Lavine is....

[nomorezorro]

and then the bulls board thread (2/3 opposed to matching kings offer):

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1724882

scrolling through this thread and found a post of mine where i was worried a big long-term deal for zach could hurt our ability to push for contention around 2020

you sweet naive moron

[dice]

general board thread on kings offer to zach:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1724954

almost universal ridicule. my favorite post: "kings trying to bring home slam dunk championship"

and three different JR smith comps

also multiple mentions that the kings claimed that they passed on doncic because they were set at the wing position, then offered lavine substantially more money to play the wing

post #99 is gold

and then the bulls board thread (2/3 opposed to matching kings offer):

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1724882

Dice, this is two years ago, when Zach's value was at an all-time low, back when our front office gambled on Zach after an ACL-injury and right after a season in which Zach was still in recovery mode and out of a lot of games. I thought the FO was crazy back then, too. Two healthy, productive seasons later, Zach's value is nowhere close to where it used to be.

yes, i understand that. the top post of this page suggested that zach took a "discount extension", which is not remotely true. so i took a trip down (bad) memory lane

[Andi Obst]

the top post of this page suggested that zach took a "discount extension", which is not remotely true. so i took a trip down (bad) memory lane

I mean, how could that be true? He literally signed the best deal he could get on the open market after not coming to an agreement with the Bulls before. How you view the contract in hindsight doesn't matter, it obviously wasn't a discount extension at the time.

[Jcool0]

Read on Twitter

[chefo]

general board thread on kings offer to zach:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1724954

almost universal ridicule. my favorite post: "kings trying to bring home slam dunk championship"

and three different JR smith comps

also multiple mentions that the kings claimed that they passed on doncic because they were set at the wing position, then offered lavine substantially more money to play the wing

post #99 is gold

and then the bulls board thread (2/3 opposed to matching kings offer):

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1724882

In all fairness, Zach's first half season with the Bulls was an unmitigated train wreck. He looked like a hot mess that had no business being on the court, let alone being worth 20M per. He only got matched because not matching would have made the FO look like utter fools, given that he was the main piece of the trade for Jimmy and that they had decided to make him the face of the franchise before he had even suited up for a single game. Back then, he sure did not deserve his contract and the Bulls took an awful risk ponying up that much for somebody who had just blown his knee, and looked like utter trash coming back from it... and all of that after already having the experience with Rose which had killed the team's contention chances.

It was a bad decision that kinda' worked out because they decided to invest in him and give him Hardenesque usage. He's a much better player now--that much is true, but that's a very low bar to clear, if we're talking first year with Bulls Zach. Zach has always been a phenom athlete and a good scorer, but going back to his Minny days, the coaches were saying that he's just a clueless player that just doesn't understand HOW to play outside of running, jumping and scoring.

He's matured some, true enough, and I think Jimbo's one redeeming quality as a coach seems to have been to coach some of the stupid out of Zach, but he still, to this day, CANNOT see the game in real time. There's no shame in that, BTW. Most guys in the NBA can't--it's just that if you are using up a third of your team's possessions and are the de facto lead ball handler, it would help the team quite a bit if he could.

I think Thibs had it right on how to use him--which was almost exclusively as a finisher of plays. He probably saw the same things--immensely talented, but cannot be trusted to make a good decision with the ball on a consistent basis, especially in tight games. I think a Zach that can play in a similar fashion to his last year in Minny, but more mature and at 19-21 ppg is much more valuable to a team than 25ppg Zach that utterly dominates the O. The last couple of years, his best games were really when he played mostly off-ball and did not have to dribble much--they were just circumstantial because the Bulls never made a consistent effort to use him that way--but to me, it's doable. That kind of Zach is worth more than 20M per, and probably worth his 25M extension. The one that kills the O with his ISO usage, not so much, no matter what the raw numbers say.

Somebody needs to explain it to him that as a shooter this good, every time he pulls up with a guy in his face is a suboptimal outcome, even if he makes it, given that he is pure money when left even remotely open. To me that's kind of obvious--Klay went from just another good young player to straight up elite once Kerr made him move around, rather than play mostly ISO like Mark Jackson had him do earlier.

[wonderboy2]

If Zach Lavine deal is bad then Sato has the worst deal in the NBA. He gets paid 10 million dollars a year to do absolutely nonthing. Probably the worst free agent signing in bull history. Dunn was a better starting point guard than Sato. Lavine has definitely outplayed his contract. There are vet min players better than Sato.

[TheJordanRule]

general board thread on kings offer to zach:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1724954

almost universal ridicule. my favorite post: "kings trying to bring home slam dunk championship"

and three different JR smith comps

also multiple mentions that the kings claimed that they passed on doncic because they were set at the wing position, then offered lavine substantially more money to play the wing

post #99 is gold

and then the bulls board thread (2/3 opposed to matching kings offer):

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1724882

Dice, this is two years ago, when Zach's value was at an all-time low, back when our front office gambled on Zach after an ACL-injury and right after a season in which Zach was still in recovery mode and out of a lot of games. I thought the FO was crazy back then, too. Two healthy, productive seasons later, Zach's value is nowhere close to where it used to be.

yes, i understand that. the top post of this page suggested that zach took a "discount extension", which is not remotely true. so i took a trip down (bad) memory lane

Agreed. That was scary times due to expensive and how out of left field the deal seemed. I'm glad the FO made the gamble, but... whoo! That was crazy!

[holv03]

Read on Twitter

Lavine looks like he added some muscle to his frame. He looks stronger.

[drosereturn]

Of course winning solves everything, but you need a collective effort to produce wins.

Wait, I thought it was "Stars bring wins in this league, we need to get a true star in Chicago"...? I've read that like a million times on this very forum.

Which is it? If Max LaVine can't bring wins, what the hell is the point of Max LaVine?

The typical illogical "rationale" makes another great appearance... If so-and-so isn't a superstar, why have him on the roster at all?Gee, Idk.

Lavines problem he makes too much money and doesnt produce enough win shares what other max players do. Hes the most paid player even now since Porter as a trade doesnt really count and is gone.
i just really want the contract sorted out so the Bulls can trade him or keep him. Its very obnoxious to the point cant really plan for other fas. Because every gm know he is at best a klay type 20ppg, he should be thankful getting the same salary as a 3rd option.
The moment Lavine avgs 30ppg you realize your team is winning one digit towards the ends of the season.

[wonderboy2]

Wait, I thought it was "Stars bring wins in this league, we need to get a true star in Chicago"...? I've read that like a million times on this very forum.

Which is it? If Max LaVine can't bring wins, what the hell is the point of Max LaVine?

The typical illogical "rationale" makes another great appearance... If so-and-so isn't a superstar, why have him on the roster at all?Gee, Idk.

Lavines problem he makes too much money and doesnt produce enough win shares what other max players do. Hes the most paid player even now since Porter as a trade doesnt really count and is gone.
i just really want the contract sorted out so the Bulls can trade him or keep him. Its very obnoxious to the point cant really plan for other fas. Because every gm know he is at best a klay type 20ppg, he should be thankful getting the same salary as a 3rd option.
The moment Lavine avgs 30ppg you realize your team is winning one digit towards the ends of the season.

This is probably the most inaccurate comment I read in while. Lavine is not making a lot of money. I fact there was a report that many GMs want to trade for Lavine because they view his contract as a bargain. Now the player is overplayed is that scrub Suckeransky. He making 10 million dollars a year and producing worse than Kris Dunn did as a starter the previous year. You can get a vet min player to produce what Sato gave you last year.

[ZOMG]

The typical illogical "rationale" makes another great appearance... If so-and-so isn't a superstar, why have him on the roster at all?Gee, Idk.

Lavines problem he makes too much money and doesnt produce enough win shares what other max players do. Hes the most paid player even now since Porter as a trade doesnt really count and is gone.
i just really want the contract sorted out so the Bulls can trade him or keep him. Its very obnoxious to the point cant really plan for other fas. Because every gm know he is at best a klay type 20ppg, he should be thankful getting the same salary as a 3rd option.
The moment Lavine avgs 30ppg you realize your team is winning one digit towards the ends of the season.

This is probably the most inaccurate comment I read in while. Lavine is not making a lot of money. I fact there was a report that many GMs want to trade for Lavine because they view his contract as a bargain. Now the player is overplayed is that scrub Suckeransky. He making 10 million dollars a year and producing worse than Kris Dunn did as a starter the previous year. You can get a vet min player to produce what Sato gave you last year.

Really, dude? You're firing shots at Sato for not being a player nobody thought he would be? The man was brought in to be a cog in the machine, FFS. He doesn't matter much. He's serviceable. And he most definitely isn't overpaid.

Satoransky is a smart guy who played all last season in a state of confusion. I don't blame him. It looked like the Bulls didn't even know what they wanted him to do, so he often defaulted to forcing the ball to Zach... because, hey, that's a pretty good bet these days.

In a twisted way I'd enjoy seeing LaVine get a humongous deal. At least the goalposts would stop moving for him.

[wonderboy2]

Lavines problem he makes too much money and doesnt produce enough win shares what other max players do. Hes the most paid player even now since Porter as a trade doesnt really count and is gone.
i just really want the contract sorted out so the Bulls can trade him or keep him. Its very obnoxious to the point cant really plan for other fas. Because every gm know he is at best a klay type 20ppg, he should be thankful getting the same salary as a 3rd option.
The moment Lavine avgs 30ppg you realize your team is winning one digit towards the ends of the season.

This is probably the most inaccurate comment I read in while. Lavine is not making a lot of money. I fact there was a report that many GMs want to trade for Lavine because they view his contract as a bargain. Now the player is overplayed is that scrub Suckeransky. He making 10 million dollars a year and producing worse than Kris Dunn did as a starter the previous year. You can get a vet min player to produce what Sato gave you last year.

Really, dude? You're firing shots at Sato for not being a player nobody thought he would be? The man was brought in to be a cog in the machine, FFS. He doesn't matter much. He's serviceable. And he most definitely isn't overpaid.

Satoransky is a smart guy who played all last season in a state of confusion. I don't blame him. It looked like the Bulls didn't even know what they wanted him to do, so he often defaulted to forcing the ball to Zach... because, hey, that's a pretty good bet these days.

In a twisted way I'd enjoy seeing LaVine get a humongous deal. At least the goalposts would stop moving for him.

Sato is not smart first of all. A smart basketball player knows to take open shots and not to pass up open lay ups. And that’s a weak as hell excuse about not knowing what his role is and what to do. It was said many of times from his teammates to the coaching staff that they needed Sato to be more aggressive. He even agreed that he needed to be more aggressive in an interview but he never did. I mean he was nothing special in Washington either. I knew what to expect when he came to the bulls and even then he underperformed. He is getting paid 10 million dollars a season and their are vet min players that out produced him last season in the NBA. Averaging 9 ppg and 5 assist, on 32 percent from 3 when majority of the shots you are taking are wide **** open is **** UNACCEPTABLE. Worst starting pg I’ve seen in a long **** time and definitely worst pg in the NBA last season. His defense donkey **** as well. Teams attacked him worse then they did Korver when he played on the bulls. Dude couldn’t shoot, or defend. He made a ton of bad reads during the season. Terrible passing in transition, missed carter and Markannan a lot when they ran the floor. Dude sucked ass.

[wonderboy2]

And to add on about Sato. He’s 6’7. and plays like a 5’9 guard. He doesn’t use his height at all on the court. He only averaged 3 rebounds a game. For a 6’7 player that’s **** terrible. 9 points 5 assist per game on 32 percent shooting is worst than the numbers Dunn put up as a starting point guard. Only Dunn plays very good defense and Sato defense is hot ****. And yet people on here say Lavine 19 million dollars contract is a bad contract. Lmao only on RealGM Bulls board.

[wonderboy2]

Man Sato was so bad that he put up similar numbers as a starter as Jerian Grant did when he was starting with the bulls. That’s how bad this dude was. Crazy thing is the bulls had plenty of options to sign a better pg. They let Indiana steal Brogdon. They could’ve made a move for Beverly. But they jumped the gun and payed Sato way more than market value. Probably the dumbest contract signing the bulls ever made along with the Felecio contract.

[TeamMan]

Sato is not smart first of all. A smart basketball player knows to take open shots and not to pass up open lay ups. And that’s a weak as hell excuse about not knowing what his role is and what to do. It was said many of times from his teammates to the coaching staff that they needed Sato to be more aggressive. He even agreed that he needed to be more aggressive in an interview but he never did. I mean he was nothing special in Washington either. I knew what to expect when he came to the bulls and even then he underperformed. He is getting paid 10 million dollars a season and their are vet min players that out produced him last season in the NBA. Averaging 9 ppg and 5 assist, on 32 percent from 3 when majority of the shots you are taking are wide **** open is **** UNACCEPTABLE. Worst starting pg I’ve seen in a long **** time and definitely worst pg in the NBA last season. His defense donkey **** as well. Teams attacked him worse then they did Korver when he played on the bulls. Dude couldn’t shoot, or defend. He made a ton of bad reads during the season. Terrible passing in transition, missed carter and Markannan a lot when they ran the floor. Dude sucked ass.

And to add on about Sato. He’s 6’7. It plays like a 5’9 guard. He doesn’t use his height at all on the court. He only averaged 3 rebounds a game. For a 6’7 player that’s **** terrible. 9 points 5 assist per game on 32 percent shooting is worst than the numbers Dunn put up as a starting point guard. Only Dunn plays very good defense and Sato defense is hot ****. And yet people on here say Lavine 19 million dollars contract is a bad contract. Lmao only on RealGM Bulls board.

Some thoughts...

- Sato was a Gar/Pax signing and fit into their "plan/process" (that got them fired).

- Sato was a Sign & Trade for a 2nd round draft pick (Dunn was the 5th pick in the 1st round). This logically fit into the Gar/Pax plan/process.

- The previous year Sato had a triple double but in a different system. He never came close in Jim Boylen's system (the system that got Boylen fired). But remember, OPJ played together with Sato for part of that season, and most likely Gar/Pax were expecting them to have a similar chemistry with the Bulls.

- Coby White was drafted as the replacement for Dunn and the Bulls' PG of the future.

- Sato was brought in to bridge the gap while Coby was developing for the PG position in the NBA.

- Gar/Pax never had any intention of resigning Dunn under any circumstances. They probably were looking to move him in a trade before the trade deadline, but apparently didn't get any offers. At the end of this season, most likely they would have just let him walk.

- This was typical under the Gar/Pax plan/process (again, that got them fired) and consistent with avoiding the Lux Tax at all costs.

In conclusion:

After firing Gar/Pax, it will be interesting to see if ownership will allow AK to develop a new system that is not so Lux Tax dependent. However, IMO they just expect AK to do a better job of balancing talent with cost.

[wonderboy2]

Sato is not smart first of all. A smart basketball player knows to take open shots and not to pass up open lay ups. And that’s a weak as hell excuse about not knowing what his role is and what to do. It was said many of times from his teammates to the coaching staff that they needed Sato to be more aggressive. He even agreed that he needed to be more aggressive in an interview but he never did. I mean he was nothing special in Washington either. I knew what to expect when he came to the bulls and even then he underperformed. He is getting paid 10 million dollars a season and their are vet min players that out produced him last season in the NBA. Averaging 9 ppg and 5 assist, on 32 percent from 3 when majority of the shots you are taking are wide **** open is **** UNACCEPTABLE. Worst starting pg I’ve seen in a long **** time and definitely worst pg in the NBA last season. His defense donkey **** as well. Teams attacked him worse then they did Korver when he played on the bulls. Dude couldn’t shoot, or defend. He made a ton of bad reads during the season. Terrible passing in transition, missed carter and Markannan a lot when they ran the floor. Dude sucked ass.

And to add on about Sato. He’s 6’7. It plays like a 5’9 guard. He doesn’t use his height at all on the court. He only averaged 3 rebounds a game. For a 6’7 player that’s **** terrible. 9 points 5 assist per game on 32 percent shooting is worst than the numbers Dunn put up as a starting point guard. Only Dunn plays very good defense and Sato defense is hot ****. And yet people on here say Lavine 19 million dollars contract is a bad contract. Lmao only on RealGM Bulls board.

Some thoughts...

- Sato was a Gar/Pax signing and fit into their "plan/process" (that got them fired).

- Sato was a Sign & Trade for a 2nd round draft pick (Dunn was the 5th pick in the 1st round). This logically fit into the Gar/Pax plan/process.

- The previous year Sato had a triple double but in a different system. He never came close in Jim Boylen's system (the system that got Boylen fired). But remember, OPJ played together with Sato for part of that season, and most likely Gar/Pax were expecting them to have a similar chemistry with the Bulls.

- Coby White was drafted as the replacement for Dunn and the Bulls' PG of the future.

- Sato was brought in to bridge the gap while Coby was developing for the PG position in the NBA.

- Gar/Pax never had any intention of resigning Dunn under any circumstances. They probably were looking to move him in a trade before the trade deadline, but apparently didn't get any offers. At the end of this season, most likely they would have just let him walk.

- This was typical under the Gar/Pax plan/process (again, that got them fired) and consistent with avoiding the Lux Tax at all costs.

In conclusion:

After firing Gar/Pax, it will be interesting to see if ownership will allow AK to develop a new system that is not so Lux Tax dependent. However, IMO they just expect AK to do a better job of balancing talent with cost.

I agree with you. I actually saw the game where Sato had the triple double. I mean anybody can have a good game. In the bulls system Sato probably was the most wide open player and yet still refused to shoot. And when he did shot he could’ve built a 10 story building with all of those bricks. He was just straight up terrible last season.

[StunnerKO]

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[TheSuzerain]

If Zach Lavine deal is bad then Sato has the worst deal in the NBA. He gets paid 10 million dollars a year to do absolutely nonthing. Probably the worst free agent signing in bull history. Dunn was a better starting point guard than Sato. Lavine has definitely outplayed his contract. There are vet min players better than Sato.

Can you please shut up about Sato.

Sincerely,

Everyone

[StunnerKO]

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[ZOMG]

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"Bulking up for no reason — it's what we do."

- Sincerely, Your Chicago Bulls