dice wrote: TeamMan wrote:
dice wrote:not wanting to pay him had nothing to do with profit. it was all about his ability to earn a supermax payout from age 30-34. because if he couldn't (and nobody should have expected him to), it would hamper the ability to build a contender
they knew they were going to miss the playoffs for at least a year after trading jimmy. the jimmy trade SHOULD have put an end to the nonsense about JR only being interested in playoff revenue. because the organization clearly wasn't satisfied with jimmy butler leading them to a low playoff seed year in and year out and they didn't think that they could build a genuine perennial contender around him
sure. but if his game falls off over the next few seasons, they'll be able to justify their actions once again (to themselves, anyway). particularly if the bulls pass the heat at some point during that period of time
Will try to respond to all of your points without breaking your post into pieces...
After the Bulls missed the playoffs (following trading JB) there was a press release that came out saying that JR was shocked at how much revenue that it cost the team (even though he'd been warned) and his only goal was to get back to the playoffs again.
So, it appeared, that in his evaluation, making it to the playoffs (even if it was only the 1st round) would have justified paying JB. The Bulls had been doing it (off and on) for most of the years since the end of the dynasty, and JR appeared to be completely happy with it (the profit).
Now, in the aftermath of all of the firings, it also appears that Gar/Pax were indeed given that ultimatum that so many people refused to believe. So, it was not the "organization's decision", it was a Gar/Pax decision that cost them their jobs. And JR had been talked into it (missing the playoffs), but afterward felt that he'd been mislead on the revenue/profit loss that was going to happen.
So, IMO JR looked at what happened when JB got to the T-Wolves, and thought "They are getting the revenue that I could have had if we'd kept him and went to the playoffs another year".
all "playoff revenue" is not equal. squeaking into the playoffs and getting the revenue from 2-3 home playoff games is wildly different from the revenue that comes from a deep run. and the deep run has additional financial benefits that go beyond ticket sales (nobody buys a 'bulls 2021 playoff qualifier' t-shirt, for example). i find it hard to believe that jerry reinsdorf, whose team won six damn championships and sold out games for many YEARS after it despite fielding many garbage teams, doesn't know the difference
you make it sound like duplicating the heat culture is easy. it isn't.
As far as rebuilding around JB, what the Heat did (in terms of rebuilding) was easily achievable by most of the teams in the NBA (including the Bulls).
The difference was that the Heat had Riley and Spoelstra.
So, JR made (the correct ) decision that Gar/Pax had to go
neither is hitting on all the personnel moves that the heat did. ironically, john paxson was one of the few that has accomplished something similar. early in his executive career he fielded a team that was missing only a guy like jimmy butler. and then he drafted jimmy butler!
The truth is, they got lucky with both Rose and JB, because their talent evaluation skills had nothing to do with picking those two players. JB was simply the best player available at the end of the 1st round, after virtually every other team in the league had already passed on him.
this is mostly false. first of all, derrick was not a slam dunk pick. some were advocating for beasley
. secondly, derrick ended up costing the bulls wins in the long-term because of his injury and huge contract. at the end of the day, derrick gave us a lot of hope, but really only delivered 2 outstanding regular seasons. then he blew a huge 5 year hole in our cap space
just as jimmy was coming into his own. terrible luck. finally, jimmy was widely projected in the 2nd round. go back and look at the draft thread
- absolutely nobody here was pining for jimmy butler. nothing like "well, guess we've gotta take jimmy since he's fallen to #30"
But once they had him, they didn't appreciate their luck and thought, "We're so smart that we can just do it again"
they surely didn't think this after so many misses AFTER drafting jimmy. it was a clear case of them not thinking that he could earn a supermax contract from age 30-34, so might as well trade him rather than "lose him for nothing"
So, they deserved to be fired.
they should never have been permitted to make the decision to trade jimmy and rebuild in the first place...because of the lack of success for years after drafting jimmy. they should have been let go
and someone else could have made the decision on how to proceed
Responding to highlighted items...
: No matter what we believe, it was released to the press that JR was not happy with the loss of revenue. That he fired Gar/Pax is the proof.
- Heat culture
: It's not easy, but Riley and Spoelstra make it look easy. However, I have no window into how their ownership backs them, but most likely it is the 3rd element that makes the Heat culture work.
- Rose pick
: I looked at some highlight clips of Beasley, and even I could see, that he was not even in the same league as Rose. But that doesn't change the fact that it was luck that they got the #1 pick to begin with
Plus Rose's one year in college was close to setting the all time number of wins for a team in a season. Picking him was, in fact, a slam dunk. (Plus I remember the look on Riley's face when he was forced to pick Beasley. Never saw someone so depressed to have to make the 2nd pick in a draft.)
- Rose cap space
: Whatever was going on with revenue, it appeared to keep JR happy. It was after Rose and JB were gone that he got unhappy, very unhappy.
- JB draft pick
: I remember very well what occurred during that draft. JB was an amazing stat-stuffer across multiple categories. And at the time I was thinking that it was sad that the Bulls wouldn't be able to get him in the 2nd round. The main reason that he wasn't projected for the 1st round was because of his age. I was actually surprised that the Bulls pick him at #30. However, there was no doubt in my mind that he was the PBA.
- Letting go of Gar/Pax
: To me this is another way of saying fired. So it appears that we agree on this one thing, except that you think they should have been fired even earlier