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Billy Donovan hired as next Bulls coach - New coaching staff p39

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Re: BREAKING NEWS : Billy Donovan hired as next Bulls coach 

Post#741 » by dougthonus » Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:15 pm

Surprised how many people are so anti-Rivers, though I'm somewhat in the same boat.

I think he's obviously a good coach and players love him. I think he actually has very similar strengths to Donovan in that he's very much a players coach. Not sure if developmentally he's as strong.
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Re: BREAKING NEWS : Billy Donovan hired as next Bulls coach 

Post#742 » by TheStig » Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:17 pm

dougthonus wrote:Surprised how many people are so anti-Rivers, though I'm somewhat in the same boat.

I think he's obviously a good coach and players love him. I think he actually has very similar strengths to Donovan in that he's very much a players coach. Not sure if developmentally he's as strong.

Rivers is a very good coach for a vet team. Those are the groups he gets the most out of. This just isn't the team for him. I think he ends up in Houston or Philly. I think Houston is the best fit for him. They need to go get him and Aaron Baynes.
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Re: BREAKING NEWS : Billy Donovan hired as next Bulls coach 

Post#743 » by dougthonus » Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:22 pm

TheStig wrote:Rivers is a very good coach for a vet team. Those are the groups he gets the most out of. This just isn't the team for him. I think he ends up in Houston or Philly. I think Houston is the best fit for him. They need to go get him and Aaron Baynes.


He's coached vet teams in LA his entire tenure and didn't get the most out of them. Both the lob city era and the Kawhi era generally fell short of expectations (more sharply this year where they lost as overwhelming favorites then with those Paul teams where they lost more toss up series) and he lost 3 series that were playing teams with similar records (within 1 in season win/loss) and 1 where he was the favorite (+10 wins vs opponents) outside of that.

May have been lots of injury issues in the playoffs and other mitigating factors, I didn't look into enough detail to know for sure, but certainly a guy who leads vets well should win these close ones not lose 100% of them.
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Re: BREAKING NEWS : Billy Donovan hired as next Bulls coach 

Post#744 » by othawhitemeat » Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:57 pm

dougthonus wrote:
TheStig wrote:Rivers is a very good coach for a vet team. Those are the groups he gets the most out of. This just isn't the team for him. I think he ends up in Houston or Philly. I think Houston is the best fit for him. They need to go get him and Aaron Baynes.


He's coached vet teams in LA his entire tenure and didn't get the most out of them. Both the lob city era and the Kawhi era generally fell short of expectations (more sharply this year where they lost as overwhelming favorites then with those Paul teams where they lost more toss up series) and he lost 3 series that were playing teams with similar records (within 1 in season win/loss) and 1 where he was the favorite (+10 wins vs opponents) outside of that.

May have been lots of injury issues in the playoffs and other mitigating factors, I didn't look into enough detail to know for sure, but certainly a guy who leads vets well should win these close ones not lose 100% of them.


He's good at getting max effort out of players and team play. However, he is not a very good execution coach which is why his teams fell short. Also, did not like how his teams always play dirty. Not tough, but dirty.
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Re: BREAKING NEWS : Billy Donovan hired as next Bulls coach 

Post#745 » by bledredwine » Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:57 pm

TheStig wrote:
dougthonus wrote:Surprised how many people are so anti-Rivers, though I'm somewhat in the same boat.

I think he's obviously a good coach and players love him. I think he actually has very similar strengths to Donovan in that he's very much a players coach. Not sure if developmentally he's as strong.

Rivers is a very good coach for a vet team. Those are the groups he gets the most out of. This just isn't the team for him. I think he ends up in Houston or Philly. I think Houston is the best fit for him. They need to go get him and Aaron Baynes.


Exactly. I don't see Doc coaching a young team effectively.
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Re: BREAKING NEWS : Billy Donovan hired as next Bulls coach 

Post#746 » by TheStig » Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:56 pm

dougthonus wrote:
TheStig wrote:Rivers is a very good coach for a vet team. Those are the groups he gets the most out of. This just isn't the team for him. I think he ends up in Houston or Philly. I think Houston is the best fit for him. They need to go get him and Aaron Baynes.


He's coached vet teams in LA his entire tenure and didn't get the most out of them. Both the lob city era and the Kawhi era generally fell short of expectations (more sharply this year where they lost as overwhelming favorites then with those Paul teams where they lost more toss up series) and he lost 3 series that were playing teams with similar records (within 1 in season win/loss) and 1 where he was the favorite (+10 wins vs opponents) outside of that.

May have been lots of injury issues in the playoffs and other mitigating factors, I didn't look into enough detail to know for sure, but certainly a guy who leads vets well should win these close ones not lose 100% of them.

I think the Lob City Clips had a lot of lot of personnel issues with the stars hating each other and no SF in a West that had an elite one on almost every match up. I don't know that anyone could fix the CP3 rifts that were there. It even continued for him into Houston. CP3 doesn't work well unless he's the clear alpha.

It's great to blame him for this year but it was the first year for that group together and all the guys were in and out all year. On top of that Harrell was horrible because he missed half the bubble and Lou got wings. This was also a group that voted to not partcipate, so they weren't in it mentally.

I think he can work with vets. And part of the reason I put him as a vet coach is that he's not taking on a project like us.

I think if you get Houston a nice center like Baynes for the MLE and doc, that they could be a serious contender. Their death line up can work, just not for 48 minutes. Get them Baynes to soak up punishment for 30mpg and matches and they are much harder to beat. Go to the death line up like GSW did.
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Re: BREAKING NEWS : Billy Donovan hired as next Bulls coach 

Post#747 » by Little Nathan » Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:17 pm

My main issue with Rivers always was that he just can't get away from some players he really likes, even when they're actively hurting the team. Last year it was Avery Bradley in the worst year of his career and this season it was Harrell in the playoffs. It was indefensible to play him this much against both the Mavs and the Nuggets, especially against Jokic. They got destroyed in those minutes and he didn't make the obvious adjustment. I think Rivers is fine overall, but overrated for sure.
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Re: BREAKING NEWS : Billy Donovan hired as next Bulls coach 

Post#748 » by dougthonus » Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:20 pm

TheStig wrote:I think the Lob City Clips had a lot of lot of personnel issues with the stars hating each other and no SF in a West that had an elite one on almost every match up. I don't know that anyone could fix the CP3 rifts that were there. It even continued for him into Houston. CP3 doesn't work well unless he's the clear alpha.

It's great to blame him for this year but it was the first year for that group together and all the guys were in and out all year. On top of that Harrell was horrible because he missed half the bubble and Lou got wings. This was also a group that voted to not partcipate, so they weren't in it mentally.

I think he can work with vets. And part of the reason I put him as a vet coach is that he's not taking on a project like us.

I think if you get Houston a nice center like Baynes for the MLE and doc, that they could be a serious contender. Their death line up can work, just not for 48 minutes. Get them Baynes to soak up punishment for 30mpg and matches and they are much harder to beat. Go to the death line up like GSW did.


In the end, here's his playoff resume with the Clippers:
13-14: 57-25
- Beat Warriors 51-31 in 7
- Lose to Thunder 59-23 in 6

14-15: 56-26
- Beat Spurs 55-27 in 7
- Lose to Rockets 56-26 in 7

15-16: 53-29
- Lose to Blazers 44-38 in 6

16-17: 51-31
- Lose to Jazz 51-31 in 7

17-18: 41-41 missed playoffs

18-19: 48-34
- Lose to Warriors 57-25 in 6

19-20 49-23
- Beat Mavs 43-32 in 6
- Lose to Nuggets 46-27 in 7

Out of 9 playoff series, he has 3 wins and 6 losses (this isn't as bad as it sounds as probably almost no one is over .500 in playoff wins unless they're coaching a dynasty). Of these series, they were probably heavily favored in 4 (Warriors 14, Blazers 16, Mavs 20, Nuggets 20) and they lost two of those four. They were probably heavy underdogs in 2 (Warriors 19, Thunder 14) and lost. They were probably toss ups in 3 (Spurs/Rockets 15, Jazz 17) and went 1-2.

Overall:
Series he should have won 2-2
Series that could go either way 1-2
Series he should have lost 0-2

If your skill is working with veteran, playoff oriented teams, that's a really poor result. He never overachieved, underachieved twice, and was 33% in 50/50s.

If they had a lot of personnel issues, then isn't that supposed to be his strength? If it isn't Xs and Os and it isn't managing personalities then what is left? I know this comes off as probably more negative than I feel about Rivers. I think he's a good coach. I also think coaching doesn't matter as much as other people think it matters. If I'm another franchise looking for my head coach then Rivers isn't a guy I'm dialing up and offering elite money to after his most recent performances.
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Re: BREAKING NEWS : Billy Donovan hired as next Bulls coach 

Post#749 » by HomoSapien » Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:31 pm

There's a couple incorrect ideas being mentioned about Doc. The notion that he only does well with veteran/talented teams is wrong. He won Coach of the Year with a rag-tag Orlando team led by guys like Darrell Armstrong, Bo Outlaw, and Chucky Atkins. Last season he won 48 wins with a Clippers team that was trying to tank. Working with those types of teams are clearly a strength and I'd argue that his coaching last season was more impressive than Donovan's of this season, IMO.

The second notion is that the Clippers of Chris Paul and Griffin underachieved with him. Perahps, but it's worth noting that both Griffin and Paul dealt with a lot of injuries during those runs (Paul missed 96 games and Griffin missed 85) often times that derailed their rhythm heading into the playoffs. And that outside of Matt Barnes for two years they always seemed to have a massive hole at small forward that they tried to plug with a collection of aging veterans and borderline NBA talent. He's by no means the perfect coach, but for the most part he does seem to do a great job and is obviously widely respected and admired around the league.
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Re: BREAKING NEWS : Billy Donovan hired as next Bulls coach 

Post#750 » by TheStig » Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:33 pm

dougthonus wrote:
TheStig wrote:I think the Lob City Clips had a lot of lot of personnel issues with the stars hating each other and no SF in a West that had an elite one on almost every match up. I don't know that anyone could fix the CP3 rifts that were there. It even continued for him into Houston. CP3 doesn't work well unless he's the clear alpha.

It's great to blame him for this year but it was the first year for that group together and all the guys were in and out all year. On top of that Harrell was horrible because he missed half the bubble and Lou got wings. This was also a group that voted to not partcipate, so they weren't in it mentally.

I think he can work with vets. And part of the reason I put him as a vet coach is that he's not taking on a project like us.

I think if you get Houston a nice center like Baynes for the MLE and doc, that they could be a serious contender. Their death line up can work, just not for 48 minutes. Get them Baynes to soak up punishment for 30mpg and matches and they are much harder to beat. Go to the death line up like GSW did.


In the end, here's his playoff resume with the Clippers:
13-14: 57-25
- Beat Warriors 51-31 in 7
- Lose to Thunder 59-23 in 6

14-15: 56-26
- Beat Spurs 55-27 in 7
- Lose to Rockets 56-26 in 7

15-16: 53-29
- Lose to Blazers 44-38 in 6

16-17: 51-31
- Lose to Jazz 51-31 in 7

17-18: 41-41 missed playoffs

18-19: 48-34
- Lose to Warriors 57-25 in 6

19-20 49-23
- Beat Mavs 43-32 in 6
- Lose to Nuggets 46-27 in 7

Out of 9 playoff series, he has 3 wins and 6 losses (this isn't as bad as it sounds as probably almost no one is over .500 in playoff wins unless they're coaching a dynasty). Of these series, they were probably heavily favored in 4 (Warriors 14, Blazers 16, Mavs 20, Nuggets 20) and they lost two of those four. They were probably heavy underdogs in 2 (Warriors 19, Thunder 14) and lost. They were probably toss ups in 3 (Spurs/Rockets 15, Jazz 17) and went 1-2.

Overall:
Series he should have won 2-2
Series that could go either way 1-2
Series he should have lost 0-2

If your skill is working with veteran, playoff oriented teams, that's a really poor result. He never overachieved, underachieved twice, and was 33% in 50/50s.

If they had a lot of personnel issues, then isn't that supposed to be his strength? If it isn't Xs and Os and it isn't managing personalities then what is left? I know this comes off as probably more negative than I feel about Rivers. I think he's a good coach. I also think coaching doesn't matter as much as other people think it matters. If I'm another franchise looking for my head coach then Rivers isn't a guy I'm dialing up and offering elite money to after his most recent performances.

I am not even going to count this years team. I'm sorry but they are a new team this year, hardly even played together and Harrell and Williams were gone half the bubble, PG didn't pick up a basketball for months and the team voted not to be there.

In Lob City, you had a lot of guys hating on CP3 and no big wing. As you pointed out, they lost to teams led by Durant and Harden, had the Donald Sterling distractions and lets be honest, CP3 chokes in the playoffs. He might be the one star who chokes more than Harden.

I get what you're saying, he's not an elite coach. And I never called him elite. He however is good with vet teams. LAC had a flawed roster during lob city. CP3 is not a good playoff performer, they never had a good two big wing to gaurd all the big wings they ran into and DJ can't hit a free throw to save his life. Did you really expect them to win a ring? None of these teams were high level contenders.
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Re: BREAKING NEWS : Billy Donovan hired as next Bulls coach 

Post#751 » by FranchisePlayer » Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:02 pm

dougthonus wrote:
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He also has won an NBA championship as a head coach.


Yes he does.

Doc Rivers is so overrated.


Head coaches in general are overrated. People have significantly inflated expectations as to the impact of the head coach on the game and thus people whom are thought of highly often have negative backlash later for underperformance when it becomes clear their positive impact didn't carry over, but the big secret is that is true of pretty much everyone.

So in a nutshell, every coach people think is incredible is probably overrated IMO, but many of them never have it proven, and by overrated, I don't mean they're bad. Tehy're great. Still probably the best in the world at what they do. However the impact of the best coach in the world and the 30th best coach isn't so different. The best coach just typically has a better situation.


I don't know Doug... I think I asked you how to evaluate coaches qualitatively and you said you couldn't think of a tool to do that. So in that respect I don't get what makes you so vehemently argue against coach's significance in a team's wins. When the reality is, you can't really back up your claim with any clear cut data nor can I for that matter. Might as well give the subject little longer leash.

I know many cases, not just in basketball, where a tool of a coach has had a plethora of talent and failed to win the title by a large margin. So I think your last sentence isn't really valid.
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Re: BREAKING NEWS : Billy Donovan hired as next Bulls coach 

Post#752 » by dougthonus » Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:55 pm

FranchisePlayer wrote:I don't know Doug... I think I asked you how to evaluate coaches qualitatively and you said you couldn't think of a tool to do that. So in that respect I don't get what makes you so vehemently argue against coach's significance in a team's wins. When the reality is, you can't really back up your claim with any clear cut data and nor can I for that matter. Might as well give the subject little longer leash.

I know many cases, not just in basketball, where a tool of a coach has had a plethora of talent and failed to win the title by a large margin. So I think your last sentence isn't really valid.


Just to be clear, I do think coaching makes an impact. Like if you put someone incompetent in there, they can tank an organization, same with GM work.

I just think the level of competence across the league (in both positions) is sufficient enough that from a practical perspective no one has an idiot in there and that there isn't a differentiated, sustained advantage from one guy to the next. Situations can change though (in both cases) due to burnout / getting stale etc. It's probably good that you cycle people in these types of positions every five years or so (which most franchises are doing naturally anyway).
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Re: BREAKING NEWS : Billy Donovan hired as next Bulls coach 

Post#753 » by MrFortune3 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:16 am

The Bulls haven't made the playoffs nor been relevant in what seems like forever, yet the complaint is that we may have considered a coach that gets to the playoffs but doesn't win enough series...

Not that I wanted Doc for the Bulls but come on man.
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Re: BREAKING NEWS : Billy Donovan hired as next Bulls coach 

Post#754 » by Red8911 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:32 am

sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/scottie-pippen-slams-bulls-hire-180517968.html

Pippen isn't happy about the Donovan hire. This guy has been salty about everything lately since he’s been fired from what ever role he had on the bulls. He even criticized MJs Last Dance. He isn’t completely wrong about Donovan but he’s still qualified for the job and is a very good hire. Disrespectful comments from Pippen.
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Re: BREAKING NEWS : Billy Donovan hired as next Bulls coach 

Post#755 » by ImSlower » Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:45 am

Boy have there been a lot of former and current players giving bad takes this year. I think an argument could be made that the Bulls should have hired a fresh face to grow with the team and FO - that's what I wanted over the other established coaches that were available prior to Donovan's surprise hire. As much as I think Unseld Jr or Idoku could become championship coaches down the road, I don't think I've seen anyone on this forum adamantly insist that should have been the decision over Donovan, though. If they did, I'd assume they could at least give Donovan respect for getting all those winning seasons despite yearly sweeping changes to his rosters, and simply say that he wasn't a fit for what the new FO's direction should be. Dismissing him as a coach who hasn't proven anything seems very petty.

That said, I've never had much respect for Pippen off the court. Goes back to my time bartending in Chicago and hearing several career guys who loathed him as a customer, I suppose. I can't abide people who treat service industry people badly, and that bone in my craw won't dislodge any time soon.
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Re: BREAKING NEWS : Billy Donovan hired as next Bulls coach 

Post#756 » by RedBulls23 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:57 am

dougthonus wrote:
TheStig wrote:Rivers is a very good coach for a vet team. Those are the groups he gets the most out of. This just isn't the team for him. I think he ends up in Houston or Philly. I think Houston is the best fit for him. They need to go get him and Aaron Baynes.


He's coached vet teams in LA his entire tenure and didn't get the most out of them. Both the lob city era and the Kawhi era generally fell short of expectations (more sharply this year where they lost as overwhelming favorites then with those Paul teams where they lost more toss up series) and he lost 3 series that were playing teams with similar records (within 1 in season win/loss) and 1 where he was the favorite (+10 wins vs opponents) outside of that.

May have been lots of injury issues in the playoffs and other mitigating factors, I didn't look into enough detail to know for sure, but certainly a guy who leads vets well should win these close ones not lose 100% of them.

I think Doc needs a vocal leader on the team, even with vets.
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Re: BREAKING NEWS : Billy Donovan hired as next Bulls coach 

Post#757 » by The Box Office » Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:33 am

Billy Donovan is a good hire for an young upstart team trying to learn how to win. Doc Rivers is a great coach since he has been to the Finals multiple times and won the championship once.

Doc is more accomplished regardless of the melt downs. Doc NEEDS an assistant who knows their x's and o's, similar to what he had with Thibs to get back to the Finals.
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Re: BREAKING NEWS : Billy Donovan hired as next Bulls coach 

Post#758 » by PhilLeotardo » Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:10 pm

Billy Donovan is still a very fresh face in the NBA. He just completed his 5th season as a HC & has only coached for one franchise. He still has a **** ton of upside left to mine & is just getting started in the NBA. His best years are yet to come, and he can absolutely be a title-calibre coach. He’s also coming off of his best year as an NBA HC. The Bulls absolutely lucked the f**k out in the hiring of Donovan, every team without a coach was vying hard for him, and he chose the most high pressure gig out of the lot. He’s going to do great things in Chicago

Pippen is an idiot. All due respect to the player, he was awesome & I’m a fan just like everyone else, but the guy is a complete clown. Donovan was just voted COTY by his peers for f***s sake. Even Scottie has to know what a moron he sounds like. He probably doesn’t even know Donovan personally. “I like him as a person” lmao. I sincerely hope AKEVS never let that guy be a part of the franchise again going forward, especially not when the Bulls inevitably reach the playoffs again under Billy. Pippen is just jealous & bitter that he won’t be a part of the Bulls’ journey back to greatness
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Re: BREAKING NEWS : Billy Donovan hired as next Bulls coach 

Post#759 » by Dominater » Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:12 pm

PhilLeotardo wrote:Billy Donovan is still a very fresh face in the NBA. He just completed his 5th season as a HC & has only coached for one franchise. He still has a **** ton of upside left to mine & is just getting started in the NBA. His best years are yet to come, and he can absolutely be a title-calibre coach. He’s also coming off of his best year as an NBA HC. The Bulls absolutely lucked the f**k out in the hiring of Donovan, every team without a coach was vying hard for him, and he chose the most high pressure gig out of the lot. He’s going to do great things in Chicago

Pippen is an idiot. All due respect to the player, he was awesome & I’m a fan just like everyone else, but the guy is a complete clown. Donovan was just voted COTY by his peers for f***s sake. Even Scottie has to know what a moron he sounds like. He probably doesn’t even know Donovan personally. “I like him as a person” lmao. I sincerely hope AKEVS never let that guy be a part of the franchise again going forward, especially not when the Bulls inevitably reach the playoffs again under Billy. Pippen is just jealous & bitter that he won’t be a part of the Bulls’ journey back to greatness

Yea I love pip the payer but man this guy has some sour grapes, even when he was on the payroll. He was getting paid to do nothing as a "team ambassador", yet hes on ESPN saying that he doesn't know who half the players on the Bulls even are. Like, did he really expect to not be let go after that?
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Re: BREAKING NEWS : Billy Donovan hired as next Bulls coach 

Post#760 » by PhilLeotardo » Thu Oct 1, 2020 5:45 pm

Dominater wrote:
PhilLeotardo wrote:Billy Donovan is still a very fresh face in the NBA. He just completed his 5th season as a HC & has only coached for one franchise. He still has a **** ton of upside left to mine & is just getting started in the NBA. His best years are yet to come, and he can absolutely be a title-calibre coach. He’s also coming off of his best year as an NBA HC. The Bulls absolutely lucked the f**k out in the hiring of Donovan, every team without a coach was vying hard for him, and he chose the most high pressure gig out of the lot. He’s going to do great things in Chicago

Pippen is an idiot. All due respect to the player, he was awesome & I’m a fan just like everyone else, but the guy is a complete clown. Donovan was just voted COTY by his peers for f***s sake. Even Scottie has to know what a moron he sounds like. He probably doesn’t even know Donovan personally. “I like him as a person” lmao. I sincerely hope AKEVS never let that guy be a part of the franchise again going forward, especially not when the Bulls inevitably reach the playoffs again under Billy. Pippen is just jealous & bitter that he won’t be a part of the Bulls’ journey back to greatness

Yea I love pip the payer but man this guy has some sour grapes, even when he was on the payroll. He was getting paid to do nothing as a "team ambassador", yet hes on ESPN saying that he doesn't know who half the players on the Bulls even are. Like, did he really expect to not be let go after that?


He said that about not knowing the players either after he was fired or right after his heat with them began. I think he said that after he was fired, but someone can probably clarify that on here. In any case, He has heat with the reinsbarfs, so he’ll bury whatever they do. They fired him & I don’t see AKEVS bringing someone as toxic/dramatic as Scottie back into the fold. So even if they win a ring “that sucks, they suck, everything sucks” blah blah

Bulls are top 3 in merch sales yet again, without having won anything & being one of the worst teams in the league. Just imagine how good everyone is going to be eating when they’re inevitably back in the plus column. Pippen won’t be a part of that good eatin, I’m sure he’s plenty bitter about it

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