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OT: Illinois fair tax: yes or no?

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What are you planning to vote?

Yes
35
45%
No
42
55%
 
Total votes: 77

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Re: OT: Illinois fair tax: yes or no? 

Post#141 » by nitetrain8603 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:56 pm

moorhosj wrote:
Almost Retired wrote:Having lived in Chicago area for half my life and now in Texas for the past 15 years I think the statistics you mention don't tell the story because they are influenced by other factors. Like Transportion. We live in the Austin area. Rush hour driving is no fun, but it's not nearly as bad as Chicagoland. And that's without adding snow and ice in the winter. Chicagoland does have better public transportation because it's more condensed. Most of Texas is too spread out to make that work for us. Outside the cities I think Texas in general has much better roads than Illinois. Health care access in our larger towns and cities are just fine. And as I work in the health care field it is my observation that hospital quality is very high in Austin, Dallas, San Antonio and Houston. Our rural areas are not as well served simply because of how spread out Texas is. We have counties bigger than Rhode Island. It's an 800 mile drive from Texarkana to El Paso (east to west). I would match many of our urban Medical Centers against any in Illinois. The Education stats are skewed. Our suburban schools are excellent. As good as any public schools in Illinois. And the University of Texas system is much larger, much better funded, and higher rated in many fields than the Univ of Illinois system. Our health and educational statistics suffer due to the Rio Grande Valley area. Too many non English speaking immigrants down there. Hundreds of thousand of illegals. There is serious poverty down there in the border counties. Cartel crime. Eliminate the Rio Brande Valley and our health, education and education statistics would be much better. We have brutal summers. You have brutal winters. That's a trade off. The difference I see personally is that we can live in a bigger, nicer house, in a safer neighborhood, for less than half the cost of the nicer Chicago suburbs. We sold a house recently for $425 K. 4 bedrooms, 3 full baths, huge landscaped lot. Our property taxes were $6k a year. That same house in my sister's town of Downers Grove would have cost us $700-$800K and our property tax on that house would have been closer to $16 K. So we can enjoy a comparable lifestyle for far less money. And we pay no State income tax. To each his own. We loved Chicago as teens and 20 somethings. Got less enamored once we bought a house and were paying those property taxes. Couldn't stand it by the time we turned 50. We'd never move back. Not even if Mayor Munchkin gave us the keys to a free house. Miss the pizza and the Italian beefs and Ricobene's breaded steak sandwiches.


In lieu of providing any actual data to support your stance, you have a bunch of anecdotes and opinions (from 15 years ago). It’s ok to prefer living somewhere else, but just hand waving away actual facts kind of shows your bias.

I live in a $600k single-family home in Chicago. I pay $7k in property taxes and have good public schools. A lot can change in 15 years.

“The education stats are skewed.” - How? By looking at the whole state rather than just suburbs? Sounds like the opposite of skewed to me.

“Eliminate the Rio Grande Area and out stats look better.” - Why would we ignore parts of a state when measuring the impact of a states policies? What an odd comment to make while trying to explain how great your state is.

Medical centers - Northwestern is ranked #10 in the country and Rush is ranked #17. Houston Methodist is #20. https://health.usnews.com/health-care/best-hospitals/articles/best-hospitals-honor-roll-and-overview

I get that you prefer Texas, more power to you, but at least provide some data for your stances. Trying to throw out parts of the state to make it seem better pretty much proves my point that taxes are so low because state doesn’t invest in things that make working class people’s lives better (transportation, healthcare, education).


This is an interesting debate you are having. I will say, if you pay only 7k in property taxes with good schools on a SFH in Chicago, you are in the 1%. I don't know how you pulled that off. My mom is in Morgan Park and hers continually rise. She's over 13k on a property that cost her 170k 20 years ago and they're pushing for another property tax increase. Look at an area like Homewood Flossmoor if you want to go suburban and the property taxes there are outrageous.

The thing not making this an apples to apples comparison is that Chicago skews the income data in Illinois. In several different areas in the state of Texas, you can make that 60k average. I can go to Dallas, Austin, Houston, Waco, San Antonio, El Paso and make around that much money. I eliminate one of those regions and the state is still at the 60k average. You eliminate the Chicagoland area and Illinois falls flat on it's face.
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Re: OT: Illinois fair tax: yes or no? 

Post#142 » by dougthonus » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:10 pm

moorhosj wrote:In lieu of providing any actual data to support your stance, you have a bunch of anecdotes and opinions (from 15 years ago). It’s ok to prefer living somewhere else, but just hand waving away actual facts kind of shows your bias. For example, I live in a $600k single-family home in Chicago (Old Irving Park neighborhood). I pay $7k in property taxes and have good public schools. Can you share the town or neighborhood of your recently sold house? It's hard to compare it to Downers Grove homes without knowing the average income, education level, school districts, etc.


How big is your 600k house? You may have low property taxes for the dollar property of your house, but its most likely that you are paying 2-3x as much for the value of your house as the same square footage would be in most areas. Either that or you have some crazy anomaly in property taxes. My property taxes are about 2.5x yours and my house is around the same cost in the suburbs.
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Re: OT: Illinois fair tax: yes or no? 

Post#143 » by prolific passer » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:16 pm

nitetrain8603 wrote:
moorhosj wrote:
Almost Retired wrote:Having lived in Chicago area for half my life and now in Texas for the past 15 years I think the statistics you mention don't tell the story because they are influenced by other factors. Like Transportion. We live in the Austin area. Rush hour driving is no fun, but it's not nearly as bad as Chicagoland. And that's without adding snow and ice in the winter. Chicagoland does have better public transportation because it's more condensed. Most of Texas is too spread out to make that work for us. Outside the cities I think Texas in general has much better roads than Illinois. Health care access in our larger towns and cities are just fine. And as I work in the health care field it is my observation that hospital quality is very high in Austin, Dallas, San Antonio and Houston. Our rural areas are not as well served simply because of how spread out Texas is. We have counties bigger than Rhode Island. It's an 800 mile drive from Texarkana to El Paso (east to west). I would match many of our urban Medical Centers against any in Illinois. The Education stats are skewed. Our suburban schools are excellent. As good as any public schools in Illinois. And the University of Texas system is much larger, much better funded, and higher rated in many fields than the Univ of Illinois system. Our health and educational statistics suffer due to the Rio Grande Valley area. Too many non English speaking immigrants down there. Hundreds of thousand of illegals. There is serious poverty down there in the border counties. Cartel crime. Eliminate the Rio Brande Valley and our health, education and education statistics would be much better. We have brutal summers. You have brutal winters. That's a trade off. The difference I see personally is that we can live in a bigger, nicer house, in a safer neighborhood, for less than half the cost of the nicer Chicago suburbs. We sold a house recently for $425 K. 4 bedrooms, 3 full baths, huge landscaped lot. Our property taxes were $6k a year. That same house in my sister's town of Downers Grove would have cost us $700-$800K and our property tax on that house would have been closer to $16 K. So we can enjoy a comparable lifestyle for far less money. And we pay no State income tax. To each his own. We loved Chicago as teens and 20 somethings. Got less enamored once we bought a house and were paying those property taxes. Couldn't stand it by the time we turned 50. We'd never move back. Not even if Mayor Munchkin gave us the keys to a free house. Miss the pizza and the Italian beefs and Ricobene's breaded steak sandwiches.


In lieu of providing any actual data to support your stance, you have a bunch of anecdotes and opinions (from 15 years ago). It’s ok to prefer living somewhere else, but just hand waving away actual facts kind of shows your bias.

I live in a $600k single-family home in Chicago. I pay $7k in property taxes and have good public schools. A lot can change in 15 years.

“The education stats are skewed.” - How? By looking at the whole state rather than just suburbs? Sounds like the opposite of skewed to me.

“Eliminate the Rio Grande Area and out stats look better.” - Why would we ignore parts of a state when measuring the impact of a states policies? What an odd comment to make while trying to explain how great your state is.

Medical centers - Northwestern is ranked #10 in the country and Rush is ranked #17. Houston Methodist is #20. https://health.usnews.com/health-care/best-hospitals/articles/best-hospitals-honor-roll-and-overview

I get that you prefer Texas, more power to you, but at least provide some data for your stances. Trying to throw out parts of the state to make it seem better pretty much proves my point that taxes are so low because state doesn’t invest in things that make working class people’s lives better (transportation, healthcare, education).


This is an interesting debate you are having. I will say, if you pay only 7k in property taxes with good schools on a SFH in Chicago, you are in the 1%. I don't know how you pulled that off. My mom is in Morgan Park and hers continually rise. She's over 13k on a property that cost her 170k 20 years ago and they're pushing for another property tax increase. Look at an area like Homewood Flossmoor if you want to go suburban and the property taxes there are outrageous.

The thing not making this an apples to apples comparison is that Chicago skews the income data in Illinois. In several different areas in the state of Texas, you can make that 60k average. I can go to Dallas, Austin, Houston, Waco, San Antonio, El Paso and make around that much money. I eliminate one of those regions and the state is still at the 60k average. You eliminate the Chicagoland area and Illinois falls flat on it's face.

Could Chicagoland survive without the rest of Illinois?
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Re: OT: Illinois fair tax: yes or no? 

Post#144 » by nitetrain8603 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:26 pm

prolific passer wrote:
nitetrain8603 wrote:
moorhosj wrote:
In lieu of providing any actual data to support your stance, you have a bunch of anecdotes and opinions (from 15 years ago). It’s ok to prefer living somewhere else, but just hand waving away actual facts kind of shows your bias.

I live in a $600k single-family home in Chicago. I pay $7k in property taxes and have good public schools. A lot can change in 15 years.

“The education stats are skewed.” - How? By looking at the whole state rather than just suburbs? Sounds like the opposite of skewed to me.

“Eliminate the Rio Grande Area and out stats look better.” - Why would we ignore parts of a state when measuring the impact of a states policies? What an odd comment to make while trying to explain how great your state is.

Medical centers - Northwestern is ranked #10 in the country and Rush is ranked #17. Houston Methodist is #20. https://health.usnews.com/health-care/best-hospitals/articles/best-hospitals-honor-roll-and-overview

I get that you prefer Texas, more power to you, but at least provide some data for your stances. Trying to throw out parts of the state to make it seem better pretty much proves my point that taxes are so low because state doesn’t invest in things that make working class people’s lives better (transportation, healthcare, education).


This is an interesting debate you are having. I will say, if you pay only 7k in property taxes with good schools on a SFH in Chicago, you are in the 1%. I don't know how you pulled that off. My mom is in Morgan Park and hers continually rise. She's over 13k on a property that cost her 170k 20 years ago and they're pushing for another property tax increase. Look at an area like Homewood Flossmoor if you want to go suburban and the property taxes there are outrageous.

The thing not making this an apples to apples comparison is that Chicago skews the income data in Illinois. In several different areas in the state of Texas, you can make that 60k average. I can go to Dallas, Austin, Houston, Waco, San Antonio, El Paso and make around that much money. I eliminate one of those regions and the state is still at the 60k average. You eliminate the Chicagoland area and Illinois falls flat on it's face.

Could Chicagoland survive without the rest of Illinois?


As it currently exists, yes, I believe so.
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Re: OT: Illinois fair tax: yes or no? 

Post#145 » by prolific passer » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:32 pm

nitetrain8603 wrote:
prolific passer wrote:
nitetrain8603 wrote:
This is an interesting debate you are having. I will say, if you pay only 7k in property taxes with good schools on a SFH in Chicago, you are in the 1%. I don't know how you pulled that off. My mom is in Morgan Park and hers continually rise. She's over 13k on a property that cost her 170k 20 years ago and they're pushing for another property tax increase. Look at an area like Homewood Flossmoor if you want to go suburban and the property taxes there are outrageous.

The thing not making this an apples to apples comparison is that Chicago skews the income data in Illinois. In several different areas in the state of Texas, you can make that 60k average. I can go to Dallas, Austin, Houston, Waco, San Antonio, El Paso and make around that much money. I eliminate one of those regions and the state is still at the 60k average. You eliminate the Chicagoland area and Illinois falls flat on it's face.

Could Chicagoland survive without the rest of Illinois?


As it currently exists, yes, I believe so.

I guess the only way to know is to separate the 2 and see who survives the best without the other.
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Re: OT: Illinois fair tax: yes or no? 

Post#146 » by nitetrain8603 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:52 pm

prolific passer wrote:
nitetrain8603 wrote:
prolific passer wrote:Could Chicagoland survive without the rest of Illinois?


As it currently exists, yes, I believe so.

I guess the only way to know is to separate the 2 and see who survives the best without the other.


So how do we get the process started :lol:
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Re: OT: Illinois fair tax: yes or no? 

Post#147 » by prolific passer » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:00 pm

nitetrain8603 wrote:
prolific passer wrote:
nitetrain8603 wrote:
As it currently exists, yes, I believe so.

I guess the only way to know is to separate the 2 and see who survives the best without the other.


So how do we get the process started :lol:

Call Bugs Bunny. He was able to separate Florida. He owes Illinois for borrowing Jordan that one time.
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Re: OT: Illinois fair tax: yes or no? 

Post#148 » by moorhosj » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:38 pm

dougthonus wrote:
moorhosj wrote:In lieu of providing any actual data to support your stance, you have a bunch of anecdotes and opinions (from 15 years ago). It’s ok to prefer living somewhere else, but just hand waving away actual facts kind of shows your bias. For example, I live in a $600k single-family home in Chicago (Old Irving Park neighborhood). I pay $7k in property taxes and have good public schools. Can you share the town or neighborhood of your recently sold house? It's hard to compare it to Downers Grove homes without knowing the average income, education level, school districts, etc.


How big is your 600k house? You may have low property taxes for the dollar property of your house, but its most likely that you are paying 2-3x as much for the value of your house as the same square footage would be in most areas. Either that or you have some crazy anomaly in property taxes. My property taxes are about 2.5x yours and my house is around the same cost in the suburbs.


It’s a 3 bed 2 bath with about 1,600 square feet, plus a finished basement. it’s also 110 years old and has a huge “finished” backyard (garden, fireplace, pergola, dining area, 2.5 car garage). There’s 2 Metra lines and the blue line within 10 minute walk. The Kennedy is 5 minutes away. We have 4 parks and a library within 10 minute walks. The schools are just ok (hopefully improving), but not as good as a similarly priced suburbs. Lots of rehabs going on all around.

We also spent a long time finding this area. The goal was keeping our monthly mortgage payments under $3k. That ruled out super high property tax places like Oak Park or anywhere north of the city and high property value places like Lincoln Square of Logan Square in the city.

That said, my property taxes are likely to jump quite a bit the next time we get assessed, probably to $9k, which will put me over $3k/month. The city does actually have lower property tax rates than the surrounding areas, which a lot of people don’t realize.
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Re: OT: Illinois fair tax: yes or no? 

Post#149 » by dougthonus » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:44 pm

moorhosj wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
moorhosj wrote:In lieu of providing any actual data to support your stance, you have a bunch of anecdotes and opinions (from 15 years ago). It’s ok to prefer living somewhere else, but just hand waving away actual facts kind of shows your bias. For example, I live in a $600k single-family home in Chicago (Old Irving Park neighborhood). I pay $7k in property taxes and have good public schools. Can you share the town or neighborhood of your recently sold house? It's hard to compare it to Downers Grove homes without knowing the average income, education level, school districts, etc.


How big is your 600k house? You may have low property taxes for the dollar property of your house, but its most likely that you are paying 2-3x as much for the value of your house as the same square footage would be in most areas. Either that or you have some crazy anomaly in property taxes. My property taxes are about 2.5x yours and my house is around the same cost in the suburbs.


It’s a 3 bed 2 bath with about 1,600 square feet, plus a finished basement. it’s also 110 years old and has a huge “finished” backyard (garden, fireplace, pergola, dining area, 2.5 car garage). There’s 2 Metra lines and the blue line within 10 minute walk. The Kennedy is 5 minutes away. We have 4 parks and a library within 10 minute walks. The schools are just ok (hopefully improving), but not as good as a similarly priced suburbs. Lots of rehabs going on all around.

We also spent a long time finding this area. The goal was keeping our monthly mortgage payments under $3k. That ruled out super high property tax places like Oak Park or anywhere north of the city and high property value places like Lincoln Square of Logan Square in the city.

That said, my property taxes are likely to jump quite a bit the next time we get assessed, probably to $9k, which will put me over $3k/month. The city does actually have lower property tax rates than the surrounding areas, which a lot of people don’t realize.


You're paying about 450k of your 600k for location. So it makes sense that your property taxes are low, and you certainly aren't getting a bargain vs other places in the country which is what I thought the discussion was about. Most places 600k is getting you a house at least twice as big. A brand new development house for 600k probably if you aren't paying a location premium is probably 4500 square feet with premier customizations in all the kitchens / bathrooms.

This isn't to knock your choice of where to live, that location might allow you to have a much better paying job and be extremely valuable to you, and you may not really want more space or need more space, so this is the perfect place for you. If comparing costs in Illinois vs Texas that isn't a compelling argument to say your property taxes are low though.
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Re: OT: Illinois fair tax: yes or no? 

Post#150 » by moorhosj » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:34 pm

dougthonus wrote:You're paying about 450k of your 600k for location. So it makes sense that your property taxes are low, and you certainly aren't getting a bargain vs other places in the country which is what I thought the discussion was about. Most places 600k is getting you a house at least twice as big. A brand new development house for 600k probably if you aren't paying a location premium is probably 4500 square feet with premier customizations in all the kitchens / bathrooms.


If you pay a location discount, you could have a 6000 square feet and a butler. Which is why we have the phrase “location, location, location.” Comparing my location to other comparable cities, I am absolutely getting a bargain. Try finding a single-family home, in an established neighborhood, for under $750k in Seattle, San Fran, or New York. Comparing the price of a home in one of the worlds alpha cities, to some new development in The Woodlands isn’t really apples to oranges.

You are correct that I equate value to quality of life rather than size.
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Re: OT: Illinois fair tax: yes or no? 

Post#151 » by micromonkey » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:52 pm

Without derailing too much
Having lived in Chicago proper, Glenview , St Charles and Naperville
Chicago proper pays less per assessed value-possibly due to land size? I had a 2 flat in Lincoln square and it was under 6k tax But no matter what you have to contest every chance-either by yourself or a guy who takes a 1 time cut of savings on a “win”

I currently have a 5 BR on 1/2 acre in glenview (it’s older and 2400sf) and I pay $10k

But you can find 4br (more sf) for 8k ish on less land.
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Re: OT: Illinois fair tax: yes or no? 

Post#152 » by dougthonus » Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:36 pm

moorhosj wrote:
dougthonus wrote:You're paying about 450k of your 600k for location. So it makes sense that your property taxes are low, and you certainly aren't getting a bargain vs other places in the country which is what I thought the discussion was about. Most places 600k is getting you a house at least twice as big. A brand new development house for 600k probably if you aren't paying a location premium is probably 4500 square feet with premier customizations in all the kitchens / bathrooms.


If you pay a location discount, you could have a 6000 square feet and a butler. Which is why we have the phrase “location, location, location.” Comparing my location to other comparable cities, I am absolutely getting a bargain. Try finding a single-family home, in an established neighborhood, for under $750k in Seattle, San Fran, or New York. Comparing the price of a home in one of the worlds alpha cities, to some new development in The Woodlands isn’t really apples to oranges.

You are correct that I equate value to quality of life rather than size.


:dontknow:

The conversation was in comparison to cost in Texas. You made it sound like you have some really cheap deal by discussing your property taxes and ignoring the fact that your house cost you about 4x as much as its fair value due to the location.

Again, nothing wrong with what you're doing. I have lots of friends who've made similar decisions about where to live and completely get it. I just wouldn't say you've made a frugal decision when discussing costs of Illinois vs Texas.
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Re: OT: Illinois fair tax: yes or no? 

Post#153 » by moorhosj » Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:10 pm

dougthonus wrote::dontknow:

The conversation was in comparison to cost in Texas. You made it sound like you have some really cheap deal by discussing your property taxes and ignoring the fact that your house cost you about 4x as much as its fair value due to the location.

Again, nothing wrong with what you're doing. I have lots of friends who've made similar decisions about where to live and completely get it. I just wouldn't say you've made a frugal decision when discussing costs of Illinois vs Texas.


The conversation was about property taxes, so I shared mine. I never claimed it was frugal, nor can you judge that for my personal situation. No need for the condescension.

Can you share your “fair value” calculator?
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Re: OT: Illinois fair tax: yes or no? 

Post#154 » by Almost Retired » Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:13 pm

It is hard to compare apples to oranges. But in regard to value and costs between Texas and Chicago you can look up the house we just sold in early September: 2804 Tinmouth Street, Austin, Texas 78748. We bought the house about 15 years ago for $225,000. We just sold it for $425K. Got full asking price and it sold in 3 days on the MILS. Compare the house and lot size with what you have in the Chicagoland area. And believe it of not Austin has running water, libraries, The University of Texas, high tech companies, sewer lines, grocery stores, roads, bridges, and schools. Some very good schools from what I hear. We've lived in 3 primary places over the last 35 years. Portland, Oregon....Chicago...and Austin. Portland was the cheapest when we moved there in the 1980s from Chicago. Our first house set us back a whopping $77,500. Portland, the part of it that hasn't been burned to the ground by Antifa, is no longer cheap. Chicago was never cheap, at least since the 1970s. And Austin has gotten more expensive. But having lived in all 3 I would venture to guess that the cost of living is lower here in Austin. But prices are rising fast. Tesla is really causing a big spike with all the people they are bringing in from California and Nevada. If they also locate their battery plant here in the Austin area they might employ up to 8 or 9 thousand people. And they pay well. Lot of high paying jobs here in Austin. My wife and I both earn well over $100 K.
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Re: OT: Illinois fair tax: yes or no? 

Post#155 » by dougthonus » Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:17 pm

moorhosj wrote:The conversation was about property taxes, so I shared mine. I never claimed it was frugal, nor can you judge that for my personal situation. No need for the condescension.


Not sure why you think I'm being condescending or judging you. I literally said in both posts, that I am not judging you for your choices and have friends that make the same ones as you. I'm not sure how I could make it more clear that there is no judgment on what you have done with your life or where you choose to live. I also pay a location premium on my house too (not as big as yours, but certainly bigger than if I lived another 20 miles west), so I'm not at all suggesting this is a bad thing.

It sure appeared that you were bringing up your property taxes to suggest that property taxes in Illinois are not high relative to Texas (which was the conversation) or not high in general. If that wasn't your intent, my apologies. Property taxes in Illinois (relative to Texas anyway) are very high for the same caliber house. Granted, I'm not saying I'd go move to Texas or that this is an important difference maker (or even a major difference maker) between the two location. What I know about Texas isn't that appealing to me as a place to live, but I don't know much about it. Personally, my work ties me to Chicago/NY unless I want to take a significant pay cut.

Can you share your “fair value” calculator?


Cost of building a house of your size / quality is the fair value of the house, the rest of the cost is the value of the location. Don't think it's that complicated.
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Re: OT: Illinois fair tax: yes or no? 

Post#156 » by moorhosj » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:02 pm

dougthonus wrote:Not sure why you think I'm being condescending or judging you. I literally said in both posts, that I am not judging you for your choices and have friends that make the same ones as you. I'm not sure how I could make it more clear that there is no judgment on what you have done with your life or where you choose to live. I also pay a location premium on my house too (not as big as yours, but certainly bigger than if I lived another 20 miles west), so I'm not at all suggesting this is a bad thing.

It sure appeared that you were bringing up your property taxes to suggest that property taxes in Illinois are not high relative to Texas (which was the conversation) or not high in general. If that wasn't your intent, my apologies. Property taxes in Illinois (relative to Texas anyway) are very high for the same caliber house. Granted, I'm not saying I'd go move to Texas or that this is an important difference maker (or even a major difference maker) between the two location. What I know about Texas isn't that appealing to me as a place to live, but I don't know much about it. Personally, my work ties me to Chicago/NY unless I want to take a significant pay cut.


Median home price:
31. Illinois - $202,675
28. Texas - $207,301
https://www.businessinsider.com/average-home-prices-in-every-state-washington-dc-2019-6?op=1#28-texas-207301-24

Median property tax rate:
6. Illinois 1.73%
3. Texas 1.81%
http://www.tax-rates.org/taxtables/property-tax-by-state

Obviously, when you add in the state income tax, Illinois residents pay more taxes. That was never in question. The overlooked question is whether those taxes lead to better citizen quality of life. I was trying to bring some data to that question as it related to Texas. It seems like the discussion could use a little more data and a little less political ideology (not aimed at anyone specifically).

Anyways, apologies if I misread your intent.
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Re: OT: Illinois fair tax: yes or no? 

Post#157 » by dougthonus » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:19 pm

moorhosj wrote:Median home price:
31. Illinois - $202,675
28. Texas - $207,301
https://www.businessinsider.com/average-home-prices-in-every-state-washington-dc-2019-6?op=1#28-texas-207301-24

Median property tax rate:
6. Illinois 1.73%
3. Texas 1.81%
http://www.tax-rates.org/taxtables/property-tax-by-state

Obviously, when you add in the state income tax, Illinois residents pay more taxes. That was never in question. The overlooked question is whether those taxes lead to better citizen quality of life. I was trying to bring some data to that question as it related to Texas. It seems like the discussion could use a little more data and a little less political ideology (not aimed at anyone specifically).

Anyways, apologies if I misread your intent.


Certainly appreciate looking at data as well.

I'm not sure what exactly the median price tells you in either area really. What is the median house in Illinois vs Texas? Is it a far suburbs house in Chicago? Is it a downtown house in San Antonio? It's kind of a weird apples and oranges thing. Though both these numbers would indicate pretty similar costs.

Based on a little bit of looking, there's a much bigger cost premium to live near Chicago or in Chicago than there is for Houston or Dallas (and my assumption is anywhere else in Texas) which wouldn't be reflected in the medians. I assume the job market is better in Chicago though to help compensate for that. In the end, these things have a lot of forces at work to balance themselves out to some degree.

Chicago has interesting property tax, because the property tax is largely based on home size/land size and not just value though maybe that is simply how property taxes work everywhere. It feels weird to me, but I've never looked into it in other states to know if its special weird or simply the way everyone does it weird.
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Re: OT: Illinois fair tax: yes or no? 

Post#158 » by moorhosj » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:20 am

dougthonus wrote:Certainly appreciate looking at data as well.

I'm not sure what exactly the median price tells you in either area really. What is the median house in Illinois vs Texas? Is it a far suburbs house in Chicago? Is it a downtown house in San Antonio? It's kind of a weird apples and oranges thing. Though both these numbers would indicate pretty similar costs.


The median shows the value where 50% of the homes are above and 50% are below. Pretty much the gold standard of comparing two things with large data sets. It’s relevant because the discussion was about Illinois and Texas. It incorporates all the little edge cases you keep trying to bring up by highlighting specific cities. It shows that the median person spends pretty much the same amount and pays pretty much the same property taxes. That’s it.

dougthonus wrote: Based on a little bit of looking, there's a much bigger cost premium to live near Chicago or in Chicago than there is for Houston or Dallas (and my assumption is anywhere else in Texas) which wouldn't be reflected in the medians. I assume the job market is better in Chicago though to help compensate for that. In the end, these things have a lot of forces at work to balance themselves out to some degree.


It would absolutely be captured in the medians because 70% of Illinois lives in Chicagoland. As a note, Texas and Illinois are very similar from and urban/rural split perspective. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-urban-or-rural-is-your-state-and-what-does-that-mean-for-the-2020-election/
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Re: OT: Illinois fair tax: yes or no? 

Post#159 » by dougthonus » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:17 am

moorhosj wrote:The median shows the value where 50% of the homes are above and 50% are below. Pretty much the gold standard of comparing two things with large data sets. It’s relevant because the discussion was about Illinois and Texas. It incorporates all the little edge cases you keep trying to bring up by highlighting specific cities. It shows that the median person spends pretty much the same amount and pays pretty much the same property taxes. That’s it.


Median is the exact middle value. Depending what you're doing it may or may not have a lot of value. I'm certainly not saying its worthless, but for those to be comparable the median house would also have to be the same quality.

It would absolutely be captured in the medians because 70% of Illinois lives in Chicagoland. As a note, Texas and Illinois are very similar from and urban/rural split perspective. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-urban-or-rural-is-your-state-and-what-does-that-mean-for-the-2020-election/


Most definitely that would not be captured by the median. The median literally looks at only one data point at all and throws away all other data. If there were 10x as many million dollar plus houses in Illinois vs Texas, that wouldn't show up in a median as an example.

Not saying I know if it is that way or not, just saying, looking around at housing prices by clicking around some real estate sites, I didn't see things similar to Chicago where you didn't see the same location premiums that I see in Chicago, but that could very much be because I know where to look around Chicago for such places and not around Dallas/Houston (which were the two cities I looked at).

Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, just saying that glancing around and looking at home prices and things like that with a tiny bit of research, Dallas and Houston seemed much cheaper for similar caliber houses and left you much closer to the city. Granted, I don't know what public transit in those cities is like or quality of life is like or anything else. Not suggesting its necessarily an equal situation or anything.
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Re: OT: Illinois fair tax: yes or no? 

Post#160 » by Almost Retired » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:28 pm

The median price of homes between 2 distinctly different locations is not a very useful tool. An assessment of the value you get in return for price is left out. If my 4 bedroom, 3 bath brick home on a 9,000 sq ft fully landscaped lot cost $425K, and a comparable house in Downers Grove, Illinois costs $625K...who is getting the better value? (I use Downers Grove as my example because my sister and her family live there and I am familiar with the town.) Again, Goodle the house we just sold: 2804 Tinmouth, in Austin, TX 78748. The Zillow listing is still up there. Compare it to your house in Chicagoland. And Austin is no backwoods shanty town. It has every amenity that Chicago has except Professional Sport Teams and lakefront beaches. Having lived in both places (our last Chicago house was near Addison and Central Park) there is no comparison in terms of value received per Dollar spent. You can live in a nicer house, on a bigger lot, for less money in the purchase price and less money spent yearly on taxes in Texas than you can in Chicagoland. And you can leave your snow shovels, windshield ice scrapers and sidewalk rock salt behind for your neighbors. In my line of work I make approximately the same whether I work in Texas or Illinois. By living in Texas, with no income tax and much lower COMPARABLE housing prices, our salary Dollars go farther. So I have more left at the end of the month to invest and save. And we want for nothing (except those addicting Ricobene's breaded steak sandwiches dipped in tomato sauce and the Pizza). I'm not totally down on Chicago. I wish the crime rate were lower, and from a recent report on the news they seem to have a rat problem....but it is still a world class city. But Covid is going to take a toll on all big cities. Public transportation is going to be suspect as a driver of virus spread. And more people are going to be allowed to work from home, negating the need to live close into a central business district. And lastly, some of the reasons for living in the city...the theaters, restaurants and bars might not survive the pandemic. If people don't revert back to their old ways then those amenities might not be available. Many are hanging by a thread and their survival is touch and go. If the fall and winter bring a severe Covid resurgence those communal gathering places will not survive. Further reducing the attractiveness of city living.

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