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What's the plan - Blow-it-up or Maximize?

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Re: What's the plan - Blow-it-up or Maximize? 

Post#21 » by wonderboy2 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:49 pm

The bulls best players are Lavine, White, OPJ, Carter, Markannan. Lavine averaged an efficient 25 points a game with improving defense. He improves every year. White was on fire towards the end of the year. His assist numbers was going up as well. It’s a shame the season ended abruptly because he was balling. Carters defensive impact was very good when healthy. He’s also a tough rebounder, top 14 in the league. He almost averaged a double double last season with excellent defense. That very good for a 20 year old big men. OPJ just needs to stay healthy. He’s an elite catch and shoot 3 point speacialist. He’s a solid team defender and rebounder with high basketball IQ. He was showing the ability to be a creator as well before he got injured. Markannan just needs to get that confidence back. I think confidence is his main problem. He is very skilled just have to stay healthy and stay agressive. Gafford is a nice big off the bench. I think the bulls will surprise people if they can stay healthy and get the right coach.
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Re: What's the plan - Blow-it-up or Maximize? 

Post#22 » by wonderboy2 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:52 pm

The players that should be traded is Sato. He brings absolutely nothing to the team. He’s 29 years old as well. He’s not a leader or a Vet players seems to respect. Bulls might keep him because no team wants him. Thad Young might be another guy to look into trading. You might be able to get something small for Young.
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Re: What's the plan - Blow-it-up or Maximize? 

Post#23 » by Rose2Boozer » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:57 pm

Continue to aquire talent, and don't get locked into any long-term bad contracts.
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Re: What's the plan - Blow-it-up or Maximize? 

Post#24 » by Jeffster81 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:14 pm

If you have the ask the question then the answer is quite clear, blow it up.

You keep White and WCIII and everybody else must go. Start from scratch.
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Re: What's the plan - Blow-it-up or Maximize? 

Post#25 » by 2018C3 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:19 pm

If I was AK, I would blow it up and make trades early and often.

He does not have any attachment to any of these players, and its in his best interests to find guys early on he believes will fit his vision for this team.

This does not necessarily mean taking a step back, it could just mean moving guys out for a equal amount of talent back that more fits his long term plan.

I would start with one way players, and try to bring back two way guys. You have to keep Zach, unless you could bring back another guy with similar offense. Maybe in year another guy might show some promise allowing him to be moved.

But until then, I think Zach should stay. (He either improves, or someone else makes him expendable).
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Re: What's the plan - Blow-it-up or Maximize? 

Post#26 » by pipfan » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:23 pm

The blow up plan I have is
Lavine to NY for the #8 (also, try somehow to get the Dallas 2021 unprotected 1st)
Lauri to Suns for #10
Porter, Young and Sato can be traded or kept until the deadline
Bulls pick #4 (Deni), #8 (Vassel) and #10 (PWilliams)

They suck in 2021, getting a top 5 pick in what looks like the loaded 2021 draft. Then, the 2022 draft is supposed to be the double draft.
This coming year could be a lost season, with COVID still lingering. It would be a good time to tank.
Plus, this moves saves the ownership $ and allows us to swallow deals to accumulate more assets

This year we play White, Vassell, Williams, Deni, Hutch, Carter and Gafford big minutes (Archie too, I guess). We get a good, young coach who grows this this group, then pray for 2021 or 2022 lottery magic

BUT, if we just sit tight, draft the BPA at #4 and go into the new year with a better coach I am fine too. The real problem with that plan is I can't see us getting a good 2021 FA, so then what?
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Re: What's the plan - Blow-it-up or Maximize? 

Post#27 » by TheSuzerain » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:25 pm

Do people not realize that White was pretty terrible last year? He was one of our worst players. Not one of our best.

Never has volume scoring at mediocre efficiency been less valuable than in the current NBA meta.
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Re: What's the plan - Blow-it-up or Maximize? 

Post#28 » by 2018C3 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:32 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:Do people not realize that White was pretty terrible last year? He was one of our worst players. Not one of our best.

Never has volume scoring at mediocre efficiency been less valuable than in the current NBA meta.



Yes he was bad at 19, but has room to grow. He started to show promise at the end of the year with improved stats. I think those of us who think White may improve, are counting on him to continue this progress he has made. It may or may not happen, time will tell.

The guy is making millions of dollars, and can not even buy himself a beer yet. He was playing against fully developed men as a teenager, It's way to early to judge what he may become.
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Re: What's the plan - Blow-it-up or Maximize? 

Post#29 » by TheSuzerain » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:45 pm

2018C3 wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Do people not realize that White was pretty terrible last year? He was one of our worst players. Not one of our best.

Never has volume scoring at mediocre efficiency been less valuable than in the current NBA meta.



Yes he was bad at 19, but has room to grow. He started to show promise at the end of the year with improved stats. I think those of us who think White may improve, are counting on him to continue this progress he has made. It may or may not happen, time will tell.

The guy is making millions of dollars, and can not even buy himself a beer yet. He was playing against fully developed men as a teenager, It's way to early to judge what he may become.

His physical limitations aren't really going anywhere. Poor wingspan with below average vertical explosion. Makes it highly likely he's never going to be a guy getting to the line all that much.

His shooting projects as decent enough but surely not elite.

Similarly, he certainly hasn't shown anything (in college or the pros) to indicate he's going to have above average vision or passing as a guard at the NBA level.

He's fine, but it's pretty obvious he's a bench guard. Yet people here talk about him like he's some sort of pillar of the rebuild.
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Re: What's the plan - Blow-it-up or Maximize? 

Post#30 » by 2018C3 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:54 pm

I think he is either a potent instant offensive bench dual position guard, or a potential starting scoring two with some further improvement.

In general, I like him!
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Re: What's the plan - Blow-it-up or Maximize? 

Post#31 » by bad knees » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:03 pm

I have never before uttered the words, "Blow it up." I love playoff basketball, and being competitive, even if the chances of winning a championship are small. I was completely against the Butler trade, preferring to rebuild around him.

And yet I say, without reservation, "Blow it up now." We know from watching the playoffs for the last several years that, to succeed in today's NBA, a team needs at least one and preferably several guards/wings who can score, create for themselves, create for others, have a strong bbiq and play at least decent defense. If you only have one, then that one needs to be first team all NBA to make it work. With a few very rare exceptions, bigs are complementary players who will get you nowhere unless you have the guards and wings who can make the offense go.

Right now the Bulls do not have any such lead guard/wing. The only person with potential to grow into that type of player is Coby, and his likelihood of doing so is slim. I love Lavine, but he is not that player - he can score and create for himself, but the other aspects are lacking. Lauri and WCJ are no more than complementary bigs, and it is far from clear that either will be above average at their positions.

Moreover, we are heading toward big paydays for Lauri, Lavine and WCJ. The time to trade them is now. And if you are trading them, you might as well see what you can get for OPJ, Sato and Young.

So here are some draft and trade thoughts:

- We should be looking for one or more lead guard/wings. I am not a LaMelo fan - that shot looks unfixable to me. Hayes, Lewis, Anthony and Riller look like they have the greatest chance of becoming a lead guard. Each has significant questions. I don't see any likely lead wings in this draft - I love Vassell but mostly as an elite 3&D SF. Perhaps he grows into a lead wing role.

- Since I don't see Hayes as being significantly better than the other guards, but I do see Vassell as being significantly better than the other wings, I would take Vassell with our first pick. I would prefer to trade down to do so - maybe with the Knicks - but at this point I would take Vassell at 4 if the Bulls are committed to trading Lauri and Lavine for later picks.

- Trade Lauri to PHX for 10 and something else - Cam Johnson would be great. PHX has wanted Lauri for a while; he fits perfectly with their needs for taking the next step. With 10, draft Lewis. This is a little bit of a reach, but we need to get the guys that we want, and Lewis's combination of speed, skills and youth are extremely attractive.

- Trade Lavine and Felicio to PHI for Tobias Harris and a whole bunch of picks, including future firsts. PHI will jump at this because Lavine solves their shooting needs. Insert Harris at PF, which would be a substantial upgrade over Lauri. We can handle his outrageous salary as he will expire when the 2020 draft reaches the end of their rookie contracts. At 21, take Riller. I love this guy; the only negative against him is that he generally played against lesser competition in college, but man, his tape is amazing. He can do everything that a lead guard needs to do. He will be available at 21 because of his draft age (23) and his alma mater. Doesn't matter, draft him.

- See if POR and/or DAL is interested in any combination of OPJ/Sato/Young. I have seen several possible trades. Aim to get someone like Bane, or one of the Beys, or Jalen Smith.

- At 44, take someone with upside like Nwora, Eleby or Tillie.

- Have multiple extra picks for the good drafts in the next couple of years.

Roll with:

Riller/Lewis/Arci
Coby/Bane/Shaq
Vassell/Johnson/Hutch
Harris/Smith/Tillie
WCJ/Gafford
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Re: What's the plan - Blow-it-up or Maximize? 

Post#32 » by TheStig » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:03 pm

The problem with blowing it up is that you're selling at everyone's low value (except Lavine). I think you have to get a good uptempo coach like Joerger and see what these guys can do and then decide who you want to keep and move. The only exception is I would try to get Lauri on a cheap extension.
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Re: What's the plan - Blow-it-up or Maximize? 

Post#33 » by 2018C3 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:16 pm

TheStig wrote:The problem with blowing it up is that you're selling at everyone's low value (except Lavine). I think you have to get a good uptempo coach like Joerger and see what these guys can do and then decide who you want to keep and move. The only exception is I would try to get Lauri on a cheap extension.


You could change things up dramatically without giving up too much, if you trade for players from other teams with equal questions.

The highest value trade in return, may be our draft pick. But that would take a serious set of balls.

With how often draft picks don't meet potential. this may ultimately prove to be the smartest choice going forward almost most of the time. I think more study's need to be done on this.

I'd bet way over 50% of players have higher trade value the day they are drafted, than at 1 / 2 /3 years in.
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Re: What's the plan - Blow-it-up or Maximize? 

Post#34 » by TheStig » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:23 pm

2018C3 wrote:
TheStig wrote:The problem with blowing it up is that you're selling at everyone's low value (except Lavine). I think you have to get a good uptempo coach like Joerger and see what these guys can do and then decide who you want to keep and move. The only exception is I would try to get Lauri on a cheap extension.


You could change things up dramatically without giving up too much, if you trade for players from other teams with equal questions. The highest value trade in return, may be our draft pick. But that would take a serious set of balls.

I don't think any other team in the league had a Boylenesque torpedoing of value. I'd wager to say we'd do best rehabiliating these guys and picking and choosing who we want to keep.

I'd make everyone available including our pick. But blowing it up right now won't net us much from what's on the roster. Trading for someone elses bum doesn't seem like it'd be productive.
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Re: What's the plan - Blow-it-up or Maximize? 

Post#35 » by kodo » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:49 pm

I don't see how tanking is even an option anymore, regardless of what fans want. Adam Silver was on a mission to end this, and he was very successful.

The PR of what happened in Philly was more polite, but what happened was Silver fired GM Hinkie and said installed a replacement. And that replacement was god-awful. The takeaway from that entire fiasco was "you don't want another Bryan Coangelo forced onto you as your executive? Then don't hire a Sam Hinkie and make the NBA do this again." Any GM operating an intentional tank has to be very careful and NBA will have its eyes open. Even the Bulls got hit and Paxson was forced to play Lopez and Holiday down the stretch in the critical Doncic draft. The moves a team can make with a tank nowadays just won't be as effective.

The other angle Silver played was changing the odds, also extremely effective. Both Zion & Ja went to 33 win teams, while 17 & 19 win teams got RJ and Darius Garland.

And the final nail which will be effective in the near future is drafting High School kids. The draft is already a colossal guessing game, and now we'll have to evaluate kids vs HS competition instead of NCAA competition. If the class of 2019 was drafted a year earlier, the rankings were
1. RJ Barrett
2. Nasir Little
3. Cam Reddish
4. Bol Bol
5. Zion Williamson
6. Romeo Langford

So even if you do manage scheme/luck your way into a top 3 lotto pick, the limitations on data will make it harder to pick the BPA. I can't wait to lose an entire season, and get lucky enough to get the top pick in a strong draft, only to select Skal Labissiere who was ranked ahead of Ben Simmons, Brandon Ingram, and Jaylen Brown in his class.
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Re: What's the plan - Blow-it-up or Maximize? 

Post#36 » by d boy gentleman » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:11 pm

I don't see why persons want to blow it up despite anti tanking measures and no guarantee that tanking will lead to a championship. The Philly experiment has been a failure and has left them with more questions than answers.

This team is already a cellar dweller and persons want to blow it up and be a sh*thouse dweller hoping for a a chance to draft the #1 high school player in the country? No thanks, I'd rather pull for another team.

I'd be fine if Lord Arturas and Sir Marcus "rebuild" like the Heat have done.
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Re: What's the plan - Blow-it-up or Maximize? 

Post#37 » by bad knees » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:43 pm

I am not proposing that we blow it up to tank. I want to blow it up because I don't want to get trapped in big-money contracts for non-core pieces like Lauri, Lavine and WCJ. We should blow it up now because we are going to want to trade these guys, and the time to do so, I believe, is now. We can quickly get back to where we are now, hopefully with a better young core.

I don't think that AK wants to blow it up, and who knows what promises he has made to management or what he is thinking. My guess is that he sticks with 4 and 44 and drafts someone like Hayes and Nwora, and sees what the new coach can do with this group. I'm just saying that, if I were GM, I'd blow this team up.
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Re: What's the plan - Blow-it-up or Maximize? 

Post#38 » by JimmyJammer » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:59 pm

Blow up what? It's not like this team had some level of success and is loaded with veterans. When you have one of the youngest teams in the league, you have a responsibility to stay patient and find the right coach to help build a culture. And that starts by hiring guys like McMillan, Kenny Atkinson, Mark Jackson or even Mike Brown. We need to stop hiring first-time coach for a change and get guys who will garner the respect of the players.
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Re: What's the plan - Blow-it-up or Maximize? 

Post#39 » by dougthonus » Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:06 pm

There's nothing to blow up here. You can't trade guys for a whole lot anyway. You draft the best players available regardless of fit because no one here is good enough to worry about their feelings. I don't think you go about intentionally losing. That wasn't a good strategy too often regardless of the times and is a lot worse of one with the new lottery odds.

At the same time, there's not a position on this roster where you say "we're all set there, I'm not going to draft this guy".
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Re: What's the plan - Blow-it-up or Maximize? 

Post#40 » by wonderboy2 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:18 pm

I think a huge need is a solid pg. Last year our starting PG averaged 9 points and 5 assist a game while shooting 32 percent from 3 with terrible defense in 30mpg. I can’t remember a starting PG putting up worse numbers than that. Bulls would look 10 times better with a better pg.

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