OT: Illinois fair tax: yes or no?

[2018C3]

I'm not nearly as wealthy as my parents, and that is a common trend. My dad is also more educated than me, and was lucky to spend his whole career at one place.

I have plenty of first generation immigrant friends, who are in the same place financially as me. and have exceeded there parents wealth.

This is still a land of opportunity. Americans born kids like me have just got lazy. And others who come here are outworking us in educational opportunities.

In today's world, everyone has to step up there game, because there are people who are way more hungry for a piece of the pie that is available to anyone who works for it.

[TheStig]

Not a kid. I’m 34, and I’ve been doing this since my mid 20s. I do have access to the books as I am on the board of directors and have a profit share in the company. Additionally, I manage the company cashflow, inventory, and production. I’m not sure how I gave you the impression I was a child... maybe Bc I have parents? I don’t know.

Additionally, referring to the other post you made, the building/property tax does not come from the business or it’s profit. The building is rented to the business, just so happens that the building is owned by my parents under a separate entity... it’s ok, I know you were speaking from a place of ignorance.

The profits a business makes is taxed as personal income to the shareholders. When I sat with my accountant we had a long conversation, as I was offered a choice between stock and a profit share.

I’m not sure why you’re struggling to wrap your head around this. My parents own 100% of the company and must pay personal income tax on all of the profit from the company. That’s how it works.

Yes, how can I call you a kid, you've worked for mommy and daddy your whole professional life and speak in vague business terms and don't really understand it. But that's ok. It's a good gig. Good for you. Don't complain about the golden goose. Just be smart with your money.

I didn’t know my whole professional life started at 26.

What vague business terms have I used?

I’m a kid because I work for stayed with the family business? You’re a clown. You don’t know a thing about what our business is, what my education is, what my previous background is prior to working for the company, or what the business looked like when I started and how it’s changed and what role I’ve had in it.

No, but you seem to know how the inner workings of our business works... like your brilliant point about how the business loses profit paying the taxes on a building it doesn’t own.

I play a large role in a multimillion dollar company, and have had in depth conversations with the accountant for that company. You’re sitting behind a keyboard pretending to know things you don’t.

Nothing changes the fact that private business owners have to pay income tax on their company profits. Maybe read up on it before you spout nonsense.

https://smallbusiness.chron.com/pay-personal-income-taxes-own-own-small-business-57158.html?back=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fsearch%3Fclient%3Dsafari%26as_qdr%3Dall%26as_occt%3Dany%26safe%3Dactive%26as_q%3DDo+private+business+owners+have+to+pay+a+personal+income+tax+on+their+companies+profit%26channel%3Daplab%26source%3Da-app1%26hl%3Den

If you can't respond without being insulting just don't respond -Doug

[2018C3]

Its never a cool look to make fun of some one else, just because your jealous.

My parents taught me at early age everyone gets dealt a different hand.

It's what you do going forward that matters. My dad told me at early age to take life in my own hands, and to never expect anything for free. If you want something others have, just work hard and earn it yourself.

I believe everyone who can read this is capable in earning what ever they want to work towards, and often times that takes sacrifices.

[2018C3]

I had a friend who inherited a large fortune from Stanley tools, By his late 20's he blew it all. I have another who's dad was predominate doctor who passed when he was in high school. By the age of 20 my friend had his own house and died of a drug overdose a few years later.

I also have another friend who came from nothing, with drug addicted parents and has become very successful. the right way.

I have other friends who grew family businesses.

Everyone's future is up for grabs and in there own hands. If your not happy where you are, point the finger at yourself and ask "What can I do to change this" If you can't come up with any answers, try to think a little harder.

Every failure I have had in life, I believe I could or should have done something differently.

[dougthonus]

This is still a land of opportunity. Americans born kids like me have just got lazy. And others who come here are outworking us in educational opportunities.

That's the problem, it isn't nearly as much the land of opportunity that it once was. Our money all goes to capital providers instead of laborers and the bar to take advantage of this opportunity is higher and higher than it ever was, and the margin to take advantage of it is less and less.

In today's world, everyone has to step up there game, because there are people who are way more hungry for a piece of the pie that is available to anyone who works for it.

While you can overcome the above by being very smart, making good decisions, and working hard, if everyone did that, those opportunities would dry up very fast too. The problem fundamentally is we have shifted massive amounts of wealthy from the poor/middle class to the wealthy. There is much less class mobility and it is much harder to attain it than in the past.

People aren't lazier than their parents, they have less opportunity. 50 years ago, you could get a good job with no college, no resume, and just walking up to places and asking. The bar to get a good job today is just 10x higher. The lie the wealthy have told the poor and middle class is that everyone just needs to pick themselves up by the boot straps and work harder, but really they're just hoarding all the money/wealth.

[dougthonus]

I’m a kid because I work for stayed with the family business? You’re a clown. You don’t know a thing about what our business is, what my education is, what my previous background is prior to working for the company, or what the business looked like when I started and how it’s changed and what role I’ve had in it.

If I read this right and you're a big party of the family business and are now sharing heavily in the success then there is no need to apologize. Nor is there any reason to apologize for your family's success. If you've worked hard to help the family business grow then good for you, and you deserve what you have gotten by doing so.

What is worth recognizing is that you also had an opportunity that is like top 1% out there. You shouldn't be embarrassed or ashamed of that, you should take it and run. I hope you have and that you're going to be making 1m a year one day because you did. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it isn't a path other people can follow. You are blessed to have the chance for your skill/effort pay off so nicely.

Success is typically based on a pyramid of opportunity, skill, and effort. I'm sure if you are helping the business out that you have developed the appropriate skill and put in the appropriate effort. The one thing in life that doesn't balance out is opportunity. Someone else who is skilled and puts in effort probably lands themselves a place where they make 100k a year even without opportunity at the start. Someone who has the right breaks through friends, family, or picking the right industry early on or whatever can do much, much better because of opportunity that was somewhat dumb luck.

From my own personal story, I had a similar situation in my youth, unlike you, I did not take that opportunity and do not work with my family business that my grandfather started (my mom doesn't work there either, but all my uncles do). Had I gone that route, looking back at it, I'd probably be about 10m dollars richer (I suppose 5m since I'd have lost half in my divorce). I wish I could go back in time and smack the hell out of young me who wanted to stand on his own two feet. I'm still skilled and work hard, and have had a great deal of success in life and no complaints, but boy would I have loved a do-over on that one where my skill and hard work would have benefited my family greatly as well as myself. The family business doesn't have any young leadership and is desperate for it, and I'd easily be the successor if I had gone there.

People get opportunity for all kinds of reasons, and you can cultivate opportunity if you want to. I ended up cultivating my own opportunity through my own work ethic and still being fairly successful, but I will never replicate what was given to me at the start and I ignored and didn't take.

I don't know what the point of this is, I guess it's that I would never tell you that you don't deserve what you have or haven't worked hard for it, but also that you should appreciate how fortunate you are (and I'm sure you do).

[jmajew]

This is still a land of opportunity. Americans born kids like me have just got lazy. And others who come here are outworking us in educational opportunities.

That's the problem, it isn't nearly as much the land of opportunity that it once was. Our money all goes to capital providers instead of laborers and the bar to take advantage of this opportunity is higher and higher than it ever was, and the margin to take advantage of it is less and less.

In today's world, everyone has to step up there game, because there are people who are way more hungry for a piece of the pie that is available to anyone who works for it.

While you can overcome the above by being very smart, making good decisions, and working hard, if everyone did that, those opportunities would dry up very fast too. The problem fundamentally is we have shifted massive amounts of wealthy from the poor/middle class to the wealthy. There is much less class mobility and it is much harder to attain it than in the past.

People aren't lazier than their parents, they have less opportunity. 50 years ago, you could get a good job with no college, no resume, and just walking up to places and asking. The bar to get a good job today is just 10x higher. The lie the wealthy have told the poor and middle class is that everyone just needs to pick themselves up by the boot straps and work harder, but really they're just hoarding all the money/wealth.

I disagree with a lot of what you just said there. Is it hard to be financially successful? Yes, it is and always has been. I had a big long post about personal experiences, etc but I figured its not always good to share all of that because my personal experiences could be biased.

What I will say is this. I think the fact life expectancy has grown so much has really limited the ability for younger generations to generate wealth. I think the massive amount of wealth transfer that happens when baby boomers pass away will change this drastically. I think millennials will actually fair pretty good in the next decade because at the pace baby boomers are retiring they should not be as affected by the ups and downs of the economy. I can send studies/articles that make these same arguments. Things aren't as bad as they may appear for the younger generations, it may take them a little longer to find good jobs/accumulate wealth but I believe they will be there.

[dougthonus]

I disagree with a lot of what you just said there. Is it hard to be financially successful? Yes, it is and always has been. I had a big long post about personal experiences, etc but I figured its not always good to share all of that because my personal experiences could be biased.

What I will say is this. I think the fact life expectancy has grown so much has really limited the ability for younger generations to generate wealth. I think the massive amount of wealth transfer that happens when baby boomers pass away will change this drastically. I think millennials will actually fair pretty good in the next decade because at the pace baby boomers are retiring they should not be as affected by the ups and downs of the economy. I can send studies/articles that make these same arguments. Things aren't as bad as they may appear for the younger generations, it may take them a little longer to find good jobs/accumulate wealth but I believe they will be there.

This doesn't change that fundamentally things like:
Requirements from getting a good job went from no real requirement to bachelors degree

Cost of education went up by a factor of about 3 compared to median income (going off memory from a study I saw)

Requirements from getting a good job went from wide fields with no experience where you can be trained on the job to narrow fields that you need expertise

Cost of housing has gone up by a factor of about 2 compared to median income (going off memory from a study I saw)

You absolutely can be successful still. I'm not arguing otherwise, but the path to success is radically harder than it used to be. This is due to a few factors that are preventable IMO and other factors that weren't:

Preventable:
1: Making student loans unforgivable and ineligible to be wiped out by bankruptcy. This made cash flows far more certain for institutions and caused them to raise up costs dramatically because it took all the risk out of their cash flow.

2: Systemic transfer of wealth from labor to capital (fall of the unions was a big part). All the non-skilled jobs in this country started being worth a ton less, and instead that money went to corporate profits. This has been great for the stock market and the wealthy (whom now make all their money in capital gains) but has been awful for the people.

3: Tax rates that have been extremely regressive. People look at the income tax brackets and think that the wealthy pay more in taxes, but generally they don't, because the wealthy don't have income from working, they have income from capital which is paid at a lower rate than working income. They've also come up with a complex web of ways to simply avoid taxes all together. Our tax system is generally held up by the wealthy workers (doctors / lawyers) but our most wealthy people are avoiding tax at unprecedented levels rather than paying their share, which puts more burden on everyone else.

Not preventable:
1: Globalization of supply chain has lowered costs and caused the fall of the unions because we could no longer price competitively with overseas goods. This caused cheaper products but overall hurt our jobs.

2: Automation has decimated the amount of jobs that laborers can do. It is coming for more and more retail jobs too (see self checkouts or amazon go's no check out). It's also coming for intellectual jobs soon, entire fields such as accounting could cease to exist in 20 years.

3: The internet has moved shopping away from retail stores, this has made things far cheaper and is far more efficient and also takes far less employees to manage.

Many of these things have really good side effects too. Efficiency lowered prices and brought forth faster innovation and other positive change. I'm not saying it all bad, but there haven't been good checks and balances of how we can keep a working class in good financial condition with these changes.

[Friend_Of_Haley]

What is really amazing about this is a large part of my family are cops and all of them are Republicans and support the right more than anything. However, they are all vehemently against this fair tax. They think taxation is unfair, blah blah blah. What they don't seem to realize that without this increase it will be even harder to pay their pensions/benefits. They would rather see others suffer than them lose what was given to them.

If they were cops for local municipalities, their pensions are locally funded. Now unfortunately MANY towns and cities did the same thing the state did and underfund generous pension promises, but what has to happen on the state level for state pensions basically has to happen like 100 times over for each and ever municipality that underfunded their police and fire. Only difference really is that a local municipality can definitely go bankrupt. TBD if Illinois as a state would eventually be allowed to just go bankrupt.

[Friend_Of_Haley]

- 97% of people will have their taxes go down. Holy crap what a steaming load of crap, yes, we lowered your taxes by 1/10th or 1/20th of a percent just so we can say your taxes will go down. It just insults the hell out of me hearing about it. You used to pay $5000 in taxes? Now you pay $4950. Huge savings.

At any rate, its still probably more fair, and if they removed the marriage penalty and tied it to fixing the pension problem so I was sure our extra money put in was temporary because we resolved our idiocy in terms of spending then I would be a strong yes for it instead of a tentative no.

I definitely agree with the first part. I like a graduated tax, but it should be one where the lowest quartertile of earners should be getting a huge cut, at least back to the 3% it was before the formerly temporary increases went through. Of course that would affect revenue, so they need to actually address the pension liability.

As to the second part and tying it to pension reform. I was a little hung up on that aspect of it before as well. But ultimately I can see why they couldn't tie it together. If you tie both together you chip away at the support of both because you're asking 60% to agree with both at the same time. So it makes most sense to offer up amendments like this one at a time. We can complain about the importance and which should have gone first, but I'm not going to get hung up that they didn't prioritize what I would have first. Just gotta try and put my voice to work that other areas are addressed later.

[Friend_Of_Haley]

I said this before, but instead of taxing the rich to pay for the poor, How about a plan that has no state income tax on households who make less than lets say $30,000 a year. (The actual number could be subjective).

This would allow single family homes, (Often times mothers with Children) to keep more of there income for there family. And also give the younger generation of students a much needed break while trying to achieve success.

A plan like this, would have a greater impact on all the people who need it the most, while encouraging positive growth.

You then also keep corporate interest, and more importantly jobs in Illinois.

People in this situation are not stupid, let them decide how to spend the additional money, and cut out the government overhead that decides how to re-distribute it.

Hell, instead of paying big bucks to government officials to re-distribute funds, Provide state sponsored educational geared daycare facilities for free to lower income family's who choose to take a job. We already have public schools, How about public daycare to give low income parents a much needed break, and also the freedom to succeed so they one day could provide for the family.

That's just one option, I encourage others to think out of the box.

________________________________________________________

I'm sure people will poke and find holes in this idea. If you do please try to present another plan.

That's roughly where my head is at on this, but they need a constitutional amendment first. No, the legislation they passed doesn't do this now, but with the amendment you open up the possibility to have a income tax structure like that down the line.

[dougthonus]

As to the second part and tying it to pension reform. I was a little hung up on that aspect of it before as well. But ultimately I can see why they couldn't tie it together. If you tie both together you chip away at the support of both because you're asking 60% to agree with both at the same time. So it makes most sense to offer up amendments like this one at a time. We can complain about the importance and which should have gone first, but I'm not going to get hung up that they didn't prioritize what I would have first. Just gotta try and put my voice to work that other areas are addressed later.

My problem with this theory is that I see no way they will attempt to actually fix spending once this is in place. They will just continually raise taxes instead. Fixing spending is harder, and they will just refuse to try because they won't need to anymore. Instead they will just make it incredibly toxic to live in this state in the long term would be my guess.

[Friend_Of_Haley]

As to the second part and tying it to pension reform. I was a little hung up on that aspect of it before as well. But ultimately I can see why they couldn't tie it together. If you tie both together you chip away at the support of both because you're asking 60% to agree with both at the same time. So it makes most sense to offer up amendments like this one at a time. We can complain about the importance and which should have gone first, but I'm not going to get hung up that they didn't prioritize what I would have first. Just gotta try and put my voice to work that other areas are addressed later.

My problem with this theory is that I see no way they will attempt to actually fix spending once this is in place. They will just continually raise taxes instead. Fixing spending is harder, and they will just refuse to try because they won't need to anymore. Instead they will just make it incredibly toxic to live in this state in the long term would be my guess.

Well this tax plan isn't going to fix the shortfall, that much is for sure. And you may be right... there's a high likelihood IL just heads down a path to insolvency until they're allowed to just go bankrupt, or voters eventually elect the right mix of lawmakers that propose a balanced path back to solvency (I know think tanks like to pretend there's like a 5-10 year plan, I'm thinking its a 15-20 year plan). If the latter occurs, at least lawmakers have another tool in their chest.

So we'll either have just delayed slightly everyone getting a 8-10% tax rate, or systematic pension reform will be addressed. Allowing the graduated rate won't really change their inability to tax their way out of the liabilities. I don't ultimately think this amendment failing will force current lawmakers hands at other reforms. It will just mean raised rates for all or severe cuts to services.

So I ultimately chose to treat it as a standalone issue. I can see why some can't clear that hurdle. Graduated rate structures can be the fair and right design for a income tax code, and our current lawmakers can be inept and short-sided and use it the wrong way. Both are true and I ultimately didn't feel the need to validate both together.

[dougthonus]

So we'll either have just delayed slightly everyone getting a 8-10% tax rate, or systematic pension reform will be addressed. Allowing the graduated rate won't really change their inability to tax their way out of the liabilities. I don't ultimately think this amendment failing will force current lawmakers hands at other reforms. It will just mean raised rates for all or severe cuts to services.

So I ultimately chose to treat it as a standalone issue. I can see why some can't clear that hurdle. Graduated rate structures can be the fair and right design for a income tax code, and our current lawmakers can be inept and short-sided and use it the wrong way. Both are true and I ultimately didn't feel the need to validate both together.

I totally get this too. I think graduates rates are more fair as well. I'm pro-graduated rates even if at some point my rate went up some, I think its better for the country.

My main fear is that I think we're paying way too much taxes for the services we get already due to poor spending. It's like if you have a gambling addict friend that is maybe going to lose his house due to his bad decisions, so you pay his mortgage but he doesn't quit gambling, and a month later you just need to pay his mortgage again, and instead of him addressing the root problem, you just keep giving him money.

There's no reason our state can't run on probably 15-20% less than current taxes except pensions/corruption/bad decisions. I'm against any move that raises taxes until those issues are addressed, because once we raise taxes then I don't think we will attempt to address those issues anymore, because we will have taken the blow from the dire situation.

We're on path to be one of the worst states in the country for total tax liability (we're already top 10), and so if virtually every other state in the union can figure this out better than us, then I'd push back and say figure out your spending before trying to tax us even worse. I'd guess if this passes, that Illinois, within 10 years, will challenge as the worst state to live in for people making over 150k a year. If that's the case, how many of those people will stay? Especially as jobs become more and more remote.

It will eat away at the tax base, and you will be left with Detroit.

Granted, not passing this doesn't solve the problem either. To solve the problem you need to fix spending. 100% of our focus should be on fixing spending and most of that should be on pension reform and removing corruption (good luck with the second of those things of course).

Anyway, I totally get where you're coming from, I'm torn on it too, because I do think the graduated rate is more fair and is what we should be doing and trying to pressure them into doing the right thing by denying them the easy way out may end up in just having them doing an even worse thing.

[InsideInfo]

I’m a kid because I work for stayed with the family business? You’re a clown. You don’t know a thing about what our business is, what my education is, what my previous background is prior to working for the company, or what the business looked like when I started and how it’s changed and what role I’ve had in it.

If I read this right and you're a big party of the family business and are now sharing heavily in the success then there is no need to apologize. Nor is there any reason to apologize for your family's success. If you've worked hard to help the family business grow then good for you, and you deserve what you have gotten by doing so.

What is worth recognizing is that you also had an opportunity that is like top 1% out there. You shouldn't be embarrassed or ashamed of that, you should take it and run. I hope you have and that you're going to be making 1m a year one day because you did. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it isn't a path other people can follow. You are blessed to have the chance for your skill/effort pay off so nicely.

Success is typically based on a pyramid of opportunity, skill, and effort. I'm sure if you are helping the business out that you have developed the appropriate skill and put in the appropriate effort. The one thing in life that doesn't balance out is opportunity. Someone else who is skilled and puts in effort probably lands themselves a place where they make 100k a year even without opportunity at the start. Someone who has the right breaks through friends, family, or picking the right industry early on or whatever can do much, much better because of opportunity that was somewhat dumb luck.

From my own personal story, I had a similar situation in my youth, unlike you, I did not take that opportunity and do not work with my family business that my grandfather started (my mom doesn't work there either, but all my uncles do). Had I gone that route, looking back at it, I'd probably be about 10m dollars richer (I suppose 5m since I'd have lost half in my divorce). I wish I could go back in time and smack the hell out of young me who wanted to stand on his own two feet. I'm still skilled and work hard, and have had a great deal of success in life and no complaints, but boy would I have loved a do-over on that one where my skill and hard work would have benefited my family greatly as well as myself. The family business doesn't have any young leadership and is desperate for it, and I'd easily be the successor if I had gone there.

People get opportunity for all kinds of reasons, and you can cultivate opportunity if you want to. I ended up cultivating my own opportunity through my own work ethic and still being fairly successful, but I will never replicate what was given to me at the start and I ignored and didn't take.

I don't know what the point of this is, I guess it's that I would never tell you that you don't deserve what you have or haven't worked hard for it, but also that you should appreciate how fortunate you are (and I'm sure you do).

Thanks Doug.

To be clear, the whole reason behind my OP was just to show people that when you raise taxes, it has a real world affect on small business. I think people hear stuff like "it hurts small business" but don't truly understand what happens and how it affects the business.

Its not about how much my family has to pay in taxes... its about how money gets taken out of any small business and handed over to the government.

[MrSparkle]

In the end, the greatest nations in their greatest moments ran on high tax rates that went into education, infrastructure and raising the floor of every citizen’s quality of life. The worst places have large income gaps and major loopholes and corrupt governments that don’t spend fairly on all citizens.

We know that Chicago can you use more money for those things, but we also know that the pensions, infrastructure/road/parking contracts are all majorly appalling.

It’s tough. There’s always a middle-ground; personally I think it’s a fragile time to pass legislation with open consequences. In the end, I don’t think this fair tax is even a game-changer. I feel like the best part in theory is getting more money from the suburban/rural IL upper/middle classes, which has pros and cons. It is frustrating that cities like Chicago generate so much economy yet get criticized by the red trolls in Algonquin and Normal as money leeches.

Honestly, they need to attack the pensions and infrastructure contracts IMO. It’s ridiculous cause any candidate running is at the unions’ mercy. And I think the city needs to figure out a way to improve life on the southside without resorting to Whole Foods in Englewood and an Obama library in Hyde Park. Very uncreative solutions to complicated problems. The amount of disproportionate money spent on police, cyclical-welfare single-mother families and pensions is insane, because we have this crazy cowboy concentration of broken districts across Chicago that require so much money to stay as cyclical dumpster fires, and you’ve got these disenfranchised policemen and city workers who just give up ideologically, morally, and retire early with unsustainable (sometimes multiple) pension programs.

Chicago/IL politics need an Artunas style facelift. The Bulls were pretty much a metaphor for this great city. Great potential, some good moments and ideas in the last 20 years, but the city is in a worse place than it should be. Gen YZers need to educate themselves about this city’s politics, cause I barely knew anyone who voted between 2012-2018. This last mayoral race was pretty bad.

[stl705]

All you need to know about the Fair Tax proposal is this:

Billionaires are spending TONS of money on advertisements for NO. For every commercial I see Telling people to vote YES, I see 100 ads that tell me to vote NO. Take that how you want, and let me know who really wants us to vote Yes and who wants us to vote NO.

[League Circles]

All you need to know about the Fair Tax proposal is this:

Billionaires are spending TONS of money on advertisements for NO. For every commercial I see Telling people to vote YES, I see 100 ads that tell me to vote NO. Take that how you want, and let me know who really wants us to vote Yes and who wants us to vote NO.

Not exactly all we need to know. A lot of politicians are going to look awful bad if it doesn't pass, because their expenditures will continue to put is in a bad position and they won't have many options. So there is an agenda anywhere you look.

[greenwing]

Unless I am mistaken, my understanding is the “Fair Tax” is not exactly what’s on the ballot. What is being asked is whether or not the Illinois Congress is allowed to change the tax system which would also enable them to tax other items eventually (e.g. a retirement tax). This is a much bigger issue than Pritzker’s tax plan alone. I am not sure if the average voter understands this and realizes that there is a very real chance if this passes that it will affect the middle class and not just the top 1%.

[Friend_Of_Haley]

Unless I am mistaken, my understanding is the “Fair Tax” is not exactly what’s on the ballot. What is being asked is whether or not the Illinois Congress is allowed to change the tax system which would also enable them to tax other items eventually (e.g. a retirement tax). This is a much bigger issue than Pritzker’s tax plan alone. I am not sure if the average voter understands this and realizes that there is a very real chance if this passes that it will affect the middle class and not just the top 1%.

They can already tax retirement income. They choose this not to. This would allow them to tax retirement at a lower rate, potentially opening the door to ease into it. But for whatever it's worth AARP supports it and feels we're more likely to see retirement taxed if they can't tax at different rates.

Can they eventually raise taxes on the middle class? You bet. If the ammendment doesn't pass might they increase taxes on everyone come January. You bet! Or they'll cut Services dramatically, including on things like public safety. That may feel like a false choice with pension reform still unresolved, but it's likely the case for better or worse.