2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

[PlayerUp]

I’m starting to lean more Obi Toppin @ 4. but he also is able to knock down 3’s as well. Those of you saying that he’s 22 are missing the point that he’s 22 and ready to contribute right now. That fits perfectly in line with the development of guys like Zach, Wendell, Coby, and even Lauri.

His form is a bit awkward, he didn't make 3's in volume and he was less efficient than Wendell Carter from 3 in college. He also played against extremely weak competition.

Looking at AK's picks in Denver, he tends to look for high reward prospects and 2 way players so I would be shocked if he took Obi.

[PlayerUp]

Better don't take that risk and go for a safe pick like Haliburton or Vassell.

We can go risky but some of these prospects just have too many red flags. Obviously we have pointed out LaMelo issues already and Deni issues have been outlined. If we draft any international prospect, it should be Killian Hayes. His advanced stats were the best among the 4 Ball/Deni/Hampton/Hayes.

Euro Cup
17.4 PER
58% TS
12.8 PPG
6.2 APG
39% 3PT
1.6 3s Made

[ArmTriangle]

Read on Twitter

Man, the defender has time to walk behind him and grab the ball off the back of his neck.

[StunnerKO]

2023 idc

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?s=21

[SfBull]

Trade proposals involving trading up for Wiseman.I don't see much of Kwame Brown , Wiseman seems to be much better and more ready than Brown when he was drafted .

Watch on YouTube

[SfBull]

2021 Mock Draft
https://nbadraftroom.com/p/2021-nba-mock-draft/

I know we're trying to make the playoffs next season but damn, that draft is loaded with wings, the most valuable player type today.

As for Wiseman, isn't he the "safest" from among the top prospects in that if he reaches his ceiling, he'd be a great cornerstone of the franchise but if he doesn't he'd be a solid defensive C at least. I'm not comparing them but KAT was touted as a defensive athletic C (to Okafor who was supposed to be way better than him on offense) but look at KAT now.

2021 draft is not only loaded with wings but there are players with star potential.

[SfBull]

I’m starting to lean more Obi Toppin @ 4. I’m imagining in his first year he’d come off the bench most of the year. If/when Lauri gets injuries again this season he’d be able to get his shot to start. If Lauri under performs and isn’t resigned or his price is too high next summer you don’t have heartburn about going separate ways.

As far as Obi’s defense we all know the issues there but we have Wendell and Gafford who are both plus defenders who could give help. Otto Porter when healthy is also a solid defender and is capable of guarding some 4’s in a jam.

Offensively Obi brings a different dimension than anyone else on the team currently. We know the athleticism is there, but he also is able to knock down 3’s as well. Those of you saying that he’s 22 are missing the point that he’s 22 and ready to contribute right now. That fits perfectly in line with the development of guys like Zach, Wendell, Coby, and even Lauri.

Hopefully not.I'd prefer trying to move up getting a promising big like Wiseman or using #4 for gambling on Deni or eventually going safe picking Haliburton or Vassell.I wouldn't be unhappy trading down looking for more picks and dealing players like Lauri or Carter.
We have other possibilities out of picking another PF unless with star potential and I don't see Toppin being that kind of player.For picking just another PF for development it's much better to keep and develop the players we have now.

[sco]

I read this thread, and it reminds me of my single days...It's 2:30 am and the bar closes at 3. There are 4 "people" at the bar and you and your friends are debating which one you should go talk to:

Contestant #1 - Nice body but big nose and bucked teeth
Contestant #2 - Nice smile but crossed eyes and shaved head
Contestant #3 - Nice body, Nice face, but 3 arms
Contestant #4 - Played ball in Israel league and no elite NBA skills

[ZOMG]

I read this thread, and it reminds me of my single days...It's 2:30 am and the bar closes at 3. There are 4 "people" at the bar and you and your friends are debating which one you should go talk to:

Contestant #1 - Nice body but big nose and bucked teeth
Contestant #2 - Nice smile but crossed eyes and shaved head
Contestant #3 - Nice body, Nice face, but 3 arms
Contestant #4 - Played ball in Israel league and no elite NBA skills

And in the end, you make the right choice and go home to your mobile, young PF who's gonna have a bounce back season.

[arusinov]

Here are the list of non NCAA prospects who went in the lottery since 2010.

Enes Kanter
Jonas Valanciunas
Jan Vesely
Bismack Biyombo
Dario Saric
Dante Exum
Mario Hezonja
Emmanuel Mudiay
Kristaps Porziņgis
Dragan Bender
Thon Maker (HS)
Georgios Papagiannis
Frank Ntilikina
Luka Doncic
Sekou Doumbouya

15 total prospects
1 superstar
1 potential star
Couple role players
9-10 busts

The overwhelming amount of Bulls fans want Deni or Hayes. Neither Deni or Hayes performed at high levels overseas. Against tougher competition they actually struggled. The difference between Deni/Hayes and Porzingis/Doncic is that Porzingis/Doncic were actually performing at a high level overseas against strong competition before coming to the NBA. AK himself has taken an enormous amount of international prospects in Denver and only 1 turned out to be a success. Maybe Deni and/or Hayes could turn out to be a success but they're a risk and statistically NCAA prospects turn out to have a better success rate in the NBA.

Well. It's very good reason why teams have to be careful drafting... Wiseman.

Most of guys which really disappointed in this list just didn't play at all on any serious level or were not in rotation of their team.

* Thon Maker played only in HS
* Dante Exum also played just in HS (only in Australia and not in US or Canada)
* Enes Kanter played token minutes for Fenerbahce as 16-17 years old, decided to play in NCAA (for Kentucky ) but was found ineligible

* Bismack Biyombo played just half season for average ACB team Fuenlabrada without much success (6.4 ppg, 5.1 rbs) and by the way he wasn't great playing in lower divisions too (just 9.0 / 6.4 for 3rd division team)
* Georgios Papagiannis played just 12 min per game in Greece league and was out of rotation in Euroleague
* Dragan Bender was totally horrible in Maccabi - not only in Eurouleague and EuroCup (Maccabi had 10 games in Eurouleague and 6 in EuroCupp that season, Bender played only in 10 of 16, some 9 min per game), but in I-BSL too (even his 5.5 / 3.0 / 0.8 on 14.5 min per game stats look much better than reality - he was also totally clueless defender)

* Emmanuel Mudiay played in China and wasn't bad there(18 ppg) but he was injured most of time and appeared in 12 games only... and CBA is very weird and generally very weak league: Jimmer Fredette scored there over 35 ppg all 3 seasons he played there, for example last year Maccabi got from CBA Aaron Jackson as injury replacement - he had 16 ppg, 10 ast in CBA... it was just 4.8 ppg, 1.7 ast for Maccabi.

The people which were actually played serious minutes in Europe and busted were only those 3 guys:
* Frank Ntilikina did play enough minutes in French league and FIBA "Champions league"... He posted just 5.8 / 2.2 /1.7 averages though... and sadly his offensive game never improved
* Mario Hezonija was a rotational player (while with quite limited minutes) in ACB and Euroleague. His stats were not great in any tournament with 5.9 / 2.0 / 1.1 averages and he didn't develop as those who drafted him hoped
* And Jan Vesely which proved to be one of those guys which are successful on lower levels because of their athleticism only but not really skilled.

Others:
Sekou Doumbouya... I don't think we can decide that he's bust after just one injuries(and corona) stricken season.

Dario Saric is not bad role player and he was just 12th pick after all. It does seem to be case when the player is just limited as athlete and so can't progress more.
Jonas Valanciunas is somewhat underwhelming for 5th pick but he's quite good player, had ~ 15 / 10 season now and actually improving
Kristaps Porziņgis is "potential star"
Luka Doncic is superstar

[JohnnyKILLroy]

I read this thread, and it reminds me of my single days...It's 2:30 am and the bar closes at 3. There are 4 "people" at the bar and you and your friends are debating which one you should go talk to:

Contestant #1 - Nice body but big nose and bucked teeth
Contestant #2 - Nice smile but crossed eyes and shaved head
Contestant #3 - Nice body, Nice face, but 3 arms
Contestant #4 - Played ball in Israel league and no elite NBA skills

This so bogus.

#3 is heaven sent. 3 arms? The possibilities are endless.

[MrSparkle]

Are we over-thinking this? Deni is basically an all-around intangibles forward in the mold of Artunas himself, with worse shooting. Artunas is also on record: he likes team-flow and passing. Deni can bring the ball up off a rebound and run point, without hogging usage. There are the two questions about athleticism (particularly lateral movement) and shooting, but neither is an outright flag as much as a gray area - you can make a decent argument that Deni ends up being the best 3P shooter in the top-7, as absurd as that sounds. Edwards, Ball, obviously Wiseman and Okongwu, Okoro, and Hayes aren’t proven 3P shooters either. Meanwhile his IQ, passing, fundamentals, length and handles are all good; his touch around the rim is also pretty good. If he solidifies his form and gets reps in, with open looks? I can see Hayes, Ball and Edwards struggling to shoot over 30% from the arc.

[sco]

Are we over-thinking this? Deni is basically an all-around intangibles forward in the mold of Artunas himself, with worse shooting. Artunas is also on record: he likes team-flow and passing. Deni can bring the ball up off a rebound and run point, without hogging usage. There are the two questions about athleticism (particularly lateral movement) and shooting, but neither is an outright flag as much as a gray area - you can make a decent argument that Deni ends up being the best 3P shooter in the top-7, as absurd as that sounds. Edwards, Ball, obviously Wiseman and Okongwu, Okoro, and Hayes aren’t proven 3P shooters either. Meanwhile his IQ, passing, fundamentals, length and handles are all good; his touch around the rim is also pretty good. If he solidifies his form and gets reps in, with open looks? I can see Hayes, Ball and Edwards struggling to shoot over 30% from the arc.

IMO, what you said about Deni is probably true of the 20 top Euro guys who aren't being cited as a draft candidate. You said it right. A guy with decent (but not elite) length, good (but not elite) handles and good (but not elite) touch around the rim, who needs to improve his shooting. BTW, I really want to say that it is more than the exception than the rule that guys become good 3pt shooters...look around the league, most guys who came in to the league with shooting questions, still can't shoot 3's at 36%+ after 5 years - we focus on the 5 guys who did it, not the 595 guys who didn't and almost assume it will happen. Look at Jimmy Butler...nobody works harder than that dude, and he's still shot 24% for 3's during the regular season.

[TheSuzerain]

Are we over-thinking this? Deni is basically an all-around intangibles forward in the mold of Artunas himself, with worse shooting. Artunas is also on record: he likes team-flow and passing. Deni can bring the ball up off a rebound and run point, without hogging usage. There are the two questions about athleticism (particularly lateral movement) and shooting, but neither is an outright flag as much as a gray area - you can make a decent argument that Deni ends up being the best 3P shooter in the top-7, as absurd as that sounds. Edwards, Ball, obviously Wiseman and Okongwu, Okoro, and Hayes aren’t proven 3P shooters either. Meanwhile his IQ, passing, fundamentals, length and handles are all good; his touch around the rim is also pretty good. If he solidifies his form and gets reps in, with open looks? I can see Hayes, Ball and Edwards struggling to shoot over 30% from the arc.

Dude, you aren't describing a top prospect. It honestly feels like people are trolling with the Deni love. The guy is plainly not an elite prospect. He's a Dario Saric level talent.

You want to draft the guy who is "good" at most things but has lateral movement and shooting questions? Really? At #4? Are you feeling light-headed?

[MrSparkle]

Are we over-thinking this? Deni is basically an all-around intangibles forward in the mold of Artunas himself, with worse shooting. Artunas is also on record: he likes team-flow and passing. Deni can bring the ball up off a rebound and run point, without hogging usage. There are the two questions about athleticism (particularly lateral movement) and shooting, but neither is an outright flag as much as a gray area - you can make a decent argument that Deni ends up being the best 3P shooter in the top-7, as absurd as that sounds. Edwards, Ball, obviously Wiseman and Okongwu, Okoro, and Hayes aren’t proven 3P shooters either. Meanwhile his IQ, passing, fundamentals, length and handles are all good; his touch around the rim is also pretty good. If he solidifies his form and gets reps in, with open looks? I can see Hayes, Ball and Edwards struggling to shoot over 30% from the arc.

Dude, you aren't describing a top prospect. It honestly feels like people are trolling with the Deni love. The guy is plainly not an elite prospect. He's a Dario Saric level talent.

You want to draft the guy who is "good" at most things but has lateral movement and shooting questions? Really? At #4? Are you feeling light-headed?

Well, apparently 95% of the draft scouting community is also light-headed, cause he's been the consensus #4.

And yeah - generally players who are good at everything with no major strikes (questions aren't strikes) are candidates for good prospects. Which guy is supposed to be Lebron in this draft?

[TheSuzerain]

Are we over-thinking this? Deni is basically an all-around intangibles forward in the mold of Artunas himself, with worse shooting. Artunas is also on record: he likes team-flow and passing. Deni can bring the ball up off a rebound and run point, without hogging usage. There are the two questions about athleticism (particularly lateral movement) and shooting, but neither is an outright flag as much as a gray area - you can make a decent argument that Deni ends up being the best 3P shooter in the top-7, as absurd as that sounds. Edwards, Ball, obviously Wiseman and Okongwu, Okoro, and Hayes aren’t proven 3P shooters either. Meanwhile his IQ, passing, fundamentals, length and handles are all good; his touch around the rim is also pretty good. If he solidifies his form and gets reps in, with open looks? I can see Hayes, Ball and Edwards struggling to shoot over 30% from the arc.

Dude, you aren't describing a top prospect. It honestly feels like people are trolling with the Deni love. The guy is plainly not an elite prospect. He's a Dario Saric level talent.

You want to draft the guy who is "good" at most things but has lateral movement and shooting questions? Really? At #4? Are you feeling light-headed?

Well, apparently 95% of the draft scouting community is also light-headed, cause he's been the consensus #4.

And yeah - generally players who are good at everything with no major strikes (questions aren't strikes) are candidates for good prospects. Which guy is supposed to be Lebron in this draft?

The lack of a LeBron isn't an excuse to be advocating for a Dario Saric clone in the top 5.

And he's certainly not good at everything by the NBA standard. If he was, he wouldn't have been a EuroLeague Bench Warmer.

[kodo]

Are we over-thinking this? Deni is basically an all-around intangibles forward in the mold of Artunas himself, with worse shooting. Artunas is also on record: he likes team-flow and passing. Deni can bring the ball up off a rebound and run point, without hogging usage. There are the two questions about athleticism (particularly lateral movement) and shooting, but neither is an outright flag as much as a gray area - you can make a decent argument that Deni ends up being the best 3P shooter in the top-7, as absurd as that sounds. Edwards, Ball, obviously Wiseman and Okongwu, Okoro, and Hayes aren’t proven 3P shooters either. Meanwhile his IQ, passing, fundamentals, length and handles are all good; his touch around the rim is also pretty good. If he solidifies his form and gets reps in, with open looks? I can see Hayes, Ball and Edwards struggling to shoot over 30% from the arc.

Anything can happen, but it would be really weird for Hayes to not eventually develop a 3P shot. He shoots about 87-88% from the FT line, that's already a top 15 FT shooter in the NBA, almost all of the top 15 FT shooters are good 3P shooters as well, the worst being Brogdon who is still a legit shooter. A lot of elite shooters in that group, like Middleton & Booker.

Rose sticks out as an elite FT shooter and poor 3P shooter, but I think this is really a case of focusing on his driving game as he developed over a jump shot.

Everyone in the top 4 has a lot of risk obviously given what little we know, but I would say Hayes' eventual 3P shooting is one of the least risky developments.

[Grodoboldo]

Are we over-thinking this? Deni is basically an all-around intangibles forward in the mold of Artunas himself, with worse shooting. Artunas is also on record: he likes team-flow and passing. Deni can bring the ball up off a rebound and run point, without hogging usage. There are the two questions about athleticism (particularly lateral movement) and shooting, but neither is an outright flag as much as a gray area - you can make a decent argument that Deni ends up being the best 3P shooter in the top-7, as absurd as that sounds. Edwards, Ball, obviously Wiseman and Okongwu, Okoro, and Hayes aren’t proven 3P shooters either. Meanwhile his IQ, passing, fundamentals, length and handles are all good; his touch around the rim is also pretty good. If he solidifies his form and gets reps in, with open looks? I can see Hayes, Ball and Edwards struggling to shoot over 30% from the arc.

Anything can happen, but it would be really weird for Hayes to not eventually develop a 3P shot. He shoots about 87-88% from the FT line, that's already a top 15 FT shooter in the NBA, almost all of the top 15 FT shooters are good 3P shooters as well, the worst being Brogdon who is still a legit shooter. A lot of elite shooters in that group, like Middleton & Booker.

Rose sticks out as an elite FT shooter and poor 3P shooter, but I think this is really a case of focusing on his driving game as he developed over a jump shot.

Everyone in the top 4 has a lot of risk obviously given what little we know, but I would say Hayes' eventual 3P shooting is one of the least risky developments.

Agreed. Also, hs pull-up mechanics are much more developed than his spot up. So he has the hardest part kinda figured out (mechanically speaking). People get too hung up in him not being explosive and don't value his elite creation in P&R situations while also being a possible very good shooter off the dribble. He's by no means a sure thing (no one in this draft is), but I do believe he's underrated.

[cjbulls]

Here are the list of non NCAA prospects who went in the lottery since 2010.

Enes Kanter
Jonas Valanciunas
Jan Vesely
Bismack Biyombo
Dario Saric
Dante Exum
Mario Hezonja
Emmanuel Mudiay
Kristaps Porziņgis
Dragan Bender
Thon Maker (HS)
Georgios Papagiannis
Frank Ntilikina
Luka Doncic
Sekou Doumbouya

15 total prospects
1 superstar
1 potential star
Couple role players
9-10 busts

The overwhelming amount of Bulls fans want Deni or Hayes. Neither Deni or Hayes performed at high levels overseas. Against tougher competition they actually struggled. The difference between Deni/Hayes and Porzingis/Doncic is that Porzingis/Doncic were actually performing at a high level overseas against strong competition before coming to the NBA. AK himself has taken an enormous amount of international prospects in Denver and only 1 turned out to be a success. Maybe Deni and/or Hayes could turn out to be a success but they're a risk and statistically NCAA prospects turn out to have a better success rate in the NBA.

Well. It's very good reason why teams have to be careful drafting... Wiseman.

Most of guys which really disappointed in this list just didn't play at all on any serious level or were not in rotation of their team.

* Thon Maker played only in HS
* Dante Exum also played just in HS (only in Australia and not in US or Canada)
* Enes Kanter played token minutes for Fenerbahce as 16-17 years old, decided to play in NCAA (for Kentucky ) but was found ineligible

* Bismack Biyombo played just half season for average ACB team Fuenlabrada without much success (6.4 ppg, 5.1 rbs) and by the way he wasn't great playing in lower divisions too (just 9.0 / 6.4 for 3rd division team)
* Georgios Papagiannis played just 12 min per game in Greece league and was out of rotation in Euroleague
* Dragan Bender was totally horrible in Maccabi - not only in Eurouleague and EuroCup (Maccabi had 10 games in Eurouleague and 6 in EuroCupp that season, Bender played only in 10 of 16, some 9 min per game), but in I-BSL too (even his 5.5 / 3.0 / 0.8 on 14.5 min per game stats look much better than reality - he was also totally clueless defender)

* Emmanuel Mudiay played in China and wasn't bad there(18 ppg) but he was injured most of time and appeared in 12 games only... and CBA is very weird and generally very weak league: Jimmer Fredette scored there over 35 ppg all 3 seasons he played there, for example last year Maccabi got from CBA Aaron Jackson as injury replacement - he had 16 ppg, 10 ast in CBA... it was just 4.8 ppg, 1.7 ast for Maccabi.

The people which were actually played serious minutes in Europe and busted were only those 3 guys:
* Frank Ntilikina did play enough minutes in French league and FIBA "Champions league"... He posted just 5.8 / 2.2 /1.7 averages though... and sadly his offensive game never improved
* Mario Hezonija was a rotational player (while with quite limited minutes) in ACB and Euroleague. His stats were not great in any tournament with 5.9 / 2.0 / 1.1 averages and he didn't develop as those who drafted him hoped
* And Jan Vesely which proved to be one of those guys which are successful on lower levels because of their athleticism only but not really skilled.

Others:
Sekou Doumbouya... I don't think we can decide that he's bust after just one injuries(and corona) stricken season.

Dario Saric is not bad role player and he was just 12th pick after all. It does seem to be case when the player is just limited as athlete and so can't progress more.
Jonas Valanciunas is somewhat underwhelming for 5th pick but he's quite good player, had ~ 15 / 10 season now and actually improving
Kristaps Porziņgis is "potential star"
Luka Doncic is superstar

But the list isn’t about guys who left school early for eligibility reasons. Wiseman didn’t play because he was essentially kicked off the team, not because he couldn’t. No one doubts he would have played 30mpg otherwise.

If that’s your criteria, then every HS to NBA player should be thrown out (Kobe, Garnett, etc.) along with players with freshman injuries (MPJ and Kyrie)

Those Euros didn’t play for those teams because largely they weren’t good enough. Not the case here.

[cjbulls]

Are we over-thinking this? Deni is basically an all-around intangibles forward in the mold of Artunas himself, with worse shooting. Artunas is also on record: he likes team-flow and passing. Deni can bring the ball up off a rebound and run point, without hogging usage. There are the two questions about athleticism (particularly lateral movement) and shooting, but neither is an outright flag as much as a gray area - you can make a decent argument that Deni ends up being the best 3P shooter in the top-7, as absurd as that sounds. Edwards, Ball, obviously Wiseman and Okongwu, Okoro, and Hayes aren’t proven 3P shooters either. Meanwhile his IQ, passing, fundamentals, length and handles are all good; his touch around the rim is also pretty good. If he solidifies his form and gets reps in, with open looks? I can see Hayes, Ball and Edwards struggling to shoot over 30% from the arc.

Anything can happen, but it would be really weird for Hayes to not eventually develop a 3P shot. He shoots about 87-88% from the FT line, that's already a top 15 FT shooter in the NBA, almost all of the top 15 FT shooters are good 3P shooters as well, the worst being Brogdon who is still a legit shooter. A lot of elite shooters in that group, like Middleton & Booker.

Rose sticks out as an elite FT shooter and poor 3P shooter, but I think this is really a case of focusing on his driving game as he developed over a jump shot.

Everyone in the top 4 has a lot of risk obviously given what little we know, but I would say Hayes' eventual 3P shooting is one of the least risky developments.

Agreed that there is reason to believe in Hayes shooting, especially over other prospects the Bulls are considering.

But I thought Hayes issue was the lack of elite athleticism combined with no right hand, giving him limited ways to attack nba athletes.