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2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

Moderators: HomoSapien, fleet, RedBulls23, Ice Man, AshyLarrysDiaper, Tommy Udo 6 , GimmeDat, dougthonus, Payt10, DASMACKDOWN, kulaz3000

Who do you want?

Ball
27
16%
Wiseman
29
18%
Deni
41
25%
Hayes
31
19%
Obi
4
2%
Vassell
14
9%
Okoro
4
2%
Haliburton
7
4%
Onyeka
3
2%
Other
4
2%
 
Total votes: 164

cjbulls
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1601 » by cjbulls » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:11 am

TheSuzerain wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
I think we can buy a 2nd and get him and AK historically takes gambles so we shall see.


Did I miss where we were short on undersized scoring talent? We used one of these guys in a year for about 5 straight years. It was helpful on a defensive minded team that needed scoring. Don’t see the relevance on this current roster.

We have very little offensive talent on the team. Our defense was actually league-average. It's our horrible offense that made us one of the worst teams in the league.

We need shots to flow to better/more efficient scorers. Howard would probably be the best scorer on the roster aside from Lavine.


Zero chance he’s ahead of Coby, especially when you factor in defensive liability. So he’s the third guard when they already have two highly advanced scoring guards. In other words, pointless
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1602 » by cjbulls » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:12 am

TheSuzerain wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
His motor issues go back to high school where he would not even try to push up and down the court. It's not really talked about much but people lacking motivation, work ethics, lack of motor are prospects you should stay away from.


Where are these motor questions? His ringer profile all but says the opposite and I’ve seen nothing questioning his motor. Link?

It comes from AAU where he was not nearly as dominant as he should have been.

He has looked more dominant and hard-working in his college games and the hoop summit, but the sample size is obviously crazy small (less than 100 minutes).


Link to any discussion of this?
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1603 » by TheSuzerain » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:21 am

cjbulls wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
Did I miss where we were short on undersized scoring talent? We used one of these guys in a year for about 5 straight years. It was helpful on a defensive minded team that needed scoring. Don’t see the relevance on this current roster.

We have very little offensive talent on the team. Our defense was actually league-average. It's our horrible offense that made us one of the worst teams in the league.

We need shots to flow to better/more efficient scorers. Howard would probably be the best scorer on the roster aside from Lavine.


Zero chance he’s ahead of Coby, especially when you factor in defensive liability. So he’s the third guard when they already have two highly advanced scoring guards. In other words, pointless

He's undoubtedly a better offensive player than Coby. Probably significantly better.

I'm not going to bat for Howard's defense. That won't be good. But can his offense/shot be elite enough to offset it and be a plus player? I think it's very reasonable. He's a role player in the truest sense of the word. That role is scoring/shooting.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1604 » by TheSuzerain » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:23 am

cjbulls wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
Where are these motor questions? His ringer profile all but says the opposite and I’ve seen nothing questioning his motor. Link?

It comes from AAU where he was not nearly as dominant as he should have been.

He has looked more dominant and hard-working in his college games and the hoop summit, but the sample size is obviously crazy small (less than 100 minutes).


Link to any discussion of this?

https://basketball.realgm.com/player/James-Wiseman/Summary/107990

Go to his AAU stats.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1605 » by cjbulls » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:27 am

TheSuzerain wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:It comes from AAU where he was not nearly as dominant as he should have been.

He has looked more dominant and hard-working in his college games and the hoop summit, but the sample size is obviously crazy small (less than 100 minutes).


Link to any discussion of this?

https://basketball.realgm.com/player/James-Wiseman/Summary/107990

Go to his AAU stats.


So you have ZERO evidence of his motor
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1606 » by cjbulls » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:29 am

TheSuzerain wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:We have very little offensive talent on the team. Our defense was actually league-average. It's our horrible offense that made us one of the worst teams in the league.

We need shots to flow to better/more efficient scorers. Howard would probably be the best scorer on the roster aside from Lavine.


Zero chance he’s ahead of Coby, especially when you factor in defensive liability. So he’s the third guard when they already have two highly advanced scoring guards. In other words, pointless

He's undoubtedly a better offensive player than Coby. Probably significantly better.

I'm not going to bat for Howard's defense. That won't be good. But can his offense/shot be elite enough to offset it and be a plus player? I think it's very reasonable. He's a role player in the truest sense of the word. That role is scoring/shooting.


How is it undoubtedly? Coby has proved himself on the NBA stage. Howard showed he can succeed in the Big East, lol. You can’t get so hooked on stats without context. He plays in a weak college conference with a green light. His height will be a detriment to his offense in the Nba
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1607 » by TheSuzerain » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:33 am

cjbulls wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
Link to any discussion of this?

https://basketball.realgm.com/player/James-Wiseman/Summary/107990

Go to his AAU stats.


So you have ZERO evidence of his motor

I just showed you evidence.

Guy averaged 6 boards per game in 20 minutes in AAU. That's like 11 rebounds per game per 36 minutes which is pitiful for a physically dominant top prospect at center.

He wasn't even the top rebounder on his own AAU team. Does that not signal a potential motor issue to you?
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1608 » by TheSuzerain » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:40 am

cjbulls wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
Zero chance he’s ahead of Coby, especially when you factor in defensive liability. So he’s the third guard when they already have two highly advanced scoring guards. In other words, pointless

He's undoubtedly a better offensive player than Coby. Probably significantly better.

I'm not going to bat for Howard's defense. That won't be good. But can his offense/shot be elite enough to offset it and be a plus player? I think it's very reasonable. He's a role player in the truest sense of the word. That role is scoring/shooting.


How is it undoubtedly? Coby has proved himself on the NBA stage. Howard showed he can succeed in the Big East, lol. You can’t get so hooked on stats without context. He plays in a weak college conference with a green light. His height will be a detriment to his offense in the Nba

Coby proved himself to be one of the worst scorers in the entire league. Along with most of the other rookies who were given minutes and shots.

I think you know what happens if we compare their college scoring stats.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1609 » by cjbulls » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:57 am

TheSuzerain wrote:
cjbulls wrote:


So you have ZERO evidence of his motor

I just showed you evidence.

Guy averaged 6 boards per game in 20 minutes in AAU. That's like 11 rebounds per game per 36 minutes which is pitiful for a physically dominant top prospect at center.

He wasn't even the top rebounder on his own AAU team. Does that not signal a potential motor issue to you?


No it doesn’t. He was the presumptive #1 pick pre-college and rebounded well in his college games. Find me a single scouting report that points to his motor.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1610 » by cjbulls » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:59 am

TheSuzerain wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:He's undoubtedly a better offensive player than Coby. Probably significantly better.

I'm not going to bat for Howard's defense. That won't be good. But can his offense/shot be elite enough to offset it and be a plus player? I think it's very reasonable. He's a role player in the truest sense of the word. That role is scoring/shooting.


How is it undoubtedly? Coby has proved himself on the NBA stage. Howard showed he can succeed in the Big East, lol. You can’t get so hooked on stats without context. He plays in a weak college conference with a green light. His height will be a detriment to his offense in the Nba

Coby proved himself to be one of the worst scorers in the entire league. Along with most of the other rookies who were given minutes and shots.

I think you know what happens if we compare their college scoring stats.


Ok keep pretending he’s one of the worst offensive players in the nba. I know this board is biased towards Bulls, but everyone can unanimously ageee your comment about Coby doesn’t hold water

If we were to just compare college stats, we’d come up with all sorts of fancy figures on who should be the best player in a draft class. We’d say MJ is average and Doug McDermott is a superstar.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1611 » by TheSuzerain » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:03 am

cjbulls wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
How is it undoubtedly? Coby has proved himself on the NBA stage. Howard showed he can succeed in the Big East, lol. You can’t get so hooked on stats without context. He plays in a weak college conference with a green light. His height will be a detriment to his offense in the Nba

Coby proved himself to be one of the worst scorers in the entire league. Along with most of the other rookies who were given minutes and shots.

I think you know what happens if we compare their college scoring stats.


Ok keep pretending he’s one of the worst offensive players in the nba. I know this board is biased towards Bulls, but everyone can unanimously ageee your comment about Coby doesn’t hold water

If we were to just compare college stats, we’d come up with all sorts of fancy figures on who should be the best player in a draft class. We’d say MJ is average and Doug McDermott is a superstar.

Go here: https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2020_adj_shooting.html

Sort descending by FG Add or TS Add.

Scroll to the bottom to find Coby.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1612 » by Chi town » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:16 am

Howard is Carsen Edwards 2.0.

Pass.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1613 » by cjbulls » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:16 am

TheSuzerain wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Coby proved himself to be one of the worst scorers in the entire league. Along with most of the other rookies who were given minutes and shots.

I think you know what happens if we compare their college scoring stats.


Ok keep pretending he’s one of the worst offensive players in the nba. I know this board is biased towards Bulls, but everyone can unanimously ageee your comment about Coby doesn’t hold water

If we were to just compare college stats, we’d come up with all sorts of fancy figures on who should be the best player in a draft class. We’d say MJ is average and Doug McDermott is a superstar.

Go here: https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2020_adj_shooting.html

Sort descending by FG Add or TS Add.

Scroll to the bottom to find Coby.


Ok you’re taking an nba rookie and using his early stats to justify what you know is a weak position. Find anyone on this board show agrees with you.

Anyone want to second tha Coby is one of the worst offensive players in the NBA? That the Bulls should draft Markus Howard because Coby is a bad offensive player and Howard is clearly better? anyone? Bueller?
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1614 » by cjbulls » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:19 am

TheSuzerain wrote:
cjbulls wrote:


So you have ZERO evidence of his motor

I just showed you evidence.

Guy averaged 6 boards per game in 20 minutes in AAU. That's like 11 rebounds per game per 36 minutes which is pitiful for a physically dominant top prospect at center.

He wasn't even the top rebounder on his own AAU team. Does that not signal a potential motor issue to you?


Btw I love how your argument is a 10 game, 20mpg sample size for AAU games that you never watched. And he was at 11rb/36 which proves to you no motor besides no one actually saying that. Wild.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1615 » by Chi town » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:20 am

cjbulls wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
Ok keep pretending he’s one of the worst offensive players in the nba. I know this board is biased towards Bulls, but everyone can unanimously ageee your comment about Coby doesn’t hold water

If we were to just compare college stats, we’d come up with all sorts of fancy figures on who should be the best player in a draft class. We’d say MJ is average and Doug McDermott is a superstar.

Go here: https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2020_adj_shooting.html

Sort descending by FG Add or TS Add.

Scroll to the bottom to find Coby.


Ok you’re taking an nba rookie and using his early stats to justify what you know is a weak position. Find anyone on this board show agrees with you.

Anyone want to second tha Coby is one of the worst offensive players in the NBA? That the Bulls should draft Markus Howard because Coby is a bad offensive player and Howard is clearly better? anyone? Bueller?


Suz is suzing. We all know this by now.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1616 » by Chi town » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:25 am

SfBull wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:https://deanondraft.com/2020/09/28/how-good-is-deni-avdija/

Deep analysis about Deni, I'm just curious to see if he'll slip like Michael Porter Jr in 2018 with more scouting data like that.


I like Dean. He was the first to say Luka was a Lebron like talent. I agreed with him fully.

He was way off on Lonzo. As was I. He’s had some major misses too. Still like the way he sees things.

He makes some good points w Deni. What it comes down to for Deni is he has to develop his shot to become an OPJ level player. If he will ever become anything more than that he has to be able to handle the ball and create. I think he will.

Deni is still my guy at 4. Hayes if Dubs take Deni.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1617 » by TheSuzerain » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:36 am

cjbulls wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
So you have ZERO evidence of his motor

I just showed you evidence.

Guy averaged 6 boards per game in 20 minutes in AAU. That's like 11 rebounds per game per 36 minutes which is pitiful for a physically dominant top prospect at center.

He wasn't even the top rebounder on his own AAU team. Does that not signal a potential motor issue to you?


Btw I love how your argument is a 10 game, 20mpg sample size for AAU games that you never watched. And he was at 11rb/36 which proves to you no motor besides no one actually saying that. Wild.

And your argument is seemingly based on 70 minutes of college games.

Did you really not google "James Wiseman Motor" before spouting off like this?

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/11/14/20965614/james-wiseman-draft-memphis-tigers-ineligible
https://www.nbadraft.net/players/james-wiseman/
http://backcourtviolation.com/player/james-wiseman
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2020-nba-draft-comparing-james-wiseman-and-onyeka-okongwu-the-top-big-man-prospects/
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2885662-addressing-the-biggest-questions-about-nba-draft-prospect-james-wiseman

I might get carpal tunnel before being able to copy/paste all the Wiseman scouting reports that mention questions about his motor.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1618 » by TheSuzerain » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:39 am

cjbulls wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
Ok keep pretending he’s one of the worst offensive players in the nba. I know this board is biased towards Bulls, but everyone can unanimously ageee your comment about Coby doesn’t hold water

If we were to just compare college stats, we’d come up with all sorts of fancy figures on who should be the best player in a draft class. We’d say MJ is average and Doug McDermott is a superstar.

Go here: https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2020_adj_shooting.html

Sort descending by FG Add or TS Add.

Scroll to the bottom to find Coby.


Ok you’re taking an nba rookie and using his early stats to justify what you know is a weak position. Find anyone on this board show agrees with you.

Anyone want to second tha Coby is one of the worst offensive players in the NBA? That the Bulls should draft Markus Howard because Coby is a bad offensive player and Howard is clearly better? anyone? Bueller?

I said he was one of the worst offensive players in the league last year and showed you a stat showing just that.

Crying about how he was a rookie is in fact not a counter-argument to my argument that he was bad. Sounds like you actually agree he was bad.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1619 » by cjbulls » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:53 am

TheSuzerain wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:I just showed you evidence.

Guy averaged 6 boards per game in 20 minutes in AAU. That's like 11 rebounds per game per 36 minutes which is pitiful for a physically dominant top prospect at center.

He wasn't even the top rebounder on his own AAU team. Does that not signal a potential motor issue to you?


Btw I love how your argument is a 10 game, 20mpg sample size for AAU games that you never watched. And he was at 11rb/36 which proves to you no motor besides no one actually saying that. Wild.

And your argument is seemingly based on 70 minutes of college games.

Did you really not google "James Wiseman Motor" before spouting off like this?

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/11/14/20965614/james-wiseman-draft-memphis-tigers-ineligible
https://www.nbadraft.net/players/james-wiseman/
http://backcourtviolation.com/player/james-wiseman
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2020-nba-draft-comparing-james-wiseman-and-onyeka-okongwu-the-top-big-man-prospects/
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2885662-addressing-the-biggest-questions-about-nba-draft-prospect-james-wiseman

I might get carpal tunnel before being able to copy/paste all the Wiseman scouting reports that mention questions about his motor.


This is what I was asking for! Thanks. I hadn’t seen much about his motor to be honest. To think you could’ve used this instead of those bogus AAU numbers
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1620 » by cjbulls » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:55 am

TheSuzerain wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Go here: https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2020_adj_shooting.html

Sort descending by FG Add or TS Add.

Scroll to the bottom to find Coby.


Ok you’re taking an nba rookie and using his early stats to justify what you know is a weak position. Find anyone on this board show agrees with you.

Anyone want to second tha Coby is one of the worst offensive players in the NBA? That the Bulls should draft Markus Howard because Coby is a bad offensive player and Howard is clearly better? anyone? Bueller?

I said he was one of the worst offensive players in the league last year and showed you a stat showing just that.

Crying about how he was a rookie is in fact not a counter-argument to my argument that he was bad. Sounds like you actually agree he was bad.


No, everyone else here is available to conduct critical thinking. Which isn’t even necessary in this case. Basic thinking shows that Coby is a good offensive player with potential to be great and even elite. You can hide behind words, but it all falls apart when you see your comments that Howard will be better.

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