Image ImageImage Image

Zach and Coby

Moderators: HomoSapien, fleet, RedBulls23, Ice Man, AshyLarrysDiaper, Tommy Udo 6 , GimmeDat, dougthonus, Payt10, DASMACKDOWN, kulaz3000

kodo
RealGM
Posts: 14,121
And1: 8,912
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Location: Wrigleyville

Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#21 » by kodo » Thu Oct 8, 2020 8:30 pm

The most common lineup where Zach & Coby play together has Coby as a SF. He's not a SF physically, defensively, or offensively. It's a terrible rotation.

The 2nd most common lineup where Zach & Coby play together has Felicio as our center and Thad as our PF. Felicio isn't an NBA player. It's 4 on 5.

I'd be curious to see how Zach + Coby lineups work where they both play their true positions as guards and with a decent frontcourt. One of the interesting facts that came out of our terrible season end was that the injuries allowed us to see Coby as a guard, and hey he ended up playing a lot better.

In general I think Coby needs multiple years and most rookies are bad on D, but our org also takes some blame in how he was used.
The Chosen one
Freshman
Posts: 91
And1: 39
Joined: Oct 07, 2020

Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#22 » by The Chosen one » Thu Oct 8, 2020 8:41 pm

kodo wrote:The most common lineup where Zach & Coby play together has Coby as a SF. He's not a SF physically, defensively, or offensively. It's a terrible rotation.

The 2nd most common lineup where Zach & Coby play together has Felicio as our center and Thad as our PF. Felicio isn't an NBA player. It's 4 on 5.

I'd be curious to see how Zach + Coby lineups work where they both play their true positions as guards and with a decent frontcourt. One of the interesting facts that came out of our terrible season end was that the injuries allowed us to see Coby as a guard, and hey he ended up playing a lot better.

In general I think Coby needs multiple years and most rookies are bad on D, but our org also takes some blame in how he was used.

Good point! Coby did play the 3 a lot last season which imo was terrible coaching. I saw the last part of the season and White played well as the point guard. He was actually doing an ok job playmaking to. I will like to see Coby-Lavine-Porter-Lauri-Carter play together. There’s no offensive liabilities. Everybody on the court would be a decent passer and can handle and shoot. Also I think that 5 can compete on defense to. Porter is a good defender when healthy. Carter has a chance to be Elite. White and Lavine are good on the ball. Lavine needs to continue to improve off the ball but he’s not terrible. Lauri isn’t a total liability on defense. Imo if the White, Carter, Markannan continues to develop and Porter stay healthy Bulls will have a chance at making the playoffs.
TeamMan
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,314
And1: 432
Joined: Dec 11, 2002

Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#23 » by TeamMan » Thu Oct 8, 2020 8:50 pm

The Chosen one wrote:Hi everyone, this is my first post on this board. I know most Chicago fans are very excited about the young talent on the Bulls, especially Zach and Coby. What do you guys think of the backcourt? What do you all think is their ceiling together? I think they will be dynamic, both being able to score over 20 points a game with playmaking duties split between them. I definitely believe Coby will be the point guard of the future for the bulls! Lavine will be an Allstar next season. I loved that he improved his defense and playmaking last season. I think with a healthy team Lavine playmaking will improve and be even better this year.

Great 1st post. :thumbsup:

This is actually a subject that I've been thinking about a lot, especially because in Donovan's interview, Coby was the 1st player that he mentioned when talking about the Bulls young talent.

IMO it appears clear that he's already made up his mind that he wants Coby to start together with Zach.

ChettheJet wrote:I would say Lavine will do better if he's got a guard next to him that the defense has to pay attention to. Pick anybody they had, Satorasky, Dunn, Harrison, Arcidiacono, they weren't threats. The same goes for Markkanen in whatever funk he played in last year, Carter it appeared wasn't allowed to shoot in the 3point Boylen scheme and Porter and Hutchison hardly played.

If the defense has to watch the other four players they can't double team Lavine and if they do White and Markkanen can be behind the arc to get an open shot while Carter can be moving to the basket. Maybe they will actually try a pick and roll.

Donovan is the biggest difference in how anybody could play

I just recently posted that Zach has never had a triple-double in the NBA (he has come close, but failed on assists), but I think that he will next season because IMO he'll be starting together with Coby.

However, one of things that came out of the Eversley interview (and which I didn't know) was that he was with the Wizards organization when OPJ was traded.

He said that, when he sees OPJ now, he's not happy with his conditioning, and that he wants OPJ to work to get back to where he was with the Wizards.

And that was exactly what I thought. It appeared to me (that for a guy making 28 Mil./Yr.) OPJ was not in the best of shape.

Also, in the "Bulls Bubble" thread I saw the 1st clip that I'd ever seen of OPJ working out in the weight room with the team. So, it may be that Eversley can motivate him better than Gar/Pax were able to.

The 2nd aspect of that, was that IMO Gar/Pax also knew OPJ was out of condition, but didn't care, because they planed to let him walk at the end of his contract anyway.

So, I wouldn't count OPJ out of the equation until after we see how the Eversley/Donovan team motivates him.
User avatar
TheSuzerain
RealGM
Posts: 13,301
And1: 8,442
Joined: Mar 29, 2012

Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#24 » by TheSuzerain » Thu Oct 8, 2020 9:06 pm

kodo wrote:The most common lineup where Zach & Coby play together has Coby as a SF. He's not a SF physically, defensively, or offensively. It's a terrible rotation.

The 2nd most common lineup where Zach & Coby play together has Felicio as our center and Thad as our PF. Felicio isn't an NBA player. It's 4 on 5.

I'd be curious to see how Zach + Coby lineups work where they both play their true positions as guards and with a decent frontcourt. One of the interesting facts that came out of our terrible season end was that the injuries allowed us to see Coby as a guard, and hey he ended up playing a lot better.

In general I think Coby needs multiple years and most rookies are bad on D, but our org also takes some blame in how he was used.

No it doesn't?

Sato surely was guarding the SFs in that lineup.
User avatar
johnnyvann840
RealGM
Posts: 33,609
And1: 18,170
Joined: Sep 04, 2010

Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#25 » by johnnyvann840 » Thu Oct 8, 2020 9:08 pm

The Chosen one wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:
The Chosen one wrote:If you scared buy a dog, I’m just kidding. Don’t always look at advance stats though man they can deceive you. I learned that the best thing is to trust your eye. I can bring up a lot of advance stats but they don’t paint the whole picture. Coby, Lavine and Lauri are the most talented players on the team. Coby and Lavine are undisputedly the best guards on the team. The more they play together the better chemistry they are going to have. Everybody is going to benefit from having OPJ back which gives you another talented offensive player and glue guy. The bulls team was a mess last year I don’t really trust any advance stats on the bulls last year, I watched every single game.


The advanced stats in this case do match the eye test pretty well. Zach and Coby are both liabilities on defense and when you put them together you have poor D at the point of attack. When you cannot stop the ball, you cannot stop the opponent from scoring. They are both similar in that they are both pretty good on the ball, they both have quick hands and Lavine is good at jumping into the passing lanes and stealing the ball. But both Zach and Coby are very poor when it comes to playing within a team defense. Poor help and poor positioning. Maybe Billy Donovan can get them playing solid team D and if that happens they could be a very good back court because they can both be dynamic scorers. Lavine and Dunn were really bad as a floor combo coming into last season but they were much better during the season. I know Lavine is a hard worker and he says he wants to improve on the defensive end, so we'll see.

I disagree big time! Coby was definitely not a liability on defense. He was surprisingly pretty solid on that end. Lavine was also solid as well and showed major improvement. Also I disagree with Lavine and Coby not being team players. I watched every game last season and Lavine and Coby was the only people who could create shots. Lavine actually did very well playmaking for others but guys could not hit shots due to lack of offense talent. Coby is actually an unselfish player if you go back to his UNC days but he was used as scorer and a guy that the Bulls put in different actions due to lack of talent. Lavine deferred to Porter a lot when they played together. I don’t buy the Lavine is selfish stigma that some people put on him. He carried a young injured bull squad last year albeit they didn’t win much but that’s not his fault. He did his part, now it’s up to everybody else to stay healthy and pick up their games.


I didn't say they weren't "team players". I said they both have trouble playing "team defense" and working within a scheme.... rotating, helping, being in position, picking up the right man in transition.... things like that.

I also didn't say Lavine or Coby were selfish. In fact, I didn't mention anything about their offense. I said they are both defensive liabilities and they were last season. That is just a fact. They are both decent on ball defenders one on one. Where they both run into trouble is playing team defense. It's expected from a rook like Coby, but Zach has been in the league for 6 years now and still doesn't get it. As far as Zach being a good play maker, I beg to differ. He makes the wrong pass, the wrong read or the wrong play far too often, especially in crunch time. It's a major reason why he is not a positive impact player and doesn't move the needle much and often moves it the wrong way. The crazy thing is that the Bulls were actually better in point differential (by 5 pts per 100 poss) when Zach was not playing than they were when he was on the floor. As far as Zach "carrying" a young injured Bulls squad- carried them to what? The cellar? The biggest issue with him is that he doesn't lift up the team at all or make his teammates better.
I am more than just a serious basketball fan. I am a life-long addict. I was addicted from birth. - Hunter S. Thompson
The Chosen one
Freshman
Posts: 91
And1: 39
Joined: Oct 07, 2020

Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#26 » by The Chosen one » Thu Oct 8, 2020 9:21 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:
kodo wrote:The most common lineup where Zach & Coby play together has Coby as a SF. He's not a SF physically, defensively, or offensively. It's a terrible rotation.

The 2nd most common lineup where Zach & Coby play together has Felicio as our center and Thad as our PF. Felicio isn't an NBA player. It's 4 on 5.

I'd be curious to see how Zach + Coby lineups work where they both play their true positions as guards and with a decent frontcourt. One of the interesting facts that came out of our terrible season end was that the injuries allowed us to see Coby as a guard, and hey he ended up playing a lot better.

In general I think Coby needs multiple years and most rookies are bad on D, but our org also takes some blame in how he was used.

No it doesn't?

Sato surely was guarding the SFs in that lineup.

Satoransky usually took the lesser of the the defensive assignments. I think Satoransky could be a decent bench peice. To be honest though I think his defense was lacking this season. I hope he has a bounce back year. But Coby and Lavine guarded the tougher assignments most of the time. Dunn when he played covered the toughest perimeter player.
The Chosen one
Freshman
Posts: 91
And1: 39
Joined: Oct 07, 2020

Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#27 » by The Chosen one » Thu Oct 8, 2020 9:35 pm

johnnyvann840 wrote:
The Chosen one wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:
The advanced stats in this case do match the eye test pretty well. Zach and Coby are both liabilities on defense and when you put them together you have poor D at the point of attack. When you cannot stop the ball, you cannot stop the opponent from scoring. They are both similar in that they are both pretty good on the ball, they both have quick hands and Lavine is good at jumping into the passing lanes and stealing the ball. But both Zach and Coby are very poor when it comes to playing within a team defense. Poor help and poor positioning. Maybe Billy Donovan can get them playing solid team D and if that happens they could be a very good back court because they can both be dynamic scorers. Lavine and Dunn were really bad as a floor combo coming into last season but they were much better during the season. I know Lavine is a hard worker and he says he wants to improve on the defensive end, so we'll see.

I disagree big time! Coby was definitely not a liability on defense. He was surprisingly pretty solid on that end. Lavine was also solid as well and showed major improvement. Also I disagree with Lavine and Coby not being team players. I watched every game last season and Lavine and Coby was the only people who could create shots. Lavine actually did very well playmaking for others but guys could not hit shots due to lack of offense talent. Coby is actually an unselfish player if you go back to his UNC days but he was used as scorer and a guy that the Bulls put in different actions due to lack of talent. Lavine deferred to Porter a lot when they played together. I don’t buy the Lavine is selfish stigma that some people put on him. He carried a young injured bull squad last year albeit they didn’t win much but that’s not his fault. He did his part, now it’s up to everybody else to stay healthy and pick up their games.


I didn't say they weren't "team players". I said they both have trouble playing "team defense" and working within a scheme.... rotating, helping, being in position, picking up the right man in transition.... things like that.

I also didn't say Lavine or Coby were selfish. In fact, I didn't mention anything about their offense. I said they are both defensive liabilities and they were last season. That is just a fact. They are both decent on ball defenders one on one. Where they both run into trouble is playing team defense. It's expected from a rook like Coby, but Zach has been in the league for 6 years now and still doesn't get it. As far as Zach being a good play maker, I beg to differ. He makes the wrong pass, the wrong read or the wrong play far too often, especially in crunch time. It's a major reason why he is not a positive impact player and doesn't move the needle much and often moves it the wrong way. The crazy thing is that the Bulls were actually better in point differential (by 5 pts per 100 poss) when Zach was not playing than they were when he was on the floor. As far as Zach "carrying" a young injured Bulls squad- carried them to what? The cellar? The biggest issue with him is that he doesn't lift up the team at all or make his teammates better.

I disagree with all of this. They weren't defensive liabilities at all. A defensive liability is a player like Korver or McDermott. Somebody that the defense constantly picks on. And Coby was actually not only a good on the ball defender, he usually made the right rotations on defense as well. Stacey and Funk mentioned it a lot towards the end of the season. He had occasional mistakes but that’s to be expected. Disagree with Lavine making the wrong reads and right pass to. Lavine often times found players for wide open shots but they just did not convert them.He made the right play most of the time finding the dive man or hitting Lauri for the pick n pop jumper. Stacey even mentioned that he wanted Lavine playmaking more because the he became good especially toward the end of the season at reading how the defense was playing him. And Lavine not being a positive player is why I don’t read to much into advance stats for the bulls. I think everybody saw what Lavine had to work with most of the season. If you took Lavine off the team on most nights I don’t think the bulls would make it to 60 points. I never said that Lavine carried the bulls to wins but I stated that he kept them in games they had no business being in. Give me a guy like Lavine any day of the week. An efficient scorer who give you some assist and rebounds while playing solid man defense.
User avatar
johnnyvann840
RealGM
Posts: 33,609
And1: 18,170
Joined: Sep 04, 2010

Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#28 » by johnnyvann840 » Fri Oct 9, 2020 4:09 am

kodo wrote:The most common lineup where Zach & Coby play together has Coby as a SF. He's not a SF physically, defensively, or offensively. It's a terrible rotation.

The 2nd most common lineup where Zach & Coby play together has Felicio as our center and Thad as our PF. Felicio isn't an NBA player. It's 4 on 5.

I'd be curious to see how Zach + Coby lineups work where they both play their true positions as guards and with a decent frontcourt. One of the interesting facts that came out of our terrible season end was that the injuries allowed us to see Coby as a guard, and hey he ended up playing a lot better.

In general I think Coby needs multiple years and most rookies are bad on D, but our org also takes some blame in how he was used.


I agree about wanting to see Zach and Coby more with both as guards with OPJ. The one magic pill for Lavine so far in his career has been Otto Porter. When Zach has gotten to play with a healthy OPJ good things happen and the Bulls win games. When you dig deep into Lavine's lineups you see that in all his years in the NBA he has been a solid positive impact player with one man in particular and it's Otto Porter Jr. So, a White, Lavine, OPJ, Lauri, WCJ lineup could be interesting if Donovan can get them all tied together on the other end. I think offensively that is a solid unit.
I am more than just a serious basketball fan. I am a life-long addict. I was addicted from birth. - Hunter S. Thompson
User avatar
drosereturn
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,753
And1: 1,491
Joined: Oct 12, 2018

Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#29 » by drosereturn » Fri Oct 9, 2020 4:23 am

johnnyvann840 wrote:
I agree about wanting to see Zach and Coby more with both as guards with OPJ. The one magic pill for Lavine so far in his career has been Otto Porter. When Zach has gotten to play with a healthy OPJ good things happen and the Bulls win games. When you dig deep into Lavine's lineups you see that in all his years in the NBA he has been a solid positive impact player with one man in particular and it's Otto Porter Jr. So, a White, Lavine, OPJ, Lauri, WCJ lineup could be interesting if Donovan can get them all tied together on the other end. I think offensively that is a solid unit.


Thats not a magic pill. Lavine only got better advanced stats because OPJ was an elite SF for the limited time and him taking 15 shots a game took away Lavines chucking which is why in your eyes he seems improved. But by this logic, everyone will get better by playing with great low usage two way wings shooting over 60% TS with 50-40-90 numbers.

The reason why I dont buy Lavine and White is because their dominant 1month streaks were all when the entire roster was destroyed by injuries they put up big meaningless stats but White is a rookie so I wont take away everything. I never doubted Lavines greatness or even Whites ability because they can easily avg 30 pts a game. But the issue is team gets worse with those guys doing their own thing and not playing like a team. If advanced stats told me those guys are better off the bench as a 6th man, I am going to force them bc of the team and limit to 10 shots a game although I know they can avg 30 a game. Lauri is another different story because he proved for an entire month him as the number 1 option could get the Bulls to the promise land in a well organized roster where Lopez knew he had to concede and sacrifice to witness greatness.
Lamelo will be a future superstar Bull. Book it. Lavar for president!
User avatar
drosereturn
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,753
And1: 1,491
Joined: Oct 12, 2018

Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#30 » by drosereturn » Fri Oct 9, 2020 4:35 am

kodo wrote:The most common lineup where Zach & Coby play together has Coby as a SF. He's not a SF physically, defensively, or offensively. It's a terrible rotation.

The 2nd most common lineup where Zach & Coby play together has Felicio as our center and Thad as our PF. Felicio isn't an NBA player. It's 4 on 5.

I'd be curious to see how Zach + Coby lineups work where they both play their true positions as guards and with a decent frontcourt. One of the interesting facts that came out of our terrible season end was that the injuries allowed us to see Coby as a guard, and hey he ended up playing a lot better.

In general I think Coby needs multiple years and most rookies are bad on D, but our org also takes some blame in how he was used.


Who cares about White playing SF when Lavine put up superstar numbers as SF? Does that mean we should start him as SF?
What most important was they were the worst duo when played together despite their great skill on paper.
Using but, ifs on advanced stats that never lie is just an excuse for those players to give more playing time it lacks credibility because theres no evidence starting them together for 40 minutes will guarantee them a playoff spot. Looks like you want 1 full yr of 82 games experimentation just for the curiosity of trying out when Billy could do those in camp, pre season games not blow up his job. Lavine and White are great one way scorers they just need to be controlled by Boylen to stagger them.

Theres also no such thing as decent frontcourt when the Bulls are capped and most of the roster will remain the same.
Lamelo will be a future superstar Bull. Book it. Lavar for president!
User avatar
nomorezorro
General Manager
Posts: 9,968
And1: 6,044
Joined: Jun 22, 2006
Location: GARPAX FOREVER

Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#31 » by nomorezorro » Fri Oct 9, 2020 4:37 am

zach and coby probably aren't a great long-term backcourt, but they're both fun players who will almost certainly be on our team throughout the first half of next season, so i think it's much more enjoyable to think about the possibility that they develop good chemistry together than it is to focus on the obvious hurdles they will have to overcome

i am interested to watch them play together :)
WookieOnRitalin wrote:Game 1. It's where the series is truly 0-0.
The Chosen one
Freshman
Posts: 91
And1: 39
Joined: Oct 07, 2020

Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#32 » by The Chosen one » Fri Oct 9, 2020 4:56 am

drosereturn wrote:
kodo wrote:The most common lineup where Zach & Coby play together has Coby as a SF. He's not a SF physically, defensively, or offensively. It's a terrible rotation.

The 2nd most common lineup where Zach & Coby play together has Felicio as our center and Thad as our PF. Felicio isn't an NBA player. It's 4 on 5.

I'd be curious to see how Zach + Coby lineups work where they both play their true positions as guards and with a decent frontcourt. One of the interesting facts that came out of our terrible season end was that the injuries allowed us to see Coby as a guard, and hey he ended up playing a lot better.

In general I think Coby needs multiple years and most rookies are bad on D, but our org also takes some blame in how he was used.


Who cares about White playing SF when Lavine put up superstar numbers as SF? Does that mean we should start him as SF?
What most important was they were the worst duo when played together despite their great skill on paper.
Using but, ifs on advanced stats that never lie is just an excuse for those players to give more playing time it lacks credibility because theres no evidence starting them together for 40 minutes will guarantee them a playoff spot. Looks like you want 1 full yr of 82 games experimentation just for the curiosity of trying out when Billy could do those in camp, pre season games not blow up his job. Lavine and White are great one way scorers they just need to be controlled by Boylen to stagger them.

Theres also no such thing as decent frontcourt when the Bulls are capped and most of the roster will remain the same.

What?
The Chosen one
Freshman
Posts: 91
And1: 39
Joined: Oct 07, 2020

Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#33 » by The Chosen one » Fri Oct 9, 2020 5:06 am

drosereturn wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:
I agree about wanting to see Zach and Coby more with both as guards with OPJ. The one magic pill for Lavine so far in his career has been Otto Porter. When Zach has gotten to play with a healthy OPJ good things happen and the Bulls win games. When you dig deep into Lavine's lineups you see that in all his years in the NBA he has been a solid positive impact player with one man in particular and it's Otto Porter Jr. So, a White, Lavine, OPJ, Lauri, WCJ lineup could be interesting if Donovan can get them all tied together on the other end. I think offensively that is a solid unit.


Thats not a magic pill. Lavine only got better advanced stats because OPJ was an elite SF for the limited time and him taking 15 shots a game took away Lavines chucking which is why in your eyes he seems improved. But by this logic, everyone will get better by playing with great low usage two way wings shooting over 60% TS with 50-40-90 numbers.

The reason why I dont buy Lavine and White is because their dominant 1month streaks were all when the entire roster was destroyed by injuries they put up big meaningless stats but White is a rookie so I wont take away everything. I never doubted Lavines greatness or even Whites ability because they can easily avg 30 pts a game. But the issue is team gets worse with those guys doing their own thing and not playing like a team. If advanced stats told me those guys are better off the bench as a 6th man, I am going to force them bc of the team and limit to 10 shots a game although I know they can avg 30 a game. Lauri is another different story because he proved for an entire month him as the number 1 option could get the Bulls to the promise land in a well organized roster where Lopez knew he had to concede and sacrifice to witness greatness.

Advanced stats are dangerous if you don’t take them into context. I think the worst thing is allowing fans to look at advanced stats. Some know how to use them and watch game action to see what roles player are playing and sets that are being ran and judge them by that. Others use advanced stats and don’t watch the games. It’s obvious by some of things I’m reading. And man Lavine has proved way longer that he’s a better scoring option than Lauri. Lavine has proved it for 2 years not one month. You don’t have to tear other players down to build the player you like up. Lauri should have a monster season if he stays healthy and be less passive.
The Chosen one
Freshman
Posts: 91
And1: 39
Joined: Oct 07, 2020

Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#34 » by The Chosen one » Fri Oct 9, 2020 5:10 am

nomorezorro wrote:zach and coby probably aren't a great long-term backcourt, but they're both fun players who will almost certainly be on our team throughout the first half of next season, so i think it's much more enjoyable to think about the possibility that they develop good chemistry together than it is to focus on the obvious hurdles they will have to overcome

i am interested to watch them play together :)

Why can’t they be a long term backcourt. They are two of the most talented players on the team and are both young. Both are good scorers, capable playmakers, and solid on ball defenders.I see know reason why they can start in the backcourt together. The more scoring options the better. Lavine probably would’ve average 7 assist a game last year if players would’ve hit open shots. He was finding guys wide open last year.
User avatar
nomorezorro
General Manager
Posts: 9,968
And1: 6,044
Joined: Jun 22, 2006
Location: GARPAX FOREVER

Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#35 » by nomorezorro » Fri Oct 9, 2020 5:25 am

i think they can be too and i hope they are!
WookieOnRitalin wrote:Game 1. It's where the series is truly 0-0.
TeamMan
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,314
And1: 432
Joined: Dec 11, 2002

Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#36 » by TeamMan » Fri Oct 9, 2020 7:53 am

The Chosen one wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
kodo wrote:The most common lineup where Zach & Coby play together has Coby as a SF. He's not a SF physically, defensively, or offensively. It's a terrible rotation.

The 2nd most common lineup where Zach & Coby play together has Felicio as our center and Thad as our PF. Felicio isn't an NBA player. It's 4 on 5.

I'd be curious to see how Zach + Coby lineups work where they both play their true positions as guards and with a decent frontcourt. One of the interesting facts that came out of our terrible season end was that the injuries allowed us to see Coby as a guard, and hey he ended up playing a lot better.

In general I think Coby needs multiple years and most rookies are bad on D, but our org also takes some blame in how he was used.

No it doesn't?

Sato surely was guarding the SFs in that lineup.

Satoransky usually took the lesser of the the defensive assignments. I think Satoransky could be a decent bench peice. To be honest though I think his defense was lacking this season. I hope he has a bounce back year. But Coby and Lavine guarded the tougher assignments most of the time. Dunn when he played covered the toughest perimeter player.

If OPJ is healthy he will start at SF, and as I previously posted, Zach and Coby will start at the guard positions.

Most likely Lauri will start at PF, but there is a question mark about what's going on with WCJ since he's announced that he wants to play PF.

If he's not traded, then he'll start at center. If Lauri is traded, then WCJ will start at PF.
Chi town
RealGM
Posts: 17,889
And1: 3,898
Joined: Aug 10, 2004

Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#37 » by Chi town » Fri Oct 9, 2020 5:19 pm

TeamMan wrote:
The Chosen one wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:No it doesn't?

Sato surely was guarding the SFs in that lineup.

Satoransky usually took the lesser of the the defensive assignments. I think Satoransky could be a decent bench peice. To be honest though I think his defense was lacking this season. I hope he has a bounce back year. But Coby and Lavine guarded the tougher assignments most of the time. Dunn when he played covered the toughest perimeter player.

If OPJ is healthy he will start at SF, and as I previously posted, Zach and Coby will start at the guard positions.

Most likely Lauri will start at PF, but there is a question mark about what's going on with WCJ since he's announced that he wants to play PF.

If he's not traded, then he'll start at center. If Lauri is traded, then WCJ will start at PF.


WCJ will never start at PF. He’s not a PF. At all.

Billy D knows better.
User avatar
PaKii94
Head Coach
Posts: 6,924
And1: 3,718
Joined: Aug 22, 2013
     

Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#38 » by PaKii94 » Fri Oct 9, 2020 7:53 pm

johnnyvann840 wrote:
The Chosen one wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:
The advanced stats in this case do match the eye test pretty well. Zach and Coby are both liabilities on defense and when you put them together you have poor D at the point of attack. When you cannot stop the ball, you cannot stop the opponent from scoring. They are both similar in that they are both pretty good on the ball, they both have quick hands and Lavine is good at jumping into the passing lanes and stealing the ball. But both Zach and Coby are very poor when it comes to playing within a team defense. Poor help and poor positioning. Maybe Billy Donovan can get them playing solid team D and if that happens they could be a very good back court because they can both be dynamic scorers. Lavine and Dunn were really bad as a floor combo coming into last season but they were much better during the season. I know Lavine is a hard worker and he says he wants to improve on the defensive end, so we'll see.

I disagree big time! Coby was definitely not a liability on defense. He was surprisingly pretty solid on that end. Lavine was also solid as well and showed major improvement. Also I disagree with Lavine and Coby not being team players. I watched every game last season and Lavine and Coby was the only people who could create shots. Lavine actually did very well playmaking for others but guys could not hit shots due to lack of offense talent. Coby is actually an unselfish player if you go back to his UNC days but he was used as scorer and a guy that the Bulls put in different actions due to lack of talent. Lavine deferred to Porter a lot when they played together. I don’t buy the Lavine is selfish stigma that some people put on him. He carried a young injured bull squad last year albeit they didn’t win much but that’s not his fault. He did his part, now it’s up to everybody else to stay healthy and pick up their games.


I didn't say they weren't "team players". I said they both have trouble playing "team defense" and working within a scheme.... rotating, helping, being in position, picking up the right man in transition.... things like that.

I also didn't say Lavine or Coby were selfish. In fact, I didn't mention anything about their offense. I said they are both defensive liabilities and they were last season. That is just a fact. They are both decent on ball defenders one on one. Where they both run into trouble is playing team defense. It's expected from a rook like Coby, but Zach has been in the league for 6 years now and still doesn't get it. As far as Zach being a good play maker, I beg to differ. He makes the wrong pass, the wrong read or the wrong play far too often, especially in crunch time. It's a major reason why he is not a positive impact player and doesn't move the needle much and often moves it the wrong way. The crazy thing is that the Bulls were actually better in point differential (by 5 pts per 100 poss) when Zach was not playing than they were when he was on the floor. As far as Zach "carrying" a young injured Bulls squad- carried them to what? The cellar? The biggest issue with him is that he doesn't lift up the team at all or make his teammates better.


^this. What I wouldn't fully agree with is Coby. He was bad on defense but he WAS a rookie. I did see vast improvement as the season went on. Similarly on the offensive end. So I definitely am higher on Coby to get it together. Lavine has had too many years to improve his deficiencies. He is what he is as a player. He will mature and make some progress on the mental side of things but it takes time and experience in the league.
TeamMan
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,314
And1: 432
Joined: Dec 11, 2002

Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#39 » by TeamMan » Fri Oct 9, 2020 8:46 pm

Chi town wrote:
TeamMan wrote:
The Chosen one wrote:Satoransky usually took the lesser of the the defensive assignments. I think Satoransky could be a decent bench peice. To be honest though I think his defense was lacking this season. I hope he has a bounce back year. But Coby and Lavine guarded the tougher assignments most of the time. Dunn when he played covered the toughest perimeter player.

If OPJ is healthy he will start at SF, and as I previously posted, Zach and Coby will start at the guard positions.

Most likely Lauri will start at PF, but there is a question mark about what's going on with WCJ since he's announced that he wants to play PF.

If he's not traded, then he'll start at center. If Lauri is traded, then WCJ will start at PF.


WCJ will never start at PF. He’s not a PF. At all.

Billy D knows better.

Sorry, this was a "What if..." scenario.

In this case "What if the Bulls traded Lauri?"

Then the only reason that I could see that happening is if they plan to play WCJ at PF.

So, logically, the reverse would also apply.

If the Bulls don't trade Lauri, then WCJ will not play PF (as I said in my previous post).
User avatar
Orangey
Ballboy
Posts: 10
And1: 11
Joined: Oct 05, 2020
 

Re: Zach and Coby 

Post#40 » by Orangey » Fri Oct 9, 2020 9:19 pm

Should probably trade one of them. Having two point guards starting who average less then 7 assists per games combined will not be pleasing to the eyes. Lauri is going to get 7 shots attempts per game like Draymond, but Lauri is bad at defense.

Return to Chicago Bulls