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2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

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Who do you want?

Ball
27
16%
Wiseman
29
18%
Deni
41
25%
Hayes
31
19%
Obi
4
2%
Vassell
14
9%
Okoro
4
2%
Haliburton
7
4%
Onyeka
3
2%
Other
4
2%
 
Total votes: 164

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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#521 » by PlayerUp » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:41 pm

Chicagoat wrote:Theo showed less than what Hayes showed. Theo is less athletic and is a worse passer than Hayes. Theo can't create space which is something concerning if you want him to be anything as a staring level PG.


All around Hayes looks better than Theo. In fact, what exactly is Theo better than Hayes at? Hayes is the same age is pretty much better than Theo at everything.

Killian Hayes Final 12 Games (Jan-Feb 2020)

14.5 PPG, 5.2 APG, 52.1% 2PT FG, 27.2% 3PT FG, 86.3% FT


That said, Theo is a better prospect than Nico. I would be okay with gambling on Theo if he somehow slips into the 2nd Rd.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#522 » by Andi Obst » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:37 pm

Surprised, but very happy, to see Hayes leading right now. 2 more months until we finally know who we get.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#523 » by Grodoboldo » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:41 pm

Bulldog23 wrote:As much as I like Hayes, it depends on how much management likes Lavine. I can see possibly Okoro being selected here because of Lavine.


Hayes is a good defender and great distributor out of the P&R. He would work great with Lavine.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#524 » by Grodoboldo » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:43 pm

Oh, and NBADraft updated their mock draft yesterday, still has us taking Hayes (yay!).

https://www.nbadraft.net/nba-mock-drafts/
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#525 » by Jvaughn » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:53 pm

PlayerUp wrote:
Jvaughn wrote:
Bulldog23 wrote:As much as I like Hayes, it depends on how much management likes Lavine. I can see possibly Okoro being selected here because of Lavine.


God, I hope not. As far as wings, I have him behind Deni, Vassell and Nesmith. Really don't see the offensive upside. Just another Stanley Johnson.


This is a weak wing draft as well. Next draft will be better. I said yesterday this draft is loaded with playmakers. We haven't had a solid playmaker in decades. Maybe it's time we invest in one this draft.


Definitely agree. I don't much like drafting for need over BPA, but this is a rare occasion where we may be able to do both. Deni is still my #1, but Hayes is right there with him, and both would dramatically improve our ball movement and get this offense going. Letting Coby and Zach work off the ball and get more efficient shots is going to do wonders for our scoring.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#526 » by Grodoboldo » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:02 pm

Jvaughn wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
Jvaughn wrote:
God, I hope not. As far as wings, I have him behind Deni, Vassell and Nesmith. Really don't see the offensive upside. Just another Stanley Johnson.


This is a weak wing draft as well. Next draft will be better. I said yesterday this draft is loaded with playmakers. We haven't had a solid playmaker in decades. Maybe it's time we invest in one this draft.


Definitely agree. I don't much like drafting for need over BPA, but this is a rare occasion where we may be able to do both. Deni is still my #1, but Hayes is right there with him, and both would dramatically improve our ball movement and get this offense going. Letting Coby and Zach work off the ball and get more efficient shots is going to do wonders for our scoring.


I like Deni a lot, but I just don't see him developing as a primary creator. I think that's one of the reasons that he might be a little lower on my board than some people's. Secondary creator? Sure, I bet he could be a pretty competent one (also think that about Coby).
Being a primary creator is one of the things that puts Hayes ahead of him IMO.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#527 » by MrFortune3 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:22 pm

PlayerUp wrote:
Bulldog23 wrote:As much as I like Hayes, it depends on how much management likes Lavine. I can see possibly Okoro being selected here because of Lavine.


If Okoro comes into predraft workouts and his shot hasn't improved at all, he'll drop into the late lottery possibly farther. I see alot of Justise Winslow type vibes with Okoro. Now in Okoro final 10 games of the NCAA season, his shot did slightly improve hitting 34.4% from 3 but it's a small sample size. Need to see improvements from Okoro. Potential is there but he is the most undeveloped player offensively in the lottery.


See, you're saying he would be falling. But all I am hearing is the Bulls landing Deni and then trading for another 1st to land Okoro too :D
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#528 » by wonderboy2 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:27 pm

I guess I can see Hayes being a good sixth man for the bulls. Somebody that can come in set the offense up once he matures. Could be a good Sato replacement. Think he could work well with Dunn-Hutch-Gafford off the bench.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#529 » by MrFortune3 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:30 pm

Grodoboldo wrote:
Jvaughn wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
This is a weak wing draft as well. Next draft will be better. I said yesterday this draft is loaded with playmakers. We haven't had a solid playmaker in decades. Maybe it's time we invest in one this draft.


Definitely agree. I don't much like drafting for need over BPA, but this is a rare occasion where we may be able to do both. Deni is still my #1, but Hayes is right there with him, and both would dramatically improve our ball movement and get this offense going. Letting Coby and Zach work off the ball and get more efficient shots is going to do wonders for our scoring.


I like Deni a lot, but I just don't see him developing as a primary creator. I think that's one of the reasons that he might be a little lower on my board than some people's. Secondary creator? Sure, I bet he could be a pretty competent one (also think that about Coby).
Being a primary creator is one of the things that puts Hayes ahead of him IMO.


If you go the route of taking Hayes, you have to add more size as well. Coby is 6-4 sub 200, Zach is 6-6 200, Hayes is 6-5 about 200.
Depending upon the coach, that is going to be a tricky lineup to pair well defensively. WCJ would have to be on the floor but you need a OPJ or bigger sized F as well.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#530 » by Grodoboldo » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:26 pm

MrFortune3 wrote:
Grodoboldo wrote:
Jvaughn wrote:
Definitely agree. I don't much like drafting for need over BPA, but this is a rare occasion where we may be able to do both. Deni is still my #1, but Hayes is right there with him, and both would dramatically improve our ball movement and get this offense going. Letting Coby and Zach work off the ball and get more efficient shots is going to do wonders for our scoring.


I like Deni a lot, but I just don't see him developing as a primary creator. I think that's one of the reasons that he might be a little lower on my board than some people's. Secondary creator? Sure, I bet he could be a pretty competent one (also think that about Coby).
Being a primary creator is one of the things that puts Hayes ahead of him IMO.


If you go the route of taking Hayes, you have to add more size as well. Coby is 6-4 sub 200, Zach is 6-6 200, Hayes is 6-5 about 200.
Depending upon the coach, that is going to be a tricky lineup to pair well defensively. WCJ would have to be on the floor but you need a OPJ or bigger sized F as well.


Agreed. We'll have to eventually address that. 3 wings would be better than 3 guards, for sure.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#531 » by drosereturn » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:35 pm

MrFortune3 wrote:
Grodoboldo wrote:
Jvaughn wrote:
Definitely agree. I don't much like drafting for need over BPA, but this is a rare occasion where we may be able to do both. Deni is still my #1, but Hayes is right there with him, and both would dramatically improve our ball movement and get this offense going. Letting Coby and Zach work off the ball and get more efficient shots is going to do wonders for our scoring.


I like Deni a lot, but I just don't see him developing as a primary creator. I think that's one of the reasons that he might be a little lower on my board than some people's. Secondary creator? Sure, I bet he could be a pretty competent one (also think that about Coby).
Being a primary creator is one of the things that puts Hayes ahead of him IMO.


If you go the route of taking Hayes, you have to add more size as well. Coby is 6-4 sub 200, Zach is 6-6 200, Hayes is 6-5 about 200.
Depending upon the coach, that is going to be a tricky lineup to pair well defensively. WCJ would have to be on the floor but you need a OPJ or bigger sized F as well.


Which is why I hate Hayes esp bc your entire roster is filled with 6-5s 3 position just to fill a need at pg.
Its not like any of these guys can play and defend 3 positions to make it work.

And hayes is another meh White, Carter type pick just for fit who doesnt move the needle.
Low ceiling starter that will take another 4 yrs to develop.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#532 » by TheSuzerain » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:36 pm

If we're drafting Hayes, he better be starting over White pretty quickly.

We desperately need a playmaker, and that's Hayes best attribute right now.

Hayes/Lavine is a solid pairing on paper.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#533 » by MrFortune3 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:42 pm

Grodoboldo wrote:
MrFortune3 wrote:
Grodoboldo wrote:
I like Deni a lot, but I just don't see him developing as a primary creator. I think that's one of the reasons that he might be a little lower on my board than some people's. Secondary creator? Sure, I bet he could be a pretty competent one (also think that about Coby).
Being a primary creator is one of the things that puts Hayes ahead of him IMO.


If you go the route of taking Hayes, you have to add more size as well. Coby is 6-4 sub 200, Zach is 6-6 200, Hayes is 6-5 about 200.
Depending upon the coach, that is going to be a tricky lineup to pair well defensively. WCJ would have to be on the floor but you need a OPJ or bigger sized F as well.


Agreed. We'll have to eventually address that. 3 wings would be better than 3 guards, for sure.


I think a lot of people assume that the NBA is always going to be small from here on out because everyone is trying to copy the Warriors or Rockets to an extent.
Very few teams have the personnel to do that, heck even attempt to do that.

Simply going small and attempting more 3's isn't going to make you more effective without the talent and coaching staff to utilize the system you're trying to run.
The Bulls don't have the talent necessary to successfully implement positionless basketball right now.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#534 » by Jcool0 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:52 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:If we're drafting Hayes, he better be starting over White pretty quickly.

We desperately need a playmaker, and that's Hayes best attribute right now.

Hayes/Lavine is a solid pairing on paper.


White is a way better player there is almost no chance Hayes starts over him. If Hayes plays more then 20 minutes off the bench that would probably be the best case scenario.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#535 » by TheSuzerain » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:53 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:If we're drafting Hayes, he better be starting over White pretty quickly.

We desperately need a playmaker, and that's Hayes best attribute right now.

Hayes/Lavine is a solid pairing on paper.


White is a way better player there is almost no chance Hayes starts over him. If Hayes plays more then 20 minutes off the bench that would probably be the best case scenario.

If White is a way better player then you don't draft Hayes. Pretty simple.

If White is a way better player that also means Hayes isn't a lotto pick, but I digress.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#536 » by MrFortune3 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:53 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:If we're drafting Hayes, he better be starting over White pretty quickly.

We desperately need a playmaker, and that's Hayes best attribute right now.

Hayes/Lavine is a solid pairing on paper.


Hayes isn't starting over White. Coby just made the 2nd rookie team and came on as a scorer late in the season.
Hayes is beginning as the 3rd guard at best.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#537 » by Jcool0 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:56 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:If we're drafting Hayes, he better be starting over White pretty quickly.

We desperately need a playmaker, and that's Hayes best attribute right now.

Hayes/Lavine is a solid pairing on paper.


White is a way better player there is almost no chance Hayes starts over him. If Hayes plays more then 20 minutes off the bench that would probably be the best case scenario.

If White is a way better player then you don't draft Hayes. Pretty simple.

If White is a way better player that also means Hayes isn't a lotto pick, but I digress.


I dont expect the Bulls to draft Hayes because based purely on talent Hayes isn't a lottery pick.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#538 » by MrFortune3 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:57 pm

drosereturn wrote:
MrFortune3 wrote:
Grodoboldo wrote:
I like Deni a lot, but I just don't see him developing as a primary creator. I think that's one of the reasons that he might be a little lower on my board than some people's. Secondary creator? Sure, I bet he could be a pretty competent one (also think that about Coby).
Being a primary creator is one of the things that puts Hayes ahead of him IMO.


If you go the route of taking Hayes, you have to add more size as well. Coby is 6-4 sub 200, Zach is 6-6 200, Hayes is 6-5 about 200.
Depending upon the coach, that is going to be a tricky lineup to pair well defensively. WCJ would have to be on the floor but you need a OPJ or bigger sized F as well.


Which is why I hate Hayes esp bc your entire roster is filled with 6-5s 3 position just to fill a need at pg.
Its not like any of these guys can play and defend 3 positions to make it work.

And hayes is another meh White, Carter type pick just for fit who doesnt move the needle.
Low ceiling starter that will take another 4 yrs to develop.


I am fine with Hayes being the pick. I like him a lot. I prefer Deni because I think his upside is better and so is his roster fit.
I don't love the idea of a 3 guard line up and sacrificing size, I also think defensively asking Zach, Coby and Hayes to guard is going to be a challenge given the lack of size and individual abilities without having a rim protector and another stout defender on the floor.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#539 » by TheSuzerain » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:58 pm

MrFortune3 wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:If we're drafting Hayes, he better be starting over White pretty quickly.

We desperately need a playmaker, and that's Hayes best attribute right now.

Hayes/Lavine is a solid pairing on paper.


Hayes isn't starting over White. Coby just made the 2nd rookie team and came on as a scorer late in the season.
Hayes is beginning as the 3rd guard at best.

I don't particularly care what rookie team he made.

That mostly means he was given the greenest of lights whereas other rookies had to fight for minutes.

White was significantly worse than Gafford this year and nobody is claiming Gafford has a spot locked down.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#540 » by Grodoboldo » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:01 pm

MrFortune3 wrote:
Grodoboldo wrote:
MrFortune3 wrote:
If you go the route of taking Hayes, you have to add more size as well. Coby is 6-4 sub 200, Zach is 6-6 200, Hayes is 6-5 about 200.
Depending upon the coach, that is going to be a tricky lineup to pair well defensively. WCJ would have to be on the floor but you need a OPJ or bigger sized F as well.


Agreed. We'll have to eventually address that. 3 wings would be better than 3 guards, for sure.


I think a lot of people assume that the NBA is always going to be small from here on out because everyone is trying to copy the Warriors or Rockets to an extent.
Very few teams have the personnel to do that, heck even attempt to do that.

Simply going small and attempting more 3's isn't going to make you more effective without the talent and coaching staff to utilize the system you're trying to run.
The Bulls don't have the talent necessary to successfully implement positionless basketball right now.


I advocate taking Hayes because I believe he'll be BPA, not because he's a guard.
Now, I do take in consideration the way that teams are organizing them selves on offense, so a forward that can't guard in space will definitely have that taken in consideration when I make an evaluation.
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