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How Good is Jimmy Butler?

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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#601 » by Ugly Duckling » Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:49 am

dice wrote:
Ugly Duckling wrote:
dice wrote:how many players are superstars at age 34? because the bulls would have been paying butler like a superstar at age 34

there were plenty of people, myself included, who thought that jimmy COULD lead a team to the finals. but not a single person that i'm aware of predicted that it would happen


Well you could make the argument that he's outplaying LeBron rn, who's 35. Not saying Jimmy could have the same longevity as LeBron, but his game looks like it'll age well. Sometimes you have to overpay towards the end of a contract to win. If you think about it, it's like he'll be getting more than the super max for the yrs which he's in his prime and less when he's not, even though that's not how his salary is paid out. $40 million is an underpay for him rn the way he's playing. Also have to account for inflation, although with the pandemic, that'll prob be flattened

if you're planning to pay a guy like a superstar at age 34 but don't expect him to PLAY like one at that age, there has to be an upside earlier in the contract...like jimmy is providing right now. and again, nobody expected jimmy to be staring down lebron in the finals at any point


Pat Riley did
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#602 » by dice » Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:30 am

Ugly Duckling wrote:
dice wrote:
Ugly Duckling wrote:
Well you could make the argument that he's outplaying LeBron rn, who's 35. Not saying Jimmy could have the same longevity as LeBron, but his game looks like it'll age well. Sometimes you have to overpay towards the end of a contract to win. If you think about it, it's like he'll be getting more than the super max for the yrs which he's in his prime and less when he's not, even though that's not how his salary is paid out. $40 million is an underpay for him rn the way he's playing. Also have to account for inflation, although with the pandemic, that'll prob be flattened

if you're planning to pay a guy like a superstar at age 34 but don't expect him to PLAY like one at that age, there has to be an upside earlier in the contract...like jimmy is providing right now. and again, nobody expected jimmy to be staring down lebron in the finals at any point


Pat Riley did

seriously doubt it. if he did it seems to me he would have traded for him earlier
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#603 » by RedBulls23 » Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:38 am

dice wrote:
Ugly Duckling wrote:
dice wrote:if you're planning to pay a guy like a superstar at age 34 but don't expect him to PLAY like one at that age, there has to be an upside earlier in the contract...like jimmy is providing right now. and again, nobody expected jimmy to be staring down lebron in the finals at any point


Pat Riley did

seriously doubt it. if he did it seems to me he would have traded for him earlier

Heat tried trading for Jimmy the year before when he was traded to the Sixers.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#604 » by dice » Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:41 am

RedBulls23 wrote:
dice wrote:
Ugly Duckling wrote:
Pat Riley did

seriously doubt it. if he did it seems to me he would have traded for him earlier

Heat tried trading for Jimmy the year before when he was traded to the Sixers.

so they weren't willing to match a package of saric + covington for an extra year of jimmy. and they weren't willing to match minnesota's mediocre package to the bulls for 2 extra years of jimmy
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#605 » by TeamMan » Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:46 am

dice wrote:
TeamMan wrote:
dice wrote:not wanting to pay him had nothing to do with profit. it was all about his ability to earn a supermax payout from age 30-34. because if he couldn't (and nobody should have expected him to), it would hamper the ability to build a contender


they knew they were going to miss the playoffs for at least a year after trading jimmy. the jimmy trade SHOULD have put an end to the nonsense about JR only being interested in playoff revenue. because the organization clearly wasn't satisfied with jimmy butler leading them to a low playoff seed year in and year out and they didn't think that they could build a genuine perennial contender around him


sure. but if his game falls off over the next few seasons, they'll be able to justify their actions once again (to themselves, anyway). particularly if the bulls pass the heat at some point during that period of time

Will try to respond to all of your points without breaking your post into pieces...

After the Bulls missed the playoffs (following trading JB) there was a press release that came out saying that JR was shocked at how much revenue that it cost the team (even though he'd been warned) and his only goal was to get back to the playoffs again.

So, it appeared, that in his evaluation, making it to the playoffs (even if it was only the 1st round) would have justified paying JB. The Bulls had been doing it (off and on) for most of the years since the end of the dynasty, and JR appeared to be completely happy with it (the profit).

Now, in the aftermath of all of the firings, it also appears that Gar/Pax were indeed given that ultimatum that so many people refused to believe. So, it was not the "organization's decision", it was a Gar/Pax decision that cost them their jobs. And JR had been talked into it (missing the playoffs), but afterward felt that he'd been mislead on the revenue/profit loss that was going to happen.

So, IMO JR looked at what happened when JB got to the T-Wolves, and thought "They are getting the revenue that I could have had if we'd kept him and went to the playoffs another year".

all "playoff revenue" is not equal. squeaking into the playoffs and getting the revenue from 2-3 home playoff games is wildly different from the revenue that comes from a deep run. and the deep run has additional financial benefits that go beyond ticket sales (nobody buys a 'bulls 2021 playoff qualifier' t-shirt, for example). i find it hard to believe that jerry reinsdorf, whose team won six damn championships and sold out games for many YEARS after it despite fielding many garbage teams, doesn't know the difference

As far as rebuilding around JB, what the Heat did (in terms of rebuilding) was easily achievable by most of the teams in the NBA (including the Bulls).

The difference was that the Heat had Riley and Spoelstra.

So, JR made (the correct ) decision that Gar/Pax had to go

you make it sound like duplicating the heat culture is easy. it isn't. neither is hitting on all the personnel moves that the heat did. ironically, john paxson was one of the few that has accomplished something similar. early in his executive career he fielded a team that was missing only a guy like jimmy butler. and then he drafted jimmy butler!

The truth is, they got lucky with both Rose and JB, because their talent evaluation skills had nothing to do with picking those two players. JB was simply the best player available at the end of the 1st round, after virtually every other team in the league had already passed on him.

this is mostly false. first of all, derrick was not a slam dunk pick. some were advocating for beasley. secondly, derrick ended up costing the bulls wins in the long-term because of his injury and huge contract. at the end of the day, derrick gave us a lot of hope, but really only delivered 2 outstanding regular seasons. then he blew a huge 5 year hole in our cap space just as jimmy was coming into his own. terrible luck. finally, jimmy was widely projected in the 2nd round. go back and look at the draft thread - absolutely nobody here was pining for jimmy butler. nothing like "well, guess we've gotta take jimmy since he's fallen to #30"

But once they had him, they didn't appreciate their luck and thought, "We're so smart that we can just do it again"

they surely didn't think this after so many misses AFTER drafting jimmy. it was a clear case of them not thinking that he could earn a supermax contract from age 30-34, so might as well trade him rather than "lose him for nothing"

So, they deserved to be fired.

they should never have been permitted to make the decision to trade jimmy and rebuild in the first place...because of the lack of success for years after drafting jimmy. they should have been let go and someone else could have made the decision on how to proceed

Responding to highlighted items...

- JR: No matter what we believe, it was released to the press that JR was not happy with the loss of revenue. That he fired Gar/Pax is the proof.

- Heat culture: It's not easy, but Riley and Spoelstra make it look easy. However, I have no window into how their ownership backs them, but most likely it is the 3rd element that makes the Heat culture work.

- Rose pick: I looked at some highlight clips of Beasley, and even I could see, that he was not even in the same league as Rose. But that doesn't change the fact that it was luck that they got the #1 pick to begin with.

Plus Rose's one year in college was close to setting the all time number of wins for a team in a season. Picking him was, in fact, a slam dunk. (Plus I remember the look on Riley's face when he was forced to pick Beasley. Never saw someone so depressed to have to make the 2nd pick in a draft.)

- Rose cap space: Whatever was going on with revenue, it appeared to keep JR happy. It was after Rose and JB were gone that he got unhappy, very unhappy.

- JB draft pick: I remember very well what occurred during that draft. JB was an amazing stat-stuffer across multiple categories. And at the time I was thinking that it was sad that the Bulls wouldn't be able to get him in the 2nd round. The main reason that he wasn't projected for the 1st round was because of his age. I was actually surprised that the Bulls pick him at #30. However, there was no doubt in my mind that he was the PBA.

- Letting go of Gar/Pax: To me this is another way of saying fired. So it appears that we agree on this one thing, except that you think they should have been fired even earlier.
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How impressed were you to see Jimmy Butler lead his team to the finals? 

Post#606 » by TheBomb81 » Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:45 pm

    I know you guys wish he was still on your team, huh? Props to the Heat for a wonderful season and hopefully Jimmy can win a championship in Miami.
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    Re: How impressed were you to see Jimmy Butler lead his team to the finals? 

    Post#607 » by dougthonus » Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:58 pm

    TheBomb81 wrote:
      I know you guys wish he was still on your team, huh? Props to the Heat for a wonderful season and hopefully Jimmy can win a championship in Miami.


      Moved to one of the several long threads on Butler.
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      Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

      Post#608 » by PhilLeotardo » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:09 pm

      In response to the deleted thread: Serious question?

      If LaVine doesn’t blow up into at the very least a Lillard-level player, the trade will go down as the worst trade in the NBA over the past decade, and undoubtedly the worst trade in Bulls history (which is really saying something). Dunn is nothing, and I don’t see Markkanen ever blossoming into a star winning player, too slow/lumbering & bad defense

      It is going to take the Bulls a long, long time to eclipse that trade. There was simply no excuse for it. “We can’t do our jobs properly, and we’d rather be surrounded by our frat boy buddies/people we’re comfortable with than win. So we’re going to trade you”. That is the definition of toxic unprofessionalism, in any workplace

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      Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

      Post#609 » by Ice Man » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:10 pm

      Pau giving a shoutout to Jimmy. Jimmy has something of a rep for fighting with his teammates, before he was on the Heat, but that was by no means universally true. When guys liked him, they really liked him.

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      Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

      Post#610 » by Am2626 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:15 am

      PhilLeotardo wrote:
      Am2626 wrote:
      nomorezorro wrote:
      we didn't lose the trade because the trade was so bad that we actually fired our untouchable gm

      i guess that's one way of looking at it


      The Bulls didn’t fire Paxson. He went to the Reinsdorf’s and told them he was no longer the best person for the job. He would still be the GM if he wanted to be.


      And you know this how? No one knows what precisely went down besides the individuals that were present throughout the endless waking nightmare that was the past 4 years, and it’s inevitable conclusion. No one knows who said behind closed doors

      Paxson got demoted. He’s friendly with ownership, so they allowed him to say he “stepped down” & bow out “gracefully”, but he didn’t step down. He essentially got fired from his previous position but gets to keep collecting a small paycheck, and his partner was fired altogether

      You can bet there was a ton of infighting within the Bulls brass over the past 5 years, and probably several different warring collectives/camps (Michael vs Jerry/Jon, Gar vs Jon, etc who the hell knows), but ultimately, if we’re just going off of actual events that have taken place, it seems like Jerry gave PaxGar one final shot at building something worthwhile & proving themselves, and they blew it, which lead to Michael R going “see?? I told you, they have no idea what they’re doing, we need to burn it down & hire professionals, we are destroying this franchise & people aren’t coming to games anymore”

      Michael seems to be running ownership duties completely now, and wasted no time in firing everyone & burning the entire thing to the ground. The FO wasn’t rebuilt from the ground up because “Pax decided to step down” lol. They were flirting with the point of no return


      In Michael Reinsdorf’s press conference introducing AK he stated specifically that Paxson came to him and Jerry and told them that he believed he was no longer the best person to lead this group. Paxson couldn’t handle the negativity that he was facing from fans and the media.
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      Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

      Post#611 » by Truebiscuit » Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:17 am

      Ice Man wrote:
      Truebiscuit wrote:I've said it a million times, so this will make one million and one: You will NEVER win an NBA title with Jimmy Butler as your best player.

      Never.


      And you were *that close* to being wrong all one million times, because all it took was LBJ to tear his plantar rather than Goran and the Heat would have won the FInals.

      But feel free to die on the hill once again.


      Ah yes, the "injure the other team's best player and Jimmy Butler has a chance" argument :lol:

      Also, this aged well :D
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      Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

      Post#612 » by Truebiscuit » Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:18 am

      Susan wrote:
      Truebiscuit wrote:I've said it a million times, so this will make one million and one: You will NEVER win an NBA title with Jimmy Butler as your best player.

      Never.


      lol, and you've got a Mitchell Trubisky username. Maybe sit this one out.


      Golly, Susan, you've got me there! Maybe change your username to Karen next time :wink:

      You realize that every single team Jimmy Butler has been on, sans Miami, has either traded him away or let him walk, right?

      Are you in love with him or something? It's been 3 years, move on already.
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      Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

      Post#613 » by Ice Man » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:20 pm

      Now we know Skip Bayless's user name.
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      Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

      Post#614 » by weneeda2guard » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:58 pm

      Jimmy butler was determined to be at best a all star who ceiling was 2nd rd appearances before he was traded.

      So ok he didn't win a title this year. Jimmy took a young heat team with really no 2nd star just pretty good role players past 3 really good teams in the east as a 5th seed. Outside of the pacers series the heat were huge underdogs vs the bucks and Boston with stars no one would ever put Jimmy above a 2x mvp in giannis and a loaded celtics team. Then somehow he got 2 games out of a finals facing 2 of the top 5 players in the league in lebron and Davis and this was without the teams leading scorer and the bam being hobbled. Jimmy gave us a game where he literally outplayed lebron James in every statistical category. That mountain was just Ultimately too high to climb by himself. But if he has any other star down there in Miami with him they probably take out the lakers this past week.

      So with that said, I'm not selling Jimmy short simply because I don't want to look back in hindsight and not regret the decision that was made. It was a very bad decision and we witnessed why. Ok he didn't win it all but I know i would have rather been a bulls team in the finals losing then where we are now. But the fools who blew this are not here anymore. I think AK and eversly would have made a great attempt in building a team around Jimmy. I think Donavan would have coached him better. So our future is bright and its not this administrations fault of where we are at. Those guys are gone.
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      Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

      Post#615 » by Ugly Duckling » Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:55 pm

      PhilLeotardo wrote:In response to the deleted thread: Serious question?

      If LaVine doesn’t blow up into at the very least a Lillard-level player, the trade will go down as the worst trade in the NBA over the past decade, and undoubtedly the worst trade in Bulls history (which is really saying something). Dunn is nothing, and I don’t see Markkanen ever blossoming into a star winning player, too slow/lumbering & bad defense

      It is going to take the Bulls a long, long time to eclipse that trade. There was simply no excuse for it. “We can’t do our jobs properly, and we’d rather be surrounded by our frat boy buddies/people we’re comfortable with than win. So we’re going to trade you”. That is the definition of toxic unprofessionalism, in any workplace

      Fun fact I just returned home from Nairobi/surrounding suburbs in Kenya for my job, and saw many a #21 Bulls jersey. No heat jerseys


      Wow, that really puts it into perspective
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      Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

      Post#616 » by dice » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:51 am

      Ugly Duckling wrote:
      PhilLeotardo wrote:In response to the deleted thread: Serious question?

      If LaVine doesn’t blow up into at the very least a Lillard-level player, the trade will go down as the worst trade in the NBA over the past decade, and undoubtedly the worst trade in Bulls history (which is really saying something). Dunn is nothing, and I don’t see Markkanen ever blossoming into a star winning player, too slow/lumbering & bad defense

      It is going to take the Bulls a long, long time to eclipse that trade. There was simply no excuse for it. “We can’t do our jobs properly, and we’d rather be surrounded by our frat boy buddies/people we’re comfortable with than win. So we’re going to trade you”. That is the definition of toxic unprofessionalism, in any workplace

      Fun fact I just returned home from Nairobi/surrounding suburbs in Kenya for my job, and saw many a #21 Bulls jersey. No heat jerseys


      Wow, that really puts it into perspective

      i can't even figure out what it means. first of all, there's absolutely no way that gar forman ever would have been accepted into a frat that john paxson would have been in. and the trade was made because the FO was unsatisfied with the perceived level of winning that jimmy would have led us to. that calculation was obviously off, but it certainly had nothing to do with not wanting to win
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      Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

      Post#617 » by dice » Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:00 am

      Truebiscuit wrote:
      Susan wrote:
      Truebiscuit wrote:I've said it a million times, so this will make one million and one: You will NEVER win an NBA title with Jimmy Butler as your best player.

      Never.


      lol, and you've got a Mitchell Trubisky username. Maybe sit this one out.

      You realize that every single team Jimmy Butler has been on, sans Miami, has either traded him away or let him walk, right?

      the sixers offered him a max contract. he left them in the lurch. he demanded out of minny. and if you don't think the bulls made a mistake at this point...

      i'd say your perspective is out of left field, but i suspect you're merely trolling

      jimmy butler just came within striking distance of leading a team whose second best player was bam adebayo to an nba championship. and adebayo got hurt. let that sink in
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      Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

      Post#618 » by HomoSapien » Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:07 am

      dice wrote:
      Truebiscuit wrote:
      Susan wrote:
      lol, and you've got a Mitchell Trubisky username. Maybe sit this one out.

      You realize that every single team Jimmy Butler has been on, sans Miami, has either traded him away or let him walk, right?

      the sixers offered him a max contract. he left them in the lurch. he demanded out of minny. and if you don't think the bulls made a mistake at this point...

      i'd say your perspective is out of left field, but i suspect you're merely trolling

      jimmy butler just came within striking distance of leading a team whose second best player was bam adebayo to an nba championship. and adebayo got hurt. let that sink in


      Also, every team he's left has gotten worse.
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      Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

      Post#619 » by Leslie Forman » Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:13 am

      PhilLeotardo wrote:
      If LaVine doesn’t blow up into at the very least a Lillard-level player, the trade will go down as the worst trade in the NBA over the past decade

      Nah. This is impossible, because the Harden trade happened in the same decade.

      It was a terrible trade, one of the worst, but that one will always take the cake.
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      Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

      Post#620 » by Ugly Duckling » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:48 am

      dice wrote:
      Ugly Duckling wrote:
      PhilLeotardo wrote:In response to the deleted thread: Serious question?

      If LaVine doesn’t blow up into at the very least a Lillard-level player, the trade will go down as the worst trade in the NBA over the past decade, and undoubtedly the worst trade in Bulls history (which is really saying something). Dunn is nothing, and I don’t see Markkanen ever blossoming into a star winning player, too slow/lumbering & bad defense

      It is going to take the Bulls a long, long time to eclipse that trade. There was simply no excuse for it. “We can’t do our jobs properly, and we’d rather be surrounded by our frat boy buddies/people we’re comfortable with than win. So we’re going to trade you”. That is the definition of toxic unprofessionalism, in any workplace

      Fun fact I just returned home from Nairobi/surrounding suburbs in Kenya for my job, and saw many a #21 Bulls jersey. No heat jerseys


      Wow, that really puts it into perspective

      i can't even figure out what it means. first of all, there's absolutely no way that gar forman ever would have been accepted into a frat that john paxson would have been in. and the trade was made because the FO was unsatisfied with the perceived level of winning that jimmy would have led us to. that calculation was obviously off, but it certainly had nothing to do with not wanting to win


      Haha you're prob right, but he was partly joking and there is an undercurrent of truth to the causal disregard of what seemed apparent to many of us at the time
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