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Free Agent Targets

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Re: Free Agent Targets 

Post#21 » by rtblues » Sun Oct 4, 2020 10:03 am

TheSuzerain wrote:
jacoby1us wrote:This is a sad list.

We've got no money to spend. Need to hunt for bargains.

I believe that the Bulls will find a guy in the undrafted bunch, who will get an invite to camp, and stick.
There's going to be some talent among the undrafted, and cheap too*. Betting AK/ME can sniff that guy out.
(*Duncan Robinson, undrafted, 24 y.o.)

I also don't believe that this management is "married" to this roster, and that virtually anyone is moveable.
K.C. Johnson said it best on a Bulls Talk Podcast, "Arturas Karnisovas didn't come here to fall in love with this roster."
Bet'cha yo' ass he didn't!
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Re: Free Agent Targets 

Post#22 » by UcanUwill » Sun Oct 4, 2020 11:13 am

Little Nathan wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:Any undrafted international veterans on the market?

I heard that Facu Campazzo might come over a while back. Don't know if that's still true. The guy is a basketball genius, but already pretty old and very small.


If Campazzo signs with Timberwolves as rumored, I will be pissed, this guy should be on a winning team right now. Wouldnt even mind him on the Bulls, tho Bulls sucked as of late of course, but I feel with few veterans lika Campazzo and preferably a big to cut all of terrible Felicio minutes, and we are talking about a Play off team in the east.
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Re: Free Agent Targets 

Post#23 » by TheSuzerain » Sun Oct 4, 2020 1:10 pm

TheStig wrote:I don't think they eat into their cap space with a MLE deal. I think they keep flexibility. If they can get a guy they like on a 1 year MLE deal they do it for a guy like Morris/Crowder/Harris/Forbes but otherwise they just bank it and get someone cheaper on the vet min.

We should/could have plenty of cap space next offseason even if we use our MLE this year.

And we should use it. Need to give AK as many chances as we can to add his guys.
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Re: Free Agent Targets 

Post#24 » by sco » Sun Oct 4, 2020 1:22 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
TheStig wrote:I don't think they eat into their cap space with a MLE deal. I think they keep flexibility. If they can get a guy they like on a 1 year MLE deal they do it for a guy like Morris/Crowder/Harris/Forbes but otherwise they just bank it and get someone cheaper on the vet min.

We should/could have plenty of cap space next offseason even if we use our MLE this year.

And we should use it. Need to give AK as many chances as we can to add his guys.

My MLE guys are:
Crowder
Saric (Lauri suckage/trade insurance)
Jones Jr
Giles (Lauri suckage/trade insurance)
Harkless
Noell (I'd look to trade WCJ if we got him)
Wood (I'd look to trade WCJ if we got him)
Cauley-Stein (I'd look to trade WCJ if we got him)
Jackson
Korkmaz

I'd say Bertrans, Harris and Gallo too, but I think they'll cost more than MLE.
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Re: Free Agent Targets 

Post#25 » by dougthonus » Sun Oct 4, 2020 1:22 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:We're mostly laser-focused on the draft, but I thought it good to have a thread to discuss some potential Free Agent targets (I apologize in advance to the Grizzlies).

Barring something unexpected, it seems to me we're going to have the non-taxpayer Mid Level Exception with which to sign guys. So that's about $9 million to play with.

Who not to target? - Put me down as completely uninterested in paying market prices for established veteran role players. Are we pleased with signing Thad Young and Sato? No, we are not. Don't do it again. If you want veterans in the locker room, then just give someone really old a minimum contract (e.g. Jared Dudley).

Who to target? - I would be after young players who can be had cheaply and on contracts with solid team-control (e.g. team options, long term at low salary, etc.)


First, excellent post, and well thought out list of guys.

I would give you the counterpoint, don't spend any money. "We have to spend the money" is the reason we ended up with Wade and Rondo instead of Butler on a cheap deal and room to sign 2 max FAs the next off-season, or if you do spend the money, don't go out past one year on guys.

Hope instead that Donovan can get this mix of players to play well together. Sato/Thad were disappointments last year, but would it shock you if they played better this year coming up?

I'd probably roll with what we have, hope coaching was a huge part of the problem and that the team stays healthier, see if there are any interesting trades at the deadline (or off-season) and if not just enter net off season with hopefully a better image and 1.5 max contract slots.

If we do gamble on multiple years with guys, I agree getting guys who will give team options or nonguaranteed years and are paid at a rate that assumes you can develop them and is beyond what they've proven seems like a good option.
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Re: Free Agent Targets 

Post#26 » by TheStig » Sun Oct 4, 2020 1:36 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
TheStig wrote:I don't think they eat into their cap space with a MLE deal. I think they keep flexibility. If they can get a guy they like on a 1 year MLE deal they do it for a guy like Morris/Crowder/Harris/Forbes but otherwise they just bank it and get someone cheaper on the vet min.

We should/could have plenty of cap space next offseason even if we use our MLE this year.

And we should use it. Need to give AK as many chances as we can to add his guys.

I don't think we should unless we believe we're getting a good starter. Which we won't.
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Re: Free Agent Targets 

Post#27 » by dougthonus » Sun Oct 4, 2020 3:19 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:We should/could have plenty of cap space next offseason even if we use our MLE this year.

And we should use it. Need to give AK as many chances as we can to add his guys.


If you want to try and position yourself for multiple max guys, you should not use it. That seems to be the way several teams have been built recently. That said, you'd probably have to get one guy through signing and another guy via S&T or straight up trade and having the MLE may not inhibit you so much.

I would use the cap space if you think there is a value. In bad FA years, the right answer is often "don't sign anyone" or at least "don't sign anyone long term".
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Re: Free Agent Targets 

Post#28 » by TheSuzerain » Sun Oct 4, 2020 3:26 pm

dougthonus wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:We're mostly laser-focused on the draft, but I thought it good to have a thread to discuss some potential Free Agent targets (I apologize in advance to the Grizzlies).

Barring something unexpected, it seems to me we're going to have the non-taxpayer Mid Level Exception with which to sign guys. So that's about $9 million to play with.

Who not to target? - Put me down as completely uninterested in paying market prices for established veteran role players. Are we pleased with signing Thad Young and Sato? No, we are not. Don't do it again. If you want veterans in the locker room, then just give someone really old a minimum contract (e.g. Jared Dudley).

Who to target? - I would be after young players who can be had cheaply and on contracts with solid team-control (e.g. team options, long term at low salary, etc.)


First excellent post, and well thought out list of guys.

I would give you the counterpoint, don't spend any money. "We have to spend the money" is the reason we ended up with Wade and Rondo instead of Butler on a cheap deal and room to sign 2 max FAs the next off-season, or if you do spend the money, don't go out past one year on guys.

Hope instead that Donovan can get this mix of players to play well together. Sato/Thad were disappointments last year, but would it shock you if they played better this year coming up?

I'd probably roll with what we have, hope coaching was a huge part of the problem and that the team stays healthier, see if there are any interesting trades at the deadline (or off-season) and if not just enter net off season with hopefully a better image and 1.5 max contract slots.

If we do gamble on multiple years with guys, I agree getting guys who will give team options or nonguaranteed years and are paid at a rate that assumes you can develop them and is beyond what they've proven seems like a good option.

I actually fully expect Sato and Thad to play better this coming year (at least Sato, Thad might just be washed). But even so they have no real value to us at all as they're going to expire before we build a worthwhile team.

If the choice is signing an established veteran on a Full MLE or signing nobody, then I am completely onboard with signing nobody.

We need to be hunting for value. That means guys who outplay their salary. This is basically what I'm proposing here. I honestly feel like you could land several guys on this list for $2-$3 million a year which is basically nothing (not to mention their contracts could be structured in such a way with unguaranteed money and team options that we can easily cut bait should they not pan out).

The dream is Duncan Robinson. You land a guy for literally nothing, he becomes a very good role player, and then you have him on a dirt cheap contract for a couple years and maybe even have him as an RFA after that. Now, there's no guarantee that we can replicate that level of success that the Heat have had with Robinson/Nunn, but it's definitely something we should be shooting for. Again, if we're serious about transforming the organization into a place for development, then we should be taking swings on players like this.

If roster spots are an issue, just cut Felicio, Kornet, and maybe Arci as their upside is non-existent.
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Re: Free Agent Targets 

Post#29 » by TheSuzerain » Sun Oct 4, 2020 3:32 pm

Term for guys with established market value's can be scary/detrimental to a team.

Term for cheap, unproven players on the other hand, is a bit of a 'weapon' for a team. Because the offers available to a guy like a Frank Mason are extremely cheap/limited, you can basically sign them up for indentured servitude contracts (to the extent we can use that phrase for guys that would still be making $1 million+).

Everyone knows that max contracts are a way to make good signings because there's an arbitrary cap placed on how much they can be paid. I would argue the other place on the spectrum you can find value is the cheapest players where teams are able to aggressively dictate terms.

The worst spot by far is signing non-max veterans (Thad/Sato). It's just not a good idea.
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Re: Free Agent Targets 

Post#30 » by TheStig » Sun Oct 4, 2020 3:55 pm

dougthonus wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:We should/could have plenty of cap space next offseason even if we use our MLE this year.

And we should use it. Need to give AK as many chances as we can to add his guys.


If you want to try and position yourself for multiple max guys, you should not use it. That seems to be the way several teams have been built recently. That said, you'd probably have to get one guy through signing and another guy via S&T or straight up trade and having the MLE may not inhibit you so much.

I would use the cap space if you think there is a value. In bad FA years, the right answer is often "don't sign anyone" or at least "don't sign anyone long term".

That should be the goal. Develop the young guys, look respectable, deal Young and Sato and get in place for 2 max deals.
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Re: Free Agent Targets 

Post#31 » by dougthonus » Sun Oct 4, 2020 3:59 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:We need to be hunting for value. That means guys who outplay their salary. This is basically what I'm proposing here. I honestly feel like you could land several guys on this list for $2-$3 million a year which is basically nothing (not to mention their contracts could be structured in such a way with unguaranteed money and team options that we can easily cut bait should they not pan out).

The dream is Duncan Robinson. You land a guy for literally nothing, he becomes a very good role player, and then you have him on a dirt cheap contract for a couple years and maybe even have him as an RFA after that. Now, there's no guarantee that we can replicate that level of success that the Heat have had with Robinson/Nunn, but it's definitely something we should be shooting for. Again, if we're serious about transforming the organization into a place for development, then we should be taking swings on players like this.

If roster spots are an issue, just cut Felicio, Kornet, and maybe Arci as their upside is non-existent.


I agree with this in theory, but the idea of just "sign someone who will end up being really good before anyone else realizes it for very cheap" is just ridiculously hard to execute. If we can pull that off, by all means, we should pull that off. If we have a strong feeling about a guy then we should chase him.

There's no reason that Arci or Kornet couldn't have been the next Duncan Robinson in terms of guys who vastly outplayed their deals though. No one looked at Duncan Robinson or Kendrick Nunn and said here's two guys who can be studs, but Kornett/Arci could have been two guys that just shot lights out from 3 and ended up with great value just like those two.

It didn't work out obviously, and if we have some feeling on whom the next Robinson is then we should definitely chase him. I'm not sure we're going to have that feeling on anyone though.
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Re: Free Agent Targets 

Post#32 » by dougthonus » Sun Oct 4, 2020 4:09 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:Term for guys with established market value's can be scary/detrimental to a team.

Term for cheap, unproven players on the other hand, is a bit of a 'weapon' for a team. Because the offers available to a guy like a Frank Mason are extremely cheap/limited, you can basically sign them up for indentured servitude contracts (to the extent we can use that phrase for guys that would still be making $1 million+).

Everyone knows that max contracts are a way to make good signings because there's an arbitrary cap placed on how much they can be paid. I would argue the other place on the spectrum you can find value is the cheapest players where teams are able to aggressively dictate terms.

The worst spot by far is signing non-max veterans (Thad/Sato). It's just not a good idea.


I agree that signing max guys and low end guys is the most likely way to generate surplus value contractually, but the second of those things also makes you most likely to have a bad roster.

The other problem is that if you are signing cheap unproven players you are stuck either going four years on guys that may literally be worth nothing OR you have them on a cheap deal for 1-2 years then they become the Thad/Sato guy after that and you don't ever appreciate that value over a long enough period of time for it to be relevant.

In an ideal world, you're just great at melding talent to your system and you can simply always make these 1-3M type guys work and be valuable in your system even if they aren't that valuable overall.
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Re: Free Agent Targets 

Post#33 » by gobullschi » Sun Oct 4, 2020 4:23 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:Term for guys with established market value's can be scary/detrimental to a team.

Term for cheap, unproven players on the other hand, is a bit of a 'weapon' for a team. Because the offers available to a guy like a Frank Mason are extremely cheap/limited, you can basically sign them up for indentured servitude contracts (to the extent we can use that phrase for guys that would still be making $1 million+).

Everyone knows that max contracts are a way to make good signings because there's an arbitrary cap placed on how much they can be paid. I would argue the other place on the spectrum you can find value is the cheapest players where teams are able to aggressively dictate terms.

The worst spot by far is signing non-max veterans (Thad/Sato). It's just not a good idea.


I liked how their deals had non-guarantees built into them. The way they were structured gives the Bulls the opportunity to either sign a max free agent OR trade them to a team that needs to create room for a max free agent. It was a creative way to give the team flexibility and a potential trade asset.

I do agree that keeping max cap space is important, but in this case, they did properly structure their contracts based on the teams timeline.

IMO, the biggest question is what to do with Kris Dunn. They need to find a way to either sign him without impacting max cap space or explore S&T opportunities, instead of losing him for nothing.
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Re: Free Agent Targets 

Post#34 » by nitetrain8603 » Sun Oct 4, 2020 4:55 pm

If only we didn't have that stupid OPJ contract that I regretted the moment he got traded to the Bulls (of course they were going to extend him), we would be able to get someone better.

With that stated, Melton, Josh Jackson and Nerlens Noel all interest me.
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Re: Free Agent Targets 

Post#35 » by Chi town » Sun Oct 4, 2020 6:50 pm

No way Duncan Robinson doesn’t get PAID.

I think Thad and Sato will be a lot better this season but still not worth their contracts. I’d take one bad one year deal with more money just to get of their future 3rd year option money.

I’d rather pay cheap deals and play Val and Dunn then play and pay Thad and Sato.

If we bring everyone back and draft there won’t be enough roster spots.
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Re: Free Agent Targets 

Post#36 » by sco » Sun Oct 4, 2020 9:45 pm

Chi town wrote:No way Duncan Robinson doesn’t get PAID.

I think Thad and Sato will be a lot better this season but still not worth their contracts. I’d take one bad one year deal with more money just to get of their future 3rd year option money.

I’d rather pay cheap deals and play Val and Dunn then play and pay Thad and Sato.

If we bring everyone back and draft there won’t be enough roster spots.

What is the most he can get?
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Re: Free Agent Targets 

Post#37 » by RoseTheFuture22 » Mon Oct 5, 2020 1:14 am

I think what the team needs the most is versatility on the wing or small ball 5. No more huge centers, no more point guards. Kornet and Felicio are waste of roster spots and at least 1 of Shaq, Dunn, or Arci need to go.

I like Derrick Jones a lot too. Bogdanovic and Hernangomez are restricted free agent but I think they could be sneaky good. Bazemore, Mo Harkless, Hollis-Jefferson, Glenn Robinson, Alec Burks could be decent bench fliers. I wouldn't mind Harrell or Crowder on a big 1 year deal either
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Re: Free Agent Targets 

Post#38 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Oct 5, 2020 2:11 pm

sco wrote:
Chi town wrote:No way Duncan Robinson doesn’t get PAID.

I think Thad and Sato will be a lot better this season but still not worth their contracts. I’d take one bad one year deal with more money just to get of their future 3rd year option money.

I’d rather pay cheap deals and play Val and Dunn then play and pay Thad and Sato.

If we bring everyone back and draft there won’t be enough roster spots.

What is the most he can get?

He's not a FA until next offseason. 1 year left at the minimum in Miami.
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Re: Free Agent Targets 

Post#39 » by Michael Jackson » Tue Oct 6, 2020 1:58 am

nitetrain8603 wrote:If only we didn't have that stupid OPJ contract that I regretted the moment he got traded to the Bulls (of course they were going to extend him), we would be able to get someone better.

With that stated, Melton, Josh Jackson and Nerlens Noel all interest me.



No not really. This class was always going to be weak and it was timed to free up capspace for next year. So him opting in really didn’t do much damage at all. Maybe saved the team from spending bad money on an a free agent this season ruining cap for next.
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Re: Free Agent Targets 

Post#40 » by ThreeMileAllan » Tue Oct 6, 2020 3:14 am

Can we sticky this?

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