Image ImageImage Image

Blurred lines

Moderators: HomoSapien, Tommy Udo 6 , dougthonus, GimmeDat, DASMACKDOWN, Payt10, kulaz3000, fleet, RedBulls23, AshyLarrysDiaper, Ice Man

User avatar
Ugly Duckling
Posts: 2,746
And1: 1,393
Joined: Jul 20, 2014
Location: The Windy

Blurred lines 

Post#1 » by Ugly Duckling » Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:20 pm

Just saw this clip and Redick makes a good point at the end. He says now there are initiators, wings and rim protectors. This puts "positionless" basketball into perspective, because that's just a word that gets thrown around. Looking at our roster, we have no legit initiator (I think Coby and Zach fall into the wings category) or rim protector (Carter is undersized and Gafford needs more development). The other serviceable wings are Porter and Markkanen. Therefore, aside from still drafting the best player available, we need to target an initiator and a rim protector either through the draft, a trade or free agency

*Also, the Rockets' small ball experiment failed. They needed a "rim protector" to pull down boards because their wings weren't disciplined enough to box out every time and crash the glass

mudsak wrote:Watching Kawhi plow through the playoffs like the most stoic gangster to walk the earth has been one of the most epic things I've watched in a while.
User avatar
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,657
And1: 1,088
Joined: Sep 26, 2010
Location: Sao Paulo

Re: Blurred lines 

Post#2 » by Grodoboldo » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:11 pm

Good call, hadn't heard this one!
I think Carter can be a competent rim protector (not elite) and secondary initiator.
I don't know anything about college basketball. I would rather trade down/out. My Bulls big board for the 2020 Draft (as of September 4th):
1-Edwards; 2-Hayes; 3-Ball; 4-Avdija; 5-Haliburton; 6-Nesmith; 7-Vassel; 8-Okongwu; 9-Williams; 10-Pokusevski.
Repeat 3-peat
Posts: 10,403
And1: 10,001
Joined: Nov 02, 2013

Re: Blurred lines 

Post#3 » by Repeat 3-peat » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:42 pm

The Bulls had a top 10 defense until WCJ went down. The team is fine when it comes to rim protection.

What's lacking is a playmaker and a legit star player.
Posts: 14,047
And1: 8,833
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Location: Wrigleyville

Re: Blurred lines 

Post#4 » by kodo » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:47 pm

The rim protector / rim runner is easy to get relatively speaking, Gafford could easily turn into one. Some of the best guys at this position came in the 2nd round like him, eg Deandre Jordan. Capela was a 25th pick, Theis was undrafted. LAL signed McGee as their starting center for $4.2M per year, as they've recently decided they don't even want to start him. I don't see it as kind of priority to get at this stage, it can easily be the last piece of a contending puzzle.

I wouldn't use our best pick possibly in the next 10 years on a rim runner. You can make some trades and get one, sign one in FA, or use a much lower pick.

I don't see Markkanen as a wing TBH. On offense he can't create enough for himself, on defense he's in trouble defending most wings 1 on 1. I'll be curious to see how AK sees Lauri fitting in.
Posts: 16,079
And1: 5,608
Joined: Jul 31, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: Blurred lines 

Post#5 » by MrSparkle » Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:08 pm

Funny that the 90s Bulls stumbled on the formula 25 years ago, but the league went through some interesting transformations. PF/C tower-tandems dominated the NBA from 99-10 to be honest. Small scoring guards went from a hot new commodity to the most disliked type of player, the type who "killed" USA basketball: Iverson, Marbury, Francis, Baron, etc.

But I agree with JJ's lingo. I'd hope Coby becomes a "secondary" initiator sooner than a wing, basically like Murray. I think Zach is worth a shot at SF. We do need that primary "initiator" (uhm, aka an all-star).

I think WCJ can be a rim protector if he gets in shape and stay healthy, just depends what kind of system they run. Bum-rushing the perimeter with him isn't going to work unless Otto, Dunn, Shaq and Hutchinson are the other guys on the floor, and that team obviously isn't scoring a basket.

And unfortunately, GarPax did pick themselves a pile of obsolete "position" players who wouldn't have been playoff starters 20 years ago ANYWAY. In the end, I really just think you need to be a highly skilled and aware player, with a base level of speed and height to hang these days, because the pace is so fast and the schemes are so predictable yet dependent on laser-fast reactions. I don't think it's a surprise at all that "old" teams have been schooling the NBA more than young ones the last few years. There has not been one "hyper-athletic/no-skills" team that "scrapped" it's way to a victory this bubble. All the contenders have been primarily 30+yo players besides Boston and Denver. Denver's 25yo superstar plays like a 35yo. :lol:
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,279
And1: 3,074
Joined: Dec 15, 2014

Re: Blurred lines 

Post#6 » by meekrab » Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:10 pm

I wish we could have a team that fails as effectively as the small ball Rockets who won a playoff series.
User avatar
Posts: 25,057
And1: 2,776
Joined: May 18, 2009

Re: Blurred lines 

Post#7 » by Jvaughn » Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:16 pm

Dammit, now the stupid Robin Thicke song is stick in my head. :banghead:
spearsy23 wrote:Kobe is a low percentage chucker just like Jennings, he's just better at it.

teamCHItown wrote:Now we have threads on what violent felons think of our Bulls. Great. Next up, OJ Simpson's take on a possible Taj Gibson extension.
User avatar
Pro Prospect
Posts: 862
And1: 230
Joined: Jan 23, 2002
Location: DC Area

Re: Blurred lines 

Post#8 » by MikeDC » Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:14 pm

I think the basic framework is correct but the application to the Bulls is pretty far off.

1. The really important Initiators are wings who can initiate and run an offense (Lebron, Kawhi, Tatum, and Giannis if the Bucks knew what they were doing). These guys give a team a big time advantage over guys who are just initiators (Lowry? Kemba?) or are the weird kind of big/initiator sort of player that you get with Jokic and AD. Carter could maybe initiate in the same way that Bam or Domas Sabonis do.

2. I'm tired of people talking up Gafford and talking down Carter. If Carter is "undersized" Gafford is even more undersized.

3. Zach and Coby are potentially initiators, definitely not wings. Wings are big guys who can reasonably defend 3s and small 4s. Our guys can't do that.

4. Lauri is laughably not a wing. He's not a good rim protector, but he's probably closer to being usable as a rim protector than as a guy who you want defending pretty much any forward or big guard.

So your Bulls, insofar as they fit into this rubric:

Initiators - LaVine, White. They're players in the same vein as Jamal Murray.

Wings - Porter

Rim Protector/Initiator - Carter (Maybe)

Rim Protector - Gafford (maybe), Lauri (gulp)

Return to Chicago Bulls