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2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

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Desired Prospect

Ball
12
12%
Wiseman
14
14%
Deni
24
25%
Hayes
22
23%
Obi
4
4%
Vassell
8
8%
Okoro
1
1%
Haliburton
5
5%
Onyeka
3
3%
Other
4
4%
 
Total votes: 97

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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#421 » by PlayerUp » Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:35 pm

kodo wrote:GS is probably Wiseman's best landing spot, but from GS's standpoint they've gotten very cheap options like Jordan Bell and McGee to do the same job. Using a #2 pick instead of just buying Jordan Bell from Chicago for cash is a pretty massive overpay for that simple job of "dunk it when they double team Steph or Klay."

It makes too much sense for GS to ship Wiseman for someone more valuable, or if they're going to develop the pick to select a bigger wing as most of the rumors are saying.

They can always get another center without having to use any important assets.


Which is why everyone is expecting them to make a major move. They also have the Timberwolves pick.

Timberwolves Pick + #2 + Wiggins for ???
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#422 » by cjbulls » Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:53 pm

bad knees wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
bad knees wrote:
We should want a center at 4 if any of the prospects has a realistic shot of becoming AD or Jokic or something similar in terms of initiating and scoring. Becoming the next Bam or Ayton is not enough. Neither Wiseman or Okongwu comes close to being the sort of unicorn center that can be a number 1 on a team.


But why? Would you rather have or a worse prospect? Sometimes you have to take what the draft gives you


Hayes and Lewis provide a reasonable shot at being the lead guard that we need. The draft is giving us them, and I see both as significantly more valuable than another complementary big.


You are messing with the logic. You are saying lead guard vs complementary big. Not quite sure what you mean by “lead”. If you mean in stature, then of course you prefer lead to complementary but that isn’t the choice here. You should mean lead big vs lead guard or whatever. Who is more valuable to the Heat, the complementary guard (Dragic) or complementary big (Adebayo)? Or Denver, lead guard (Murray) or lead center (Jokic)?

It’s all situational, so with a crap shoot of a draft you should try to get the best player and stop focusing on position.

If you mean just best guard handling the ball, the remaining playoff teams have more impressive centers than lead guards

Lakers - Rondo
Clippers - Beverley
Nuggets - Murray
Celtics - Tatum
Heat - Dragic
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#423 » by cjbulls » Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:56 pm

Chicagoat wrote:Unless Wiseman manages to miraculously learned to defend guards and the perimeter. I wouldn't want him. I would be more comfortable with that negative aspect if he was more dynamic of a player.

But he has question mark about his shooting and scoring potential. Albeit he did have a small sample size so he could have alot more that we haven't seen yet.

I'm interested in the potential. But that's all he is at the moment. Just potential.


Who isn’t just potential at this point?
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#424 » by TheSuzerain » Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:58 pm

cjbulls wrote:
Chicagoat wrote:Unless Wiseman manages to miraculously learned to defend guards and the perimeter. I wouldn't want him. I would be more comfortable with that negative aspect if he was more dynamic of a player.

But he has question mark about his shooting and scoring potential. Albeit he did have a small sample size so he could have alot more that we haven't seen yet.

I'm interested in the potential. But that's all he is at the moment. Just potential.


Who isn’t just potential at this point?

Okongwu
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#425 » by cjbulls » Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:00 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:I do indeed mean athleticism/physical advantage.

Wiseman is clearly not as explosive/athletic as Okongwu.

We're in an era of the NBA where additional height is not an advantage. It's arguably more of an advantage to be 6'9" than 7'1".

And then on top of that you layer on the instincts advantage.


Additional height isn’t an advantage? Can you be serious for a minute. If anything we see Okongwu might be best suited to a combo big while Wiseman is a true center.

Let me pull the scouting report from a neutral source, he ringer’s draft. Here are the comments strictly on athleticism for the two.

Okongwu
-quick-leaping ability to score with power
-He’s mobile and versatile, able to drop, switch, or hedge.
-He’s slightly undersized for a center at 6-foot-9 with a 7-foot-1 wingspan. He also needs to get significantly stronger to contain elite post-up bigs like Joel Embiid.

Wiseman
-Athletic marvel who flashes massive two-way potential
-He runs the floor like a gazelle, and he explodes vertically when he has space to launch.
-Displays a rare blend of power and finesse and does a nice job of sealing off his man
-Athletic rim protector whose mere presence can deter opponents.
-Sluggish lateral movement on the perimeter due to a lack of quickness and shoddy footwork. Defenders blow by him too often. At this stage, he’s not switchable.

Additional height isn't an advantage.

Tacko Fall went undrafted. The Raptors won a title closing out games with two 6' guards in their backcourt.

It is damn near physically impossible for a 7 footer to corral any of the perimeter talent in the league.

"Sluggish lateral movement on the perimeter due to a lack of quickness and shoddy footwork. Defenders blow by him too often. At this stage, he’s not switchable." - this is damning these days. You can't close out games with players that fit this description.

I do agree Okongwu is a combo big. This is a major point in his favor.


So because Tacko Fall isn’t a success that somehow mean length doesn’t matter? You’re being very disingenuous here.

Lauri has weak lateral movement and can’t guard on switches but I don’t see the Bulls calling it damning? Nor the 6ers or Nuggets for their bigs.

You’re Just trading one problem for another. Okongwu is more switchable but can’t guard the true centers. The opposite is true of Wiseman. That’s fairly typical for big men. You can essentially never get both.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#426 » by cjbulls » Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:01 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
Chicagoat wrote:Unless Wiseman manages to miraculously learned to defend guards and the perimeter. I wouldn't want him. I would be more comfortable with that negative aspect if he was more dynamic of a player.

But he has question mark about his shooting and scoring potential. Albeit he did have a small sample size so he could have alot more that we haven't seen yet.

I'm interested in the potential. But that's all he is at the moment. Just potential.


Who isn’t just potential at this point?

Okongwu


Oh got it. So he’ll be in the all star game this year. Why isn’t he going #1?
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#427 » by bad knees » Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:02 pm

cjbulls wrote:
bad knees wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
But why? Would you rather have or a worse prospect? Sometimes you have to take what the draft gives you


Hayes and Lewis provide a reasonable shot at being the lead guard that we need. The draft is giving us them, and I see both as significantly more valuable than another complementary big.


You are messing with the logic. You are saying lead guard vs complementary big. Not quite sure what you mean by “lead”. If you mean in stature, then of course you prefer lead to complementary but that isn’t the choice here. You should mean lead big vs lead guard or whatever. Who is more valuable to the Heat, the complementary guard (Dragic) or complementary big (Adebayo)? Or Denver, lead guard (Murray) or lead center (Jokic)?

It’s all situational, so with a crap shoot of a draft you should try to get the best player and stop focusing on position.

If you mean just best guard handling the ball, the remaining playoff teams have more impressive centers than lead guards

Lakers - Rondo
Clippers - Beverley
Nuggets - Murray
Celtics - Tatum
Heat - Dragic


I'd prefer a lead wing to a lead guard, but there are no apparent lead wings in this draft. There are, however, a few potential lead guards. And all of them are significantly more valuable than a complementary big like Wiseman or Okongwu. The Bulls will be going nowhere if they draft another complementary big but do not have a lead guard/wing or two to lead the team. We will be placing our near future in the hands of Lavine and White as lead guard/wings, which is not a situation that anyone wants, at a time when we will soon be pressed into retaining our complementary bigs on significant contracts. That's a recipe for continued mediocrity, at best.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#428 » by cjbulls » Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:23 pm

bad knees wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
bad knees wrote:
Hayes and Lewis provide a reasonable shot at being the lead guard that we need. The draft is giving us them, and I see both as significantly more valuable than another complementary big.


You are messing with the logic. You are saying lead guard vs complementary big. Not quite sure what you mean by “lead”. If you mean in stature, then of course you prefer lead to complementary but that isn’t the choice here. You should mean lead big vs lead guard or whatever. Who is more valuable to the Heat, the complementary guard (Dragic) or complementary big (Adebayo)? Or Denver, lead guard (Murray) or lead center (Jokic)?

It’s all situational, so with a crap shoot of a draft you should try to get the best player and stop focusing on position.

If you mean just best guard handling the ball, the remaining playoff teams have more impressive centers than lead guards

Lakers - Rondo
Clippers - Beverley
Nuggets - Murray
Celtics - Tatum
Heat - Dragic


I'd prefer a lead wing to a lead guard, but there are no apparent lead wings in this draft. There are, however, a few potential lead guards. And all of them are significantly more valuable than a complementary big like Wiseman or Okongwu. The Bulls will be going nowhere if they draft another complementary big but do not have a lead guard/wing or two to lead the team. We will be placing our near future in the hands of Lavine and White as lead guard/wings, which is not a situation that anyone wants, at a time when we will soon be pressed into retaining our complementary bigs on significant contracts. That's a recipe for continued mediocrity, at best.


I’m not even in disagreement in concept, but the draft isn’t an assembly line where you order a type and get the #4 pick version of that player. It’s a crap shoot of talent and risk. If a big is a tier above a guard, then that should settle it. And in the case of the Bulls, they have so little direction at this point I would say the better prospect, regardless of same tier, should be picked.

You seem to think this roster should stay largely in tact, just add lead guard and the ship is righted. I’m not of that mindset and don’t think the FO is either.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#429 » by bad knees » Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:33 pm

cjbulls wrote:
bad knees wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
You are messing with the logic. You are saying lead guard vs complementary big. Not quite sure what you mean by “lead”. If you mean in stature, then of course you prefer lead to complementary but that isn’t the choice here. You should mean lead big vs lead guard or whatever. Who is more valuable to the Heat, the complementary guard (Dragic) or complementary big (Adebayo)? Or Denver, lead guard (Murray) or lead center (Jokic)?

It’s all situational, so with a crap shoot of a draft you should try to get the best player and stop focusing on position.

If you mean just best guard handling the ball, the remaining playoff teams have more impressive centers than lead guards

Lakers - Rondo
Clippers - Beverley
Nuggets - Murray
Celtics - Tatum
Heat - Dragic


I'd prefer a lead wing to a lead guard, but there are no apparent lead wings in this draft. There are, however, a few potential lead guards. And all of them are significantly more valuable than a complementary big like Wiseman or Okongwu. The Bulls will be going nowhere if they draft another complementary big but do not have a lead guard/wing or two to lead the team. We will be placing our near future in the hands of Lavine and White as lead guard/wings, which is not a situation that anyone wants, at a time when we will soon be pressed into retaining our complementary bigs on significant contracts. That's a recipe for continued mediocrity, at best.


I’m not even in disagreement in concept, but the draft isn’t an assembly line where you order a type and get the #4 pick version of that player. It’s a crap shoot of talent and risk. If a big is a tier above a guard, then that should settle it. And in the case of the Bulls, they have so little direction at this point I would say the better prospect, regardless of same tier, should be picked.

You seem to think this roster should stay largely in tact, just add lead guard and the ship is righted. I’m not of that mindset and don’t think the FO is either.


You have inaccurately described my mindset, both about the draft and the roster. I fully understand that the draft is a crap shoot. I just see Hayes, Lewis and perhaps a couple of other potential lead guards as significantly more valuable in today's NBA than any of the bigs in the draft, both generally and for the Bulls. Especially for the Bulls. As for the roster, I reluctantly want to blow it up. I am not a "blow it up" guy - I was adamantly against the Jimmy trade - but until we find one or more lead guard/wings, all of this teambuilding effort is wasted. I want to keep looking for those guys, because our team is nothing without them. You can get them through the draft, through a trade or through FA. Perhaps AK can work miracles in the trade market or in attracting a lead FA to come to Chicago. I have strong doubts. But in any event, if you are a team that has zero lead guard/wings, and you are in a position to draft a player who has a reasonable shot of growing into that sort of player, and the alternatives are complementary bigs who have zero shot of becoming a number 1 player on a good team, you draft the potential lead guard/wing, every time. At least in my view.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#430 » by cjbulls » Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:40 pm

bad knees wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
bad knees wrote:
I'd prefer a lead wing to a lead guard, but there are no apparent lead wings in this draft. There are, however, a few potential lead guards. And all of them are significantly more valuable than a complementary big like Wiseman or Okongwu. The Bulls will be going nowhere if they draft another complementary big but do not have a lead guard/wing or two to lead the team. We will be placing our near future in the hands of Lavine and White as lead guard/wings, which is not a situation that anyone wants, at a time when we will soon be pressed into retaining our complementary bigs on significant contracts. That's a recipe for continued mediocrity, at best.


I’m not even in disagreement in concept, but the draft isn’t an assembly line where you order a type and get the #4 pick version of that player. It’s a crap shoot of talent and risk. If a big is a tier above a guard, then that should settle it. And in the case of the Bulls, they have so little direction at this point I would say the better prospect, regardless of same tier, should be picked.

You seem to think this roster should stay largely in tact, just add lead guard and the ship is righted. I’m not of that mindset and don’t think the FO is either.


You have inaccurately described my mindset, both about the draft and the roster. I fully understand that the draft is a crap shoot. I just see Hayes, Lewis and perhaps a couple of other potential lead guards as significantly more valuable in today's NBA than any of the bigs in the draft, both generally and for the Bulls. Especially for the Bulls. As for the roster, I reluctantly want to blow it up. I am not a "blow it up" guy - I was adamantly against the Jimmy trade - but until we find one or more lead guard/wings, all of this teambuilding effort is wasted. I want to keep looking for those guys, because our team is nothing without them. You can get them through the draft, through a trade or through FA. Perhaps AK can work miracles in the trade market or in attracting a lead FA to come to Chicago. I have strong doubts. But in any event, if you are a team that has zero lead guard/wings, and you are in a position to draft a player who has a reasonable shot of growing into that sort of player, and the alternatives are complementary bigs who have zero shot of becoming a number 1 player on a good team, you draft the potential lead guard/wing, every time. At least in my view.


But you’re assuming they’re all going to make it. In reality, less than 20% of the picks will make a meaningful impact in the NBA. Better to hit on the 20% than just choose based on best available at X position

And you’re the one who mentioned needing a lead guard for Zach and Coby.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#431 » by MrSparkle » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:23 pm

kodo wrote:GS is probably Wiseman's best landing spot, but from GS's standpoint they've gotten very cheap options like Jordan Bell and McGee to do the same job. Using a #2 pick instead of just buying Jordan Bell from Chicago for cash is a pretty massive overpay for that simple job of "dunk it when they double team Steph or Klay."

It makes too much sense for GS to ship Wiseman for someone more valuable, or if they're going to develop the pick to select a bigger wing as most of the rumors are saying. They can always get another center without having to use any important assets.

Wiseman looks to be better than someone like Bell, maybe more like Whiteside, but it's still probably the least important job on that roster.


Well, their dominant pre-Durant team relied heavily on Bogut for a good 20mpg. I’d argue his injury was what sealed the deal for Lebron in that CLE chip.

20mpg sounds light, but that is half the game. Of course Bogut was a more talented and skilled player than he was ever really get recognition for due to his injuries and 5th option role.

I’d say Wiseman has WAY more going for him potentially than McGee. The question is just whether any of that matters in today’s NBA, cause the bar is set unrealistically high for a big man to contribute offensively. Jokic and Embiid are generational all-time talents. KAT and Ayton lose a lot.

But it’s hard to tell. I wouldn’t say Bell worked out for anybody. He flashed potential of addressing their needs, but ended up being a problem.

For all the flack in his troubled season, Cousins ultimately was helpful in the deep playoffs. He just couldn’t stay healthy.

If Wiseman pans out for GS, even if he plays the 20 mpg role, that’s a big need for them, and paying a $9m rookie salary is ideal if they get that kid in the all-star game by year 3 by inflating his impact, playing with a great team.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#432 » by bad knees » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:02 pm

cjbulls wrote:
bad knees wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
I’m not even in disagreement in concept, but the draft isn’t an assembly line where you order a type and get the #4 pick version of that player. It’s a crap shoot of talent and risk. If a big is a tier above a guard, then that should settle it. And in the case of the Bulls, they have so little direction at this point I would say the better prospect, regardless of same tier, should be picked.

You seem to think this roster should stay largely in tact, just add lead guard and the ship is righted. I’m not of that mindset and don’t think the FO is either.


You have inaccurately described my mindset, both about the draft and the roster. I fully understand that the draft is a crap shoot. I just see Hayes, Lewis and perhaps a couple of other potential lead guards as significantly more valuable in today's NBA than any of the bigs in the draft, both generally and for the Bulls. Especially for the Bulls. As for the roster, I reluctantly want to blow it up. I am not a "blow it up" guy - I was adamantly against the Jimmy trade - but until we find one or more lead guard/wings, all of this teambuilding effort is wasted. I want to keep looking for those guys, because our team is nothing without them. You can get them through the draft, through a trade or through FA. Perhaps AK can work miracles in the trade market or in attracting a lead FA to come to Chicago. I have strong doubts. But in any event, if you are a team that has zero lead guard/wings, and you are in a position to draft a player who has a reasonable shot of growing into that sort of player, and the alternatives are complementary bigs who have zero shot of becoming a number 1 player on a good team, you draft the potential lead guard/wing, every time. At least in my view.


But you’re assuming they’re all going to make it. In reality, less than 20% of the picks will make a meaningful impact in the NBA. Better to hit on the 20% than just choose based on best available at X position

And you’re the one who mentioned needing a lead guard for Zach and Coby.


Huh? They are all crap shoots. But better to use your number 4 pick on a crap shoot that may actually add real value to the team. Complementary bigs are much easier to find, and only of use if you have a lead guard/wing. For example, we found a nice one last year in the second round.

But more importantly, let me say it again: I see Hayes and Lewis as much, much more valuable at 4 than any of the bigs on the board. It's not just because of their position, but because of their skills, makeup and potential. You seem to be interpreting me as saying that we ought to pick a guard/wing at 4, even if all of them looked like crap. No, that's not it at all. Hayes and Lewis have real potential to grow into the most important player on our team, and to lead our team back into relevance in the league. The upside of Wiseman and Okongwu, in terms of value to the team, is much less. They are crap shoots too. And even if they pan out, it won't help our team that much.

This seems pretty easy to understand to me. Maybe you just think that the chance of Hayes and Lewis growing into a lead guard is so miniscule that we might as well take the best big. If so, we just have a difference of opinion on Hayes and Lewis. For me, their value is so much greater than Wiseman (who is limited offensively and cannot switch on wings) or Okongwu (whose upside is Bam without the passing).
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#433 » by JohnnyTapwater » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:11 pm

I want smart players for the mix we have.

I don't care what position they play. I value high BBIQ and I think that'll take us to the next level.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#434 » by cjbulls » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:18 pm

bad knees wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
bad knees wrote:
You have inaccurately described my mindset, both about the draft and the roster. I fully understand that the draft is a crap shoot. I just see Hayes, Lewis and perhaps a couple of other potential lead guards as significantly more valuable in today's NBA than any of the bigs in the draft, both generally and for the Bulls. Especially for the Bulls. As for the roster, I reluctantly want to blow it up. I am not a "blow it up" guy - I was adamantly against the Jimmy trade - but until we find one or more lead guard/wings, all of this teambuilding effort is wasted. I want to keep looking for those guys, because our team is nothing without them. You can get them through the draft, through a trade or through FA. Perhaps AK can work miracles in the trade market or in attracting a lead FA to come to Chicago. I have strong doubts. But in any event, if you are a team that has zero lead guard/wings, and you are in a position to draft a player who has a reasonable shot of growing into that sort of player, and the alternatives are complementary bigs who have zero shot of becoming a number 1 player on a good team, you draft the potential lead guard/wing, every time. At least in my view.


But you’re assuming they’re all going to make it. In reality, less than 20% of the picks will make a meaningful impact in the NBA. Better to hit on the 20% than just choose based on best available at X position

And you’re the one who mentioned needing a lead guard for Zach and Coby.


Huh? They are all crap shoots. But better to use your number 4 pick on a crap shoot that may actually add real value to the team. Complementary bigs are much easier to find, and only of use if you have a lead guard/wing. For example, we found a nice one last year in the second round.

But more importantly, let me say it again: I see Hayes and Lewis as much, much more valuable at 4 than any of the bigs on the board. It's not just because of their position, but because of their skills, makeup and potential. You seem to be interpreting me as saying that we ought to pick a guard/wing at 4, even if all of them looked like crap. No, that's not it at all. Hayes and Lewis have real potential to grow into the most important player on our team, and to lead our team back into relevance in the league. The upside of Wiseman and Okongwu, in terms of value to the team, is much less. They are crap shoots too. And even if they pan out, it won't help our team that much.

This seems pretty easy to understand to me. Maybe you just think that the chance of Hayes and Lewis growing into a lead guard is so miniscule that we might as well take the best big. If so, we just have a difference of opinion on Hayes and Lewis. For me, their value is so much greater than Wiseman (who is limited offensively and cannot switch on wings) or Okongwu (whose upside is Bam without the passing).


The point is they’re considered worse prospects and, assuming the Bulls think so, they shouldn’t reach. You’re saying “the Bulls need a lead guard so let’s take the best one available at pick 4”. That is faulty logic for drafting.

And you keep saying you want a lead guard, not a complementary big. Assuming you mean lead=star, so would everyone. But the point is Wiseman may be closer to a lead big than Hayes and Lewis are to being a lead guard. If so, take Wiseman.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#435 » by cjbulls » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:20 pm

JohnnyTapwater wrote:I want smart players for the mix we have.

I don't care what position they play. I value high BBIQ and I think that'll take us to the next level.


This team is lacking high b-ball iq, although some of that can be compensated for by a good coach.
Right now the Bulls have one high b-ball iq young player, WCJ, and his foul rate indicates even that is a little suspect.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#436 » by 23-7 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:55 pm

arch, porter are smart
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#437 » by cjbulls » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:01 pm

23-7 wrote:arch, porter are smart


I didn’t consider them to be what I meant as “young players”, i.e. their future prospects.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#438 » by MrSparkle » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:14 pm

cjbulls wrote:
JohnnyTapwater wrote:I want smart players for the mix we have.

I don't care what position they play. I value high BBIQ and I think that'll take us to the next level.


This team is lacking high b-ball iq, although some of that can be compensated for by a good coach.
Right now the Bulls have one high b-ball iq young player, WCJ, and his foul rate indicates even that is a little suspect.


Haven't we seen the benefits, the pattern of great veteran mentorship though?

Does Kawhi become as great as he is without Pop, Duncan, Manu, Parker, Diaw and all those guys mentoring him? I don't think so.

Dirk wasn't relevant as a player anymore, but he was still active and playing on Luka's rookie-year team. Along with JJ Barea until the injury. And Carlisle.

We all know Boylen was a head coaching mistake. Besides that, in hindsight, skipping on Rose and Rubio was an even bigger mistake than I initially thought. I was like "Eh... Sato has some unseen potential, he can defend, shoot."

..I wanted Rubio. Looking back on it, Rose and his Minnesota-Renaissance style of calming down younger players and being a locker-room mentor plus an effective 6th man would've been amazing for every struggling dude on this team.

I 'm pretty sure Sato and Thad stay (since they're not good-trade-value anyway), while a couple of the deadweight roster spots go towards bringing in more vets.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#439 » by cjbulls » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:22 pm

MrSparkle wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
JohnnyTapwater wrote:I want smart players for the mix we have.

I don't care what position they play. I value high BBIQ and I think that'll take us to the next level.


This team is lacking high b-ball iq, although some of that can be compensated for by a good coach.
Right now the Bulls have one high b-ball iq young player, WCJ, and his foul rate indicates even that is a little suspect.


Haven't we seen the benefits, the pattern of great veteran mentorship though?

Does Kawhi become as great as he is without Pop, Duncan, Manu, Parker, Diaw and all those guys mentoring him? I don't think so.

Dirk wasn't relevant as a player anymore, but he was still active and playing on Luka's rookie-year team. Along with JJ Barea until the injury. And Carlisle.

We all know Boylen was a head coaching mistake. Besides that, in hindsight, skipping on Rose and Rubio was an even bigger mistake than I initially thought. I was like "Eh... Sato has some unseen potential, he can defend, shoot."

..I wanted Rubio. Looking back on it, Rose and his Minnesota-Renaissance style of calming down younger players and being a locker-room mentor plus an effective 6th man would've been amazing for every struggling dude on this team.

I 'm pretty sure Sato and Thad stay (since they're not good-trade-value anyway), while a couple of the deadweight roster spots go towards bringing in more vets.


Totally agree. I wanted to trade for Conley last off-season (probably a bad move). Too many posters want a non-stop cycle of trading players for picks without realizing (1) you can only nurture so many young players at one time and (2) you need vets to help the young guys grow.
bad knees
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#440 » by bad knees » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:44 pm

cjbulls wrote:
bad knees wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
But you’re assuming they’re all going to make it. In reality, less than 20% of the picks will make a meaningful impact in the NBA. Better to hit on the 20% than just choose based on best available at X position

And you’re the one who mentioned needing a lead guard for Zach and Coby.


Huh? They are all crap shoots. But better to use your number 4 pick on a crap shoot that may actually add real value to the team. Complementary bigs are much easier to find, and only of use if you have a lead guard/wing. For example, we found a nice one last year in the second round.

But more importantly, let me say it again: I see Hayes and Lewis as much, much more valuable at 4 than any of the bigs on the board. It's not just because of their position, but because of their skills, makeup and potential. You seem to be interpreting me as saying that we ought to pick a guard/wing at 4, even if all of them looked like crap. No, that's not it at all. Hayes and Lewis have real potential to grow into the most important player on our team, and to lead our team back into relevance in the league. The upside of Wiseman and Okongwu, in terms of value to the team, is much less. They are crap shoots too. And even if they pan out, it won't help our team that much.

This seems pretty easy to understand to me. Maybe you just think that the chance of Hayes and Lewis growing into a lead guard is so miniscule that we might as well take the best big. If so, we just have a difference of opinion on Hayes and Lewis. For me, their value is so much greater than Wiseman (who is limited offensively and cannot switch on wings) or Okongwu (whose upside is Bam without the passing).


The point is they’re considered worse prospects and, assuming the Bulls think so, they shouldn’t reach. You’re saying “the Bulls need a lead guard so let’s take the best one available at pick 4”. That is faulty logic for drafting.

And you keep saying you want a lead guard, not a complementary big. Assuming you mean lead=star, so would everyone. But the point is Wiseman may be closer to a lead big than Hayes and Lewis are to being a lead guard. If so, take Wiseman.


Hayes is by no means a reach, and I predict that Lewis will rise on the Big Boards as we approach the draft, and that Wiseman and Okongwu will drop. A recent mock draft had Lewis going at 8 to NYK. https://rolltidewire.usatoday.com/2020/09/14/latest-cbs-sports-nba-mock-draft-has-kira-lewis-as-8th-overall-pick/

Here is how Hayes, Wiseman and Okongwu are ranked on multiple Big Boards right now:

The Ringer
1: Hayes
4: Okongwu
7: Wiseman

NBADraftnet
4: Okongwu
5: Hayes
7: Wiseman

Tankathon
2: Okongwu
3: Hayes
4: Wiseman

The Athletic
4: Wiseman
6: Okongwu
7: Hayes

ESPN
3: Wiseman
5: Okongwu
9: Hayes

CBS
2: Hayes
4: Wiseman
6: Okongwu

Hayes's average ranking: 4.75
Okongwu's average ranking: 4.75
Wiseman's average ranking: 4.83

Only Hayes is ranked number 1 on any of these Big Boards. More to the point, on my Big Board, Hayes is significantly ahead of Wiseman and Okongwu, for all the reasons I have stated. And the Bulls, being a team without a lead guard/wing, desperately need one in order to progress back to relevance. Adding another complementary big, when your lead guards are Lavine and White, will not help much at all.

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