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How Good is Jimmy Butler?

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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#641 » by Truebiscuit » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:15 pm

PaKii94 wrote:
Truebiscuit wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:
Also, every team he's left has gotten worse.


This is valid, but it does not detract from my original statement: you will never win an NBA title with Jimmy Butler as your best player.


Lebron missed the playoffs last year. "No team will ever win a NBA title with Lebron James as your best player!"

^ that's how logical your argument is. Obviously teammate quality matters. It's stupid ass takes like this that Jimmy keeps on proving wrong.


What? LeBron and missing the playoffs has nothing to do with my argument. Jimmy couldn't sniff LeBron's jock.

Jimmy didn't prove anyone wrong. I said you'll never win a title with him as your best player, and through his career I have been right. Let's see if he proves me wrong. Hope you're not holding your breath.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#642 » by Truebiscuit » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:16 pm

Ice Man wrote:
Truebiscuit wrote:When you know that player isn't enough to win you a title as your best player. It's pretty simple/straight-forward.


So then you win with him as your second or third best player. As Toronto did with Lowry. It's almost never a good decision to move a championship quality player in his prime. It certainly wasn't for the Bulls. The idea is to collect the two or three All Stars who are needed to win a title, not get rid of them.

As Bill James wrote when the Oakland As traded Ricky Henderson for five prospects in the mid Nineties, "a player like that is like a rare painting. When you get one, you don't give it up. You keep it and try to get more." Sure enough, Oakland got hosed on the deal.


I agree, but that never would have happened in Chicago. We were in basketball hell so we wouldn't get in the lottery or our odds at the #1 pick would have been extremely low. Even still, there is no guarantee a high draft pick would blossom and develop in time to make Jimmy Butler the 2nd best player.

Your argument makes sense -- and I sincerely thank you for being able to have a conversation without snark -- it just was never going to happen here.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#643 » by HomoSapien » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:52 pm

Truebiscuit wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
Truebiscuit wrote:
This is valid, but it does not detract from my original statement: you will never win an NBA title with Jimmy Butler as your best player.


Lebron missed the playoffs last year. "No team will ever win a NBA title with Lebron James as your best player!"

^ that's how logical your argument is. Obviously teammate quality matters. It's stupid ass takes like this that Jimmy keeps on proving wrong.


What? LeBron and missing the playoffs has nothing to do with my argument. Jimmy couldn't sniff LeBron's jock.

Jimmy didn't prove anyone wrong. I said you'll never win a title with him as your best player, and through his career I have been right. Let's see if he proves me wrong. Hope you're not holding your breath.


This really strikes me as a foolish time to be bragging. Butler exceeded every expectation this year, and showed what he could do with a team that's built around his strengths. The Bulls were unwilling to do that, and it's been our loss. An NBA team was never able to win with Karl Malone as its best player either, but that doesn't mean you don't try. All you can reasonably hope for is being in the mix of contending teams. Jimmy Butler would have done that for us, especially in a Lebron-less East.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#644 » by Mbrahv0528 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:40 am

HomoSapien wrote:
Truebiscuit wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
Lebron missed the playoffs last year. "No team will ever win a NBA title with Lebron James as your best player!"

^ that's how logical your argument is. Obviously teammate quality matters. It's stupid ass takes like this that Jimmy keeps on proving wrong.


What? LeBron and missing the playoffs has nothing to do with my argument. Jimmy couldn't sniff LeBron's jock.

Jimmy didn't prove anyone wrong. I said you'll never win a title with him as your best player, and through his career I have been right. Let's see if he proves me wrong. Hope you're not holding your breath.


This really strikes me as a foolish time to be bragging. Butler exceeded every expectation this year, and showed what he could do with a team that's built around his strengths. The Bulls were unwilling to do that, and it's been our loss. An NBA team was never able to win with Karl Malone as its best player either, but that doesn't mean you don't try. All you can reasonably hope for is being in the mix of contending teams. Jimmy Butler would have done that for us, especially in a Lebron-less East.
He also, quite literally, just went toe to toe with LeBron and compared favorably in the goddamn NBA Finals... but he couldn't sniff LeBron's jock. Lol ok. This dudes hot takes are hilariously bad.

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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#645 » by Truebiscuit » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:26 am

HomoSapien wrote:
Truebiscuit wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
Lebron missed the playoffs last year. "No team will ever win a NBA title with Lebron James as your best player!"

^ that's how logical your argument is. Obviously teammate quality matters. It's stupid ass takes like this that Jimmy keeps on proving wrong.


What? LeBron and missing the playoffs has nothing to do with my argument. Jimmy couldn't sniff LeBron's jock.

Jimmy didn't prove anyone wrong. I said you'll never win a title with him as your best player, and through his career I have been right. Let's see if he proves me wrong. Hope you're not holding your breath.


This really strikes me as a foolish time to be bragging. Butler exceeded every expectation this year, and showed what he could do with a team that's built around his strengths. The Bulls were unwilling to do that, and it's been our loss. An NBA team was never able to win with Karl Malone as its best player either, but that doesn't mean you don't try. All you can reasonably hope for is being in the mix of contending teams. Jimmy Butler would have done that for us, especially in a Lebron-less East.


Zero bragging, none. Just stating facts.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#646 » by Truebiscuit » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:26 am

Mbrahv0528 wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:
Truebiscuit wrote:
What? LeBron and missing the playoffs has nothing to do with my argument. Jimmy couldn't sniff LeBron's jock.

Jimmy didn't prove anyone wrong. I said you'll never win a title with him as your best player, and through his career I have been right. Let's see if he proves me wrong. Hope you're not holding your breath.


This really strikes me as a foolish time to be bragging. Butler exceeded every expectation this year, and showed what he could do with a team that's built around his strengths. The Bulls were unwilling to do that, and it's been our loss. An NBA team was never able to win with Karl Malone as its best player either, but that doesn't mean you don't try. All you can reasonably hope for is being in the mix of contending teams. Jimmy Butler would have done that for us, especially in a Lebron-less East.
He also, quite literally, just went toe to toe with LeBron and compared favorably in the goddamn NBA Finals... but he couldn't sniff LeBron's jock. Lol ok. This dudes hot takes are hilariously bad.

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Hold on... You put Jimmy Butler in the same stratosphere as LeBron James?

Really?
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#647 » by HomoSapien » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:52 am

Truebiscuit wrote:
Mbrahv0528 wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:
This really strikes me as a foolish time to be bragging. Butler exceeded every expectation this year, and showed what he could do with a team that's built around his strengths. The Bulls were unwilling to do that, and it's been our loss. An NBA team was never able to win with Karl Malone as its best player either, but that doesn't mean you don't try. All you can reasonably hope for is being in the mix of contending teams. Jimmy Butler would have done that for us, especially in a Lebron-less East.
He also, quite literally, just went toe to toe with LeBron and compared favorably in the goddamn NBA Finals... but he couldn't sniff LeBron's jock. Lol ok. This dudes hot takes are hilariously bad.

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Hold on... You put Jimmy Butler in the same stratosphere as LeBron James?

Really?


Nothing incorrect about saying he went toe to toe with LeBron in the finals.

Butler averaged 26 ppg, 9.8 apg, 8 rpg, and 2.2 spg in the finals. That's up there as one of the best individual performances I've seen in my 20+ years as a fan. Don't diminish that just because you're determined to stick to a conviction that you are unwilling to budge from.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#648 » by RedBulls23 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:09 am

The bar of only wanting guys that will 100% lead a team to a championship is comically high. Enjoy pretty much never rooting for a good team then.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#649 » by HomoSapien » Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:20 am

RedBulls23 wrote:The bar of only wanting guys that will 100% lead a team to a championship is comically high. Enjoy pretty much never rooting for a good team then.


It's beyond silly, because under those standards you'd be unwilling to build around guys like Ewing, Barkley, and Malone. Not everyone can win a championship. The best strategy is to build a team that can compete and hope for the best, and keep strengthening it every chance you can get.

Butler doesn't guarantee you a ring, but it wasn't out of the realm of possibility to pair him with someone like Kyrie Irving via free-agency, John Collins via the draft ... heck Paul George is available every few years and possibly could have been acquired via trade. Again, none of these guys guarantee anything, but it would have given us a shot.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#650 » by 2018C3 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:05 am

Truebiscuit wrote:
Ice Man wrote:
Truebiscuit wrote:When you know that player isn't enough to win you a title as your best player. It's pretty simple/straight-forward.


So then you win with him as your second or third best player. As Toronto did with Lowry. It's almost never a good decision to move a championship quality player in his prime. It certainly wasn't for the Bulls. The idea is to collect the two or three All Stars who are needed to win a title, not get rid of them.

As Bill James wrote when the Oakland As traded Ricky Henderson for five prospects in the mid Nineties, "a player like that is like a rare painting. When you get one, you don't give it up. You keep it and try to get more." Sure enough, Oakland got hosed on the deal.


I agree, but that never would have happened in Chicago. We were in basketball hell so we wouldn't get in the lottery or our odds at the #1 pick would have been extremely low. Even still, there is no guarantee a high draft pick would blossom and develop in time to make Jimmy Butler the 2nd best player.

Your argument makes sense -- and I sincerely thank you for being able to have a conversation without snark -- it just was never going to happen here.


We just watched Jimmy get a good sniff of his jock. If Miami had two Jimmy Butlers the outcome may have been different this time around. Miami captured great performances just at the right time.

In each of Lebrons championships:
In 2012 the Thunder won one game
in 2013 The Spurs won thee games
In 2016 the Warriors won thee games
In 2020 the Heat won two games

Jimmy and the heat did pretty good. Lebron is not a easy guy to get past.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#651 » by TheStig » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:20 am

Truebiscuit wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
Truebiscuit wrote:
This is valid, but it does not detract from my original statement: you will never win an NBA title with Jimmy Butler as your best player.


Lebron missed the playoffs last year. "No team will ever win a NBA title with Lebron James as your best player!"

^ that's how logical your argument is. Obviously teammate quality matters. It's stupid ass takes like this that Jimmy keeps on proving wrong.


What? LeBron and missing the playoffs has nothing to do with my argument. Jimmy couldn't sniff LeBron's jock.

Jimmy didn't prove anyone wrong. I said you'll never win a title with him as your best player, and through his career I have been right. Let's see if he proves me wrong. Hope you're not holding your breath.

That's kind of a ridiculous standard you've set. The only active guys in the league that have done that are bron, Kawhi, KD, and Steph. And KD had to join Steph to do it. Bron needed to have another top 5 or two other all stars.

I think Jimmy has been in and out of the top 10 over the last few years. And that's a damn good player you can build around.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#652 » by TheStig » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:22 am

HomoSapien wrote:
RedBulls23 wrote:The bar of only wanting guys that will 100% lead a team to a championship is comically high. Enjoy pretty much never rooting for a good team then.


It's beyond silly, because under those standards you'd be unwilling to build around guys like Ewing, Barkley, and Malone. Not everyone can win a championship. The best strategy is to build a team that can compete and hope for the best, and keep strengthening it every chance you can get.

Butler doesn't guarantee you a ring, but it wasn't out of the realm of possibility to pair him with someone like Kyrie Irving via free-agency, John Collins via the draft ... heck Paul George is available every few years and possibly could have been acquired via trade. Again, none of these guys guarantee anything, but it would have given us a shot.

It's exactly what the Mavs did, till they won a ring..... How many times did we hear Dirk is soft, Dirk isn't good in the playoffs, Dirk is a bad defender, Dirk takes too many jumpers, until Dirk started raining them and won the ring.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#653 » by HomoSapien » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:37 am

TheStig wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:
RedBulls23 wrote:The bar of only wanting guys that will 100% lead a team to a championship is comically high. Enjoy pretty much never rooting for a good team then.


It's beyond silly, because under those standards you'd be unwilling to build around guys like Ewing, Barkley, and Malone. Not everyone can win a championship. The best strategy is to build a team that can compete and hope for the best, and keep strengthening it every chance you can get.

Butler doesn't guarantee you a ring, but it wasn't out of the realm of possibility to pair him with someone like Kyrie Irving via free-agency, John Collins via the draft ... heck Paul George is available every few years and possibly could have been acquired via trade. Again, none of these guys guarantee anything, but it would have given us a shot.

It's exactly what the Mavs did, till they won a ring..... How many times did we hear Dirk is soft, Dirk isn't good in the playoffs, Dirk is a bad defender, Dirk takes too many jumpers, until Dirk started raining them and won the ring.


Perfect example. Dirk, while supremely talented, wasn't a guy who was viewed as an obvious future champion. Until he won, he was in a tier below Duncan, KG, Kobe, etc. That said, the Mavs knew he was good enough to keep them in the mix and they kept him and kept trying to surround him with the right mix of talent until it worked. And part of it was luck in the sense that they met the Heat before the Heat truly figured it out.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#654 » by troza » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:53 am

HomoSapien wrote:
Truebiscuit wrote:
Mbrahv0528 wrote:He also, quite literally, just went toe to toe with LeBron and compared favorably in the goddamn NBA Finals... but he couldn't sniff LeBron's jock. Lol ok. This dudes hot takes are hilariously bad.

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Hold on... You put Jimmy Butler in the same stratosphere as LeBron James?

Really?


Nothing incorrect about saying he went toe to toe with LeBron in the finals.

Butler averaged 26 ppg, 9.8 apg, 8 rpg, and 2.2 spg in the finals. That's up there as one of the best individual performances I've seen in my 20+ years as a fan. Don't diminish that just because you're determined to stick to a conviction that you are unwilling to budge from.


Just to add: he lead the finals in assists and steals, was second in points, blocks and third in rebounds. Lead the Heat at every one of those stats (while shooting 13 three pointers... this would bring a nice discussion about a certain someone from the past... we have other topics for it).

He also lead the finals in game score average although barely above Lebron James. At 43 minutes per game... He was doing a pretty good impression of Lebron James out there.

Now this is only about the finals. We are not talking about overall career.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#655 » by mtron32 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:00 pm

troza wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:
Truebiscuit wrote:
Hold on... You put Jimmy Butler in the same stratosphere as LeBron James?

Really?


Nothing incorrect about saying he went toe to toe with LeBron in the finals.

Butler averaged 26 ppg, 9.8 apg, 8 rpg, and 2.2 spg in the finals. That's up there as one of the best individual performances I've seen in my 20+ years as a fan. Don't diminish that just because you're determined to stick to a conviction that you are unwilling to budge from.


Just to add: he lead the finals in assists and steals, was second in points, blocks and third in rebounds. Lead the Heat at every one of those stats (while shooting 13 three pointers... this would bring a nice discussion about a certain someone from the past... we have other topics for it).

He also lead the finals in game score average although barely above Lebron James. At 43 minutes per game... He was doing a pretty good impression of Lebron James out there.

Now this is only about the finals. We are not talking about overall career.

He was dam good but I think about the two games he did his LBJ impression and the way he limped off the podium after and I think he needs to see how LBJ trains and apply the same to himself. That just about took it all out of him and he's no where near 35. His distribution abilities are pretty solid now as well.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#656 » by dice » Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:23 pm

Truebiscuit wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:
Truebiscuit wrote:
What? LeBron and missing the playoffs has nothing to do with my argument. Jimmy couldn't sniff LeBron's jock.

Jimmy didn't prove anyone wrong. I said you'll never win a title with him as your best player, and through his career I have been right. Let's see if he proves me wrong. Hope you're not holding your breath.


This really strikes me as a foolish time to be bragging. Butler exceeded every expectation this year, and showed what he could do with a team that's built around his strengths. The Bulls were unwilling to do that, and it's been our loss. An NBA team was never able to win with Karl Malone as its best player either, but that doesn't mean you don't try. All you can reasonably hope for is being in the mix of contending teams. Jimmy Butler would have done that for us, especially in a Lebron-less East.


Zero bragging, none. Just stating facts.

i would hope not. because, you see...NOT A SINGLE PERSON HAS EVER PREDICTED JIMMY WOULD LEAD A TEAM TO A CHAMPIONSHIP! he surprised EVERYONE by his latest extraordinary accomplishment

what's next, are you going to say "see, i TOLD you there wouldn't be a COVID-19 vaccine by the fall"?

how 'bout "ya see, lonzo ball still isn't all-nba! told ya!"

or maybe "christ didn't return in 2020, just like i said! when ya all gonna learn?!"

talk about a frontrunner

and to pre-empt your next lame talking point, "jimmy COULD lead a team to a championship" (which many people have said - even prior to this season) is NOT the same as "jimmy WILL lead a team to a championship" (which nobody has said). this season he effectively proved the former, leading a mediocre supporting cast to game 6 of the finals against an outstanding team

jimmy butler is capable of leading a team to a championship. that is now irrefutable reality. and anyone who ever claimed otherwise looks pretty damn silly right now. almost as silly as a person who would pick right now to pretend that a prediction about jimmy not leading a team to a title is somehow notable (i won't mention any names)
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#657 » by transplant » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:50 pm

Who would you rather have, Jimmy Butler or Kawhi Leonard? This was a stupid question before this season. I don't think it is now. Butler wasn't considered an elite player before this season, but he should be now. Very few players are able to make this leap. Kudos to him.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#658 » by dice » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:55 am

transplant wrote:Who would you rather have, Jimmy Butler or Kawhi Leonard? This was a stupid question before this season. I don't think it is now.

similarly, any prediction prior to this season (or prior to the heat taking down the bucks, really) that butler would never lead a team to a championship would have been completely and utterly boring. nobody could have reasonably disagreed with that. even now he's UNLIKELY to lead a team to a championship given his age and current supporting cast, so a prediction that he won't would hardly be bold, but now it's at least worthy of discussion

'will jimmy butler ever be the best player on a championship team?'

prior to the heat beating the bucks, the answer to such a poll question would have been very heavily tilted to 'no.' today it would still be 'no', just not so lopsided
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#659 » by 2018C3 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:10 am

mtron32 wrote:
troza wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:
Nothing incorrect about saying he went toe to toe with LeBron in the finals.

Butler averaged 26 ppg, 9.8 apg, 8 rpg, and 2.2 spg in the finals. That's up there as one of the best individual performances I've seen in my 20+ years as a fan. Don't diminish that just because you're determined to stick to a conviction that you are unwilling to budge from.


Just to add: he lead the finals in assists and steals, was second in points, blocks and third in rebounds. Lead the Heat at every one of those stats (while shooting 13 three pointers... this would bring a nice discussion about a certain someone from the past... we have other topics for it).

He also lead the finals in game score average although barely above Lebron James. At 43 minutes per game... He was doing a pretty good impression of Lebron James out there.

Now this is only about the finals. We are not talking about overall career.

He was dam good but I think about the two games he did his LBJ impression and the way he limped off the podium after and I think he needs to see how LBJ trains and apply the same to himself. That just about took it all out of him and he's no where near 35. His distribution abilities are pretty solid now as well.


Lol, Jimmy went from scrub to star, its silly to even suggest that he needs to train any diferently. Lebron walked on to the floor day one a star, just think how good he might be if he trained like Jimmy and made the same amount of improvement.

If anything, young people in this league should be looking at Jimmy, and ask themselves, "How Can I Do That". Whats his secret?

Not many young players are as gifted physically as Lebron, but there are plenty who have equal athleticism to Jimmy.

What was the turning point that made Jimmy break out? Was it a talk with Mark Wahlberg? Lol, something happened along the way. What was it?.........Thibs? / Deng???? Somewhere along the line a switch just flipped.
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Re: How Good is Jimmy Butler? 

Post#660 » by RedBulls23 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:54 am

transplant wrote:Who would you rather have, Jimmy Butler or Kawhi Leonard? This was a stupid question before this season. I don't think it is now. Butler wasn't considered an elite player before this season, but he should be now. Very few players are able to make this leap. Kudos to him.

Jimmy has always been this good though. He's just rarely been on teams that have as good as supporting cast as Kawhi. Philly was good, but he saw issues with them (which he was right about) and didn't why to stick around.

Will be interesting what Miami does going forward, because they could still add another star player to that roster. They have the assets and the flexibility to do it.
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