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Highlights from Chicago Bulls bubble

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Re: Highlights from Chicago Bulls bubble 

Post#61 » by TheFinishSniper » Tue Oct 6, 2020 1:05 pm

wonderboy2 wrote:Word is Lavine, Coby, and Markannan has been absolutely balling out in the Mini Camp.

Bulls dont have much quality players for this to mean anything positive. Lavine and Coby have no competition at guard spots and Markkanen has only Thad useful from bigs. Bailing out against Felicio and 3rd stringers like Sato isnt useful or sign of good things.

I am still waiting for news did Lauri managed to post up someone useful in training camp even if it's midget.
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Re: Highlights from Chicago Bulls bubble 

Post#62 » by Just_Bullz » Tue Oct 6, 2020 1:21 pm

FriedRise wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
kodo wrote:
For sure. The 4 is our system spaces the floor, if a defender is on him his job is to keep passing the ball and stay at the 3 point line.
OKC did a much better job of utilizing their 4.
Spoiler:
Image


Gallo was 31 and his OKC season was his 2nd highest career scoring per minute season. I do think Lauri can look forward to a new coaching system.


That also shows better utilization of the 5 too. I'm excited to see Lauri and wcj being unleashed


100% agreed. Stephen Noh wrote in detail how Wendell's utilization can be better under Donovan.

Read on Twitter


If Carter pans out like how he passed the ball during his Duke days consistently, he'll be our Draymond Green.

Edit. sans the triple single of course.
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Re: Highlights from Chicago Bulls bubble 

Post#63 » by TallDude » Tue Oct 6, 2020 2:25 pm

ZOMG wrote:I dunno. This "there's a genius playmaker living inside Wendell Carter" thing is just so baffling. The ONLY evidence people have for any of it is the fact that the occasionally threw some passes in college.

But this is not college. The NBA game moves at a different speed, there's much less time to make decisions and college passing lanes often don't even exist in the League, particularly for guys who work in the cramped confines of the key area.

Hell, the NBA is literally full of players who did amazing stuff in the NCAA and promptly turned into mediocre journeymen in the pros. Why would WCJ be different? Lauri Markkanen was a near-unstoppable scorer at Arizona as a freshman and carried his team to the Sweet 16. But the NBA quickly exposed the problems with his skills and fundamentals.

People act like Carter playing second fiddle to Marvin Bagley at Duke was some kind of a preposterous mistake by Coach K. Like Krzyzewski isn't a living legend who knows more about the game than any of us will ever learn. You know... I'm just guessing that maybe he had his reasons.

Now, Im absolutely certain that Wendell would thrive in a more motion-based offense than what we've seen over the last few years. He would find more passing lanes and would generally make more plays. But that's true for the whole team. When everythig moves and all the players accept the system, good things happen.

But as for making him a designated "offensive hub"? Nah. The biggest problem is that Wendell's jump shot remains a rumor. Until he consistently shows it in actual NBA games, he won't be respected when he's standing in the high post with the ball and the passing lanes will dry up. He'll go back to pivoting like crazy and looking for Zach to hand the ball to.

He also has no ballhandling ability to speak of, which is an absolute killer for an undersized 5 these days. Lauri has rightly gotten a lot of crap for his awkward dribbling in half court, but in the rare instances where Carter has summoned up the courage to put the ball on the floor, he's looked like he was holding a live hand grenade. I think we can very safely say that him actually being an NBA 4 is a ridiculous pipe dream.


Carter biggest problem is that he is not natural 4 (lack of speed and can`t shoot 3`s) but he is too short to be center then Bulls try to go big. Hope he figure it out this season. He still have some skills and is good defender. Hopefully our new coach can help him. Under 20% of 3`s is not actually strech 4.
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Re: Highlights from Chicago Bulls bubble 

Post#64 » by TallDude » Tue Oct 6, 2020 2:34 pm

MrSparkle wrote:I don't think there's gonna be a dramatic upgrade in wins or player stock, but simple facts are that big men get better with a few years under their belt, and Donovan is gonna put them in better position to succeed than Boylen. I don't even expect Gallinari/Adams efficiency and impact, cause those are savvy veterans with plenty playoff experience, but if they can get on somewhat of the right track, I think we'll all stop worrying about their positions, contracts, and potential.

We all know they aren't gonna transform into perennial all-star players - it would be a ridiculous & unprecedented jump based on their 2y sample data. Even the eye test- Lauri would have to shoot out of his mind and Wendell would have to become a low-post scoring machine, which were the skills we expected when we drafted them, but haven't seen any evidence/results. Seeing as their hoped specialties didn't translate, we're banking on them becoming good players, not all-stars.




Actually nobody was happy then Bulls get Lauri. He is far better player what most of u expect. Next season shows how good or bad he really is.But his 2nd year was pretty good for me. 19/9 with limited minutes,To me it is pretty good even veteran player.I wish our team would be so good that Lauri would be role/bench player with 20-25 min per game. Sadly we have not that kind of team. Lauri would be starter most of the NBA teams.
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Re: Highlights from Chicago Bulls bubble 

Post#65 » by dougthonus » Tue Oct 6, 2020 2:38 pm

TallDude wrote:Actually nobody was happy then Bulls get Lauri. He is far better player what most of u expect. Next season shows how good or bad he really is.But his 2nd year was pretty good for me. 19/9 with limited minutes,To me it is pretty good even veteran player.I wish our team would be so good that Lauri would be role/bench player with 20-25 min per game. Sadly we have not that kind of team. Lauri would be starter most of the NBA teams.


Lauri could probably be the 4th best player on a good team. The question is whether he can be the 2nd or 3rd best player on a great team (I don't think anyone holds out hope for best player anymore). That still makes him a good player, starting caliber, quality guy. Just not a guy that you build around or view as part of your core.
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Re: Highlights from Chicago Bulls bubble 

Post#66 » by sco » Tue Oct 6, 2020 3:04 pm

dougthonus wrote:
TallDude wrote:Actually nobody was happy then Bulls get Lauri. He is far better player what most of u expect. Next season shows how good or bad he really is.But his 2nd year was pretty good for me. 19/9 with limited minutes,To me it is pretty good even veteran player.I wish our team would be so good that Lauri would be role/bench player with 20-25 min per game. Sadly we have not that kind of team. Lauri would be starter most of the NBA teams.


Lauri could probably be the 4th best player on a good team. The question is whether he can be the 2nd or 3rd best player on a great team (I don't think anyone holds out hope for best player anymore). That still makes him a good player, starting caliber, quality guy. Just not a guy that you build around or view as part of your core.

I agree, but will say it a little differently. Defense aside, but I think he has shown flashes of the ability to defend at a NBA level. On offense he either needs to develop the ability to create his own shot on offense, a la Durant or AD and become a second option scorer, OR he needs to become more efficient with his shooting (esp. 3pt shooting) on fewer shot attempts per game (and shoot over smaller players in so doing).
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Re: Highlights from Chicago Bulls bubble 

Post#67 » by dougthonus » Tue Oct 6, 2020 3:11 pm

sco wrote:I agree, but will say it a little differently. Defense aside, but I think he has shown flashes of the ability to defend at a NBA level. On offense he either needs to develop the ability to create his own shot on offense, a la Durant or AD and become a second option scorer, OR he needs to become more efficient with his shooting (esp. 3pt shooting) on fewer shot attempts per game (and shoot over smaller players in so doing).


I agree.

You either need to be a creator or you need to be high efficiency. He's somewhere in between, kind of like Luol Deng wasn't a creator but he could still get you quite a few points. I think Lauri's a bit like that. He can't create off the dribble, but he can create if someone else does enough work to get him a bit of space, so he's not just a stand still shooter. With just a bit of opening he can make quite a bit happen still.
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Re: Highlights from Chicago Bulls bubble 

Post#68 » by ATRAIN53 » Tue Oct 6, 2020 3:17 pm

TallDude wrote:Carter biggest problem is that he is not natural 4 (lack of speed and can`t shoot 3`s) but he is too short to be center then Bulls try to go big. Hope he figure it out this season. He still have some skills and is good defender. Hopefully our new coach can help him. Under 20% of 3`s is not actually strech 4.


I think WCJ biggest problem is his attitude and bad body language.
It turns me off watching him.

Not even one block or steal per game for a lottery pick we really counted on is pathetic.
He's our leading rebounder and he's not even 10 boards a game.
This should be easy money for him with this roster, feast on the boards, crash them, get some put back dunks.

This should be a huge year for him. We need it and I want to like him but I like Gafford's motor more.
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Re: Highlights from Chicago Bulls bubble 

Post#69 » by sco » Tue Oct 6, 2020 3:53 pm

dougthonus wrote:
sco wrote:I agree, but will say it a little differently. Defense aside, but I think he has shown flashes of the ability to defend at a NBA level. On offense he either needs to develop the ability to create his own shot on offense, a la Durant or AD and become a second option scorer, OR he needs to become more efficient with his shooting (esp. 3pt shooting) on fewer shot attempts per game (and shoot over smaller players in so doing).


I agree.

You either need to be a creator or you need to be high efficiency. He's somewhere in between, kind of like Luol Deng wasn't a creator but he could still get you quite a few points. I think Lauri's a bit like that. He can't create off the dribble, but he can create if someone else does enough work to get him a bit of space, so he's not just a stand still shooter. With just a bit of opening he can make quite a bit happen still.

Actually, Deng is an interesting example. IMO, at his peak, he was looked to as a second scoring option but never really got there due to his limited ball handling and lack of 3pt range.
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Re: Highlights from Chicago Bulls bubble 

Post#70 » by othawhitemeat » Tue Oct 6, 2020 4:21 pm

sco wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
TallDude wrote:Actually nobody was happy then Bulls get Lauri. He is far better player what most of u expect. Next season shows how good or bad he really is.But his 2nd year was pretty good for me. 19/9 with limited minutes,To me it is pretty good even veteran player.I wish our team would be so good that Lauri would be role/bench player with 20-25 min per game. Sadly we have not that kind of team. Lauri would be starter most of the NBA teams.


Lauri could probably be the 4th best player on a good team. The question is whether he can be the 2nd or 3rd best player on a great team (I don't think anyone holds out hope for best player anymore). That still makes him a good player, starting caliber, quality guy. Just not a guy that you build around or view as part of your core.

I agree, but will say it a little differently. Defense aside, but I think he has shown flashes of the ability to defend at a NBA level. On offense he either needs to develop the ability to create his own shot on offense, a la Durant or AD and become a second option scorer, OR he needs to become more efficient with his shooting (esp. 3pt shooting) on fewer shot attempts per game (and shoot over smaller players in so doing).


I agree with both, but think the talent is there and is reason unless blown away with offer, I would not trade him. Maybe he is just a 4th scoring option on a good team. However, look at it like this. If Heat or Lakers had Lauri, for the Heat with Dragic out, he would probably be their 2nd scoring option and with Lakers, their 3rd and ahead of Kuzma. He has that unique talent that besides shooting, can he develop a mid-range post move, or dribble off a 3 point shot if defenders are going full speed at him? The key is consistency and not being passive. However, outside of Coby/Zach creating shots when having the ball, I don't really know what our offense was. I truly think with right coaching, Lauri could be a fringe all star type in the East at least, or as is, an enigma that is not consistent enough. I guess I would just like to see a good coach give him a try unless blown away by an offer. I mean his rookie year we were talking about him being the 3rd best rookie behind Mitchell and Tatum with mentions of DeArron Fox.
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Re: Highlights from Chicago Bulls bubble 

Post#71 » by drosereturn » Tue Oct 6, 2020 4:36 pm

TallDude wrote:
Actually nobody was happy then Bulls get Lauri. He is far better player what most of u expect. Next season shows how good or bad he really is.But his 2nd year was pretty good for me. 19/9 with limited minutes,To me it is pretty good even veteran player.I wish our team would be so good that Lauri would be role/bench player with 20-25 min per game. Sadly we have not that kind of team. Lauri would be starter most of the NBA teams.


Nobody in the Bulls care about Lauri except AK and Billy. Like he is pissed hes getting treated like a bench player he would have to get 20 shots a game minimum to placate him to a number 2 role on a playoff team. Just give him the number 1 option until they flip other assets into a better star than Lauri.
AK and Billy need to put pressure on Sato, White, Lavine to dump the ball to Lauri first and let him playmake.



TallDude wrote:Carter biggest problem is that he is not natural 4 (lack of speed and can`t shoot 3`s) but he is too short to be center then Bulls try to go big. Hope he figure it out this season. He still have some skills and is good defender. Hopefully our new coach can help him. Under 20% of 3`s is not actually strech 4.


His skills are really useless for the Bulls he really didnt complement Lauri at all. Not a true pf nor center and always been stuck since Duke not really even beating off a crappy Bagley who seems out of the league. Even this mysterious draymond green ability he has is not good because I dont really want him touching the ball unless for dunks/open mid range jumper.
Even if he was Draymond, he would get exposed like last yrs GSW, where teams would dare him to shoot and GSW wasnt that worse than the Bulls roster.
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Re: Highlights from Chicago Bulls bubble 

Post#72 » by BullsFTW » Tue Oct 6, 2020 7:20 pm

Just_Bullz wrote:
FriedRise wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
That also shows better utilization of the 5 too. I'm excited to see Lauri and wcj being unleashed


100% agreed. Stephen Noh wrote in detail how Wendell's utilization can be better under Donovan.

Read on Twitter


If Carter pans out like how he passed the ball during his Duke days consistently, he'll be our Draymond Green.

Edit. sans the triple single of course.

Hopefully he can produce like Bam
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Re: Highlights from Chicago Bulls bubble 

Post#73 » by TeamMan » Tue Oct 6, 2020 7:31 pm

othawhitemeat wrote:
sco wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
Lauri could probably be the 4th best player on a good team. The question is whether he can be the 2nd or 3rd best player on a great team (I don't think anyone holds out hope for best player anymore). That still makes him a good player, starting caliber, quality guy. Just not a guy that you build around or view as part of your core.

I agree, but will say it a little differently. Defense aside, but I think he has shown flashes of the ability to defend at a NBA level. On offense he either needs to develop the ability to create his own shot on offense, a la Durant or AD and become a second option scorer, OR he needs to become more efficient with his shooting (esp. 3pt shooting) on fewer shot attempts per game (and shoot over smaller players in so doing).


I agree with both, but think the talent is there and is reason unless blown away with offer, I would not trade him. Maybe he is just a 4th scoring option on a good team. However, look at it like this. If Heat or Lakers had Lauri, for the Heat with Dragic out, he would probably be their 2nd scoring option and with Lakers, their 3rd and ahead of Kuzma. He has that unique talent that besides shooting, can he develop a mid-range post move, or dribble off a 3 point shot if defenders are going full speed at him? The key is consistency and not being passive. However, outside of Coby/Zach creating shots when having the ball, I don't really know what our offense was. I truly think with right coaching, Lauri could be a fringe all star type in the East at least, or as is, an enigma that is not consistent enough. I guess I would just like to see a good coach give him a try unless blown away by an offer. I mean his rookie year we were talking about him being the 3rd best rookie behind Mitchell and Tatum with mentions of DeArron Fox.

This post reminds me of the quotes from the "Eversley: "This is not a rebuild"" thread.

From his quotes I got the impression he doesn't intend to trad any of our young core until after Donovan ("...right coach...") has had a chance to work with all of them and he can look at the results.

After all, one of the reasons that Boylen was fired was because they didn't think that he was the right coach for our young talent.

He specifically spoke about next summer (after OPJ's contract expires) as
"then having options"
. So, it looks like he wants to take all of next season to evaluate the players and see how they respond to Donovan's coaching.

===================
As far as Lauri is concerned, it would be very interesting to see how he would play on a team with a player like Jimmy Butler that's a threat to put up a triple-double on any given night. With a player like JImmy, Lauri would get a lot more passes where he is unguarded (either under the basket or out at the 3P line).

IMO having to create his own shot every position is not Lauri's game.
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Re: Highlights from Chicago Bulls bubble 

Post#74 » by dougthonus » Tue Oct 6, 2020 7:58 pm

TeamMan wrote:As far as Lauri is concerned, it would be very interesting to see how he would play on a team with a player like Jimmy Butler that's a threat to put up a triple-double on any given night. With a player like JImmy, Lauri would get a lot more passes where he is unguarded (either under the basket or out at the 3P line).

IMO having to create his own shot every position is not Lauri's game.


Lauri already gets most of his passes when he's unguarded and isn't asked to create his own shot. The vast majority of his three point looks last year were qualified as open or wide open. Part of his complaint was the exact opposite of this, that he doesn't want to be a guy getting kick outs and wants to be more involved.

Butler's a really weird guy to bring up in that circumstance, probably not a whole lot better than LaVine really, and not a guy that could have ever played with Lauri since Lauri was part of the goods that came trading him out.
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Re: Highlights from Chicago Bulls bubble 

Post#75 » by TeamMan » Wed Oct 7, 2020 12:41 am

dougthonus wrote:
TeamMan wrote:As far as Lauri is concerned, it would be very interesting to see how he would play on a team with a player like Jimmy Butler that's a threat to put up a triple-double on any given night. With a player like JImmy, Lauri would get a lot more passes where he is unguarded (either under the basket or out at the 3P line).

IMO having to create his own shot every position is not Lauri's game.


Lauri already gets most of his passes when he's unguarded and isn't asked to create his own shot. The vast majority of his three point looks last year were qualified as open or wide open. Part of his complaint was the exact opposite of this, that he doesn't want to be a guy getting kick outs and wants to be more involved.

Butler's a really weird guy to bring up in that circumstance, probably not a whole lot better than LaVine really, and not a guy that could have ever played with Lauri since Lauri was part of the goods that came trading him out.

I think that "ironic" is a better word than "weird".

I only mention Butler because you can see the effect that he has while playing with a group of young players that are talented, but not All Stars (like LeBron has with AD).

I cannot honestly say that LaVine is a threat to put up a triple-double "on any given night". (I checked, and it appears that he's never had one in the NBA.)

Possibly, if he had (most likely will have) Coby with him in the starting lineup, then he'd get a lot more assists. It's actually something that I'm looking forward to next season.

==========================
Regarding Lauri, I was indirectly responding to SCO's post (that was included in my previous post) about Lauri creating his own shot. But I think that SCO's 2nd option "...becoming more efficient..." is achievable.

sco wrote:I agree, but will say it a little differently. Defense aside, but I think he has shown flashes of the ability to defend at a NBA level. On offense he either needs to develop the ability to create his own shot on offense, a la Durant or AD and become a second option scorer, OR he needs to become more efficient with his shooting (esp. 3pt shooting) on fewer shot attempts per game (and shoot over smaller players in so doing).
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Re: Highlights from Chicago Bulls bubble 

Post#76 » by Dez » Wed Oct 7, 2020 2:00 am

drosereturn wrote:
TallDude wrote:
Actually nobody was happy then Bulls get Lauri. He is far better player what most of u expect. Next season shows how good or bad he really is.But his 2nd year was pretty good for me. 19/9 with limited minutes,To me it is pretty good even veteran player.I wish our team would be so good that Lauri would be role/bench player with 20-25 min per game. Sadly we have not that kind of team. Lauri would be starter most of the NBA teams.


Nobody in the Bulls care about Lauri except AK and Billy. Like he is pissed hes getting treated like a bench player he would have to get 20 shots a game minimum to placate him to a number 2 role on a playoff team. Just give him the number 1 option until they flip other assets into a better star than Lauri.
AK and Billy need to put pressure on Sato, White, Lavine to dump the ball to Lauri first and let him playmake


Lauri can't playmake, he can't even create offense for himself. That would lead the Bulls to single digits in the win column next season, Lauri isn't anywhere near the player you're trying to make people believe he is.

You don't know how AK and Donovan view Markkanen so why pretend?
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Re: Highlights from Chicago Bulls bubble 

Post#77 » by StunnerKO » Wed Oct 7, 2020 5:26 am

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Re: Highlights from Chicago Bulls bubble 

Post#78 » by ZOMG » Wed Oct 7, 2020 5:45 am

dougthonus wrote:
TeamMan wrote:As far as Lauri is concerned, it would be very interesting to see how he would play on a team with a player like Jimmy Butler that's a threat to put up a triple-double on any given night. With a player like JImmy, Lauri would get a lot more passes where he is unguarded (either under the basket or out at the 3P line).

IMO having to create his own shot every position is not Lauri's game.


Lauri already gets most of his passes when he's unguarded and isn't asked to create his own shot. The vast majority of his three point looks last year were qualified as open or wide open. Part of his complaint was the exact opposite of this, that he doesn't want to be a guy getting kick outs and wants to be more involved.

Butler's a really weird guy to bring up in that circumstance, probably not a whole lot better than LaVine really, and not a guy that could have ever played with Lauri since Lauri was part of the goods that came trading him out.


Weird take. You can be damn sure that Lauri has always been under orders from both Fred and Boylen to try to score when he sees daylight. A guy who can shoot but refuses to do so is a very bad thing to have on your team in the modern NBA. Sure, we all know this didn't work like it was supposed to because there was so little natural ball movement - Markkanen often didn't see the rock for a long while so when he got it, he seemed hellbent on putting a shot up. He knew that he'd look even worse if he just handed the ball off again. Passive. Avoiding responsibility.

Also, I'll use the exact same argument people always trot out in defense of Zach - who's he gonna pass to out there? There's been numerous lineups where Lauri and LaVine are the only two legit scoring options. So Lauri drives, draws the defense... and surveys his passing options. Carter clogging the lane looking for a rebound, a hobbled Porter out on the perimeter with a dude glued to his chest, Arci standing near midcourt, not doing much of anything. Yeah, I think he's gonna put a shot up.
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Re: Highlights from Chicago Bulls bubble 

Post#79 » by ZOMG » Wed Oct 7, 2020 5:48 am

Just_Bullz wrote:
FriedRise wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
That also shows better utilization of the 5 too. I'm excited to see Lauri and wcj being unleashed


100% agreed. Stephen Noh wrote in detail how Wendell's utilization can be better under Donovan.

Read on Twitter


If Carter pans out like how he passed the ball during his Duke days consistently, he'll be our Draymond Green.

Edit. sans the triple single of course.


What? Draymond Green is a great ballhandler. He can even do PG duty if he really needs to.

Wendell Carter looks like a deer in the headlights whenever he actually has to dribble.
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Re: Highlights from Chicago Bulls bubble 

Post#80 » by Dez » Wed Oct 7, 2020 5:58 am

ZOMG wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
TeamMan wrote:As far as Lauri is concerned, it would be very interesting to see how he would play on a team with a player like Jimmy Butler that's a threat to put up a triple-double on any given night. With a player like JImmy, Lauri would get a lot more passes where he is unguarded (either under the basket or out at the 3P line).

IMO having to create his own shot every position is not Lauri's game.


Lauri already gets most of his passes when he's unguarded and isn't asked to create his own shot. The vast majority of his three point looks last year were qualified as open or wide open. Part of his complaint was the exact opposite of this, that he doesn't want to be a guy getting kick outs and wants to be more involved.

Butler's a really weird guy to bring up in that circumstance, probably not a whole lot better than LaVine really, and not a guy that could have ever played with Lauri since Lauri was part of the goods that came trading him out.


Weird take. You can be damn sure that Lauri has always been under orders from both Fred and Boylen to try to score when he sees daylight. A guy who can shoot but refuses to do so is a very bad thing to have on your team in the modern NBA. Sure, we all know this didn't work like it was supposed to because there was so little natural ball movement - Markkanen often didn't see the rock for a long while so when he got it, he seemed hellbent on putting a shot up. He knew that he'd look even worse if he just handed the ball off again. Passive. Avoiding responsibility.

Also, I'll use the exact same argument people always trot out in defense of Zach - who's he gonna pass to out there? There's been numerous lineups where Lauri and LaVine are the only two legit scoring options. So Lauri drives, draws the defense... and surveys his passing options. Carter clogging the lane looking for a rebound, a hobbled Porter out on the perimeter with a dude glued to his chest, Arci standing near midcourt, not doing much of anything. Yeah, I think he's gonna put a shot up.


Except he doesn't do this, he's passive and weak.

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