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2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

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Desired Prospect

Ball
12
12%
Wiseman
14
14%
Deni
24
25%
Hayes
22
23%
Obi
4
4%
Vassell
8
8%
Okoro
1
1%
Haliburton
5
5%
Onyeka
3
3%
Other
4
4%
 
Total votes: 97

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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#441 » by Chicagoat » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:58 pm

People are really underselling Hayes as a prospect. A PG with the size and frame that's a triple threat AND a good team defender are valuable in today's NBA. His ability to create his own shot off the dribble and being a maestro in the PnR is something that shouldn't be undersold. He shot near 90% from the free throw line. His shot can transfer over, no doubt about it

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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#442 » by CjayC » Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:48 pm

Hayes is my guy no doubt. Deni my #2. Would be #1 but his shot gives me pause & I just don't see the self-creation translating. Strikes me more as a north-south transition guy(Still important no doubt), than the shifty type that can score in ISO if need be.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#443 » by cjbulls » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:10 am

bad knees wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
bad knees wrote:
Huh? They are all crap shoots. But better to use your number 4 pick on a crap shoot that may actually add real value to the team. Complementary bigs are much easier to find, and only of use if you have a lead guard/wing. For example, we found a nice one last year in the second round.

But more importantly, let me say it again: I see Hayes and Lewis as much, much more valuable at 4 than any of the bigs on the board. It's not just because of their position, but because of their skills, makeup and potential. You seem to be interpreting me as saying that we ought to pick a guard/wing at 4, even if all of them looked like crap. No, that's not it at all. Hayes and Lewis have real potential to grow into the most important player on our team, and to lead our team back into relevance in the league. The upside of Wiseman and Okongwu, in terms of value to the team, is much less. They are crap shoots too. And even if they pan out, it won't help our team that much.

This seems pretty easy to understand to me. Maybe you just think that the chance of Hayes and Lewis growing into a lead guard is so miniscule that we might as well take the best big. If so, we just have a difference of opinion on Hayes and Lewis. For me, their value is so much greater than Wiseman (who is limited offensively and cannot switch on wings) or Okongwu (whose upside is Bam without the passing).


The point is they’re considered worse prospects and, assuming the Bulls think so, they shouldn’t reach. You’re saying “the Bulls need a lead guard so let’s take the best one available at pick 4”. That is faulty logic for drafting.

And you keep saying you want a lead guard, not a complementary big. Assuming you mean lead=star, so would everyone. But the point is Wiseman may be closer to a lead big than Hayes and Lewis are to being a lead guard. If so, take Wiseman.


Hayes is by no means a reach, and I predict that Lewis will rise on the Big Boards as we approach the draft, and that Wiseman and Okongwu will drop. A recent mock draft had Lewis going at 8 to NYK. https://rolltidewire.usatoday.com/2020/09/14/latest-cbs-sports-nba-mock-draft-has-kira-lewis-as-8th-overall-pick/

Here is how Hayes, Wiseman and Okongwu are ranked on multiple Big Boards right now:

The Ringer
1: Hayes
4: Okongwu
7: Wiseman

NBADraftnet
4: Okongwu
5: Hayes
7: Wiseman

Tankathon
2: Okongwu
3: Hayes
4: Wiseman

The Athletic
4: Wiseman
6: Okongwu
7: Hayes

ESPN
3: Wiseman
5: Okongwu
9: Hayes

CBS
2: Hayes
4: Wiseman
6: Okongwu

Hayes's average ranking: 4.75
Okongwu's average ranking: 4.75
Wiseman's average ranking: 4.83

Only Hayes is ranked number 1 on any of these Big Boards. More to the point, on my Big Board, Hayes is significantly ahead of Wiseman and Okongwu, for all the reasons I have stated. And the Bulls, being a team without a lead guard/wing, desperately need one in order to progress back to relevance. Adding another complementary big, when your lead guards are Lavine and White, will not help much at all.


You’re forgetting what started this topic. You said something to the effect of “have you watched the playoffs, centers don’t matter.”

And I said, “when drafting (particularly high and particularly in a bad draft), take the best player, don’t position hunt“

If the Bulls have Hayes or Lewis as the top prospect, then by all means go for it. Otherwise, make a trade or take BPA. Don’t reach, especially in a weak draft because you have some prejudgments about centers. You’re letting the Bulls needs cloud your judgment.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#444 » by Grodoboldo » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:51 am

Rose2Boozer wrote:
Jvaughn wrote:
Rose2Boozer wrote:I think the Warriors are trolling the league. You don't leave this premium clay on the board in favor of low ceiling perimeter prospects. This kid reminds me of Bam Adebayo.


If you're looking for the next Bam, I'd say Onyeka would be the prospect closer to that projection.


When I see Okongwu, it's almost like looking at Wendell Carter Jr. He's probably a little more explosive than Carter Jr., but clearly not explosive enough to be on Bam's level.


Even though coach Jim doofus never used it, Carter actually has a better jumpshot and better passing instincts. Okongwu is faster and more agile.
I particularly like Carter more, though I do prefer Okongwu to Wiseman.
I don't know anything about college basketball. I would rather trade down/out. My Bulls big board for the 2020 Draft (as of September 4th):
1-Edwards; 2-Hayes; 3-Ball; 4-Avdija; 5-Haliburton; 6-Nesmith; 7-Vassel; 8-Okongwu; 9-Williams; 10-Pokusevski.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#445 » by cjbulls » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:29 am

For anyone against taking a big like Okongwu or Wiseman, watch what Bam just did to Tatum. Wow
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#446 » by Chicagoat » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:31 am

cjbulls wrote:For anyone against taking a big like Okongwu or Wiseman, watch what Bam just did to Tatum. Wow
Lol that was filthy. In front of Tatum son too. Hahahahaha.

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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#447 » by MrFortune3 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:45 am

cjbulls wrote:For anyone against taking a big like Okongwu or Wiseman, watch what Bam just did to Tatum. Wow


Very few teams can play like the Warriors and go small to win. You need size and talent.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#448 » by JohnnyTapwater » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:51 am

cjbulls wrote:For anyone against taking a big like Okongwu or Wiseman, watch what Bam just did to Tatum. Wow



Why would Okongwu be able to do it, but Wiseman can't?

I can only see Ben Wallace doing what Bam did to Tatum. That was filthy.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#449 » by cjbulls » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:56 am

JohnnyTapwater wrote:
cjbulls wrote:For anyone against taking a big like Okongwu or Wiseman, watch what Bam just did to Tatum. Wow



Why would Okongwu be able to do it, but Wiseman can't?

I can only see Ben Wallace doing what Bam did to Tatum. That was filthy.


No reason? Either one of them has that potential.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#450 » by Chi town » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:02 am

CjayC wrote:Hayes is my guy no doubt. Deni my #2. Would be #1 but his shot gives me pause & I just don't see the self-creation translating. Strikes me more as a north-south transition guy(Still important no doubt), than the shifty type that can score in ISO if need be.


I'm starting to think we draft them both. Trade Lauri for a pick. Deni at 4 and Lauri for Hayes.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#451 » by Chi town » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:03 am

cjbulls wrote:For anyone against taking a big like Okongwu or Wiseman, watch what Bam just did to Tatum. Wow


We got WCJ to do that.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#452 » by jumpman23j » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:12 am

I think I want Killian Hayes now. Just makes perfect sense for our team. A lineup of Hayes, White, Lavine, Lauri and Wendell doesn't sound too bad.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#453 » by Fastbrk4brkfast » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:14 am

cjbulls wrote:For anyone against taking a big like Okongwu or Wiseman, watch what Bam just did to Tatum. Wow


Watching Bam and Jokic play this last week makes me want to see Okongwu and a healthy Lauri on the court togetherfor the Bulls so bad. No dis to Wendell but I don't think he has the speed to make that play on Tatum without getting a whistle.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#454 » by cjbulls » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:14 am

Chi town wrote:
cjbulls wrote:For anyone against taking a big like Okongwu or Wiseman, watch what Bam just did to Tatum. Wow


We got WCJ to do that.


I really like WCJ and am totally comfortable with him as the Bulls long term center, but I just don’t see him making that clean of a block.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#455 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:16 am

Chi town wrote:
cjbulls wrote:For anyone against taking a big like Okongwu or Wiseman, watch what Bam just did to Tatum. Wow


We got WCJ to do that.


Several centers can do that if they’re standing right under the basket. But Bam was also shading Smart in the weakside corner. That’s what sets him apart.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#456 » by Grodoboldo » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:25 am

Carter is a pretty decent shot blocker. We forget it because our idiot head coach made him trap the ball handler every damn possession.


This block at 00:17 always comes to mind (yeah, yeah, summer league)



Also, this one
I don't know anything about college basketball. I would rather trade down/out. My Bulls big board for the 2020 Draft (as of September 4th):
1-Edwards; 2-Hayes; 3-Ball; 4-Avdija; 5-Haliburton; 6-Nesmith; 7-Vassel; 8-Okongwu; 9-Williams; 10-Pokusevski.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#457 » by bad knees » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:27 am

cjbulls wrote:
bad knees wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
The point is they’re considered worse prospects and, assuming the Bulls think so, they shouldn’t reach. You’re saying “the Bulls need a lead guard so let’s take the best one available at pick 4”. That is faulty logic for drafting.

And you keep saying you want a lead guard, not a complementary big. Assuming you mean lead=star, so would everyone. But the point is Wiseman may be closer to a lead big than Hayes and Lewis are to being a lead guard. If so, take Wiseman.


Hayes is by no means a reach, and I predict that Lewis will rise on the Big Boards as we approach the draft, and that Wiseman and Okongwu will drop. A recent mock draft had Lewis going at 8 to NYK. https://rolltidewire.usatoday.com/2020/09/14/latest-cbs-sports-nba-mock-draft-has-kira-lewis-as-8th-overall-pick/

Here is how Hayes, Wiseman and Okongwu are ranked on multiple Big Boards right now:

The Ringer
1: Hayes
4: Okongwu
7: Wiseman

NBADraftnet
4: Okongwu
5: Hayes
7: Wiseman

Tankathon
2: Okongwu
3: Hayes
4: Wiseman

The Athletic
4: Wiseman
6: Okongwu
7: Hayes

ESPN
3: Wiseman
5: Okongwu
9: Hayes

CBS
2: Hayes
4: Wiseman
6: Okongwu

Hayes's average ranking: 4.75
Okongwu's average ranking: 4.75
Wiseman's average ranking: 4.83

Only Hayes is ranked number 1 on any of these Big Boards. More to the point, on my Big Board, Hayes is significantly ahead of Wiseman and Okongwu, for all the reasons I have stated. And the Bulls, being a team without a lead guard/wing, desperately need one in order to progress back to relevance. Adding another complementary big, when your lead guards are Lavine and White, will not help much at all.


You’re forgetting what started this topic. You said something to the effect of “have you watched the playoffs, centers don’t matter.”

And I said, “when drafting (particularly high and particularly in a bad draft), take the best player, don’t position hunt“

If the Bulls have Hayes or Lewis as the top prospect, then by all means go for it. Otherwise, make a trade or take BPA. Don’t reach, especially in a weak draft because you have some prejudgments about centers. You’re letting the Bulls needs cloud your judgment.


Wrong. I’m not reaching, as evidenced by the rankings of Hayes as set forth above. The issue is why would you be advocating for another big when Hayes is in the same tier, plays a more important position, and potentially fills the Bulls most important need?
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#458 » by bad knees » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:30 am

cjbulls wrote:For anyone against taking a big like Okongwu or Wiseman, watch what Bam just did to Tatum. Wow


Bam made a nice block, but he would be home fishing for weeks without a lead guard/wing like Butler to lead the team. Bam is a wonderful complementary player, but the Heat are nowhere without Jimmy.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#459 » by Fastbrk4brkfast » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:38 am

bad knees wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
bad knees wrote:
Hayes is by no means a reach, and I predict that Lewis will rise on the Big Boards as we approach the draft, and that Wiseman and Okongwu will drop. A recent mock draft had Lewis going at 8 to NYK. https://rolltidewire.usatoday.com/2020/09/14/latest-cbs-sports-nba-mock-draft-has-kira-lewis-as-8th-overall-pick/

Here is how Hayes, Wiseman and Okongwu are ranked on multiple Big Boards right now:

The Ringer
1: Hayes
4: Okongwu
7: Wiseman
high
NBADraftnet
4: Okongwu
5: Hayes
7: Wiseman

Tankathon
2: Okongwu
3: Hayes
4: Wiseman

The Athletic
4: Wiseman
6: Okongwu
7: Hayes

ESPN
3: Wiseman
5: Okongwu
9: Hayes

CBS
2: Hayes
4: Wiseman
6: Okongwu

Hayes's average ranking: 4.75
Okongwu's average ranking: 4.75
Wiseman's average ranking: 4.83

Only Hayes is ranked number 1 on any of these Big Boards. More to the point, on my Big Board, Hayes is significantly ahead of Wiseman and Okongwu, for all the reasons I have stated. And the Bulls, being a team without a lead guard/wing, desperately need one in order to progress back to relevance. Adding another complementary big, when your lead guards are Lavine and White, will not help much at all.


You’re forgetting what started this topic. You said something to the effect of “have you watched the playoffs, centers don’t matter.”

And I said, “when drafting (particularly high and particularly in a bad draft), take the best player, don’t position hunt“

If the Bulls have Hayes or Lewis as the top prospect, then by all means go for it. Otherwise, make a trade or take BPA. Don’t reach, especially in a weak draft because you have some prejudgments about centers. You’re letting the Bulls needs cloud your judgment.


Wrong. I’m not reaching, as evidenced by the rankings of Hayes as set forth above. The issue is why would you be advocating for another big when Hayes is in the same tier, plays a more important position, and potentially fills the Bulls most important need?


Hayes and Okongwu are both potentially foundational pieces for a franchise. I lean toward Okongwu because I think the gap between him and Wendell (and definitely Young) is wider than the gap between Hayes and White. I'm not even sure Hayes is better tbh. He's slower than Coby and a worse shooter especially on catch and shoot which we need to keep the floor spread. And I'm more confident of Okongwu's success in the NBA. The college competition was just so clearly beneath him. And I'd say we need Okongwu's rebounding and high % scoring as much or more than Hayes' playmaking.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#460 » by Grodoboldo » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:42 am

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I don't know anything about college basketball. I would rather trade down/out. My Bulls big board for the 2020 Draft (as of September 4th):
1-Edwards; 2-Hayes; 3-Ball; 4-Avdija; 5-Haliburton; 6-Nesmith; 7-Vassel; 8-Okongwu; 9-Williams; 10-Pokusevski.

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