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dice wrote:

Ugly Duckling wrote:

dice wrote:how many players are superstars at age 34? because the bulls would have been paying butler like a superstar at age 34

there were plenty of people, myself included, who thought that jimmy COULD lead a team to the finals. but not a single person that i'm aware of predicted that it would happen

Well you could make the argument that he's outplaying LeBron rn, who's 35. Not saying Jimmy could have the same longevity as LeBron, but his game looks like it'll age well. Sometimes you have to overpay towards the end of a contract to win. If you think about it, it's like he'll be getting more than the super max for the yrs which he's in his prime and less when he's not, even though that's not how his salary is paid out. $40 million is an underpay for him rn the way he's playing. Also have to account for inflation, although with the pandemic, that'll prob be flattened

if you're planning to pay a guy like a superstar at age 34 but don't expect him to PLAY like one at that age, there has to be an upside earlier in the contract...like jimmy is providing right now. and again, nobody expected jimmy to be staring down lebron in the finals at any point

Ugly Duckling wrote:

dice wrote:

Ugly Duckling wrote:
Well you could make the argument that he's outplaying LeBron rn, who's 35. Not saying Jimmy could have the same longevity as LeBron, but his game looks like it'll age well. Sometimes you have to overpay towards the end of a contract to win. If you think about it, it's like he'll be getting more than the super max for the yrs which he's in his prime and less when he's not, even though that's not how his salary is paid out. $40 million is an underpay for him rn the way he's playing. Also have to account for inflation, although with the pandemic, that'll prob be flattened

if you're planning to pay a guy like a superstar at age 34 but don't expect him to PLAY like one at that age, there has to be an upside earlier in the contract...like jimmy is providing right now. and again, nobody expected jimmy to be staring down lebron in the finals at any point

Pat Riley did

dice wrote:

Ugly Duckling wrote:

dice wrote:if you're planning to pay a guy like a superstar at age 34 but don't expect him to PLAY like one at that age, there has to be an upside earlier in the contract...like jimmy is providing right now. and again, nobody expected jimmy to be staring down lebron in the finals at any point

Pat Riley did

seriously doubt it. if he did it seems to me he would have traded for him earlier

RedBulls23 wrote:

dice wrote:

Ugly Duckling wrote:
Pat Riley did

seriously doubt it. if he did it seems to me he would have traded for him earlier

Heat tried trading for Jimmy the year before when he was traded to the Sixers.

dice wrote:

TeamMan wrote:

dice wrote:not wanting to pay him had nothing to do with profit. it was all about his ability to earn a supermax payout from age 30-34. because if he couldn't (and nobody should have expected him to), it would hamper the ability to build a contender


they knew they were going to miss the playoffs for at least a year after trading jimmy. the jimmy trade SHOULD have put an end to the nonsense about JR only being interested in playoff revenue. because the organization clearly wasn't satisfied with jimmy butler leading them to a low playoff seed year in and year out and they didn't think that they could build a genuine perennial contender around him


sure. but if his game falls off over the next few seasons, they'll be able to justify their actions once again (to themselves, anyway). particularly if the bulls pass the heat at some point during that period of time

Will try to respond to all of your points without breaking your post into pieces...

After the Bulls missed the playoffs (following trading JB) there was a press release that came out saying that JR was shocked at how much revenue that it cost the team (even though he'd been warned) and his only goal was to get back to the playoffs again.

So, it appeared, that in his evaluation, making it to the playoffs (even if it was only the 1st round) would have justified paying JB. The Bulls had been doing it (off and on) for most of the years since the end of the dynasty, and JR appeared to be completely happy with it (the profit).

Now, in the aftermath of all of the firings, it also appears that Gar/Pax were indeed given that ultimatum that so many people refused to believe. So, it was not the "organization's decision", it was a Gar/Pax decision that cost them their jobs. And JR had been talked into it (missing the playoffs), but afterward felt that he'd been mislead on the revenue/profit loss that was going to happen.

So, IMO JR looked at what happened when JB got to the T-Wolves, and thought "They are getting the revenue that I could have had if we'd kept him and went to the playoffs another year".

all "playoff revenue" is not equal. squeaking into the playoffs and getting the revenue from 2-3 home playoff games is wildly different from the revenue that comes from a deep run. and the deep run has additional financial benefits that go beyond ticket sales (nobody buys a 'bulls 2021 playoff qualifier' t-shirt, for example). i find it hard to believe that jerry reinsdorf, whose team won six damn championships and sold out games for many YEARS after it despite fielding many garbage teams, doesn't know the difference

As far as rebuilding around JB, what the Heat did (in terms of rebuilding) was easily achievable by most of the teams in the NBA (including the Bulls).

The difference was that the Heat had Riley and Spoelstra.

So, JR made (the correct ) decision that Gar/Pax had to go

you make it sound like duplicating the heat culture is easy. it isn't. neither is hitting on all the personnel moves that the heat did. ironically, john paxson was one of the few that has accomplished something similar. early in his executive career he fielded a team that was missing only a guy like jimmy butler. and then he drafted jimmy butler!

The truth is, they got lucky with both Rose and JB, because their talent evaluation skills had nothing to do with picking those two players. JB was simply the best player available at the end of the 1st round, after virtually every other team in the league had already passed on him.

this is mostly false. first of all, derrick was not a slam dunk pick. some were advocating for beasley. secondly, derrick ended up costing the bulls wins in the long-term because of his injury and huge contract. at the end of the day, derrick gave us a lot of hope, but really only delivered 2 outstanding regular seasons. then he blew a huge 5 year hole in our cap space just as jimmy was coming into his own. terrible luck. finally, jimmy was widely projected in the 2nd round. go back and look at the draft thread - absolutely nobody here was pining for jimmy butler. nothing like "well, guess we've gotta take jimmy since he's fallen to #30"

But once they had him, they didn't appreciate their luck and thought, "We're so smart that we can just do it again"

they surely didn't think this after so many misses AFTER drafting jimmy. it was a clear case of them not thinking that he could earn a supermax contract from age 30-34, so might as well trade him rather than "lose him for nothing"

So, they deserved to be fired.

they should never have been permitted to make the decision to trade jimmy and rebuild in the first place...because of the lack of success for years after drafting jimmy. they should have been let go and someone else could have made the decision on how to proceed

TheBomb81 wrote:

I know you guys wish he was still on your team, huh? Props to the Heat for a wonderful season and hopefully Jimmy can win a championship in Miami.

PhilLeotardo wrote:

Am2626 wrote:

nomorezorro wrote:
we didn't lose the trade because the trade was so bad that we actually fired our untouchable gm

i guess that's one way of looking at it

The Bulls didn’t fire Paxson. He went to the Reinsdorf’s and told them he was no longer the best person for the job. He would still be the GM if he wanted to be.

And you know this how? No one knows what precisely went down besides the individuals that were present throughout the endless waking nightmare that was the past 4 years, and it’s inevitable conclusion. No one knows who said behind closed doors

Paxson got demoted. He’s friendly with ownership, so they allowed him to say he “stepped down” & bow out “gracefully”, but he didn’t step down. He essentially got fired from his previous position but gets to keep collecting a small paycheck, and his partner was fired altogether

You can bet there was a ton of infighting within the Bulls brass over the past 5 years, and probably several different warring collectives/camps (Michael vs Jerry/Jon, Gar vs Jon, etc who the hell knows), but ultimately, if we’re just going off of actual events that have taken place, it seems like Jerry gave PaxGar one final shot at building something worthwhile & proving themselves, and they blew it, which lead to Michael R going “see?? I told you, they have no idea what they’re doing, we need to burn it down & hire professionals, we are destroying this franchise & people aren’t coming to games anymore”

Michael seems to be running ownership duties completely now, and wasted no time in firing everyone & burning the entire thing to the ground. The FO wasn’t rebuilt from the ground up because “Pax decided to step down” lol. They were flirting with the point of no return

Ice Man wrote:

Truebiscuit wrote:I've said it a million times, so this will make one million and one: You will NEVER win an NBA title with Jimmy Butler as your best player.

Never.

And you were *that close* to being wrong all one million times, because all it took was LBJ to tear his plantar rather than Goran and the Heat would have won the FInals.

But feel free to die on the hill once again.

Susan wrote:

Truebiscuit wrote:I've said it a million times, so this will make one million and one: You will NEVER win an NBA title with Jimmy Butler as your best player.

Never.

lol, and you've got a Mitchell Trubisky username. Maybe sit this one out.

PhilLeotardo wrote:In response to the deleted thread: Serious question?

If LaVine doesn’t blow up into at the very least a Lillard-level player, the trade will go down as the worst trade in the NBA over the past decade, and undoubtedly the worst trade in Bulls history (which is really saying something). Dunn is nothing, and I don’t see Markkanen ever blossoming into a star winning player, too slow/lumbering & bad defense

It is going to take the Bulls a long, long time to eclipse that trade. There was simply no excuse for it. “We can’t do our jobs properly, and we’d rather be surrounded by our frat boy buddies/people we’re comfortable with than win. So we’re going to trade you”. That is the definition of toxic unprofessionalism, in any workplace

Fun fact I just returned home from Nairobi/surrounding suburbs in Kenya for my job, and saw many a #21 Bulls jersey. No heat jerseys

Ugly Duckling wrote:

PhilLeotardo wrote:In response to the deleted thread: Serious question?

If LaVine doesn’t blow up into at the very least a Lillard-level player, the trade will go down as the worst trade in the NBA over the past decade, and undoubtedly the worst trade in Bulls history (which is really saying something). Dunn is nothing, and I don’t see Markkanen ever blossoming into a star winning player, too slow/lumbering & bad defense

It is going to take the Bulls a long, long time to eclipse that trade. There was simply no excuse for it. “We can’t do our jobs properly, and we’d rather be surrounded by our frat boy buddies/people we’re comfortable with than win. So we’re going to trade you”. That is the definition of toxic unprofessionalism, in any workplace

Fun fact I just returned home from Nairobi/surrounding suburbs in Kenya for my job, and saw many a #21 Bulls jersey. No heat jerseys

Wow, that really puts it into perspective

Truebiscuit wrote:

Susan wrote:

Truebiscuit wrote:I've said it a million times, so this will make one million and one: You will NEVER win an NBA title with Jimmy Butler as your best player.

Never.

lol, and you've got a Mitchell Trubisky username. Maybe sit this one out.

You realize that every single team Jimmy Butler has been on, sans Miami, has either traded him away or let him walk, right?

dice wrote:

Truebiscuit wrote:

Susan wrote:
lol, and you've got a Mitchell Trubisky username. Maybe sit this one out.

You realize that every single team Jimmy Butler has been on, sans Miami, has either traded him away or let him walk, right?

the sixers offered him a max contract. he left them in the lurch. he demanded out of minny. and if you don't think the bulls made a mistake at this point...

i'd say your perspective is out of left field, but i suspect you're merely trolling

jimmy butler just came within striking distance of leading a team whose second best player was bam adebayo to an nba championship. and adebayo got hurt. let that sink in

PhilLeotardo wrote:
If LaVine doesn’t blow up into at the very least a Lillard-level player, the trade will go down as the worst trade in the NBA over the past decade

dice wrote:

Ugly Duckling wrote:

PhilLeotardo wrote:In response to the deleted thread: Serious question?

If LaVine doesn’t blow up into at the very least a Lillard-level player, the trade will go down as the worst trade in the NBA over the past decade, and undoubtedly the worst trade in Bulls history (which is really saying something). Dunn is nothing, and I don’t see Markkanen ever blossoming into a star winning player, too slow/lumbering & bad defense

It is going to take the Bulls a long, long time to eclipse that trade. There was simply no excuse for it. “We can’t do our jobs properly, and we’d rather be surrounded by our frat boy buddies/people we’re comfortable with than win. So we’re going to trade you”. That is the definition of toxic unprofessionalism, in any workplace

Fun fact I just returned home from Nairobi/surrounding suburbs in Kenya for my job, and saw many a #21 Bulls jersey. No heat jerseys

Wow, that really puts it into perspective

i can't even figure out what it means. first of all, there's absolutely no way that gar forman ever would have been accepted into a frat that john paxson would have been in. and the trade was made because the FO was unsatisfied with the perceived level of winning that jimmy would have led us to. that calculation was obviously off, but it certainly had nothing to do with not wanting to win