't play in this year's playoffs

And I stand by my point. That was the 76ers peak. It's a factual statement.

a statement that nobody has contested

saying that jimmy butler makes any team better is not a remotely interesting point. the bulls knew they were going to be worse when they lost him. as did the wolves. and the sixers didn't want to lose him

It's funny you say that because he just hit 30 this year and it seems like we traded him ages ago.

well, we didn't trade him ages ago. it SEEMS like we did because he's played for 3 other teams in 3 years

Not to mention that he's not a overly athletic guy that falls off, he's very smart and uses strength, iq and positoning.

i agree. he's still certainly gonna fall off by the end of his contract. probably not much, but who knows

[coldfish]

I have been pro Butler in this thread and elsewhere but I came around to trading him at the end and I stand by that. More so now than even at the time. Jimmy walked away from Philly and demanded out in Minnesota. It was only a matter of time until he was gone and he was going to lose trade value by the day.

Now, is what they got for him the best possible trade? That's a matter for another discussion. Hell, if they had drafted Bam with pick 7 instead of Lauri the trade would look a lot better right now.

[meekrab]

He's Kawhi without the benefit of being drafted and developed by the Spurs.

[DuckIII]

I’m a Butler fan, and happy for his success, and still believe without equivocation that trading him in the precise situation we were in was absolutely the right thing to do.

As for this series, it’s a playoff upset, not contention. But if Miami adds another stud then look out. Butler is outstanding.

[TheStig]

I have been pro Butler in this thread and elsewhere but I came around to trading him at the end and I stand by that. More so now than even at the time. Jimmy walked away from Philly and demanded out in Minnesota. It was only a matter of time until he was gone and he was going to lose trade value by the day.

Now, is what they got for him the best possible trade? That's a matter for another discussion. Hell, if they had drafted Bam with pick 7 instead of Lauri the trade would look a lot better right now.

To be fair, Jimmy's leaving was financially motivated. Glen Taylor chose to max Wiggins instead of paying Jimmy. Had they given him an extenstion he'd have been there. The 76ers didn't bring the 5 year max. They chose to give Harris the 5 year max and not Jimmy. He is making the most money he can in Miami with no state income tax. I feel if the Bulls gave Jimmy the 5 year max, he'd have been a Bull. And i couldn't see him leaving here if we kept Thibs for him. He's a guy that wanted to be the face of the franchise and be part of a hard working team.

[Ugly Duckling]

I have been pro Butler in this thread and elsewhere but I came around to trading him at the end and I stand by that. More so now than even at the time. Jimmy walked away from Philly and demanded out in Minnesota. It was only a matter of time until he was gone and he was going to lose trade value by the day.

Now, is what they got for him the best possible trade? That's a matter for another discussion. Hell, if they had drafted Bam with pick 7 instead of Lauri the trade would look a lot better right now.

Wrong. He made it abundantly clear that he wanted to be Bull. He was traded to the Wolves without being consulted and was an UFA after his stint in Philly, so picked the best situation for him

[TheStig]

the sixers don't have a "gazzilion dollar lineup." they have a normal payroll. and they got swept in part because ben simmons didn't play. and it's not like they fell apart this season after jimmy left. replacing him and redick w/ horford and richardson only dropped their winning percentage from .622 to .589

i always liked jimmy, but when i heard that they were putting him on the block to avoid maxing him out from age 30-34, i shrugged my shoulders. 'cause it made some sense. wasn't pleased with what we got in return, however

It's a gizzilion dollar line up. Simmons (kicking in next year), Embid and Harris make the max. Hortford is making a big deal. Richardson is making an average salary. No one else on that team even makes the MLE. So yeah, that's by far the highest paid lineup in the league. It's almost 4 max guys.

kinda an important point. you didn't specify STARTING lineup. nor did you say anything about next year. in 2019-2010 they had a standard payroll

Not only did they win less, that team was a shot in game 7 away from beating the champion. This year, they got swept a round earlier. It's a big difference.

again completely ignoring that simmons didn't play in this year's playoffs

And I stand by my point. That was the 76ers peak. It's a factual statement.

a statement that nobody has contested

saying that jimmy butler makes any team better is not a remotely interesting point. the bulls knew they were going to be worse when they lost him. as did the wolves. and the sixers didn't want to lose him

It's funny you say that because he just hit 30 this year and it seems like we traded him ages ago.

well, we didn't trade him ages ago. it SEEMS like we did because he's played for 3 other teams in 3 years

Not to mention that he's not a overly athletic guy that falls off, he's very smart and uses strength, iq and positoning.

i agree. he's still certainly gonna fall off by the end of his contract. probably not much, but who knows

Bleh, Hortford comes off the bench. It's still a massive payroll. And it's all in 4-5 players. No one else gets paid.

With or without Simmons, that team wasn't getting out of the first round. They have serious roster definces and don't seem like they want to be together or fit. They're just there for the big bucks.

That actually was my main point. The Bulls were a solid playoff team with Butler and nearly knocked off Bron with an old Gasol. The Wolves made the playoffs for the only time in 15 years and were playing even better before his meniscus tear. The 76ers took the champions all the way to a final shot in game 7. The Heat missed the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years and now are undefeated in the playoffs. THAT IS THE POINT! The guy is a WINNER! He works hard, he's high iq, he makes plays, he plays both ends of the floor and he's a top 15 player easily. You don't let that guy go in the begining of his prime. You build around him.