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Zach and Coby

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Zach and Coby 

Post#1 » by The Chosen one » Wed Oct 7, 2020 4:04 pm

Hi everyone, this is my first post on this board. I know most Chicago fans are very excited about the young talent on the Bulls, especially Zach and Coby. What do you guys think of the backcourt? What do you all think is their ceiling together? I think they will be dynamic, both being able to score over 20 points a game with playmaking duties split between them. I definitely believe Coby will be the point guard of the future for the bulls! Lavine will be an Allstar next season. I loved that he improved his defense and playmaking last season. I think with a healthy team Lavine playmaking will improve and be even better this year.
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Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#2 » by TheFinishSniper » Wed Oct 7, 2020 4:27 pm

The Chosen one wrote:Hi everyone, this is my first post on this board. I know most Chicago fans are very excited about the young talent on the Bulls, especially Zach and Coby. What do you guys think of the backcourt? What do you all think is their ceiling together? I think they will be dynamic, both being able to score over 20 points a game with playmaking duties split between them. I definitely believe Coby will be the point guard of the future for the bulls! Lavine will be an Allstar next season. I loved that he improved his defense and playmaking last season. I think with a healthy team Lavine playmaking will improve and be even better this year.

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Good for you to believe that.
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Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#3 » by The Chosen one » Wed Oct 7, 2020 4:45 pm

TheFinishSniper wrote:
The Chosen one wrote:Hi everyone, this is my first post on this board. I know most Chicago fans are very excited about the young talent on the Bulls, especially Zach and Coby. What do you guys think of the backcourt? What do you all think is their ceiling together? I think they will be dynamic, both being able to score over 20 points a game with playmaking duties split between them. I definitely believe Coby will be the point guard of the future for the bulls! Lavine will be an Allstar next season. I loved that he improved his defense and playmaking last season. I think with a healthy team Lavine playmaking will improve and be even better this year.

Image

Good for you to believe that.

Bulls have nice young talent with Lavine, White, Lauri, and Carter. Gafford looks promising, and OPJ is only 26. The bulls are talented they just need to stay healthy.
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Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#4 » by ImSlower » Wed Oct 7, 2020 4:51 pm

The Chosen one wrote:Hi everyone, this is my first post on this board. I know most Chicago fans are very excited about the young talent on the Bulls, especially Zach and Coby. What do you guys think of the backcourt? What do you all think is their ceiling together? I think they will be dynamic, both being able to score over 20 points a game with playmaking duties split between them. I definitely believe Coby will be the point guard of the future for the bulls! Lavine will be an Allstar next season. I loved that he improved his defense and playmaking last season. I think with a healthy team Lavine playmaking will improve and be even better this year.


Welcome! The board has seen better days, as the last 5 disappointing years have driven off some really superb posters, but it's still one of the best online communities I run around in. There are a bunch of regulars here who have forgotten more about basketball than I've ever known. Stick around, there's a lot more optimism around now with the new front office, coach, and #4 pick (in a down draft alas). I can guarantee that the days before draft night will be a lot of fun around here, and absolute bedlam while we wait for spoiler tweets on our pick.

Coby and Zach have a lot of overlap on their skillsets and some of the same deficiencies, so it's an interesting pairing. A lot of people here hope the Bulls draft another playmaker to let both of those guys play off-ball more, which might a better use of their scoring skills. With a new PBO, GM and coach, our opening day team could be a lot different than what Boylen used last year. If we do start Coby and Zach as our 1/2, though, I have faith that Donovan can make it work, especially since he had success with guard-heavy rotations in Oklahoma.

I'm with you LaVine. I was very, very negative on him prior to last season, but everyone agrees that he works his ass off to be better, and I think it showed with some gutsy performances. Once I put on my thick rose-tinted glasses, I see Donovan leading those two to some really exciting up-tempo offense. Either guy can make a highlight reel move at any time. I'm all about defense, defense, defense, though, so I'm a little skeptical they can be a net positive together if both continue to have issues on the other side of the court. We're all hoping for a major turnaround, and for that to happen, Coby and Zach definitely need to step up.
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Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#5 » by The Chosen one » Wed Oct 7, 2020 5:07 pm

ImSlower wrote:
The Chosen one wrote:Hi everyone, this is my first post on this board. I know most Chicago fans are very excited about the young talent on the Bulls, especially Zach and Coby. What do you guys think of the backcourt? What do you all think is their ceiling together? I think they will be dynamic, both being able to score over 20 points a game with playmaking duties split between them. I definitely believe Coby will be the point guard of the future for the bulls! Lavine will be an Allstar next season. I loved that he improved his defense and playmaking last season. I think with a healthy team Lavine playmaking will improve and be even better this year.


Welcome! The board has seen better days, as the last 5 disappointing years have driven off some really superb posters, but it's still one of the best online communities I run around in. There are a bunch of regulars here who have forgotten more about basketball than I've ever known. Stick around, there's a lot more optimism around now with the new front office, coach, and #4 pick (in a down draft alas). I can guarantee that the days before draft night will be a lot of fun around here, and absolute bedlam while we wait for spoiler tweets on our pick.

Coby and Zach have a lot of overlap on their skillsets and some of the same deficiencies, so it's an interesting pairing. A lot of people here hope the Bulls draft another playmaker to let both of those guys play off-ball more, which might a better use of their scoring skills. With a new PBO, GM and coach, our opening day team could be a lot different than what Boylen used last year. If we do start Coby and Zach as our 1/2, though, I have faith that Donovan can make it work, especially since he had success with guard-heavy rotations in Oklahoma.

I'm with you LaVine. I was very, very negative on him prior to last season, but everyone agrees that he works his ass off to be better, and I think it showed with some gutsy performances. Once I put on my thick rose-tinted glasses, I see Donovan leading those two to some really exciting up-tempo offense. Either guy can make a highlight reel move at any time. I'm all about defense, defense, defense, though, so I'm a little skeptical they can be a net positive together if both continue to have issues on the other side of the court. We're all hoping for a major turnaround, and for that to happen, Coby and Zach definitely need to step up.

Thank you!! Who do you think will be the starters next year? I’m excited to see a healthy bulls squad! I think OPJ will make a difference. I think the starters will be PG) Coby SG) Lavine SF) OPJ PF) Lauri C) Carter. I hope Coby and Lavine build some more chemistry. It was a few games last season where both players went off and that was fun to watch! I don’t know if many teams in the NBA have 2 good guards that will be able to check them both on the same night.
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Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#6 » by ImSlower » Wed Oct 7, 2020 5:19 pm

That's definitely the safest bet for our starting 5. With a new front office and a #4 pick, I think there are a lot of scenarios that change it, of course. AK, Eversley and Donovan might have their eyes on one of these draftees, and maybe we see a big trade. White/LaVine and Markkanen/Carter Jr are two pairings that are arguably flawed, so I rather expect a trade somewhere. Your point regarding health is paramount. Porter Jr is on a contract year, is very talented, and could be far better than what we got last season. Or he could be trade bait if a contender has faith in his health. Markkanen fans hope that his struggles were a mix of multiple nagging injuries and Boylen being insultingly bad. WCJ is intriguing, but I'm not sure anyone expects him to become an all-star.
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Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#7 » by MrFortune3 » Wed Oct 7, 2020 5:23 pm

Welcome to the board.

I think not only health is key for the Bulls but seeing how many players buy in to what Donovan is preaching and change the culture.
Culture more so than health has been the primary issue during this down time for the franchise.

The culture has been rotten and it was allowed to permeate throughout the organization. Now with AK, Evs and Donovan here they have a chance to remake the culture into a positive and players first one. That will go a long way towards players developing properly.
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Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#8 » by ChettheJet » Wed Oct 7, 2020 5:24 pm

I would say Lavine will do better if he's got a guard next to him that the defense has to pay attention to. Pick anybody they had, Satorasky, Dunn, Harrison, Arcidiacono, they weren't threats. The same goes for Markkanen in whatever funk he played in last year, Carter it appeared wasn't allowed to shoot in the 3point Boylen scheme and Porter and Hutchison hardly played.

If the defense has to watch the other four players they can't double team Lavine and if they do White and Markkanen can be behind the arc to get an open shot while Carter can be moving to the basket. Maybe they will actually try a pick and roll.

Donovan is the biggest difference in how anybody could play
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Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#9 » by sco » Wed Oct 7, 2020 5:53 pm

I want to point out that I think that Zach and Coby have two of the strongest work ethics on the team which, IMO, is underrated as a predictor to NBA success. Sure you have to work on the right things.

I also don't worry about their overlapping skillsets as having two guys who can handle the ball and shoot from 3 as your backcourt is a key to winning in the NBA today.

I'm also not as concerned about their defense. While neither guy is elite, Coby showed that he's got promise to be a decent defender and Zach improved a fair bit last season.
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Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#10 » by The Chosen one » Thu Oct 8, 2020 12:55 pm

sco wrote:I want to point out that I think that Zach and Coby have two of the strongest work ethics on the team which, IMO, is underrated as a predictor to NBA success. Sure you have to work on the right things.

I also don't worry about their overlapping skillsets as having two guys who can handle the ball and shoot from 3 as your backcourt is a key to winning in the NBA today.

I'm also not as concerned about their defense. While neither guy is elite, Coby showed that he's got promise to be a decent defender and Zach improved a fair bit last season.

Yes you nailed it. Having two guys in the backcourt that can go off on any given night is going to be a problem for defenses. Coby defense was good like you mentioned especially for a rookie. I was very surprised with Lavines defense last year. He will never make an all defensive team but his ability to stop dribble penetration was very good. I think they both will share playmaking duties this year.
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Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#11 » by The Chosen one » Thu Oct 8, 2020 1:02 pm

ChettheJet wrote:I would say Lavine will do better if he's got a guard next to him that the defense has to pay attention to. Pick anybody they had, Satorasky, Dunn, Harrison, Arcidiacono, they weren't threats. The same goes for Markkanen in whatever funk he played in last year, Carter it appeared wasn't allowed to shoot in the 3point Boylen scheme and Porter and Hutchison hardly played.

If the defense has to watch the other four players they can't double team Lavine and if they do White and Markkanen can be behind the arc to get an open shot while Carter can be moving to the basket. Maybe they will actually try a pick and roll.

Donovan is the biggest difference in how anybody could play

Good point! I think Lavine will do better this year because Coby, Porter are scoring threats. I think we are going to see a comeback year from Markannan I was looking at the training camp footage and he’s looking confident and healthy. I think Carter is going to ball out this year now that he can shoot from the midrange. He has nice form on his shot. I think we will see improvement on the offensive side of the ball from Carter.
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Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#12 » by drosereturn » Thu Oct 8, 2020 3:00 pm

sco wrote:I want to point out that I think that Zach and Coby have two of the strongest work ethics on the team which, IMO, is underrated as a predictor to NBA success. Sure you have to work on the right things.

I also don't worry about their overlapping skillsets as having two guys who can handle the ball and shoot from 3 as your backcourt is a key to winning in the NBA today.

I'm also not as concerned about their defense. While neither guy is elite, Coby showed that he's got promise to be a decent defender and Zach improved a fair bit last season.


Thats a lot of positivity for an averaging starting caliber duo and the biggest issue for those two are that they dont play like a big guard and avoid contact because they never learned to finish through traffic.
I feel defense is the most important aspect esp if you cant playmake high level and even then they are selfish to look for their own shots they dont prioritize like Butler who always finds the right target despite not being a great handler. Shai proves my point bc hes not an elite passer as well but he makes up in other areas he is worth developing and became a star.

This duo needs to realize by next season they need to do more on less usage. Because this team is going to get better and if an all star or 2 is added in the near future, they need to learn to play off the ball. GSW had similar situation and developed lee, paschall, poole and can use them as main backups or even starters. Bulls had no structure last yr Billy need to draw the line in terms of whose taking the most shots and last one.
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Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#13 » by The Chosen one » Thu Oct 8, 2020 3:36 pm

drosereturn wrote:
sco wrote:I want to point out that I think that Zach and Coby have two of the strongest work ethics on the team which, IMO, is underrated as a predictor to NBA success. Sure you have to work on the right things.

I also don't worry about their overlapping skillsets as having two guys who can handle the ball and shoot from 3 as your backcourt is a key to winning in the NBA today.

I'm also not as concerned about their defense. While neither guy is elite, Coby showed that he's got promise to be a decent defender and Zach improved a fair bit last season.


Thats a lot of positivity for an averaging starting caliber duo and the biggest issue for those two are that they dont play like a big guard and avoid contact because they never learned to finish through traffic.
I feel defense is the most important aspect esp if you cant playmake high level and even then they are selfish to look for their own shots they dont prioritize like Butler who always finds the right target despite not being a great handler. Shai proves my point bc hes not an elite passer as well but he makes up in other areas he is worth developing and became a star.

This duo needs to realize by next season they need to do more on less usage. Because this team is going to get better and if an all star or 2 is added in the near future, they need to learn to play off the ball. GSW had similar situation and developed lee, paschall, poole and can use them as main backups or even starters. Bulls had no structure last yr Billy need to draw the line in terms of whose taking the most shots and last one.

There enough balls for everyone. Lavine definitely gave Lauri a lot of looks last season but he struggled with his shot. I think Lauri is going to have a monster year. Actually Coby starting will be better for Lauri because it takes less attention and pressure off Lauri. I think Lauri put a lot of pressure on himself to do well and it didn’t help that OPJ got injured. Now the bulls have scoring threats all over the court with Lavine, Coby, and OPJ. I think Lauri will be able to use his midrange game alittle more and score closer to the basket. I can see both Coby and Lauri averaging around 17-20 points a game. I think Lavine will be around 23-25 points per game. Carter and OPJ around 12-15 points a game. There’s enough shots for everybody. I think Coby-Lavine-Porter-Lauri-Carter compliment each other very well. The key is for all of them to stay healthy!
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Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#14 » by MrFortune3 » Thu Oct 8, 2020 3:57 pm

sco wrote:I want to point out that I think that Zach and Coby have two of the strongest work ethics on the team which, IMO, is underrated as a predictor to NBA success. Sure you have to work on the right things.

I also don't worry about their overlapping skillsets as having two guys who can handle the ball and shoot from 3 as your backcourt is a key to winning in the NBA today.

I'm also not as concerned about their defense. While neither guy is elite, Coby showed that he's got promise to be a decent defender and Zach improved a fair bit last season.


I am curious to see how their movement and assist numbers look with others actually calling for the ball and shooting it next season.
There shouldn't be a whole lot of standing around and trying to watch instead of cutting or getting open with Donovan coaching here.
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Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#15 » by johnnyvann840 » Thu Oct 8, 2020 4:49 pm

This back court scares me, tbh. Last season, advanced stats do not tell a very good story for these two on the floor together. The Bulls as a team finished with a negative point differential of -3.1 overall as a team. With the White/Lavine floor combo, the Bulls dropped to a very very poor -10.8. That was in 746 minutes. The worst team in the NBA last season was Golden State with a pt diff of -8.7.
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Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#16 » by The Chosen one » Thu Oct 8, 2020 5:03 pm

johnnyvann840 wrote:This back court scares me, tbh. Last season, advanced stats do not tell a very good story for these two on the floor together. The Bulls as a team finished with a negative point differential of -3.1 overall as a team. With the White/Lavine floor combo, the Bulls dropped to a very very poor -10.8. That was in 746 minutes. The worst team in the NBA last season was Golden State with a pt diff of -8.7.

If you scared buy a dog, I’m just kidding. Don’t always look at advance stats though man they can deceive you. I learned that the best thing is to trust your eye. I can bring up a lot of advance stats but they don’t paint the whole picture. Coby, Lavine and Lauri are the most talented players on the team. Coby and Lavine are undisputedly the best guards on the team. The more they play together the better chemistry they are going to have. Everybody is going to benefit from having OPJ back which gives you another talented offensive player and glue guy. The bulls team was a mess last year I don’t really trust any advance stats on the bulls last year, I watched every single game.
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Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#17 » by johnnyvann840 » Thu Oct 8, 2020 6:18 pm

The Chosen one wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:This back court scares me, tbh. Last season, advanced stats do not tell a very good story for these two on the floor together. The Bulls as a team finished with a negative point differential of -3.1 overall as a team. With the White/Lavine floor combo, the Bulls dropped to a very very poor -10.8. That was in 746 minutes. The worst team in the NBA last season was Golden State with a pt diff of -8.7.

If you scared buy a dog, I’m just kidding. Don’t always look at advance stats though man they can deceive you. I learned that the best thing is to trust your eye. I can bring up a lot of advance stats but they don’t paint the whole picture. Coby, Lavine and Lauri are the most talented players on the team. Coby and Lavine are undisputedly the best guards on the team. The more they play together the better chemistry they are going to have. Everybody is going to benefit from having OPJ back which gives you another talented offensive player and glue guy. The bulls team was a mess last year I don’t really trust any advance stats on the bulls last year, I watched every single game.


The advanced stats in this case do match the eye test pretty well. Zach and Coby are both liabilities on defense and when you put them together you have poor D at the point of attack. When you cannot stop the ball, you cannot stop the opponent from scoring. They are both similar in that they are both pretty good on the ball, they both have quick hands and Lavine is good at jumping into the passing lanes and stealing the ball. But both Zach and Coby are very poor when it comes to playing within a team defense. Poor help and poor positioning. Maybe Billy Donovan can get them playing solid team D and if that happens they could be a very good back court because they can both be dynamic scorers. Lavine and Dunn were really bad as a floor combo coming into last season but they were much better during the season. I know Lavine is a hard worker and he says he wants to improve on the defensive end, so we'll see.
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Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#18 » by drosestruts » Thu Oct 8, 2020 7:57 pm

Welcome to the board!

I think Bill Donovan will be the best Bulls coach in the past 5 years, easily. At the NBA level so far he's always had a lead, ball-dominant guard (Westbrook, CP3). The Bulls don't have such a player so I'm interested in seeing what type of offensive system Donovan comes up with for the Bulls.

In my mind, I envision something similar to Utah. Mitchell, like LaVine is a big-time scoring threat. In Utah the players surrounding Mitchell are all capable passers, and I'm curious if that system could work here, or if we don't have the right personnel for it. I think White and Carter are good enough passers, unsure about Porter and Markkanen...

LaVine is often criticized for his playmaking but in my view, it's an area he's made incremental improvement each year. Obviously, it'd be great for him to make a big leap, but outside of that, all you can really ask for is for a player to keep making improvements, which he has.
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Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#19 » by The Chosen one » Thu Oct 8, 2020 8:27 pm

johnnyvann840 wrote:
The Chosen one wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:This back court scares me, tbh. Last season, advanced stats do not tell a very good story for these two on the floor together. The Bulls as a team finished with a negative point differential of -3.1 overall as a team. With the White/Lavine floor combo, the Bulls dropped to a very very poor -10.8. That was in 746 minutes. The worst team in the NBA last season was Golden State with a pt diff of -8.7.

If you scared buy a dog, I’m just kidding. Don’t always look at advance stats though man they can deceive you. I learned that the best thing is to trust your eye. I can bring up a lot of advance stats but they don’t paint the whole picture. Coby, Lavine and Lauri are the most talented players on the team. Coby and Lavine are undisputedly the best guards on the team. The more they play together the better chemistry they are going to have. Everybody is going to benefit from having OPJ back which gives you another talented offensive player and glue guy. The bulls team was a mess last year I don’t really trust any advance stats on the bulls last year, I watched every single game.


The advanced stats in this case do match the eye test pretty well. Zach and Coby are both liabilities on defense and when you put them together you have poor D at the point of attack. When you cannot stop the ball, you cannot stop the opponent from scoring. They are both similar in that they are both pretty good on the ball, they both have quick hands and Lavine is good at jumping into the passing lanes and stealing the ball. But both Zach and Coby are very poor when it comes to playing within a team defense. Poor help and poor positioning. Maybe Billy Donovan can get them playing solid team D and if that happens they could be a very good back court because they can both be dynamic scorers. Lavine and Dunn were really bad as a floor combo coming into last season but they were much better during the season. I know Lavine is a hard worker and he says he wants to improve on the defensive end, so we'll see.

I disagree big time! Coby was definitely not a liability on defense. He was surprisingly pretty solid on that end. Lavine was also solid as well and showed major improvement. Also I disagree with Lavine and Coby not being team players. I watched every game last season and Lavine and Coby was the only people who could create shots. Lavine actually did very well playmaking for others but guys could not hit shots due to lack of offense talent. Coby is actually an unselfish player if you go back to his UNC days but he was used as scorer and a guy that the Bulls put in different actions due to lack of talent. Lavine deferred to Porter a lot when they played together. I don’t buy the Lavine is selfish stigma that some people put on him. He carried a young injured bull squad last year albeit they didn’t win much but that’s not his fault. He did his part, now it’s up to everybody else to stay healthy and pick up their games.
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Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#20 » by The Force. » Thu Oct 8, 2020 8:29 pm

Zach and Coby could be a dynamic backcourt if Coby can learn point and Zach can add 50 IQ points.

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