2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

[bad knees]

Can't believe that so many people are talking about Wiseman or Okungwu at 4 after watching this year's playoffs. And last year's playoffs. And the year before. And the year before that. And the one before that.

Unless you have a true unicorn big like AD or Jokic, all bigs are complementary players in today's NBA, because they cannot reliably create their own shot. If the Bulls are ever to return to being a good team in the league, it is because they will have finally found a lead guard/wing who can run the offense, score, playmake and play at least decent defense. We have already spent 2 of our 3 top picks in the last three drafts on complementary bigs. We don't need another. We need a lead guard/wing. Preferably two. Currently we have none. Take a shot at whoever you think has the best potential to develop into such a player. Better yet, figure out a way to take two bites at that apple. Until we find that player, we are looking to be mediocre at best.

[wolffy]

Im not super high on wiseman but some of things said about him make me think. Like the notion that big men need to be good shooters or great passers. I really dont think that too many people would have said the same about passing pre Jokic. Sometimes a guy has a skill that translates well. He doesnt always need to fit a mold. Again not saying im all about wiseman but hes talented.

[cjbulls]

I hope you're right so that Wiseman is picked in the Top 3 and we don't need to worry about him.

Bamba has amazing workout videos as well as people pointed out yesterday. Send this amazing workout clip and let us know specifically makes him standout as the next big thing.

Wiseman produced more in his 3 games at Memphis than what Bamba did at Texas. He also had a known strength issue which has proved true in the NBA. Wiseman has no such issues

None of the other prospects have true standout qualities other than Ball’s passing and Edwards strength/athleticism combo. Wiseman’s size/strength/athleticism combo is standout, there a just a lot of unknowns with him and a current decline of positional importance.

The rest of the draft only have good qualities and/or a lot of projection.

Wiseman's athleticism isn't standout. He's fine, but he's a lesser athlete than someone like Mitchell Robinson who is truly explosive/bouncy as a 7-footer.

Wiseman's size/frame certainly is an outlier. He's gigantic. But that doesn't go as far as it used to these days where players can be too tall/big to defend.

Truth of it is that Okongwu has superior size/athleticism from a defensive perspective than Wiseman.

I think you’re going for instincts? Because Wiseman is just as athletic and a similar weight, but with a strong height and wingspan advantage.

6’9, 7’1 for Okongwu

7’1, 7’6 for Wiseman

[JohnnyTapwater]

I think Tyrus Thomas turned me off to Onyeka Okongku. I need him to be good to wash that stink of my evaluations.

[cjbulls]

Can't believe that so many people are talking about Wiseman or Okungwu at 4 after watching this year's playoffs. And last year's playoffs. And the year before. And the year before that. And the one before that.

Unless you have a true unicorn big like AD or Jokic, all bigs are complementary players in today's NBA, because they cannot reliably create their own shot. If the Bulls are ever to return to being a good team in the league, it is because they will have finally found a lead guard/wing who can run the offense, score, playmake and play at least decent defense. We have already spent 2 of our 3 top picks in the last three drafts on complementary bigs. We don't need another. We need a lead guard/wing. Preferably two. Currently we have none. Take a shot at whoever you think has the best potential to develop into such a player. Better yet, figure out a way to take two bites at that apple. Until we find that player, we are looking to be mediocre at best.

The bolded is why people are talking about it.

Plus the draft at #4 (and especially in a weak draft) is about nailing the pick. Forget for a second that MJ went on to be GOAT, should the Blazers have passed on a better prospect merely out of need? Or because wings were not valuable in that particular era? Or because they already had an SG and “needed” a center because that’s what everyone else was winning with?

The goal for the new org should be to get the best player and figure out how to make it work later

[cjbulls]

[url][/url]

Can't believe that so many people are talking about Wiseman or Okungwu at 4 after watching this year's playoffs. And last year's playoffs. And the year before. And the year before that. And the one before that.

Unless you have a true unicorn big like AD or Jokic, all bigs are complementary players in today's NBA, because they cannot reliably create their own shot. If the Bulls are ever to return to being a good team in the league, it is because they will have finally found a lead guard/wing who can run the offense, score, playmake and play at least decent defense. We have already spent 2 of our 3 top picks in the last three drafts on complementary bigs. We don't need another. We need a lead guard/wing. Preferably two. Currently we have none. Take a shot at whoever you think has the best potential to develop into such a player. Better yet, figure out a way to take two bites at that apple. Until we find that player, we are looking to be mediocre at best.

Let’s also look at the remaining teams and their center’s value

Lakers 2nd best player
Clippers 3rd best player
Nuggets 1st best player
Celtics 6th best player
Heat 2nd best player

[bad knees]

[url][/url]

Can't believe that so many people are talking about Wiseman or Okungwu at 4 after watching this year's playoffs. And last year's playoffs. And the year before. And the year before that. And the one before that.

Unless you have a true unicorn big like AD or Jokic, all bigs are complementary players in today's NBA, because they cannot reliably create their own shot. If the Bulls are ever to return to being a good team in the league, it is because they will have finally found a lead guard/wing who can run the offense, score, playmake and play at least decent defense. We have already spent 2 of our 3 top picks in the last three drafts on complementary bigs. We don't need another. We need a lead guard/wing. Preferably two. Currently we have none. Take a shot at whoever you think has the best potential to develop into such a player. Better yet, figure out a way to take two bites at that apple. Until we find that player, we are looking to be mediocre at best.

Let’s also look at the remaining teams and their center’s value

Lakers 2nd best player
Clippers 3rd best player
Nuggets 1st best player
Celtics 6th best player
Heat 2nd best player

And as I said, all of them are complementary except for AD and Jokic. We are going nowhere without one, preferably two, lead guard/wings.

[TheSuzerain]

Wiseman produced more in his 3 games at Memphis than what Bamba did at Texas. He also had a known strength issue which has proved true in the NBA. Wiseman has no such issues

None of the other prospects have true standout qualities other than Ball’s passing and Edwards strength/athleticism combo. Wiseman’s size/strength/athleticism combo is standout, there a just a lot of unknowns with him and a current decline of positional importance.

The rest of the draft only have good qualities and/or a lot of projection.

Wiseman's athleticism isn't standout. He's fine, but he's a lesser athlete than someone like Mitchell Robinson who is truly explosive/bouncy as a 7-footer.

Wiseman's size/frame certainly is an outlier. He's gigantic. But that doesn't go as far as it used to these days where players can be too tall/big to defend.

Truth of it is that Okongwu has superior size/athleticism from a defensive perspective than Wiseman.

I think you’re going for instincts? Because Wiseman is just as athletic and a similar weight, but with a strong height and wingspan advantage.

6’9, 7’1 for Okongwu

7’1, 7’6 for Wiseman

I do indeed mean athleticism/physical advantage.

Wiseman is clearly not as explosive/athletic as Okongwu.

We're in an era of the NBA where additional height is not an advantage. It's arguably more of an advantage to be 6'9" than 7'1".

And then on top of that you layer on the instincts advantage.

[chefo]

I'll disagree with the majority here on Wiseman. Him and Deni are my two favorites and hopefully one is on the board at 4.

Why?

To me, you need to look how one projects against his peers at his height and position. Both Wiseman and Deni are plus athletes at their heights (7'1 and 6'9) respectively. Yeah, yeah, I know when people say Wiseman is not a great lateral athlete. I'm sorry, but there has never been one in the NBA outside of KG that I am aware of. But, dude is outrunning guards down the floor and can dunk with his eyes at the rim. He's also very quick footed for a guy with his frame. He reminds me of a larger, young Dwight. That guy is quite a bit removed from Kat and Embiid athletically speaking. These two are very coordinated for dudes that tall, but I have never seen anything from either of them that says 'wow, I can't believe a 7 footer did that.'

Wiseman has the athleticism and coordination of a guy half-a-foot shorter than he is. With him, it will be about what's between the ears, more so than anything else and on that none of us know what's going up there.

I think people have quite a bit of recency bias when it comes to big guys, just because we have not had a truly dominant defensive center since prime Timmy and prime Dwight. Even Gobert is not as good as these two. And none of them truly compare to the defensive beasts of the late 1980s and 1990s like Zo, Dream and Admiral. Wiseman has the athleticism and build of Admiral. If he has the brains is a different issue, but today's NBA will be dominated by a guy like that. Imagine a Gobert on D that can get you 25 a night on 60% shooting. In other words, a Giannis that controls the paint.

Deni is in a similar position because he's as big as Turk and people just don't realize how huge that is for a wing. He runs well, passes well, sees the floor well and is tough as nails. Lauri needs a dose of whatever koolaid Deni is drinking on a daily basis. And he's just a kid and will probably end up playing at 235-240--in other words he'll be as big as prime LeBron. His shooting is the concern with him, because prime Turk would not be half the player he was if he could not pull up from 27 feet with ease.

I don't see any of the other guys likely available at 4 as big pluses in anything versus peers. Hence, these two guys above are my picks for this year.

On another note, I believe in overwhelming cumulative skill/attributes in the NBA.

From our own recent Bulls history, we actually saw that when we had rook Lauri, Niko, Bobby and Rolo--on the surface you'd say--meh, what's so special about them? Before Niko got shipped off and Rolo benched for playing too well, that quartet averaged something utterly preposterous like 60 & 30 on excellent efficiency for a good stretch of games (starting with a couple of games before Niko came back, when Hoiberg changed the O to feature the bigs), and there was nobody who could figure out how to stop them.

The Bulls bigs were killing other teams, and that was sans Lavine and with such luminaries like Kris, DV, Jerian, and Holiday being our best wings on O. In other words, we had an all-NBA front-court and a G-league back-court and were winning, with what was the best O rating in the NBA, if I remember correctly. There is such a thing as overwhelming the opposition with size--but that requires the team to know how to use said size. One of the reasons why I think the Bulls looked so bad under Boylen is that Rolo left, and I suspect that he was the smartest player on the team. I also believe that there is such a thing as overwhelming stupidity, if you pile up enough coaches and players that have no idea what they're doing (cough, cough, Bulls last year)

On another note, don't think of Lauri as a big. He has always played his best as a really tall wing. Under Hoiberg he played better because he was nimbler and people found him on mismacthes to where he could just dunk it rather than having to twist his way inside. He's not Rolo who could use his Bigfoot frame to just move people out of the way. The reason you keep Lauri is because a well-used Lauri makes life easier on everybody else, just like Niko did when he was here, just by being on the floor. On top of that, Lauri was a pretty good man-to-man defender outside, at least his first two seasons--I can't remember anybody abusing him, even Trae, and he was a pain to shoot over for smaller guys. Hell, move him to the 3 on D. He switches well and guards wings much better than he does help D. You turn him into a positive from a negative, which allows him to be on the floor longer.

Anyhow, if we draft a big, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. A smart team can make high quality bigs work. Then, tell WCJ to lock himself in the gym and work on his elbow shot, 3-point corner shot and on rolling and finishing with contact.

Screw it--go big or go home:

C--Wiseman
PF--WCJ, with improved jumper and 20 pounds lighter
SF--Lauri--also 10 pounds lighter, and allow him to be the ball-handler on screens, something he did very well under Hoiberg and during his FebruLauri stretch
SG--Zach
PG--Anybody with a functioning, above-average ball IQ--hell, even Archi

Otto and Coby, super subs. Teach everybody over 6'7 how to set bone-crushing screens.

Or even, trade Zach, replace him with Coby who plays a lot like him, and just make it a huge point to develop the young bigs to where they are the focal point of the O. Don't know what smart ball-handling kid Zach can fetch back in a trade, but I'd give it a shot. Spend most of the game dunking on people and bombing 3s. Hell, even get CP for Otto and change and watch the Bulls just beat up the East for a year or two.

Alternate reality, I know. People are too stuck up on accepted notions to try to super-size a team nowadays.

[cjbulls]

[url][/url]

Can't believe that so many people are talking about Wiseman or Okungwu at 4 after watching this year's playoffs. And last year's playoffs. And the year before. And the year before that. And the one before that.

Unless you have a true unicorn big like AD or Jokic, all bigs are complementary players in today's NBA, because they cannot reliably create their own shot. If the Bulls are ever to return to being a good team in the league, it is because they will have finally found a lead guard/wing who can run the offense, score, playmake and play at least decent defense. We have already spent 2 of our 3 top picks in the last three drafts on complementary bigs. We don't need another. We need a lead guard/wing. Preferably two. Currently we have none. Take a shot at whoever you think has the best potential to develop into such a player. Better yet, figure out a way to take two bites at that apple. Until we find that player, we are looking to be mediocre at best.

Let’s also look at the remaining teams and their center’s value

Lakers 2nd best player
Clippers 3rd best player
Nuggets 1st best player
Celtics 6th best player
Heat 2nd best player

And as I said, all of them are complementary except for AD and Jokic. We are going nowhere without one, preferably two, lead guard/wings.

So two of the 5 remaining teams for the championship rely on their center as a star. And that means we shouldn’t want a center?

[bad knees]

[url][/url]

Let’s also look at the remaining teams and their center’s value

Lakers 2nd best player
Clippers 3rd best player
Nuggets 1st best player
Celtics 6th best player
Heat 2nd best player

And as I said, all of them are complementary except for AD and Jokic. We are going nowhere without one, preferably two, lead guard/wings.

So two of the 5 remaining teams for the championship rely on their center as a star. And that means we shouldn’t want a center?

We should want a center at 4 if any of the prospects has a realistic shot of becoming AD or Jokic or something similar in terms of initiating and scoring. Becoming the next Bam or Montrezl is not enough. Neither Wiseman or Okongwu comes close to being the sort of unicorn center that can be a number 1 on a team.

[cjbulls]

Wiseman's athleticism isn't standout. He's fine, but he's a lesser athlete than someone like Mitchell Robinson who is truly explosive/bouncy as a 7-footer.

Wiseman's size/frame certainly is an outlier. He's gigantic. But that doesn't go as far as it used to these days where players can be too tall/big to defend.

Truth of it is that Okongwu has superior size/athleticism from a defensive perspective than Wiseman.

I think you’re going for instincts? Because Wiseman is just as athletic and a similar weight, but with a strong height and wingspan advantage.

6’9, 7’1 for Okongwu

7’1, 7’6 for Wiseman

I do indeed mean athleticism/physical advantage.

Wiseman is clearly not as explosive/athletic as Okongwu.

We're in an era of the NBA where additional height is not an advantage. It's arguably more of an advantage to be 6'9" than 7'1".

And then on top of that you layer on the instincts advantage.

Additional height isn’t an advantage? Can you be serious for a minute. If anything we see Okongwu might be best suited to a combo big while Wiseman is a true center.

Let me pull the scouting report from a neutral source, he ringer’s draft. Here are the comments strictly on athleticism for the two.

Okongwu
-quick-leaping ability to score with power
-He’s mobile and versatile, able to drop, switch, or hedge.
-He’s slightly undersized for a center at 6-foot-9 with a 7-foot-1 wingspan. He also needs to get significantly stronger to contain elite post-up bigs like Joel Embiid.

Wiseman
-Athletic marvel who flashes massive two-way potential
-He runs the floor like a gazelle, and he explodes vertically when he has space to launch.
-Displays a rare blend of power and finesse and does a nice job of sealing off his man
-Athletic rim protector whose mere presence can deter opponents.
-Sluggish lateral movement on the perimeter due to a lack of quickness and shoddy footwork. Defenders blow by him too often. At this stage, he’s not switchable.

[cjbulls]

And as I said, all of them are complementary except for AD and Jokic. We are going nowhere without one, preferably two, lead guard/wings.

So two of the 5 remaining teams for the championship rely on their center as a star. And that means we shouldn’t want a center?

We should want a center at 4 if any of the prospects has a realistic shot of becoming AD or Jokic or something similar in terms of initiating and scoring. Becoming the next Bam or Ayton is not enough. Neither Wiseman or Okongwu comes close to being the sort of unicorn center that can be a number 1 on a team.

But why? Would you rather have or a worse prospect? Sometimes you have to take what the draft gives you

[bad knees]

So two of the 5 remaining teams for the championship rely on their center as a star. And that means we shouldn’t want a center?

We should want a center at 4 if any of the prospects has a realistic shot of becoming AD or Jokic or something similar in terms of initiating and scoring. Becoming the next Bam or Ayton is not enough. Neither Wiseman or Okongwu comes close to being the sort of unicorn center that can be a number 1 on a team.

But why? Would you rather have or a worse prospect? Sometimes you have to take what the draft gives you

Hayes and Lewis provide a reasonable shot at being the lead guard that we need. The draft is giving us them, and I see both as significantly more valuable than another complementary big.

[TheSuzerain]

I think you’re going for instincts? Because Wiseman is just as athletic and a similar weight, but with a strong height and wingspan advantage.

6’9, 7’1 for Okongwu

7’1, 7’6 for Wiseman

I do indeed mean athleticism/physical advantage.

Wiseman is clearly not as explosive/athletic as Okongwu.

We're in an era of the NBA where additional height is not an advantage. It's arguably more of an advantage to be 6'9" than 7'1".

And then on top of that you layer on the instincts advantage.

Additional height isn’t an advantage? Can you be serious for a minute. If anything we see Okongwu might be best suited to a combo big while Wiseman is a true center.

Let me pull the scouting report from a neutral source, he ringer’s draft. Here are the comments strictly on athleticism for the two.

Okongwu
-quick-leaping ability to score with power
-He’s mobile and versatile, able to drop, switch, or hedge.
-He’s slightly undersized for a center at 6-foot-9 with a 7-foot-1 wingspan. He also needs to get significantly stronger to contain elite post-up bigs like Joel Embiid.

Wiseman
-Athletic marvel who flashes massive two-way potential
-He runs the floor like a gazelle, and he explodes vertically when he has space to launch.
-Displays a rare blend of power and finesse and does a nice job of sealing off his man
-Athletic rim protector whose mere presence can deter opponents.
-Sluggish lateral movement on the perimeter due to a lack of quickness and shoddy footwork. Defenders blow by him too often. At this stage, he’s not switchable.

Additional height isn't an advantage.

Tacko Fall went undrafted. The Raptors won a title closing out games with two 6' guards in their backcourt.

It is damn near physically impossible for a 7 footer to corral any of the perimeter talent in the league.

"Sluggish lateral movement on the perimeter due to a lack of quickness and shoddy footwork. Defenders blow by him too often. At this stage, he’s not switchable." - this is damning these days. You can't close out games with players that fit this description.

I do agree Okongwu is a combo big. This is a major point in his favor.

[Chicagoat]

Unless Wiseman manages to miraculously learned to defend guards and the perimeter. I wouldn't want him. I would be more comfortable with that negative aspect if he was more dynamic of a player.

But he has question mark about his shooting and scoring potential. Albeit he did have a small sample size so he could have alot more that we haven't seen yet.

I'm interested in the potential. But that's all he is at the moment. Just potential.

[Portiseyes]

Would love to get a 10th pick and grab Nesmith... there are somewhat more complete wings this year but I’d gamble on the elite shooter.

Nesmith would be a bad pickup at #10 with other prospects on the board.

Tony Snell shot 39% from 3 in college final season.
Erik Murphy shot 45.3% from 3 in college final season
Lauri Markkanen shot 42.3% from 3 in college freshman season.
Denzel Valentine shot 44.4% from 3 in college final season.
Doug McDermott shot 45.8% from 3 in college.

While the jury is still out on Lauri, the problem with all these picks by Gar/Pax is they drafted players primarily based on shooting rather than focusing on other key elements like being athletic, poor defensive instincts, having a high motor, quick, high IQ etc. Nesmith has many flaws in his game similar to these prospects above.

Yeah but Nesmith shot 52% on high volume... we’re talking about ELITE catch and shoot here, easily the best shooter in draft, and the dude is always moving. I know he has flaws but you can take his shooting to the bank.

[MrSparkle]

Im not super high on wiseman but some of things said about him make me think. Like the notion that big men need to be good shooters or great passers. I really dont think that too many people would have said the same about passing pre Jokic. Sometimes a guy has a skill that translates well. He doesnt always need to fit a mold. Again not saying im all about wiseman but hes talented.

I've always been a big fan of low-post passers. The concept has always been there. Walton, Sabonis. Then you had 2nd tier guys like that: Brad Miller, Vlade/Webber, Gasols, Duncan.

There just aren't many great ones in history who could also shoot, with some base-line athletic ability. Jokic is the best passing big ever IMO alongside Sabonis and Walton. His IQ, skills and footwork are all maxed out.

In a way, I always thought of Magic and Bird as passing big men who could also dribble and shoot like guards. Their passes were in a fluid flow with their master foot-work.

It's why I never really cared for Noah's passing. He had good vision and awareness and actually delivered really clean bullets, but his foot-work was very sloppy, and as such, I never really thought he commanded defensive attention besides those regular-season win streaks.

I don't think Wiseman has any offensive potential in that realm beyond being a great finisher, especially in transition... Perhaps eventually introducing a working 3P shot in 2-3 years if all pans out.

I do think he'd probably be a success in GS. Especially with all those guys' collective experience and coaching staff/mentors. It's the only spot in the top-5 where he'll be setup to 100% to focus on defense and rebounds fundamentals while working on his offensive game as a long-term goal.

I don't think he'd be the right Bulls pick..

[Rose2Boozer]

I think the Warriors are trolling the league. You don't leave this premium clay on the board in favor of low ceiling perimeter prospects. This kid reminds me of Bam Adebayo.

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

If you're looking for the next Bam, I'd say Onyeka would be the prospect closer to that projection.

When I see Okongwu, it's almost like looking at Wendell Carter Jr. He's probably a little more explosive than Carter Jr., but clearly not explosive enough to be on Bam's level.

[kodo]

GS is probably Wiseman's best landing spot, but from GS's standpoint they've gotten very cheap options like Jordan Bell and McGee to do the same job. Using a #2 pick instead of just buying Jordan Bell from Chicago for cash is a pretty massive overpay for that simple job of "dunk it when they double team Steph or Klay."

It makes too much sense for GS to ship Wiseman for someone more valuable, or if they're going to develop the pick to select a bigger wing as most of the rumors are saying. They can always get another center without having to use any important assets.

Wiseman looks to be better than someone like Bell, maybe more like Whiteside, but it's still probably the least important job on that roster.