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How Good is Jimmy Butler?

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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#621 » by Michael Jackson » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:54 am

Leslie Forman wrote:
PhilLeotardo wrote:
If LaVine doesn’t blow up into at the very least a Lillard-level player, the trade will go down as the worst trade in the NBA over the past decade

Nah. This is impossible, because the Harden trade happened in the same decade.

It was a terrible trade, one of the worst, but that one will always take the cake.



Jeremy Lamb. That’s not a bad haul.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#622 » by PhilLeotardo » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:53 pm

Leslie Forman wrote:
PhilLeotardo wrote:
If LaVine doesn’t blow up into at the very least a Lillard-level player, the trade will go down as the worst trade in the NBA over the past decade

Nah. This is impossible, because the Harden trade happened in the same decade.

It was a terrible trade, one of the worst, but that one will always take the cake.


Yeah, i guess I must’ve missed the part where Harden lead a rag tag crew of mercenaries to the NBA Finals

I also must’ve missed the part where the Thunder fell off a cliff after Harden left
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#623 » by PhilLeotardo » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:01 pm

dice wrote:
Ugly Duckling wrote:
PhilLeotardo wrote:In response to the deleted thread: Serious question?

If LaVine doesn’t blow up into at the very least a Lillard-level player, the trade will go down as the worst trade in the NBA over the past decade, and undoubtedly the worst trade in Bulls history (which is really saying something). Dunn is nothing, and I don’t see Markkanen ever blossoming into a star winning player, too slow/lumbering & bad defense

It is going to take the Bulls a long, long time to eclipse that trade. There was simply no excuse for it. “We can’t do our jobs properly, and we’d rather be surrounded by our frat boy buddies/people we’re comfortable with than win. So we’re going to trade you”. That is the definition of toxic unprofessionalism, in any workplace

Fun fact I just returned home from Nairobi/surrounding suburbs in Kenya for my job, and saw many a #21 Bulls jersey. No heat jerseys


Wow, that really puts it into perspective

i can't even figure out what it means. first of all, there's absolutely no way that gar forman ever would have been accepted into a frat that john paxson would have been in. and the trade was made because the FO was unsatisfied with the perceived level of winning that jimmy would have led us to. that calculation was obviously off, but it certainly had nothing to do with not wanting to win


There is zero, and I mean zero indication that the Bulls have been trying to win basketball games over the past three seasons, let alone more games than they would’ve won with Butler at the helm

Butler was traded because they sided with Hoiberg/Forman, and he wanted both of them gone. Typical croneyism nonsense

Paxson & Forman (and Krause, for that matter) proved on multiple occasions that they’d rather have their friends/people who were subservient to them on the payroll, rather than put together the best basketball team possible
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#624 » by PhilLeotardo » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:11 pm

Am2626 wrote:
PhilLeotardo wrote:
Am2626 wrote:
The Bulls didn’t fire Paxson. He went to the Reinsdorf’s and told them he was no longer the best person for the job. He would still be the GM if he wanted to be.


And you know this how? No one knows what precisely went down besides the individuals that were present throughout the endless waking nightmare that was the past 4 years, and it’s inevitable conclusion. No one knows who said behind closed doors

Paxson got demoted. He’s friendly with ownership, so they allowed him to say he “stepped down” & bow out “gracefully”, but he didn’t step down. He essentially got fired from his previous position but gets to keep collecting a small paycheck, and his partner was fired altogether

You can bet there was a ton of infighting within the Bulls brass over the past 5 years, and probably several different warring collectives/camps (Michael vs Jerry/Jon, Gar vs Jon, etc who the hell knows), but ultimately, if we’re just going off of actual events that have taken place, it seems like Jerry gave PaxGar one final shot at building something worthwhile & proving themselves, and they blew it, which lead to Michael R going “see?? I told you, they have no idea what they’re doing, we need to burn it down & hire professionals, we are destroying this franchise & people aren’t coming to games anymore”

Michael seems to be running ownership duties completely now, and wasted no time in firing everyone & burning the entire thing to the ground. The FO wasn’t rebuilt from the ground up because “Pax decided to step down” lol. They were flirting with the point of no return


In Michael Reinsdorf’s press conference introducing AK he stated specifically that Paxson came to him and Jerry and told them that he believed he was no longer the best person to lead this group. Paxson couldn’t handle the negativity that he was facing from fans and the media.


Right, so, I addressed all of that in my comment. Paxson “wanting to step down” had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Bulls firing everyone from the GM to the popcorn guy, and spending a gajillion dollars on rebuilding their entire front office/coaching staff/training staff/etc etc. Paxson sucking at his job, being demoted, and having all of his friends fired is what happened. He’s a friend of the Reinsdorf family, so naturally they aren’t going to come out & say “Jon is an idiot & he’s being demoted (finally)”. They let him bow out gracefully

The Bulls were losing revenue at an unprecedented rate, which was Paxson’s fault, and which is why he was demoted, Forman was fired, and the entire operation is being rebuilt from the ground up. Lol @ any of this having anything to do with Jon Paxsons feelings.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#625 » by Truebiscuit » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:56 pm

dice wrote:
Truebiscuit wrote:
Susan wrote:
lol, and you've got a Mitchell Trubisky username. Maybe sit this one out.

You realize that every single team Jimmy Butler has been on, sans Miami, has either traded him away or let him walk, right?

the sixers offered him a max contract. he left them in the lurch. he demanded out of minny. and if you don't think the bulls made a mistake at this point...

i'd say your perspective is out of left field, but i suspect you're merely trolling

jimmy butler just came within striking distance of leading a team whose second best player was bam adebayo to an nba championship. and adebayo got hurt. let that sink in


He was not wanted, Jimmy said as much on a podcast with JJ Redick. The issue dealt with management, and these are Jimmy's words: "Can you control him?"
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#626 » by Truebiscuit » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:56 pm

HomoSapien wrote:
dice wrote:
Truebiscuit wrote:You realize that every single team Jimmy Butler has been on, sans Miami, has either traded him away or let him walk, right?

the sixers offered him a max contract. he left them in the lurch. he demanded out of minny. and if you don't think the bulls made a mistake at this point...

i'd say your perspective is out of left field, but i suspect you're merely trolling

jimmy butler just came within striking distance of leading a team whose second best player was bam adebayo to an nba championship. and adebayo got hurt. let that sink in


Also, every team he's left has gotten worse.


This is valid, but it does not detract from my original statement: you will never win an NBA title with Jimmy Butler as your best player.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#627 » by Susan » Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:06 pm

Truebiscuit wrote:
Susan wrote:
Truebiscuit wrote:I've said it a million times, so this will make one million and one: You will NEVER win an NBA title with Jimmy Butler as your best player.

Never.


lol, and you've got a Mitchell Trubisky username. Maybe sit this one out.


Golly, Susan, you've got me there! Maybe change your username to Karen next time :wink:

You realize that every single team Jimmy Butler has been on, sans Miami, has either traded him away or let him walk, right?

Are you in love with him or something? It's been 3 years, move on already.


And every single team he's left has gotten WAY worse?

Bulls were good when he was there, trash after he left, Minny was trash before he got there, good when he was there, trash after he left. Philly was one crazy buzzer beater away from the ECF and potentially going to he finals with him, SWEPT without him.

Just because there's a lot of dumbass teams doesn't make your stance any smarter.

Miami's culture is better now that Jimmy's there leading them. Great orgs know how to have great players, losing orgs get rid of em.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#628 » by troza » Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:44 pm

Susan wrote:
Bulls were good when he was there, trash after he left


I agree with your point but just to clarify that we weren't good before he left. We were better but not good. Since Thibs left we have never been good.

This is something that we seem to forget is how hopeless we were that it was hard to believe that we would be able to build a team around Butler in those years.

I would say... change the management at that time after sending Rose and Noah away and failed to do anything out of it. We had a team of veterans that didn't complement Jimmy very well. I would say Wade was ok, Rondo was ok... both was not ok.

A (bad) coach hired because of modern basketball and a roster that didn't fit any of that and didn't had any vision for the future... at the end of that season it was the right time to change things here.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#629 » by Ice Man » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:49 pm

troza wrote:This is something that we seem to forget is how hopeless we were that it was hard to believe that we would be able to build a team around Butler in those years.


I will never understand the idea that a mediocre team will get better by getting rid of its best player. I can't think of when that strategy ever worked.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#630 » by Mech Engineer » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:05 pm

troza wrote:
Susan wrote:
Bulls were good when he was there, trash after he left


I agree with your point but just to clarify that we weren't good before he left. We were better but not good. Since Thibs left we have never been good.

This is something that we seem to forget is how hopeless we were that it was hard to believe that we would be able to build a team around Butler in those years.

I would say... change the management at that time after sending Rose and Noah away and failed to do anything out of it. We had a team of veterans that didn't complement Jimmy very well. I would say Wade was ok, Rondo was ok... both was not ok.

A (bad) coach hired because of modern basketball and a roster that didn't fit any of that and didn't had any vision for the future... at the end of that season it was the right time to change things here.


The Bulls did not have big money contracts and had all their draft picks. They could have recovered even after the 3 alphas season. It was just pure arrogance that they can find a better star than Jimmy easily and attract better stars in a couple of years.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#631 » by Truebiscuit » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:22 pm

Susan wrote:
Truebiscuit wrote:
Susan wrote:
lol, and you've got a Mitchell Trubisky username. Maybe sit this one out.


Golly, Susan, you've got me there! Maybe change your username to Karen next time :wink:

You realize that every single team Jimmy Butler has been on, sans Miami, has either traded him away or let him walk, right?

Are you in love with him or something? It's been 3 years, move on already.


And every single team he's left has gotten WAY worse?

Bulls were good when he was there, trash after he left, Minny was trash before he got there, good when he was there, trash after he left. Philly was one crazy buzzer beater away from the ECF and potentially going to he finals with him, SWEPT without him.

Just because there's a lot of dumbass teams doesn't make your stance any smarter.

Miami's culture is better now that Jimmy's there leading them. Great orgs know how to have great players, losing orgs get rid of em.


Teams getting WAY worse has nothing to do with it: NOBODY wanted him back. Miami, IMO, is the first team that might re-sign him when he's a UFA in 2023. Good for them, it only took Jimmy turning 30 and being on his 4th different team in 4 years.

Still, my point remains: you will never win an NBA championship with Jimmy Butler as your best player. You can hoot and holler about teams being trash before/after Jimmy was there, or crazy buzzer beaters, none of it pertains to my stance.

I'm glad you love him as much as you do, my good God.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#632 » by Truebiscuit » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:24 pm

Ice Man wrote:
troza wrote:This is something that we seem to forget is how hopeless we were that it was hard to believe that we would be able to build a team around Butler in those years.


I will never understand the idea that a mediocre team will get better by getting rid of its best player. I can't think of when that strategy ever worked.


When you know that player isn't enough to win you a title as your best player. It's pretty simple/straight-forward.

I'm really in awe with some of this fan-base and their obsession with this player. He's been gone 3 years, let it go!
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#633 » by HomoSapien » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:44 pm

Truebiscuit wrote:
Ice Man wrote:
troza wrote:This is something that we seem to forget is how hopeless we were that it was hard to believe that we would be able to build a team around Butler in those years.


I will never understand the idea that a mediocre team will get better by getting rid of its best player. I can't think of when that strategy ever worked.


When you know that player isn't enough to win you a title as your best player. It's pretty simple/straight-forward.

I'm really in awe with some of this fan-base and their obsession with this player. He's been gone 3 years, let it go![/quote

If a guy is good enough to get you to the finals (or even the conference finals), then they're worth trying to build a team around. There's so much luck involved in this game with injuries and matchups that you just want to hang around and have a "shot" at winning (unless you're in a striking position of getting a franchise player through a trade like we did). At the end of the day, Butler almost singlehandedly won two games in the NBA finals against one of the all-time greats, with all-time great performances. He did that with a hobbled Bam, no Dragic, and a seriously diminished Kendrick Nunn who was not over his Covid symptoms (something that doesn't get discussed enough)

No one is winning a title with Jae Crowder, Olynyk, Robinson, a rookie Herro, and an old-man Igoudala as your main supporting cast.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#634 » by Truebiscuit » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:37 pm

HomoSapien wrote:
Truebiscuit wrote:
Ice Man wrote:
I will never understand the idea that a mediocre team will get better by getting rid of its best player. I can't think of when that strategy ever worked.


When you know that player isn't enough to win you a title as your best player. It's pretty simple/straight-forward.

I'm really in awe with some of this fan-base and their obsession with this player. He's been gone 3 years, let it go![/quote

If a guy is good enough to get you to the finals (or even the conference finals), then they're worth trying to build a team around. There's so much luck involved in this game with injuries and matchups that you just want to hang around and have a "shot" at winning (unless you're in a striking position of getting a franchise player through a trade like we did). At the end of the day, Butler almost singlehandedly won two games in the NBA finals against one of the all-time greats, with all-time great performances. He did that with a hobbled Bam, no Dragic, and a seriously diminished Kendrick Nunn who was not over his Covid symptoms (something that doesn't get discussed enough)

No one is winning a title with Jae Crowder, Olynyk, Robinson, a rookie Herro, and an old-man Igoudala as your main supporting cast.


Correct, and no one is winning a title with that roster + Jimmy Butler.

He "won us" 42 and 41 games as "the man" in Chicago his final two seasons here. He's not "good enough" to get you to the Finals by himself, clearly.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#635 » by chrispatrick » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:52 pm

Truebiscuit wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:
Truebiscuit wrote:


When you know that player isn't enough to win you a title as your best player. It's pretty simple/straight-forward.

I'm really in awe with some of this fan-base and their obsession with this player. He's been gone 3 years, let it go![/quote

If a guy is good enough to get you to the finals (or even the conference finals), then they're worth trying to build a team around. There's so much luck involved in this game with injuries and matchups that you just want to hang around and have a "shot" at winning (unless you're in a striking position of getting a franchise player through a trade like we did). At the end of the day, Butler almost singlehandedly won two games in the NBA finals against one of the all-time greats, with all-time great performances. He did that with a hobbled Bam, no Dragic, and a seriously diminished Kendrick Nunn who was not over his Covid symptoms (something that doesn't get discussed enough)

No one is winning a title with Jae Crowder, Olynyk, Robinson, a rookie Herro, and an old-man Igoudala as your main supporting cast.


Correct, and no one is winning a title with that roster + Jimmy Butler.

He "won us" 42 and 41 games as "the man" in Chicago his final two seasons here. He's not "good enough" to get you to the Finals by himself, clearly.


42 and 41 games were a miracle given the non-sensical supporting cast around him.

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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#636 » by Leslie Forman » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:28 am

PhilLeotardo wrote:Yeah, i guess I must’ve missed the part where Harden lead a rag tag crew of mercenaries to the NBA Finals

I also must’ve missed the part where the Thunder fell off a cliff after Harden left

I mean, if your criteria is just putting up a good fight in a loss, nothing is more impressive than taking the greatest team we've ever seen to 7 games.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#637 » by troza » Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:39 am

In a team game, against a very superior team and with injured teammates, Jimmy was able to show some fight and do incredible things.

If this is enough to win a title?

I remember there was a narrative that there was no way to win with the leading scorer of the league and that certain leading scorer needed to make the teammates better.

Is Butler that leading scorer? No. But is he an amazing player? Yes. A well constructed good team would have a chance. He impacts winning. He did better as a clear best player of Miami than lost in the mix in 76ers as far as team success goes. So... saying that it is impossible to win a title with Butler as the main player might be true but when we look at the 2004 Pistons, 2014 Spurs and even for the 1989/1990 Pistons (to name a few), we can argue that maybe Butler this year was better than any player in those teams. (We could even add the 2011 Mavs where Dirk was amazing through playoffs is a totally different player than Butler but maybe his finals weren't as impressive as Butler this year, the 2007 Spurs even if Tim Duncan at that time was still better than Butler or even the Warriors in 2015 with Curry performing under expectations... but these are all highly debatable)

Sure there aren't lots of examples but it is possible to win a title with a player like that as your main star. Hard, not likely but possible.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#638 » by Michael Jackson » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:51 pm

Truebiscuit wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:
dice wrote:the sixers offered him a max contract. he left them in the lurch. he demanded out of minny. and if you don't think the bulls made a mistake at this point...

i'd say your perspective is out of left field, but i suspect you're merely trolling

jimmy butler just came within striking distance of leading a team whose second best player was bam adebayo to an nba championship. and adebayo got hurt. let that sink in


Also, every team he's left has gotten worse.


This is valid, but it does not detract from my original statement: you will never win an NBA title with Jimmy Butler as your best player.


Say Kawhi’s last shot doesn’t go in and the Sixers win. Jimmy was the best player on the sixers and they very well could have won. Now he might not be projected as the best player anywhere but he ends up being that.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#639 » by PaKii94 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:02 pm

Truebiscuit wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:
dice wrote:the sixers offered him a max contract. he left them in the lurch. he demanded out of minny. and if you don't think the bulls made a mistake at this point...

i'd say your perspective is out of left field, but i suspect you're merely trolling

jimmy butler just came within striking distance of leading a team whose second best player was bam adebayo to an nba championship. and adebayo got hurt. let that sink in


Also, every team he's left has gotten worse.


This is valid, but it does not detract from my original statement: you will never win an NBA title with Jimmy Butler as your best player.


Lebron missed the playoffs last year. "No team will ever win a NBA title with Lebron James as your best player!"

^ that's how logical your argument is. Obviously teammate quality matters. It's stupid ass takes like this that Jimmy keeps on proving wrong.

"No way can Jimmy play SG he's an SF"
"Jimmy is out of his mind thinking he's worth more than $10mil in free agency"
"Stay in your lane Jimmy. You aren't a PG"
"Jimmy can never carry a team far into the playoffs"
"Jimmy is a bully. He forced his way out!! Twolves Pups aren't little b*tchs. Poor twolve pups"
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#640 » by Ice Man » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:45 pm

Truebiscuit wrote:When you know that player isn't enough to win you a title as your best player. It's pretty simple/straight-forward.


So then you win with him as your second or third best player. As Toronto did with Lowry. It's almost never a good decision to move a championship quality player in his prime. It certainly wasn't for the Bulls. The idea is to collect the two or three All Stars who are needed to win a title, not get rid of them.

As Bill James wrote when the Oakland As traded Ricky Henderson for five prospects in the mid Nineties, "a player like that is like a rare painting. When you get one, you don't give it up. You keep it and try to get more." Sure enough, Oakland got hosed on the deal.

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